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Indiana Law Provoked Outcry; No Breakthrough on Iran Nuclear Deal; Negotiations May Go Into Tomorrow; Sanctions Stand as Sticking Point; Harder Deadline for Deal Is in June; Airline Knew of Co-Pilot's Earlier Depression; Indiana Law Fix. Aired 1:00-1:30p ET

Aired March 31, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:07] JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The Indiana law is much broader. It doesn't just apply to individuals or religious minorities, it applies to, and I'm quoting here, "a partnership, a limited liability company, a corporation, a company, a firm, a society, a joint stock company, or an unincorporated association." So, this, obviously, is a significant expansion of the laws -- of the law, in terms of the way that it would apply. It leaves open the question what sort of religious views a joint stock company may hold. But that's something for lawyers to ponder.

At the same time, it's also worth noting that the law in Indiana doesn't just apply to interactions with the government, it also applies to a private transaction as well -- private transactions as well. Which means that this is a much more open-ended piece of legislation that could reasonably be used to try to justify discriminating against somebody because of who they love. And, again, that is why we've seen such a bipartisan and even nonpolitical outcry against this law. Again, I think that is also what has prompted Indiana officials to reconsider the wisdom of this approach.

OK. Robert (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to ask about the elections in Nigeria. What is the White House's reaction to the election of the new president, President Buhari, and what's the White House assessment of what this new leadership will mean for the fight against Boko Haram?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there, I'm Brianna Keilar in for Wolf Blitzer. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks so much for joining us.

And we're going to start with some breaking news. On the Iran nuclear negotiations, the U.S. State Department and the White House both say that tonight's deadline may come and go with no agreement. So, there are already plans to keep grinding away at the deal after midnight. That is if negotiators feel that progress is being made.

CNN Global Affairs Correspondent Elise Labott has been monitoring the talks as they've gone on in Lausanne, Switzerland. So, Elise, talk about this, characterize this for us. Is this a big setback? And what are the major sticking points that really remain? It seems like they're the same ones that we've been talking about for a while now. Is there a chance that the negotiators will get past them? ELISE LABOTT, GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, I think there's

a desire to. They've been working all night into today. Yesterday, secretary of state, John Kerry, told me personally that there was some what he called light in the negotiations. He said there are still some tricky issues but that they're working hard with an aim towards getting a deal. Everyone is mindful of that deadline today because Congress could impose sanctions against Iran which could scuttle negotiations entirely.

But those sticking points we've been talking about for the past few days still remain. We're talking about what type of advanced research and development on nuclear technology Iran could do in the end years of the deal. We're talking about U.N. sanctions, when they could be lifted. Iran wants them to disappear day one. The international community wants to phase them out and also have flexibility to re- impose them if Iran were to violate the deal.

We were also talking to a member of the Iranian delegation. He said the enrichment is not all set yet. So there are a lot of things. And clearly in the 11th hour, everyone's positions get really hard. Everyone's trying to drive the hardest bargain. But we understand not only will they go into the night, up to the wire, to that 12:00 a.m. deadline but possibly into tomorrow, they don't feel as if tomorrow is a firm deadline -- Brianna.

KEILAR: OK. So, they don't feel that it's a firm deadline. But this is also really one of two deadlines, right? You have today, which may or may not be firm, and then you have June. Tell us about the June deadline.

LABOTT: Well, today's deadline is a self-imposed deadline. What the administration and some of the other parties, even Iran, wanted to have some kind of deadline for themselves on political understandings. What we're talking about today is a political framework deal. And then the longer, comprehensive deal would be negotiated before June with all the technical annexes and such.

So, nobody feels that if the deadline passes today, no one turns into a pumpkin, nothing really happens. The interim deal that's in effect right now will continue and will continue until June. So, they feel if they have a -- need a few more hours a day to get those political understandings, they feel that there has been enough progress here.

And, let's be clear, there have been 100 areas of disagreement when this started about 18 months ago, now they're down to three or four. So, even though they may not be all the way there, there clearly is a lot of progress and they feel it's worth it to keep going -- Brianna.

KEILAR: All right. So, maybe a little wiggle room there on the deadline. Elise Labott for us in Switzerland. Thanks so much.

I want to take a closer look now at what's really at stake in these nuclear negotiations as we're moving toward tonight's deadline for the framework of a deal.

[13:05:03] Joining me now from New York is CNN Global Affairs Analyst Bobby Ghosh. He's also the manage -- managing editor of "Quartz." Here in Washington, I'm joined by CNN Politics Senior Reporter Steven Collinson and Chief National Security Correspondent Jim Sciutto.

So, first to you, Bobby. You know, why don't we look on the bright side of things, tell us about the positive takeout of these developments.

