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Gunmen Opened First With Assault Weapons; Gunmen Killed At Muhammad Cartoon Contest; Gunman Tweeted Before Shooting; Bill Clinton Strongly Defends Foundation; Gunmen Killed at Cartoon Contest; Event Organizer Speaks Out. Aired 1-1:30p ET.

Aired May 04, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 p.m. in London, 8:00 p.m. in Jerusalem, 2:00 a.m. Tuesday in Pyongyang. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us. ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BLITZER: We start with breaking news. The investigation into a shooting in Texas which echos past attacks in Paris and Denmark. This shooting targeted a contest for cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad. The two gunmen were killed after opening fire in front of the event.

And this just in, the first picture of one of the gunmen, Elton Simpson. There he is. We're learning more about him and past terror accusations. Just a little while ago we heard from the police about the attack and the investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE HARN, SPOKESMAN, GARLAND POLICE DEPARTMENT: Both of them had assault rifles, came around the back of the car and started shooting at the police car. The police officer in that car began returning fire and struck both men taking them down. Obviously, they were there to shoot people. We will continue to investigate.

This is not going to be a real fast investigation. We've got our suspects. We continue to monitor social media and other -- gather other intel to make sure that we're not getting any more -- or any threats. So, we don't know their intent other than we know that they were willing to pull up and start shooting on police.

We think their strategy was to get to the event center, into the event center. And they were not able to get past that outer perimeter that we had set up which was part of that security.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Our Ed Lavandera is following the events in Garland, Texas. That's just outside Dallas. And in New York, our Rosa Flores has been watching what's going on.

Ed, did the police say whether there was a specific threat made against the event? ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They didn't mention -- they haven't

mentioned anything about a specific threat. And we asked about one of the suspects who's been named, a man by the name of Elton Simpson, if that's a name or a picture that had been put on the radar. The authorities here in Garland saying not that they were aware of. But they say that the security plans had been put into place several months ago and that the event organizers were -- had to pay an extra $10,000 to beef up security teams which also included a SWAT team in the back of the building.

And, Wolf, as you look back over here at the scene just beyond these cars, less than a hundred yards away from where we're standing here, is that perimeter where the car -- the two suspects were pulled out. It was two officers in a car monitoring who was coming and going from the civic center that first confronted these two gunmen and that is where the shooting took place. So, they didn't even make it into the parking lot of the civic center.

And as you heard the officers here in Garland describe it, that was part of the security plan that was put into place several months ago as this event was being planned and prepared for here in the city of Garland.

BLITZER: Rosa, what do we know about the two gunmen?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Wolf, authorities releasing the name of one gunman, Elton Simpson is his name. And we're learning more about him, about his background, not only from authorities but social media. We should add that we've learned that he is a known ISIS sympathizer and that's because he has links to known ISIS members on social media.

Now, the FBI had kept tabs on this man. They were monitoring him. And we also know from court documents that he was arrested, indicted and found guilty of false statements to agents and this was for international and domestic terrorism.

But I want to start off, Wolf, specifically with a tweet that he sent out two hours before this attack. Now, take a look at this tweet. I'm going to read it in part. It says, may Allah accept us as Mujahideen. Now, here's what stands out, Wolf. Shortly after that, this known ISIS member retweeted that tweet and then also sent out another tweet. I want to read that to you, very telling and chilling. This is, quote, "The brothers in Texas may have had no experience in shooting, but they was quick to defend the honor of the prophet, Muhammad.

And he sent out a slew of other tweets. We're not going to share all of those with you, Wolf, but they're along the same lines, praising what was done and also with the hash tag, Attack Texas or Texas Attack.

Now, the other thing, the FBI had already been monitoring them. We know that the FBI went out to his apartment in Phoenix, scoured that apartment, gathered evidence, as they're trying to gather more clues. [13:05:00] Here's what we do know from court documents. Now, this is from an indictment out of Arizona. I want to read you an excerpt from this. It says, the defendant falsely stated to special agents of the FBI that he had not discussed traveling to Somalia when, in fact, the defendant had discussed with others, on or about May 29, 2009 and thereafter, traveling to Somalia for the purpose of engaging in violent jihad.

