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Obama Says We Are Not Losing; Hezbollah Joins Fight In Syria; GOP Contenders Grapple With Ground Troops In Iraq; Congress Wrangles Over NSA Phone Data Collection; China Issues Warnings. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired May 21, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[13:00:34] DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: (In progress) -- terror group is not winning on the battlefield. We'll have more on that in a minute.

But first, the fall of an iconic city in Syria to advancing ISIS forces. Palmyra is the home to a treasure trove of ancient ruins, really that link the area to the birth of civilization and critical trade routes linking the Roman Empire to the east. The fear now is that ISIS fighters will destroy those ruins as they have in other parts of Syria and Iraq. The city also has new world implications. It's the gateway for ISIS troops to advance on Syria's two biggest cities still controlled by President Bashar Al Assad's troops. Home and the capital of Damascus.

ISIS forces have also taken control of major oil and gas fields around Palmyra as they routed Syrian government troops.

With the gains in Syria, ISIS now controls more than 50 percent of the country. The rest of the country is carved up between the Syrian government led by President Bashar Al Assad and rebel forces seeking his removal.

Our Senior International Correspondent Nick Paton Walsh is live with us in Beirut with a CNN exclusive. Nick, you just came back from Syria. Tell us what you saw.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, many here in Lebanon, Dana, are concerned potentially at the growth of extremists in the mountainous border region that separates Lebanon from Syria. Lebanon has been peaceful so far despite over a million Syrian refugees flooding into it. But those border regions considered to be perilous by many here and, strangely, fighting against militants there who are linked to Al Qaeda and some to ISIS as well. A group who the U.S. wouldn't normally consider to be an ally in this fight, Hezbollah. And they took us on a rare tour of the areas they had been fighting in yesterday.

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WALSH (voice-over): Yes, it's just a man on a hill, but that they'd even let us film that was pretty remarkable. Hezbollah, the most secretive of militants that the U.S. government still lists as a terrorist organization, taking journalists on a victory lap. They say they've routed hundreds of Al Qaeda-linked Syrian militants to the Nusra front, a terrorist group to the U.S., from these. The ungovernable mountains that divide their peaceful home in Lebanon from where they're fighting with the Syrian regime inside Syria.

Shots that perhaps are distant enemies or maybe for cameras who'd been told strictly no faces, no voices, no phones. They've cleared about 200 square miles, mostly in Syria. They say nearly half still ahead, toughest in the distance here, the Lebanese town of Arsal.

This was the fight recently and it's a complex security operation that they insist is vital for Lebanon's safety. Critics say they risk starting a wider fire in Lebanon, though, to help the Syrian regime. Yet, the tour takes an unexpected turn to cross the border into Syria.

(on camera): Hezbollah had been in a grueling fight inside Syria for years. But here, they're keen to show us that they consider themselves the victor, taking this tour of some western media inside Syrian territory. We're just across the border here, about 10 kilometers of deserted mountains they say they've cleaned out of Nusra front rebels there until you reach the Syrian military.

(voice-over): Yet more surprises. Here's the remnants of who they routed and the shoulder launched missiles they say they had. Nusra front fighters, we're told, linked to Al Qaeda were once scratching out a life in caves lit by generators. We hear a rumbling around the corner and hear it might be Syrian army tanks. We move on. So, will this offensive and, perhaps, Hezbollah bid to bring themselves out of the shadows.

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(live): Now, Dana, you can see, really, how the tectonic plates of this region are shifting. An American T.V. network being taken on a tour of the battlefield by Hezbollah who the U.S. still prescribes (ph) as a terrorists organization. They are showing us who they consider to be the terrorists, who the U.S. also consider to be the terrorists, who they say are the Al Qaeda linked fighters in that area.

But, at this time, when America is talking about a nuclear deal with Iran, who back Hezbollah, you can see, there, the welcome they gave to us, restrictive but cooperative, trying to, I think, play into very much the information war that's happening in this region right now. And many, I think, consider that campaign in the mountains to be controversial.

[13:05:02] There are many here who say it risks stirring up violence inside Lebanon, particularly if, who Hezbollah say are the radicals in the mountains, choose to strike back inside Lebanon. But what you saw there was Hezbollah trying to show they are on the front victorious in clearing out this mountainous region to try, in their opinion, keep Lebanon safer -- Dana.