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, as you heard, they started out with a hundred points of disagreement and they're down to three or four. They are the most crucial three or four. I suppose there is a glass half full view to the fact that they are continuing to negotiate into midnight and beyond. It means they're not talking. As long as they're talking, there is a little bit of hope.

I have to say, though, I am a little skeptical. If this deadline doesn't matter, then the June deadline doesn't matter. Then deadlines don't matter at all. Yes, this was a self-imposed deadline but it was one that everybody agreed to. And if they can't hold to that, then why should we assume they'll hold to any other deadline? Yes, they'll keep talking. As long as they keep talking, that's a good thing. But I'm not holding my breath that whether tomorrow morning or the first of July there will be complete resolution of this.

KEILAR: OK. So, let's talk about this, Jim and Steve, because if you have a list of things to do and you're leaving the big things to do last, that you can see there would be some problems with that. These are big sticking points. We have just a matter of hours.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No question. Not just because that's a very reasonable measure of how much they've progressed. If you haven't been able to settle the biggest issues, then that's a serious deficiency in how far you've progressed. You're punting, you know, particularly on sanctions relief. Remember, sanctions are the key western leverage on Iran. If you haven't agreed on that issue, that's a major problem that raises real questions about whether you can agree to that issue in the next three months.

Also keep in mind, that, yes, this is a self-imposed interim deadline. But, remember, it follows an extension of last December. I was there in Vienna when they extended again because they couldn't reach agreement on these issues. You know, this is yet, I think you can call it yet, another extension of negotiations because you can't come to agreement on those key issues. And, you know, that's got to be kept in mind. It shows that they're real -- having real difficult bridging those gaps.

KEILAR: So, the idea that there may be this wiggle room is very negative in your estimation?

STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: Well, I guess if you have a deadline that's the end of June and you have a deadline now, why would you make the big concessions now that you can -- might have to -- might want to hold back until the end of June? I think, in some ways, you could argue that Iran has already been a winner from these talks. It's enhanced its international prestige. It was a pariah state for 30 years after the Islamic revolution. It's cleverly sort of exploited the opportunities geopolitically it's had over the last few years during the course of these talks. It's managed to sort of infiltrate its influence further throughout the Middle East at a time when the United States, perhaps, has been, you know, less interested in cracking down on, you know, Iranian proxies throughout the region, as we've seen in Yemen, for example.

So, for the Iranians, they have much to gain by keeping these talks going. Back home here, President Obama is under a lot of political pressure and he may have more of a stake in getting this deadline -- you know, reaching this deadline with some kind of agreement that can say, look, we've got some progress here.

KEILAR: What do you think about that, Bobby? The idea that Iran has advanced its prestige and also we see Iran popping up as such a significant player with so much momentum in many different situations in the Middle East?

GHOSH: Well, it's certainly enhanced its power in the region. I'm not sure about prestige. But it has also in -- at the negotiating table, it has also made gains. It has -- it has been able to roll back some of the commitments it had previously made. I mean, previously, there was an agreement that uranium would be sent to Russia to be -- to be neutered, if you like, so that there was no longer a threat. And then be sent back as fuel rods. Well, now they're saying, we don't want to do that. And, apparently, judging by the leaks, that's OK with the P five plus one. So, Iran is winning not only off the negotiating table but on the negotiating table as well.

KEILAR: Yes, they're bringing the P five plus one closer to their goal posts which, I think, certainly --

GHOSH: That's right.

KEILAR: -- to the U.S. and other entities would be concerning. Bobby, thank you so much. Steve, Jim, thanks to you both.

We have breaking news in to CNN now. Lufthansa is revealing crucial information on the co-pilot which could reveal why he flew that plane with 150 people on board into a mountainside. We'll have that next for you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:12:48]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

KEILAR: We have breaking news now to tell you about the Germanwings crash investigation. It turns out that the airline's parent company, Lufthansa, now says it knew that co-pilot, Andreas Lubitz, suffered depression during his training. And not just depression, severe depression. They were aware of this. The airline says that after further investigation, they knew that he suffered from a "previous episode of severe depression," that is a quote. As for the motive behind the crash, according to a source, they're looking at whether Andreas Lubitz was afraid of losing his pilot's license because of his medical problems. Two doctors concluded that Lubitz had psychological issues. The source says that Lubitz's girlfriend knew that he was having mental health issues but she, quote, "did not know the extent of the problems." She told investigators that she and Lubitz were working through the issues together and she was optimistic they would be able to do that.

Recovery teams now are having some easier access to the crash site. There is a new path now that is linking the site with a nearby community. It opened up today. And this road will eventually allow victims' family members to reach the area where their loved ones perished.

Also, a German official says the plane's second black box may be buried under shale and gravel at the crash site. Perhaps some hope there. Crews still searching for the flight data recorder. And the hope is that they will be able to collect the remains and personal effects by the end of this week.

