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Nepal Gets Hit By Earthquake Again; At Least 68 Dead And 1,200 Injured; Second Powerful Quake In 17 Days Hits Nepal; Kerry Meeting With Putin In Sochi, Russia; Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired May 12, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 8:00 p.m. in Moscow, 10:45 p.m. in Kathmandu. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

And let's get right to the breaking news.

[12:59:58] A country still reeling from a major earthquake gets hit again. Take a look at this video just in from Nepal. It shows a building collapsing into a pile of dust and rubble.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: INAUDIBLE.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Wow. Today's magnitude 7.3 trembler comes less than three weeks after a devastating earthquake killed thousands of people. As the ground shook once again, traumatized residents scrambled to try to get to safety.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL DILLON, SPOKESMAN, INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR MIGRATION: All of the buildings in the area that I was driving through where we ended up stopping just emptied. Literally hundreds of people. Moms with their kids close to their vests, men, you know, young kids pouring out of these buildings. A lot of confusion. A lot of real anxiety. A couple of gentlemen I watched running back into buildings to try to rescue people. It was -- it was quite an event.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: At least 68 people have died in this latest earthquake. More than 1,200 have been injured. Those numbers could very well go a lot higher. The quake was centered east of Nepal's capital of Kathmandu. The epicenter of the April 25th quake was to the west of the city. Just like last time, the quake triggered landslides. A Red Cross team from Canada captured these images about 30 miles north of Kathmandu. The region has been hit by powerful aftershocks, including one with a magnitude of 6.3. Let's get the latest on the ground. Our Correspondent Will Ripley is

now in Kathmandu. He's joining us on the phone. Will, first of all, what are you seeing?

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): We just arrived here at the airport minutes ago, Wolf. And as we were flying over, I could see that much of the city has electricity and unlike visits after the first earthquake on April 25th, we were able to get in after only circling the airport for about 30 minutes due to congestion on the ground.

Although, I must tell you that the flight attendants on the plane were very nervous because when we took off from Hong Kong, they had been unable to reach their families to make sure that they were safe because the phones are jammed. They told us, like most residents here, they're going to be sleeping outside tonight.

I mean, this is an area that was just now starting to trust it that perhaps it was safe to be back inside their homes. And yet, after the building collapses from this very powerful earthquake, earlier today, a lot of people, even if they don't have tents, will simply be sleeping outside. Thankfully, it's not raining, at least right now -- Wolf.

BLITZER: A huge -- another huge, huge earthquake. And I understand, Will, at least 17 of the people killed, so far in the earthquake today, were in India. This is a very widespread earthquake, with an impact crossing borders. Isn't that right?

RIPLEY: That's right. And aid workers are trying to get to all of the affected areas. The toll -- the epicenter of this quake is about a nine-hour trip from Kathmandu. Still unclear what conditions are there right now. But as you mentioned, people killed in India. Here, of course, the majority of deaths here in Nepal as well. I believe the number now up to 50. And that's the confirmed number. But also, one person dead in Tibet -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Will, the people of the region obviously still recovering from the April 25th earthquake when this one hit. This has to be so traumatic for people. I understand people are just going outside. They're afraid to be in buildings. Is that's what -- is that's what we're seeing?

RIPLEY: Absolute panic here. And you get a sense of how on edge people are. When we were unloading our bags here at the airport, one of the bags fell down and made a large boom and several people shouted and jumped. That's how -- that's how fearful people are, right now, of something falling, of a building coming down, of another earthquake. This has -- this has been such a difficult two and a half weeks for Nepal and this region. And for them to go through this again, another powerful earthquake, a deadly earthquake, more building collapses, it's just terrible for these people -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Will, standby. I want to bring in our own Sumnima Udas who's joining us from New Delhi right now. Sumnima, you know Nepal well. How hard does this second quake make recovery from the first quake? And this is a real disaster unfolding.

SUMNIMA UDAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf. Nepal was just really moving from that search and rescue phase to that relief and rehabilitation phase. And people were just beginning to go back to work, get over the trauma, really, and move back into their homes. A lot of them. But a lot of them still were camping out because they were just too scared to go back to their homes or just simply didn't have a home to go back to.

