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Police Officers Involved in Gray's Death Arrested, Charged; Baltimore City Councilman Responds. Aired 1:30-2p ET
Aired May 01, 2015 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:30:00] BRANDON SCOTT, BALTIMORE CITY COUNCILMAN: We know the legal process, the wheels of justice and how there will be emotions and things going forward. We should respect in the city. What folks have to do, understand this is not justice or injustice. The folks angry or unhappy come to the middle and realize this is the infancy stages of the process. The process will play itself out. It is not the place for finality.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: You said lawyers have to be lawyers. Leaders have to be leaders --
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: -- which means people like you. What's -- what are you going to do now to talk to the people in this community, people who say, that the system has been rigged against them, to tell them that they need to trust now in this process as it moves forward?
SCOTT: What I do is what I've always been doing. This week, amped up my school visits to talk to the young kids to talk about this process and continue to be vigilant and active and telling them the system is the system and trust the system. And, yes, there are things in our system that has to be changed but that change is not going to come overnight, that change is going to take policy change, that change is going to take citizen involvement, pressure in things that are beyond the powers of city hall. That's something in our city we have to understand. And actually, what needs to be talked about in this country is that these issues are a nationwide and we have to start talking about it at a national level and not at a city or state level. This is something impacting the entire United States of America, rural and cities across our country.
BERMAN: Councilman, I'll let you get back out there with your constituents. It's will be a busy afternoon and I think a peaceful afternoon. We've seen peace on the streets.
Thank you for being with us.
SCOTT: Thank you.
BERMAN: Wolf?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, John, stand by.
Our own Don Lemon had an interview with the other passenger in the police van, the other individual who was arrested. We're going to hear what that person had to say to Don Lemon.
We'll take a quick break and much more right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:35:00] BLITZER: I want to go to our CNN anchor, Don Lemon. He's been in Baltimore all week for us.
Don, you just had two, not one, but two important interviews. First, the passenger who was in that police van together with Freddie Gray, tell us what that passenger told you.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: He told us a lot, Wolf. I spoke to him yesterday, but here's the thing. The information from the police department is a bit nebulous and sketchy so the information is showing that this young man -- his name, Donta Allen -- is still in custody. Well, he's not. He told me yesterday on the morning of the arrest he was picked up, but picked up after Freddie Gray. He said he was walking out of a convenience store out of a basement of a building and he said the officers came over and, according to him, he said they were harassing him. They did pick him up and when they -- he had marijuana on him and they took him and put him in the back of the van. He's telling me, Wolf, "I didn't know anybody was in there. I heard bumping around." Not until he got out of the van and he says, according to him, he heard them saying, Man, we really, you know, got the best of him and knocked him around a little bit and they weren't sure if he had any vitals. He goes into the police station and saying the officers saying, oh, finally, he has a pulse and he's breathing now.
But here's a part of our conversation. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So you're in the back of the van. Now, the story is, according to a newspaper report, "The Washington Post," that there was screaming in the van, that you said that he was intentionally screaming and hurting himself.
DONTA ALLEN, WAS IN POLICE VAN WITH FREDDIE GRAY: Untrue.
LEMON: OK.
ALLEN: Very, very, very untrue. Very untrue.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLEN: I never talked to no investigators. I never talked to nobody. I got my own personal lawyer who I haven't talked to all day because of the madness going on. The only person that I talked to was homicide and the exact same story I'm telling you all, I told them.
LEMON: There's a relative of one of the officers involved saying that he was irate and screaming and moving around in the back of the van.
ALLEN: While I was back there?
LEMON: While you were back there.
ALLEN: Absolutely --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: At least during part of the ride. I'm not sure if you were back there --
ALLEN: Absolutely untrue.
LEMON: Not true?
ALLEN: Not true.
LEMON: You never heard him?
ALLEN: Never heard him. I heard -- the only thing I heard was a little banging, like he -- I thought someone was over there banging their head or something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He's saying he was on one side of the van, Freddie Gray on the other side of the van. Wolf he also says he knows Freddie Gray from around the neighborhood. He didn't know his last name. He just knew him as Freddie. But in the course of him being taken in, he heard him mention his name and saying, again, they were concerned about whether he had vital signs or pulse and/or whether he was breathing. And he says he believes, because of what was happening with Freddie Gray, that he -- they let him go and that's how that was a mix up in the system. That was the reason we couldn't confirm it last night because it kept showing that he's still in jail. He's not in jail. He said he was never charged, there was never any paperwork. They talked to him for a while and let him go. The all process took maybe a couple hours. An interesting conversation with him and assessment of what happened from him.