I want to get more now on the possible motive behind the crash, the investigations -- investigators, pardon me, are focusing on that Andreas Lubitz was afraid that his medical problems would end his flying career.

I'm joined now by Senior International Correspondent Frederik Pleitgen. He's in Cologne, Germany. So, what are you learning about this now that we know more about what Lufthansa actually knew about Lubitz's past severe depression, Fred?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's interesting, Brianna, because, originally, Lufthansa had come out and said that they knew that he had taken a break from his flight training which he began in 2008. But they said that this was something that was not uncommon.

[13:15:02] Of course, until now, they've also said that they were not aware that he had had any sort of psychological issues.

Now, in a statement that they just put out a couple of minutes ago, they say that they have now, after a new internal investigation, put out additional information, given additional information to the prosecuting office which is the state prosecutor in Dusseldorf.

And I want to read you the line from the press release from Lufthansa because it says, these documents also include the e-mail correspondence of the co-pilot with the flight training pilot school, which, of course, the Lufthansa flight training school. In this correspondence, he informed the flight training school in 2009 in the medical documents he submitted in connection with resuming his flight training about a previous episode of severe depression.

Now, they go on to say that they're fully cooperating with the investigation. But it's clear that he did indeed inform that he - that he, at some point, he had previously suffered from a severe depression. Of course, we know from the state prosecutor that came out with a press conference yesterday that he did have suicidal tendencies in the time between - before he got his pilot license. This could very well be from that time.

Now we're learning that he apparently did inform them. Of course, they said that he didn't inform them about the recent issues that he was having, about the fact that during - or the time frame of when he steered that flight into the mountain that he was once again seeing a doctor for psychological issues, that he had had these vision problems, that his doctor determined were psychosomatic and therefore deemed him unfit to work, which, of course, meaning that he was unfit to fly, that this is not something that he informed the company of. They say, of course, it would have been on him - his responsibility to inform them if, in fact, he was privately seeing another doctor.

It's interesting also when we come back to the whole idea of the motive behind all this, as you said, there are sources close to the investigation that we've contacted that say one of the main motives that they're investigating right now is the fact that he might have been afraid to lose his fit-to-fly certification if it came out that he was having these issues once again. And the French investigators have also come out and say they, of course, have a very broad, a very wide investigation going on. That they say the deliberate act of someone with psychological problems could be one of the main motives.

But that they're also looking at things that could have been key in all of this, that could have also contributed to the fact that this flight went down. One of them is the fact that the captain was not able to get back into the cockpit, trying to get in there, of course, because of the cockpit door, because of the locking mechanism. That's something - a contribution they're looking at. And then also, which is interesting, the fact that psychological patterns were not discovered. That, of course, goes back to what we're seeing right now, that he did have a history of psychological problems that apparently now we know the company knew about, Brianna.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Fred Pleitgen in Cologne, thank you so much.

Let's talk more about this now with our expert panel. We have Les Abend, he's a CNN aviation analyst and the contributing editor for "Flight" magazine. He's also a pilot. He's with us from New York. And then we have clinical psychologist Ramani Durvasula joining me now from Los Angeles.

So I want to ask both of you to respond to this, Les, you first. This news that Lufthansa actually knew about his depression in 2009, that he had come from training in - or from his pause in training it looks like into the program. And he had, it appears maybe, self-reported, is that what you - what you would expect, self-reported that he'd had this episode?

LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, I mean, this is very disturbing to me because Lufthansa has this - this is a - part of the screening process. They have a farm where they farm pilots. They have to qualify. They go through a rigorous screening process and then on into the training aspect.

So if they were under their supervision at that point in time and he had these issues, in my airline, we had to go through our screening process, release medical health professionals that we had seen over the past so many years. We had to go all the way back to our grandparents. So if they discovered a problem, I was no longer competitive for that particular airline as far as they were concerned. And now this man has got the issue right during the training program. That's something that's really sorely missed.

And then it's being discussed that he felt he was in a jeopardy position with reference to his career. Well, we're dealing with an alter ego airline from Lufthansa. This is a low-cost carrier. Probably pays a lot less. It's in conflict with Lufthansa's union. So we're getting less-experienced people and probably -

KEILAR: But we're actually told, Les, that - I've heard, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the pay was the same, that these were Lufthansa pilots where the pay was the same. But, I mean, that - that might be inaccurate.

[13:19:55] ABEND: It might be inaccurate. And I can't confirm it either. But, you know, the bottom - maybe he didn't have the medical benefits that would allow him time to get treatment for his illness if indeed this was a treatable illness. But, you know, that could also factor into this - this young man's tragic end and peoples.

KEILAR: Yes. So, Ramani, you look at this - I guess the question is, if the airline knew that Lubitz had had an episode of severe depression, let's just talk about pilots in general. Les is saying that that would be a disqualifying factor here domestically. But, I mean, do you think that it necessarily is or it's an indicator that someone would do something like this?