Again, all of these tidbits that our producers have been gathering, Wolf, telling us a little bit about his background and a little bit of what happened just before that attack -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And we're just learning from some of his friends at that mosque in Phoenix where he attended that mosque, he went by the name of Ebrahim (ph), and he was a convert to Islam.

Guys, don't go too far away.

The event in Texas brought two controversial figures together. First is Pamela Geller. She's the president of an organization called the American Freedom Defense Initiative which is linked to an affiliate called Stomp the Islamization of America. They led a charged protest against the building of a mosque near the site of the World Trade Center.

The keynote speaker at last night's event outside of Dallas was controversial, Dutch politician Geert Wilders. He has gained notoriety for his own anti-Muslim campaign and has called for a ban on the Koran. He's on an Al Qaeda hit list, by the way.

Let's talk more what's going on, the attack and the gunmen who have now been identified tweeted about the attack just before this shooting. Joining us from London the CNN Terrorism Analyst Paul Cruickshank. Here in Washington, Tom Fuentes, our Law Enforcement Analyst and former FBI assistant director.

Paul, this is just the latest shooting related to cartoons depicting the prophet, Muhammad, right?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, Wolf, that's absolutely right. We obviously had those terrible scenes in Paris in January when two gunmen who trained with Al Qaeda in Yemen carried out that attack on the "Charlie Hebdo" satirical magazine. Then, the next month in February, we had another gunman. This time in Copenhagen, launching an attack on an event at which the Swedish cartoonist, Lars Vilks, was attending.

Now, in the Danish attack, the gunmen actually pledged loyalty to Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS, just before launching the attack. And it appears exactly the same thing happened this time around with the gunmen, Simpson, declaring allegiance to the commander of the faithful. In other words, Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS.

And also, just before the attack, asking his Twitter followers to follow a British ISIS fighter in Syria who subsequently put out a whole lot of propaganda tweets about the attacks. So, this appears to be an ISIS-inspired attack in the United States. The second ISIS inspired attack we've seen in America off that hatched attack against the NYPD in New York in October.

BLITZER: Tom Fuentes, the FBI knew of this guy, right? They had been monitoring him. He was out on probation. So, was there some sort of failure here? Something was missing?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORNCEMENT ANALYST: No, Wolf. You know, he's one of thousands of people. He's been through the system. He got three years' probation in 2011 to 2014 for his statements, his sympathies with ISIS, that type of thing. And the FBI can't follow that. There's hundreds of thousands of these guys. As the director of the FBI said, investigations in all 50 states and there's not enough resources to do that.

BLITZER: But an hour or so before the attack, as we just heard, Rosa Flores reported, he tweeted, may Allah accept us as Mujahideen and used the hash tag, Texas Attack.

FUENTES: That's right. And if they had that at that time and could've dispatched more people down there, fine. However, credit the Garland Police Department for the tremendous security plan they put into place. And one thing that's different from the attacks that Paul Cruickshank talked about. When you have jihadists with automatic weapons going against police officers with handguns. Police officers were killed in Paris when that happened. They were killed in Copenhagen when that happened. Here, you have an attack, similar circumstance. Once officer with a handgun takes on two guys with automatic weapons and defeats them. I think it's outstanding credit to the department, their plan and the training of their officers to be able to have that happen.

BLITZER: I assume counterterrorism analysts in the United States and, indeed, around the world are now going to be looking for more information about these two gunmen, right?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, they are. And a lot is known about Simpson because between 2006 and 2010, the FBI launched a full-year sting investigation into him which resulted him in being convicted for lying to the FBI. And during the course of that investigation, he talked on tape to an informant about wanting to go and fight in Somalia with the terrorist group Al Shabaab.

[13:10:02] So, someone well known to authorities. The big question will be, what do they know about him in the years after he got out of jail? And what -- who is the other accomplice? We really know nothing about him publicly yet, at this point -- Wolf.

BLITZER: So, the FBI is the lead investigative agency right now. What will they be looking for?

FUENTES: Well, because it is terrorism, that makes them the lead. And what they're going to be looking for, in particular, is any connections that they -- these two have, specifically to others, that might carry on a similar attack right now, later, tomorrow. You know, and that's a key to this thing.