BASH: Nick, thank you for that exclusive report. That excellent report really showing us not only what it's like on the battlefield but illustrating how incredibly complicated it all is in that country and in the region, of course.

And let's stay in the region and turn now to Iraq and the fall of Ramadi. For the first time since the city was taken by ISIS forces, we are hearing President Obama's reaction and his optimism in an interview with "The Atlantic." He says, quote, "No, I don't think we're losing. Ramadi had been vulnerable for a long time. These are not Iraq security forces that we have trained."

Our Senior International Correspondent Arwa Damon is live in Baghdad now. And, Arwa, Iraqi troops outnumbered ISIS fighters in Ramadi but still ended up retreating from the city. Do you think the president's optimism is appropriate?

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Look, Dana, It's not about being optimistic or pessimistic. It's about being realistic. We have been reporting on this situation in Ramadi and the calls from top officials there and calls from top security officials there as well for more re-enforcements, more U.S.-led coalition air strikes as far back as November. And, since then, especially in the last few months, we've been seeing attempts by --

BASH: OK, we, obviously, are having technical problems with Arwa Damon and we're going to try to get back to her in just a short while. But we're going to stay on the issue of Iraq. Do we have Maeve Reston with us? OK. So, we're going go -- excuse me, stick with Iraq but we're going to come back here to the United States because it is, of course, a hot political problem here for Republicans and Democrats and an open question on how they're going to deal with this, particularly on the subject of ground troops.

Potential GOP contenders are choosing their words very, very carefully. And that includes Jeb Bush who previously got tripped up trying to defend his brother's decision to invade Iraq in 2003. This time, Bush staked out a politically safe position on ISIS saying, quote, "Make the decisions based on conditions on the ground, not for some political purpose. Whether we need more than 3,000, which is what we have now, I would base that on what the military advisers say.

Well, joining me now is CNN National Political Reporter Maeve Reston. And, Maeve, good to see you. You have a really good piece on CNN.com right now kind of diving deeper on what we have been talking about here for the past week or so about the issue that Republicans have on the trail grappling with their positions on Iraq. Tell us a little bit about that.

MAEVE RESTON, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, I mean, it's just so fascinating that we are seeing several of the Republican candidates or would-be candidates like George Pataki, the former governor of New York, coming out and talking about a need for more ground troops.

And, you know, having covered these past presidential campaigns the last couple of cycles, it's just amazing that we are hearing candidates actually call for potentially a new wave of ground troops because that would have been political suicide just a short time ago. But you do see public opinion shifting on this, particularly -- most Americans are still opposed to having ground troops in Iraq but the younger cohort of voters is going to -- is more open to the idea of ground troops in Iraq now.

BASH: And look -- let's look at that because that's one thing that -- one of many things that's fascinated about your piece, Maeve. Harvard University Institute of Politics survey released in April showed that 57 percent of 18 to 29 year olds favored sending ground troops to participate in a military campaign against ISIS which is kind of remarkable.

But, even more so, when you look at the shift from eight years ago, 60 percent of that age said most or all troops should be withdrawn from Iraq. You know, I'm -- I don't know the answer to why there's such a shift. It's certainly is surprising. What do you think?

RESTON: Well, I think that -- you know, if you think about this younger cohort of voters, they did not live through the sort of dragged out George W. Bush debate over foreign policy. They have less of a connection to September 11th. And, you know, it's a less personal connection to September 11th. And so, I mean, it's -- there's really an interesting question here of whether they would be more open to voting for Republicans because many of them clearly favor a more muscular foreign policy. And that could create an opening for some of the younger candidates like Marco Rubio who's really been trying to connect on those kinds of issues.

[13:10:02] BASH: And, you know, obviously, this is not easy for a lot of candidates. We started this discussion in the political dialogue because their candidate named Bush was having a lot of trouble last week answering whether he would've gone to war. But it's kind of hard to believe that this is going to be the fourth presidential election in a row where Iraq could really play big.

RESTON: Right. And I think that part of the reason why all of the candidates are struggling with this, including Hillary Clinton, is because there are no easy answers about how to go after ISIS. They're all uncomfortable questions. How many casualties would you be willing to take in the U.S. to eliminate ISIS? And how far should you go with air strikes? The candidates will have to answer all of those questions as we go farther along here in the presidential race and that's a very uncomfortable position to be in.