BLITZER: Very interesting, indeed. I know you had a separate conversation with Marilyn Mosby, the states attorney.
Stand by for a minute. I want to debrief you on that as well.
But get quick reaction from Tom Fuentes, our CNN law enforcement analyst and former assistant director of the FBI.
You heard what this Donta Allen just told, the sound, the exchange that Donta Allen just had with Don Lemon. Your reaction?
TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: This shows why we're suspicious of leaks when they come out in the media, whether newspaper or whoever that this happened, that happened, a witness says this, a witness saw that. We just don't know these things and we've learned so much more today than we knew before, and especially much of it contradicts witness statements. BLITZER: You heard Marilyn Mosby, the states attorney, flatly
say that the injuries that caused Freddie Gray's death occurred while he was inside the van, not necessarily before he got into the van. That's significant.
FUENTES: It's very significant but what's significant to me, you have a lieutenant on the scene making the false arrest in the first place or overseeing the false imprisonment. Charges have been brought against that lieutenant and the other officers there, because the knife was not illegal. So, yes, they had a right to run after Freddie, stop him, check him out, but that's it. When they find the knife is perfectly legal and he has no contraband, it's time to say good-bye to him, and they didn't.
[13:40:13] BLITZER: She says it was a false arrest to begin with. The whole thing began --
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: with a false arrest, according to the states attorney.
All right. I'll go back to Don Lemon in a moment. He sat down and had an interview with Marilyn Mosby, the states attorney. We'll hear what she has to say to Don.
We'll take a break and more of the breaking news after this.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: I want to quickly go back to Don Lemon at city hall in Baltimore.
Don, you had a major interview a little while ago with Marilyn Mosby the states attorney who filed these charges against the six Baltimore police officers. What did she tell you?
LEMON: First of all, her office told me I have to say this, they explained the process before I get into our interview and what they said, they said it's not an indictment yet, Wolf, they have to go before the grand jury to be indicted, they have not been indicted yet but have 30 days to indict after the preliminary hearing.
I'm checking -- I know the mayor said five of the six were in custody. I'm double checking that for us. And let me explain the process here. It says what they do is the sheriff, the sheriff office will serve the papers and then they turn themselves in or they're arrested. And then they go before the court commissioner and then the court commissioner sets the bail and approves the bail, booked and then they have the opportunity to post bail. It's a quick process but, again, an indictment doesn't happen until after they go before the grand jury.
So I spoke to her about the police association wanting to have a special prosecutor appointed. She said that doesn't make any sense to her and they should have every confidence in her office. I asked her about the circumstances surrounding the death of Freddie Gray. I said, to have all of those officers to find them at least think that they're guilty in some way of the death of Freddie Gray she must be very confident. She said, you do not file charges like that if you are not confident in your investigation.
She would not go into specifics about the investigation but she did talk as much about it as she could. Here she is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[13:45:] MARILYN MOSBY, MARYLAND STATES ATTORNEY: Well, I think it gives me a well-rounded perspective. I come from five generations of police officers, so law enforcement is instilled. I understand the time, the commitment, the sacrifice that these police officers make, time away from their families on a day-to-day basis, risking their lives for the betterment of our communities. But at the same time, recognizing that these officers are making those sacrifices -- and I'm not saying in particularly with this case -- those officers usurp their authority, you have to hold them accountability because it does a disservice to the hard working police officers. It's about applying justice fairly and equally to those with or without a badge.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: As you know, she comes from a law enforcement family, several of her uncles, her gland father, were in law enforcement. She had a cousin who was killed, mistaken identity in 1994, thought that her cousin was a drug dealer. Turns out her cousin was not a drug dealer. And that was a reason that she became a prosecutor. So she's very focused on this case. I asked if she felt any sort of special pressure to get things done quickly because of the focus around the country and really around the world and because she felt if she's felt any special pressure because she's so young, the youngest prosecutor in any larger city. She said, no, I don't feel any pressure at all on this. The only pressure that I feel is to -- that everyone be treated fairly in the process to get to the truth and get justice either way to get justice for Freddie Gray or for the officers. She didn't want to indictment them but she says she believes her information is pretty solid, otherwise, she would not have filed charges against the officers.