So, they'll be -- in addition to the forensic investigation, in the parking lot as you see right now, they're going to be subpoenaing the records, the Internet service provider records of e-mails they sent, scouring the social media as is going on right now, telephones, who they've called, where they've been, who they talked to. Because, after all, their apartment is in Phoenix and they traveled a thousand miles to Garland, Texas to carry out this attack. So, are there others involved? Is another attack possible soon? That's what they're looking at.

BLITZER: All Right. So, we'll learn the identity of the second gunman fairly soon, right?

FUENTES: Yes, they probably already have that. But, yes, because it's the roommate.

BLITZER: They haven't -- they haven't released that yet.

FUENTES: It's his roommate.

BLITZER: All right, Tom Fuentes, Paul Cruickshank. Guys, thanks very much.

We'll have much more on the Texas cartoon contest shootings ahead, including a look at the narrow line between free speech and hate speech here in the United States.

Also ahead, a very different story. Bill Clinton, the former president, strongly defending the Clinton Foundation and his highly paid speeches in a testy exchange saying he has to pay the bills. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Let's get back to the breaking news and our top story, the investigation into a shooting in Texas. We're joined now by the mayor of Garland, Texas where the shooting took place.

[13:15:02] Mayor Douglas Athas is joining us on the phone.

Mayor, thanks very much for joining us. What can you tell us, first of all, about these two gunmen?

DOUGLAS ATHAS, MAYOR OF GARLAND, TEXAS (via telephone): We really don't have very much information right now from the Garland perspective. Obviously we're not conducting that part of the investigation. I'm sure that you've had reports from the FBI and others and I can't add to what you're already hearing.

BLITZER: Are you ready, mayor, to call this a terror attack?

ATHAS: No, we don't have that indication right now. I certainly wouldn't do that prematurely. Again, the last time I checked, the suspects hadn't even been moved, so they haven't been fingerprinted or anything else. We just don't have that information. It would be too early to make those speculations.

BLITZER: We know one of the suspects, Elton Simpson, has been identified, a convert to Islam from Phoenix. Do you know the name of the second gunman?

ATHAS: No. Like I said, we're not - we're not actually looking at that part of the investigation. We're following it. That's more or less in the FBI's arena right now.

BLITZER: Take us behind the scenes, mayor, the decision to allow this event - this event showing cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed to take place in Garland. Was that controversial? Was it just simply going forward? Because you know the history of these kinds of - these kinds of events.

ATHAS: Well, I - certainly we all have heard about different events around the world that were similar to this and there's been some dramatic events around that. This one was a minor event. It wasn't many people scheduled to be there. I think if the media had not done such a job of advertising it, then very few people would have even known about it. We just took the precautions of trying to make sure we protected our citizens and the participants. We set up a perimeter around the event and these two gunmen didn't even break the perimeter.

BLITZER: Was there any controversy at all surrounding giving a license for this organization to host an event of this nature?

ATHAS: Well, we didn't give them a license. They rented out space in the convention center. It's not - it's the school district's convention center, not the city's. It's not something the city regulates. The school district, I'm sure, will be looking at their policies and perhaps changing that. But we, as a community, support people's right to assemble, our freedom of speech, and if it comes to that, freedom of religion. We had no prior information that there were - of anything to - any prior threats. So we did not know that this was coming, but we were well prepared, whatever should happen.

BLITZER: Obviously you had very good security at that perimeter. These two gunmen couldn't get through there and they wound up losing their own lives. I guess the bottom line question, if an event like this is organized in Garland, Texas, again, work you allow it to take place?

ATHAS: We'd have to look at that. It's too early to start speculating on those things. This is something that actually had absolutely nothing to do with Garland. It was organized by a group not from Garland, had very little Garland or even Texas participation. It just - it's not a part of our community. It was just something that was brought to our community and happened here.

BLITZER: Well, Douglas Athas is the mayor of Garland, Texas. Mayor, we'll stay in close touch with you. Thank you very much for joining us. That police officer who shot and killed these two gunmen, obviously, I consider - a lot of people I'm sure in your community consider him a hero, right?

ATHAS: He was doing his job and we - all of our police officers are heroes and he stepped forward and proved why they are.

BLITZER: He certainly did. All right, thanks very much, Mayor Douglas Athas of Garland, Texas.