RAMANI DURVASULA, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I don't think it necessarily should be. I think we should be very careful at this point at completely blasting people who are suffering with depression because I think it's something that has to be screened more thoroughly. And then, more importantly, it needs to be monitored. Every person with depression has a different story of their illness. Some of the symptoms may be similar. But you want to know things like, how do they cope with stress? Behaviorally, what has their history been? You really want to dig deeper. If you see the indicator that they do have depression, then you want to dig deeper and see if there's anything in their history that may disqualify them specifically from being a pilot. I don't think depression by itself is a blanket category that would disqualify someone from a profession such as being a pilot.

KEILAR: OK, and can we talk about something that just has really been on my mind. This idea, if this is the motive, Ramani, to you first, if Lubitz was worried about losing his being fit to fly, I mean it doesn't seem that the solution to that would be to crash a plane. I mean that doesn't seem rational. So what does - what does that tell us about what he may have been suffering, even other than just a severe depression? DURVASULA: I think where we want to be careful - again, it's like an

onion, you're peeling it back, layers upon layers. The bottom line here is, we have an intersection of a stressor, a medical stressor, a standing mental illness in depression. But we also need to know more about his personality, or really how he organizes the world and organizes the stressor. He may very well have perceived this in a grandiose way, that I'm going to be a pilot, nothing's going to stop me. and if something does, he simply did not have the coping resources to manage that and he was going to go down in a blaze of glory. That's a dynamic we sometimes see in mass killers.

We are trying to connect the dots when we don't yet quite have enough dots.

KEILAR: Yes.

DURVASULA: But I do think that we have to look at how all of these variables line up. It's not just the depression. I think that there are a lot of variable that came into this tragic story. And that's where it's getting complicated.

KEILAR: That's a really good point. And, you know, I want to talk, Les, because you hear Ramani being concerned, and a lot of people have voiced this concern, that the idea that people who have depression could be stigmatized in this case. But do you think that in the case of flying where a pilot does have in their hands the lives of so many people that there should be more stringent oversight for people than maybe in other areas of employment?

ABEND: Well, it's a great question, Brianna. And just to sort of backtrack a little what the doctor was saying. We're looking at the depression more from the aspect of, you know, are we stigmatizing this individual? That's not my thing. My thing was the screening. It's black and white for me. We had a competitive individual that - or an individual who had to compete with other applicants through the screening process. It would seem to me, if I was the airline, I'd want to pick somebody with less issues.

But in answer to your question, I think we need to refine some of the data with reference to the screening process a little bit more. Like the doctor mentions, this is - it's an onion, you need to peel it back. We need to ask the proper questions. Right at the screening moment before we get that pilot in the seat, we have pilots that fly with the same stressors has other occupations. Police, same thing. Doctors, the same thing. So depression in and of itself, my understanding, is it's treatable and we can now, with the FAA relaxed rules, have medication for that.

KEILAR: Yes.

ABEND: And still prove our worth and our safety to our passengers. But I think the doctor will agree with me, I think we went beyond that with this young man.

KEILAR: Yes, that maybe some more vigilance was need. Les Abend, thank you so much. Ramani Durvasula, really appreciate you being with us as well.

Indiana's governor is vowing to fix the law that has led critics to vilify him and his state. But will that fix this controversy? We'll be looking at what he's promising and also whether it's going to work.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:28:08] KEILAR: Indiana Governor Mike Pence is doing some damage control over the state's new religious freedom law. It's a law that critics say allows businesses to discriminate against gays in the name of religion. Pence denies that and he spoke out a short time ago for quite some time and he pledged to fix the controversial law to make its true intentions clear. That's basically what he said.

Let's bring in Rosa Flores. She is in Indianapolis.

So I guess the question, Flora (ph), is, he's talking about fixing this law, but what does he mean by that? Did he explain himself?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Brianna, he did not present the silver bullet. What he did say is that he's asking lawmakers to have something for him on his desk by the end of the week. Let's not forget, this is on the heels of the final four and so focus is being shifted from the game to the Republican game plan to fix the mess that they're in. There's a huge perception issue at this point in time, bringing the governor again in front of reporters to explain himself. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: After much reflection and in consultation with leadership of the general assembly, I've come to the conclusion that it would be helpful to move legislation this week that makes it clear that this law does not give businesses a right to deny services to anyone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES: (INAUDIBLE) ago - and Democrats responding just moments ago, Brianna, and adamant about repealing this law. That's what the Democrats want. And even though Republicans have control of the chamber, I think it's safe to say the Democrats have more control over the message with the overwhelming support coming in from around the country.

[13:30:03] Brianna.

KEILAR: Sure. No, you're definitely hearing that. But also let's talk about some of the rift between the governor and some Republicans as well.