BLITZER: Yeah. Obviously, she's convinced of her information.
Don Lemon, excellent work today. The interviews will air in full later tonight, 10:00 p.m. on Don's program, reporting from Baltimore.
Let's get a quick reaction to what we heard from Marc Morial, the president of the National Urban League.
She's young this prosecutor, but she's tough, isn't she?
MARC MORIAL, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL URBAN LEAGUE: She's my champion. I was in my mid 30s when I began my service as mayor, but she's obviously I think did well in her first, if you will, appearance on the stage because we haven't senior heard much of her. Most of the focus has been on the mayor, the police commissioner, governor and protests and now she comes today with a strong not only statement, but strong action, in bringing charges against all of the officers. And, of course, if I were surprised by anything, it may have been all the officers now face charges. She went to the very essence, and the very essence was there was no probable cause to detain Mr. Gray and put him into that police van. She did an excellent job and measured job, and we look forward to, if you will, watching this as it proceeds.
BLITZER: Now she has a major challenge in getting those charges to stick before a jury. And we'll see what happens in the weeks and months to come.
Marc Morial, as usual --
MORIAL: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: thank you very much.
Up next, how will Baltimore and the country respond to the breaking news? Back to Baltimore when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:52:25] BLITZER: More now on the breaking news this hour, six police officers in Baltimore now facing charges in the death of Freddie Gray. The states attorney says her decision was based on the autopsy results showing how Gray died.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARILYN MOSBY, MARYLAND STATES ATTORNEY: The manner of death deemed a homicide by the Maryland state medical examiner is believed to be the result of a fatal injury that occurred while Mr. Gray was unrestrained by a seat belt in the custody of the Baltimore Police Department wagon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Dr. Bill is the chief of pathology at Memorial Hospital, the medical examiner in Burlington County, New Jersey. He is joining us from Philadelphia.
Dr., thank you very much for joining us.
As you heard, the states attorney says Freddie Gray was injured in the hand because he was handcuffed, shackled, and not wearing a seat belt as required. Explain how the injury that eventually caused his death may have happened.
DR. BILL MANION, CHIEF OF PATHOLOGY, MEMORIAL HOSPITAL & MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NEW JERSEY: Well, normally, if a spinal cord injury causes immediate death, it's going to be up in the cervical area. That'll cause immediate death at that area or above. This injury must be below, either low cervical, upper thoracic area. There may have been complications from it. Cord swelling. He may have gotten pneumonia while in the hospital. If he hadn't had the injury, he wouldn't have died. So the medical examiner -- ultimately, this was a major injury and caused his death a week after he was arrested.
BLITZER: So this medical examiner's report is crucial in this case, right?
MANION: Absolutely. And the medical examiner looked at hospital records. I'm certain we have C.T.s and x-rays of his injuries when he was admit and followed the hospital course. Unfortunately, the injury later led to his death.
BLITZER: The states attorney says officers repeatedly ignored Gray's request for medical attention. How much of a contributing factor was that in his death?
MANION: Well, it may be significant because if he had that injury -- they also mentioned something -- some injury to his voice box or larynx. If he wasn't getting enough oxygen, that could have contributed to brain injury. Of course, brain injury, brain swelling, you can only have brain hypoxia for several minutes before you can get permanent injury. We'll have to get the hospital records and really analyze exactly what happened.
BLITZER: Most of that information in that medical examiner's report was based on the autopsy, right?
MANION: The autopsy and review of the hospital records, absolutely, yes.
BLITZER: All right. Doctor Manion, thank you very much.
Dr. Bill Manion, chief of pathology, Memorial Hospital in Burlington County.
We want to get some more reaction now to what is going on. Joining us from Los Angeles is Michael Skolnik, editor-in-chief for globalgrind.com.