And then, this happens. This is going to have a huge impact, of course, on the minds of the people and the psychology of the people. You know, we've been talking to a lot of people on the ground. They've just been talking about the noise, the sound of all those people yelling when they realized that this was another massive earthquake.

[13:05:03] Of course, in terms of relief operations, this is going to hamper a lot of that as well because there's been a series of land slides in that Dulka (ph) area which is around the epicenter of this earthquake. We know that some of the major highways there have been blocked off, the major highway to China as well. And this is an area that, you know, people were already -- or the army, the government was already struggling to get to these parts in Nepal after the previous earthquake. And now, you have this.

And, you know, we've went out on -- with the army several times after the first earthquake on the chopper because, a lot of times, that was the only way to get to these parts of Nepal. You can only -- because of the altitude, you can only take a certain amount of relief material in. You can only bring back a certain amount of injured people. So, the whole thing is so -- the whole process is so complicated and this just sets all of that back a little bit once again -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And then, these past three weeks, that huge earthquake at the end of April. But since then, there have been a lot of aftershocks as well and now a second major earthquake unfolding. So, when you're speaking to folks over there, what are they saying to you, Sumnima?

UDAS: Absolutely terrified, Wolf. They were terrified anyway for -- after that first earthquake. As I mentioned, a lot of them were camping out when I asked them, you know, when do you plan on moving back to your home? They said, look, it still feels, even when there's no earthquake, I still feel like I'm shaking all the time. There's been aftershocks constantly, even while we were there. Almost every day there was aftershocks, two or three of them. Some of them very, very strong.

And even after today's earthquake, a lot of people were saying that, you know, they just thought maybe this was yet another one of those aftershocks.And then, very quickly, they realized that this is actually much more than just an aftershock. And then, they started running. They started screaming. Many people crying. There's complete chaos on the streets even now. A lot of people obviously too scared to go back into their homes. There's not many open areas in Kathmandu. It's a very congested city, so they're just out on the streets. The police has put out a statement asking people to, you know, unclog those streets so that the police, the army can operate. But, still, people are out on the streets just too scared. Telecommunications has been pretty difficult so, you know, people are just sort of traumatized still -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Sumnima, we're going to get back to you as well. Thank you so much. Sumnima Udas reporting for us.

I want to bring in our Meteorologist Tom Sater who's also watching what's going on. Tom, how extraordinary is it, two powerful earthquakes hitting basically the same region within a matter of, what, three weeks?

TOM SATER, AMS METEOROLOGIST: A great question, Wolf. In fact, for the most part, when we look at a magnitude quake of that 7.8 original quake, yes, you can have aftershocks that go on days, weeks, months. And you can have them that can be strong. But to have a 7.3 this close, on average, it doesn't occur very much. I mean, most of the buildings we're seeing collapse with the latest aftershock, and that's what we're going to call it, an aftershock, is taking down more of these historical buildings and also landslides.

But let me back up to the first one and why we're calling this an aftershock and not a second quake. And the reason is the placement of this aftershock. The original quake, 7.8. We had a swarm of aftershocks almost every hour and a half to two hours for the first couple days. Then we had a 6.7, that was rare enough but it does happen, that caused landslides.

In fact, just north of Kathmandu, Langtang National Forest, 200 people were buried in a landslide, many were international hikers coming from around the world. But they started to taper off, almost one every day or two days. When you have a quake, this is the first one now, almost three weeks ago, at 7.8, it is possible to have one aftershock that is bigger than a 6.8.

So, we know we had the 6.7. Most have been from 4.0 up to around 5.3. But we can have many more. There's still energy that is locked into the crest here that needs to escape. So, here's the second one, 7.3, nine miles deep. That's very shallow. You feel the shaking much more. Just like the first one, the depth is pretty much the same. The USGS with its computer models, based on the strength and population, gives us a 35 percent chance for the tragic news that 100 to even 1,000 lives could be lost. Like we saw with the first quake, we're going to see the number unfortunately rise.