BASH: It sure is. Maeve, so much -- thank you so much. It's great to see you.

And just ahead, Rand Paul's 10-hour rant against the Patriots Act is over. Now, Congress has to decide whether the government should keep collecting phone records. An independent senator weighs in.

And later, making Clinton's private e-mails public. The State Department could soon release hundreds of pages related to the Benghazi attack.

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BASH: Congress is wrangling over whether the National Security Agency should continue collecting the bulk phone records of millions of Americans. The program, authorized under the Patriot Act, is set to expire at the end of is this month. Kentucky Senator and Republican presidential candidate, Rand Paul, took to the Senate floor for 10 and a half hours today to oppose the program. He says it violates the privacy rights of Americans.

[13:15:03] And joining us to talk about that and a lot more is Senator Angus King, an independent from Maine who sits on the Intelligence Committee.

And I'll start with that, senator, should Congress renew or revise the sections of the Patriot Act that allow the NSA collection of these phone records?

SEN. ANGUS KING, I-MAINE: I think the key word you used was revise, Dana. It should be reformed, but it also should not be lost all together. It strikes me as ironic at a time when risks are escalating, when we face kind of lone wolf terrorists here in the United States, that we're talking about unilaterally disarming, in effect, in terms of our intelligence capability. I've been one that's argued in the intelligence committee and in the Senate for reforming this program to protect privacy rights, but I think scrapping it all together would be a huge mistake and we'd be back here in months or a year and people would - there would be an attack and people would say, you know, where were you when we could have done something to prevent this.

BASH: And just as Congress is known to do lately, we are right up against the deadline for these provisions to expire, June 1st. But not only that, senator, look at this, the Justice Department sent a memo just today talking about the fact that this could pose problems tomorrow, May 22nd, saying, "after May 22, 2015, the National Security Agency will need to begin taking steps to wind down the bulk telephone metadata program in anticipation of a possible sunset in order to ensure that it does not engage in any unauthorized collection or use of the metadata." Meaning, you guys basically have to get your stuff together in the next 12 hours or these programs could begin to unwind. What do you think about that?

KING: Yes, we - well, we had a briefing on that earlier in the week and that was the expectation that we had. And it's, you know, frankly, it's disappointing to me that we're - here we are at the deadline. I guess the only excuse is, you know, which among us - who among us did our book report before Sunday night.

But, you know, this is serious stuff and we've known about this deadline for years and this should have been taken care of a long time ago, but here we are. And I think the problem now is, that I don't think that there are enough votes for the USA Freedom Act, which is the bill that essentially passed the House. So we've got to try to find the votes for a short-term extension.

There are discussions productive discussions going on that I think can be productive that could - we could reach some consensus on but it's going to take some time and that's - but right now it's anybody's guess where the votes are. BASH: Can you give us a little bit of an insight into what those

discussions are about, where you're focusing on a potential compromise?

KING: Well, I can tell you my problem, I've always been one that's been uncomfortable with all of this data being held by the government, even though there are a lot of protections and a lot of standards and very few people have access to it. It just makes me nervous that the government has this big trove of data. And so I've always been one that felt it should be put either in an independent third party or left with the phone companies. That's what the Freedom Act would do. The problem with the bill that the House passed is, that there's no limit on the data retention by the phone companies. So they could say, well, we're only going to keep it two weeks or a month or six weeks and then it's of no intelligence value. So that's the sticking point and that's where we're trying to find some areas of compromise.

BASH: Going to turn to what you voted on in the last hour or so, which is the ability to give the president, or guess maybe technically Congress, a trade promotion authority. You voted against that. Before I ask you about that, I want to play for you what the president said because President Obama is very much for it. Listen to this.

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BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I would not be promoting any agreement that I didn't think, you know, at the end of the day, was going to be creating jobs in the United States and giving us more of an opportunity to create ladders of success, higher incomes and higher wages for the American people.

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BASH: This is a president who, obviously, you support, saying that he is in favor of this because he thinks it will help Americans with jobs. But you voted against it, why?

KING: Well, I can remember saying in my campaign two years ago when people said, do you support the president? I said, I'll support him when I think he's right and I'll oppose him when I think he's wrong. On this one, I haven't been convinced that he's right.