First, Michael, I know you're passionate about these issues. Your reaction to the charges now going up against these six police officers.
[13:55:17] MICHAEL SKOLNIK, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, GLOBALGRIND.COM: Well, I think the state attorney did the right thing. I think she did it quickly and bravely and today came out with charges against six of the officers. I think it calms a lot of things down. As the Baltimore police was leaking horrible information and misinformation and simply lies out to the media, finally we get some basis of the truth. I thought her press conference today laid it out methodically and very intently. We look forward to the next 30 days of this process to actually get an indictment before a grand jury.
BLITZER: Let's talk bigger picture. The focus on Baltimore as a community, moving forward, what do you believe needs to be done?
SKOLNIK: I think there has been -- one thing I want to give attorneys credit for an uplift, the words of the state attorney today, she said, as young people, now is our time. She even referenced that she was listening to the chants of "no justice, no peace." there are folks around this country from Los Angeles, the founders of lack lives matter, and folks in Ferguson who have been marching for hundreds and hundreds of days, New York justice league in New York and 300 men and folks all around this country, mostly black and Brown young people, who have been peacefully protesting and fighting for justice and finally for white people like you and me, it's hard to understand that these things are happening on a regular basis in black and Brown communities. We saw Walter Scott get killed in a videotape in South Carolina just a month ago. This country was outraged, white, black, Latino and everything in between. With this, many of us had doubts. Why did they stop him? Did he do anything wrong? Finally we're getting some sense of the truth. This man did nothing wrong. He was illegally stopped. If it happened to him, it happened to hundreds, probably thousands across this country.
BLITZER: It's a really sad situation because, as Elijah Cummings, the congressman who represents this district in Baltimore, he said, if it can happen in Baltimore, it can happen any place. I assume you agree.
SKOLNIK: There's nothing unique, sadly, about Ferguson or Baltimore or New York. We have a system of policing that's gone horribly wrong. I'm not saying it's one bad apple or one bad seed or one bad cop but a system of policing that's gone after -- raged a war against black and Brown America that we've coded as the war on drugs. It failed miserably. We're stopping people for walking while black or selling while black or selling loose-seed cigarettes and choking them to death. We're stopping people for these quality of life broken window policies that are breaking spines and killing people.
BLITZER: You think these protests are going to be quiet through the weekend?
SKOLNIK: Well, look, I'm a proud American. I believe strongly that our first amendment right is our most powerful one. That gives people the right to peacefully protest and grieve against our government. I certainly hope and believe that young people across this country, they have led this movement, this is a full movement, and I hope they continue to lead and march and continue to exercise that first amendment right. I expect nothing but peaceful protests around this country.
But I'll say this, Wolf. The police have much more of control of how these protests happen because they are the ones -- I was in New York two nights ago. You saw the reaction in Baltimore. If they come with peace, these things will be peaceful. If they come ready to fight, if they come with riot gear, ready to hit these kids, these things might get out of control. The police have a tremendous amount of power of how these things turn out. They have to be peaceful as well.
BLITZER: What recommendation do you have, not just for African- Americans, but for all Americans right now? What do we all need to start thinking about and doing?
SKOLNIK: Well, I think, Wolf, for all Americans in this country, we have to come to the realization that black lives matter. We recognize of course all lives matter. That's been said for 250 years in this country. Specifically, black lives matter. Young people of color, especially black young men and black young women -- just two weeks ago, charges were dropped in another case. We don't believe these stories are truthful. As we have new technologies and videotapes and camera phones and we see things with our own eyes, we're finally believing that they're actually telling us the truth. So all of us have to come together and uplift the solutions to these problems. We have to transform and make a 21st century police force in every city, every mayor in this country should be looking at their police force and how can they make a better police force a more productive police force, a police force that protects and serves the community, not just protects the community, and gets rid of these archaic laws that are locking people up for no apparent reason and leading to officers abusing their power and ultimately killing people.
BLITZER: All right. Michael Skolnik, editor-and-chief of globalgrind.com, thank you for joining us.
SKOLNIK: Thank you.
[14:00:05] BLITZER: That's it for me. I'll be back 5:00 p.m. eastern in "The Situation Room."
Brooke Baldwin is in Baltimore. She picks CNN's special coverage right now.