Here is a map. This is Kathmandu right here in the center of your screen. This is where the shaking was felt to the east. And then, over the mountains to the south into India, therefore, they have fatalities there as well. But you've got 3.8 million feeling extreme shaking.

Now, this is why we think it's an aftershock. The very first quake epicenter was well to the northeast of Kathmandu. In fact, here's Kathmandu. Much in the way of damage to the east but nothing to the north. In fact, there was a rip in the crest, along the fault. And that's where we saw all the damage with the first one come across Kathmandu into the north. The Langtang National Forest is here where we had many landslides.

[13:10:06] But most of the aftershocks, from the first quake, occurred from Kathmandu into this area. You can see it now. All of these dots are aftershocks from this aftershock. So, that fault line, that rip that goes to the east, extreme area now, we're seeing a new, powerful quake, yes, you can call it a quake, aftershock, what have you, and you can start to see some of the terrain. Now, you go from very strong shaking, to moderate, to even lighter to the north. However, as we take a look and you're going to be able to see the terrain with this is quite extensive and we're going to have more landslides.

With the last one, Wolf, I've got to mention, this is interesting. With that 7.8, Kathmandu actually rose about three feet while Mt. Everest dropped about an inch and a half.

But at least aid is there and that is good news. There will be more aftershocks. We're going to be watching this closely, as you know. But messages are coming in from around the world. Here, a gentleman on the coast of India, oh, god, save Nepal. Unbelievable story.

BLITZER: Yes, and it's not over, by any means. There could be, as you point out, more and more aftershocks. All right, Tom Sater, thanks very much.

We're going to have much more on the breaking news coming up on this -- the second devastating earthquake in Nepal.

We'll also speak with a man who says the quake felt like the whole earth was alive.

And, later, President Obama taking on very sensitive issues, here in the United States, of poverty and violence and race, also picking Chicago's south side for his presidential library. Are these clues to how he wants to shape his presidential legacy?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: For the first time since fighting broke out in Ukraine a year ago, a high-ranking American official, the secretary of state, John Kerry, is now in Russia for talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin. Ukraine, the Middle East, especially Syria and Iran, they're very much on the agenda for these meetings.

[13:15:14] Joining us now from New York is Michael Weiss. He's our CNN contributor. He's a fellow with the Institute of Modern Russia and co- author of "ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror."

As you know, Kerry met with Putin in Moscow two years ago. Putin has spoken with President Obama in person at a couple of so-called neutral summits outside of Russia over the past two years. What does it say about the relationship that Kerry, the secretary of state, has now gone to Russia, Michael? MICHAEL WEISS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, the Russian press and the

Russian officials are spinning this as, see, America has come yet again, hat in hand, capitulating to Russian prowess. They want something from us. They realize they can't win in Ukraine, they can't, you know, engage in any of these diplomatic endeavors with respect to Syria or Iran without Russia's participation. And also the fact that Kerry was laying wreaths for fallen Russian soldiers in World War II, after the United States essentially boycotted victory day in Russia is another sort of symbolic significant event for the Kremlin here.

They're saying essentially that, you know, the U.S. is suing for peace again. They realize that they didn't get what they want, sanctions haven't worked. The fact that this took place in Sochi, in Putin's personal residence, this meeting, Sochi, of course, being the location of last year's winter Olympics, also another kind of twist of the knife, I think.

And the timing, I would submit, is actually rather poor. Today happens to be the day that the colleagues of the slain first deputy prime minister, Boris Nemtsov, released Nemtsov's report on Russia's military invasion of Ukraine, which found that 220 Russian soldiers died in two significant battles in Ukraine, one of which took place in January and February of this year, literally as Russia was drafting or helping to draft the so-called Minsk Peace Agreement. So to the Russian opposition, I think to those in Ukraine, they see this as quite poor optics.

BLITZER: There are, obviously, major differences and they'll come up. We're standing by, by the way, Michael, for a news conference. Secretary Kerry is going to be holding a joint news conference with Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister. I assume Ukraine will be high on the agenda, Syria, Iran. When it comes to Iran and the nuclear program, both of these countries seem to be relatively, correct me if I'm wrong, on the same page, right?