Up next, the discussion of the blurred line here in the United States between hate speech and free speech. Even the White House is now weighing in. Our senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is standing by.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:22:22] BLITZER: Following the shootings at the Mohammed cartoon even in Garland, Texas, just outside of Dallas, there is a debate emerging here in the United States over what exactly constitutes free speech. Earlier today, aboard Air Force One, the White House press secretary, Josh Earnest, made this statement. Let me quote him. "I will repeat a principle you have heard from me before - there's no act of expression, even if it's offensive, that justifies an act of violence. We have seen extremists try to use expression they consider offensive to commit violence in this country and around the world - and in line with the president there is no form of expression that justifies an act of violence." That from Josh Earnest, the White House press secretary.

Pamela Geller organized the "Draw Mohammed" event, as it was called in Texas, and talked about the issue of free speech earlier today on CNN's "New Day."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA GELLER, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN FREEDOM DEFENSE INITIATIVE: The First Amendment, not the eighth, not the tenth, but the first, protects all speech, not just ideas that we like, but even core political speech, ideas that we don't like, because who would decide what's good and what's forbidden, the Islamic State, the government? Inoffensive speech, Alisyn, needs no protection. But in a plouristic (ph) society, you have offensive speech. You have ideas, you have an exchange of ideas. You don't shut down a discussion because I'm offended.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Let's bring in our senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

So would you agree that the First Amendment protects all speech, including very offensive hate speech?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, it does. I mean it's really as simple as that, at least in the political realm. You know, what Pamela Geller said was correct, that the First Amendment is designed so that there is no limits on political speech. However, the First Amendment doesn't give people good judgment, doesn't spare people from provocation. So, you know, you can argue that Pamela Geller was clearly provoking and looking to be offensive and perhaps maybe shouldn't have done it, but she had an absolute right to do it and that's really the core of the First Amendment. BLITZER: But as you know, there are limits on free speech and the

Supreme Court has a ruled, for example, you can't cry out fire in a crowded theater because people would panic, people could get injured, somebody might get a heart attack. So there are some limits, right?

TOOBIN: There are really very few. You know that fire in the crowded theater I always sort of rebel at that example because that's really not speech at all. What that's doing is pulling a fire alarm. It's pulling a false alarm and that is really what's going on there. It's not speech. It has no political content.

[13:25:06] When you're talking about political content or even sacrilegious speech, as many people would view what was going on in Texas, you know, portraying Mohammed which is offensive to many but not all Muslims, Pamela Geller knew what she was doing. She was provoking. She was being outrageous. Perhaps it was a dumb idea to do it. But in the United States, she absolutely had the right to do it.

BLITZER: There's - there are differences as far as free speech and hate speech in the United States than there is, for example, in several European countries and people are watching us all over the world. Go through the differences because we know in Germany and other countries there are restrictions on speech.

TOOBIN: Absolutely. Very different traditions. Very different histories. In Germany, for example, it is a crime to deny that the Holocaust took place. It's a crime in Canada to say that - to deny that the Holocaust took place. You know, Germany has a very special history when it comes to matters like that. It's a very free country. But they have decided that certain areas are simply off limits for political debate.

We, in the United States, have a very different tradition. It's much more of a libertarian tradition. It's much more of a tradition that says the government simply cannot be deciding which political speech is - is permissible and which is not and that's really - you know, what - in a - in an age when politicians differ on a lot, Democrats and Republicans fight about all sorts of things, the idea that political speech can't be regulated by the government, that's really a universally supported principle. And I don't think you'll see much disagreement basically anywhere in American politics about that.

BLITZER: So even an event, Jeffrey, like this, which is depicting the Prophet Mohammed in a cartoon and we know that it's caused all sorts of violent action overseas, you say it's permissible here in the United States?

TOOBIN: You know, I don't even think it's a close call. It is definitely permissible in the United States. Again, is it good judgement? Is it something that contributes to a better political and religious dialogue in this country? That's a debatable proposition. But is it legal? Can Pamela Geller or anyone associated with her be prosecuted? Can they be sued? Absolutely not.

BLITZER: Jeffrey Toobin giving us an excellent explanation, as he always does. Thank you very much. There's other important news we're following as well, including Baltimore's state's attorney, Marilyn Mosby, she's been thrust into the spotlight over the Freddie Gray case in Baltimore. In just a moment, we're going to be hearing from her and her husband about the controversy and the suggestions there could be a conflict of interest between them. Stand by.

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