The fun - here's - it's very simple, Dana. I don't know how I go back to Maine and look at a worker or a small manufacturing company and say, you're supposed to compete even up with a company in Vietnam that doesn't have the Fair Labor Standards Act, no minimum wage, no EPA, no OSHA, none of those protections and yet - and they pay their people 60 cents an hour, but you've got to compete with them. I can't make that argument with a straight face and nobody has yet satisfied me that there are sufficient protections in place to really protect American jobs. I just don't think that the argument is there.

[13:20:05] Sure, it's going to help some companies. It's going to help some of the companies that operate all over the world. But when you talk about American manufacturing, this has been the heart of the middle class. It's been the heart of what's propelled this country and I just think we shouldn't be giving it away.

BASH: Well, I should say, despite the real split in the Democrat caucus, in this vote just about an hour or so ago, the supporters were able to overcome the filibuster with just two votes to spare.

KING: Right.

BASH: So it looks like it's heading toward approval in the Senate and then we have to see what happens in the House.

KING: Right.

BASH: So we'll see if your - if your position prevails.

Senator Angus King, thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate it.

KING: Thank you, Dana. Always a pleasure.

BASH: You too.

And still ahead, a CNN exclusive on a standoff in the sky.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the Chinese navy. This is the Chinese navy. Please go away quickly.

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BASH: A U.S. spy plane refused to back down during a confrontation with China over contested waters and CNN is right there on board for the ride.

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BASH: Now to a CNN exclusive. An American spy plane confronted by the Chinese navy. Our correspondent, Jim Sciutto, who you see there in the blue jacket, was on that U.S. surveillance flight when it was ordered by China to evacuate an area above the South China Sea. The confrontation centers around man-made islands where the Chinese military buildup is raising concerns at the Pentagon. CNN's Jim Sciutto has more.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the Chinese navy. This is the Chinese navy. Please go away quickly.

[13:25:02] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a standoff in the skies between China and the U.S.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You go!

SCIUTTO: As Beijing makes a massive and unprecedented land grab 600 miles from its coast.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So when's the last time you went up?

SCIUTTO: CNN got exclusive access to classified U.S. surveillance flights over the islands. The first time journalists have been allowed on an operational mission by the state of the art P8A Poseidon.

SCIUTTO (on camera): We've just arrived on station now above the three islands that are the targets of today's mission. It's these three islands that have been the focus of China's building in the South China Sea over recent years.

SCIUTTO (voice-over): In just two years, China has expanded these islands by 2,000 acres, the equivalent of 1,500 football fields and counting.

SCIUTTO (on camera): You're a military man. You look at this. Is there any doubt that that is a future military installation?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears to me, a buildup of military infrastructure.

SCIUTTO (voice-over): For China, this new territory is unnegotiable. China's foreign minister calls his country's commitment "unshakable." And China defends the new islands closely, patrolling with coast guard and navy warships and ordering the P8 out of the airspace eight times on this one mission alone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please go away quickly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am a United States military aircraft. I am operating with due regard, as requires, under international law.

SCIUTTO: The Chinese military sometimes shows its frustration.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Foreign military aircraft, this is Chinese navy. You are approaching our military alert zone. Leave immediately.

SCIUTTO: The standoff is military to military, but civilian aircraft can be caught in the middle.

SCIUTTO (on camera): You heard over the intercom, Chinese navy, this is the Chinese navy. And what was interesting is that there were also civilian aircraft. There was a Delta flight on that same frequency that when it heard that challenge, it piped into the frequency to say, what's going on? The Chinese navy then reassuring them. But as the flight crew tells me, that can be a very nerve-racking experience for civilian aircraft in the area.

SCIUTTO (voice-over): Five Southeast Asian nations claim parts of this area as their own. China says this territory is part of their history, claiming ownership back 2,000 years.

CAPT. MIKE PARKER, COMMANDER, U.S. NAVY: Recognize that as anything to do with - in accordance with international law.

SCIUTTO: But many see economic and military motives as well. The islands are rich in oil and gas deposits, and they extend China's naval and air presence, challenging U.S. naval supremacy in the region.

Jim Sciutto, CNN, above the South China Sea.

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BASH: The Iraq military is on a major losing streak as ISIS takes more and more ground.

Coming up, will a large number of American soldiers be need once again to go into Iraq in order to stop the Islamic fighters from inching any closer to Baghdad. We'll ask the chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Congressman Ed Royce, up next.

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