WEISS: Yes. Well, I mean, superficially so. I think there's something else going on here. It was interesting, Samantha Power, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, gave an interview with Charlie Rose last week and she said, look, we hope that if we get a nuclear deal with Iran, that Iran will help us get rid of Bashar al Assad in Syria. She - for the first time ever, a senior official in the Obama administration believes that - and I agree with this - that you can't address the problem of ISIS without getting rid of Assad. So the U.S. now believes, or so we're led to believe, that Iran would be a sort of integral partner in fomenting what you might call regime decapitation or some kind of transition. Russia, of course, would have to work (INAUDIBLE) to see that forward too.

And what's happening in Syria is very interesting. The regime is losing, losing quite badly, and so is Iran by the way. In northern Syria, Idlib (ph) city, Idlib (ph) province essentially has fallen out of the regime's control. In southern Syria, the regime and the Revolutionary Guard Corps of Iran have been pretty badly defeated. So I think the U.S. now sees this as an opportunity.

Now, I'm actually quite skeptical that a nuclear deal with Iran or any kind of, you know, friendly overtures with the Kremlin is going to bring about this sort of grand ambition. But, remember, as you pointed out, Wolf, the last time Kerry went to Moscow it was for what, he - you know, to sue for peace in Syria, to get Russia to stop selling S- 300 anti-aircraft missiles to Assad and the culminating event of that was, of course, the announcement of the Geneva 2 Peace Protocol, which went nowhere. So I think this is a sort of do over. They're trying to get Russia on board for a whole host of issues.

BLITZER: Are they on the same page, Michael, when it comes to fighting ISIS, Russia and the Obama administration?

WEISS: No, because Russia believes that Assad is a key integral, indispensable actually partner in the fight against ISIS. And, again, if Samantha Powers to be believed, the president has now come to the belated recognition that you can't defeat radical jihadism in Syria if you have allowed to maintain in Damascus one of the world's leading state sponsors of radical jihadism and a man who never made a priority of fighting ISIS and, in fact, is largely responsible for the facilitation of their rise to power. So they are not on the same page here. But again, you know, Kerry is giving it the old college try. Let's see if it works this time.

BLITZER: Let's see if it will and we'll see what they say.

We're standing by, once again, for this news conference. The foreign minister of Russia, Sergei Lavrov, and the secretary of state of the United States, John Kerry. We'll have coverage coming up.

Michael, thank you.

Up next, more on the counterterrorism partnership as some are calling it between the U.S. and Russia.

Also, the online ideology that's increasingly popular. Can ISIS be defeated on social media? We're getting new insights.

[13:20:05] Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: It's a frank and troubling assessment on ISIS coming from the head of the National Security Agency here in the United States who says this about ISIS efforts to recruit followers online in the United States.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADMIRAL MICHAEL ROGERS, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY: This concern about individuals within the United States increasingly resonated, if you will, with the ideology of ISIL and the idea of just acting violently, indiscriminately, is clearly of great concern. It's a trend that things would suggest is increasing not decreasing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Joining us now to discuss, from Orlando, Florida, retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. He's a CNN military analyst, former commander of the U.S. Army in Europe. And joining us from New York, CNN global affairs analyst Bobby Ghosh. He's also the managing editor of "Quartz."

We'll get to the cyber threats and ISIS recruitment in a moment. But first, I was just talking to Michael Weiss about the U.S. and Russia potentially working together in some areas to fight ISIS. The White House press secretary, Josh Earnest, says the two countries do have a strong counterterrorism cooperation.

General Hertling, how has that been working out?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, it hasn't been working out real well lately, Wolf, but it could. You know, I think Russia is just as concerned - all the reports I'm hearing is that Russia is just as concerned with returning jihadists as we are. And, in fact, maybe a little bit more so. They have a great many boundaries with countries that have these kind of terrorist threats within them. They've fought the Chechens for a while. They have repressed some elements of their population. So there is the potential for this increased linkage.

[13:25:10] You also have the issue with their previously backed Syrian partner that is, as Michael said earlier, is falling apart right now. So I think they are going to be looking for an increased partnership with the United States in terms of fighting terrorism.

BLITZER: And we're waiting for this news conference to happen, Bobby, between the foreign minister of Russia, the secretary of state of the United States. What do you anticipate, anything major emerging? This has - it's been a long time since the secretary of state has actually been to Russia and it's, what, been two years since a high ranking U.S. official has actually met with the Russian president, Putin.

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, look, the major thing that was going to happen is just that, that Kerry has gone. I wouldn't expect anything beyond that to come at the press conference. But it is an important, significant development that the secretary of state has gone to Russia after a long spell. There is something to be taken away from that.

I share Michael's skepticism from your previous segment. You know, the two countries rationally have plenty in common, have faced plenty of threats in common, but Russia occasionally will go off the reservation and not behave in a rationale fashion. We've seen that time and time again with Vladimir Putin in Georgia, more recently in Ukraine. So it's a - it's a little hard to know what exactly they want out of this meeting. But they're going to make a big deal of the fact that the meeting is taking place at all.

BLITZER: And they're going to make a big deal, the Russians certainly will, that the American secretary of state has now paid a visit to Sochi, met with Putin, met with Lavrov, and they're going to have this news conference.

Bobby, let me get your quick thought on what we heard from the director of the National Security Agency here in the United States, that ISIS seems to be really very creative and innovative in dealing with recruitment on social media and that the U.S. is having a problem dealing effectively, combatting that. What's going on here?

GHOSH: Well, to use a - to use a term from the world of social media, ISIS is disrupting the process. Al Qaeda was the original. They began to use, particularly al Qaeda in Yemen, began to use the Internet to recruit people, recruit lone wolves in countries like the U.S. and elsewhere in Europe. We know famously Anwar al Awlaki, the American Yemeni preacher, was using the Internet to reach out to people like Nadal Hassan, the Ft. Hood shooter.

What ISIS is doing is on a different scale. Al Qaeda would insist on a long conversation. They would insist on sort of micro managing a terrorist attack. ISIS is saying to people, go and do your own thing. You don't need any instructions from us. Go and wreak havoc, sow chaos wherever you can. All we are asking from you really is to acknowledge immediately before the event that you're pledging your allegiance to us. We don't want any sort of close control of what you're doing, just go and do it.

And that's very, very dangerous because it means, in the absence of long conversations online between let's say a recruiter in ISIS and a potential terrorist in the U.S., it doesn't give the American - the NSA, for instance, or FBI, the opportunity to listen in, to catch this conversation halfway, and then take action to prevent a terrorist attack, which has happened in the past. Now ISIS is saying, you're free, we don't really need to have a long conversation.

BLITZER: And it's a fair point, general, because, as you know, as a result largely of this threat coming from ISIS, other terrorist organizations, al Qaeda affiliates if you will, to recruit people on social media, take a look at the United States military in recent days, they've gone on a higher state of alert at all U.S. military facilities, bases across the United States. They've already been on a higher state around the world. But already this could be seen as a propaganda victory for ISIS.

HERTLING: It could be, Wolf. And I have to completely agree with Bobby. He makes a great point. Al Qaeda was generation x. ISIS is the millennials. They are depending on social networking. They are - we have to counter - aggressively counter the online narrative because this is the incarnation of the video gaming generation, number one, so we've got to go against that. We haven't done real well in that category yet. But then the second thing, and there's a great debate going on in Congress right now, I heard Congresswoman Gabbert (ph) on your show last night, they're talking about the Patriot Act. And the baggage associated with that particular legislation is huge. But I think there is the potential for taking that 15-year-old act and modernizing it and strengthening it to expose the networks. We can do that now with metadata. And I think we really have to take a strong look at not only countering the narrative, but also continuing to find ways to expose the networks that ISIS is using.

[13:30:05] BLITZER: General Hertling, thank very much. Bobby Ghosh, thanks to you as well.