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Hearing Cleared After Report Of Suspicious Package; TSA Misses Airport Workers Linked To Terrorism; Report Exposes Holes In TSA Terror Vetting; Iraq's Fight Against ISIS; Iraqi Forces Gain Ground; Interview with Iraqi Ambassador Lukman Faily; War Against ISIS. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired June 09, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 p.m. in London, 7:00 p.m. in Berlin, and 8:00 p.m. in Baghdad. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

We have breaking news coming in from Capitol Hill right here in Washington. Police have cleared floors of the U.S. Senate office building, including an ongoing hearing, after they received a phone call reporting a suspicious package. You're looking at these pictures just from moments ago, a hearing of the Senate Homeland Security Committee chaired by Senator Ron Johnson. All of a sudden, he told them they have to evacuate this hearing.

Let's go to our Senior Washington Correspondent Joe Johns. He's up on Capitol Hill. He's joining us on the phone. Joe, what is going on?

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, you have it right there. It was the Dirksen Senate Office Building, one of the many cavernous buildings here on Capitol Hill. And authorities say they got a report of a suspicious package apparently on the third floor in a room right next door to or adjacent to the hearing room where the Homeland Security Committee was meeting. We know that the room was cleared. We know that an investigation continues into what is there or is not there.

I was just there on the floor minutes ago and there was a state of calm because, as you know, things like this happen on Capitol Hill from time to time but because obviously it was Homeland Security Department because the subject matter was the transportation security administration an abundance of concern. Authorities have not told us that there have been any type of an all clear so we're waiting now to find out just what they think it is. They did tell us, electronically through e-mail, that some floors of the building had been cleared but I saw no evidence of that.

What I did see evidence of is that the elevators to the basement appear to have been programmed not to take people all the way into the tunnels. So, it's not clear how many people have been evacuated, whether it's offices, floors, whatnot. But we know the authorities have said they have -- they have evacuated some floors. So, waiting and watching to see what happens here on Capitol Hill, Wolf, and we'll get back to you when we know. BLITZER: Well, quick question. Is it just the Dirksen Senate Office

Building? We're showing our viewers a live picture of authorities now going through, walking around, looking in the Dirksen -- this is the hearing room where the secretary -- excuse me, the senator, the chairman of the Homeland Security Committee was chairing this hearing on the TSA. We see law enforcement, Capitol Hill police and others walking around there seemingly looking for something right in the hearing room. I take it it's just the Dirksen Senate Office Building, Joe. It's not the Russell, the Hart, any of the other --

JOHNS: No.

BLITZER: -- Senate office buildings that have been evacuated?

JOHNS: Right. To my knowledge, and I can tell you I've done a very cursory walk around. I'm standing right now in front of Russell, because there had been concern that there might have been another call but that is unconfirmed. There's no evidence of that visually on the ground here at the Capitol Hill complex. I do not see people being evacuated from other buildings at this time. I haven't been by Hart, so, you know, anything's possible but nothing's confirmed -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And I just want to point out to our viewers, these are live pictures from inside this hearing room in the Dirksen Senate Office Building up on Capitol Hill. There was a hearing on the TSA, the Transportation Security Administration. Some of the recent very embarrassing lapses, failures that have been documented by the inspector general of the Department of Homeland Security, including some 70 or 80 employees of the TSA who clearly were not thoroughly vetted. They were on the terror watch list. Yes, they had jobs and they were allowed into sensitive areas at airports across the United States.

There was a hearing that Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin, the Chairman of this committee was holding. And now, he abruptly had to cancel or at least postpone that hearing. I think Senator Johnson is joining us now live. Senator, can you hear me?

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R), WISCONSIN: Sure can, Wolf. How are you doing?

BLITZER: Good. Where are you now?

JOHNSON: I'm in the Russell rotunda. So, right now, it's just the third floor of the Dirksen building that was evacuated in a very orderly fashion. The capitol police are doing an excellent job. And we're going to -- apparently, they're searching different rooms because there was a -- you know, a threat (INAUDIBLE.) There was a suspicious package and so they're doing their job.

BLITZER: And as far as you know, Senator, there's no all clear that's been given yet?

JOHNSON: No, not yet. But again, the Russell building is open. The Hart office building is open. I think other areas of the Dirksen building haven't been evacuated. It's really just the third floor right now. BLITZER: So, when you abruptly told everyone to leave that hearing

room, what exactly did authorities tell you? What was the explanation?

[13:05:06] JOHNSON: Just that there was a threat called in and that we had to -- you know, the capitol police was clearing not only the hearing room but the floor. And so, I just made that announcement and we very quickly evacuated that hearing room and we evacuated the building.

BLITZER: It was very orderly. We saw it all on video. Was it a bomb threat called in, Mr. Chairman?

JOHNSON: All I know is it was supposedly a suspicious package. You know, I don't know what exactly the threat was but, you know, obviously, capitol police, we have to take these things seriously and that's what we did.

BLITZER: How often does something like this happen? You've been a senator now for a while.

JOHNSON: It's the first time it's happened in my hearing room. But, you know, unfortunately, Wolf, in the -- in the world we live in today, this happens all too often. Officials have to take these things seriously. Thankfully, most of these are prank calls and false threats. But, you know, we live in an area of terrorism, and we have to take these threats seriously because some of these threats are real.

BLITZER: Yes, and people who think there's some sort of hoax or prank, they don't realize this is a felony. They can wind up going to jail for a long time if they make these kinds of phone calls.

All right, Senator, let's talk about some of the issues. You were holding this hearing on the TSA. You do oversight of the Transportation Security Administration. What's the latest? Because it was pretty alarming, about 70 or 80 employees of the TSA received jobs even though they were on a terror watch list here in the United States. And they were allowed entry into sensitive areas at airports and elsewhere. What's going on?

JOHNSON: Well, the stove piping between agencies, those stove pipes have still not been torn down or they're being rebuilt. And so, you don't have the free flow of information from one agency to the other. And so, TSA has not been made aware of, you know, the threat that these people pose. And so, they were given clearance to work behind the scenes in airports. But that's only one of the problems.

Another thing we were exploring in this hearing is the fact that, you know, there have been news reports that, you know, we had inspectors basically going through these airport security zones with, you know, what were simulated either explosive devices or weapons. And they failed to capture those things or detect them and at 59 percent or a higher rate which shouldn't surprise anybody.

Let's face it, all those of us who travel on an ongoing basis realize that, you know, this is, in many respects, security theater. Not that there isn't some effectiveness to security theater, but what I'm trying to get is I'm trying to work with Secretary Jeh Johnson, the new TSA administrator that hopefully we'll confirm very quickly, Vice Admiral Neffenger. I want them to start thinking outside of the box. We need to be looking at what's the most effective, in terms of security, but also what's the most effective in terms of cost of how do we keep this nation safe within the TSA? We've got to rethink our approach from top to bottom.

BLITZER: Well, Senator -- I've got to tell you, Mr. Chairman, I was shocked. You may not have been surprised, you watch this more closely than I do, that these representatives of the TSA, regular people who work there, the inspector general reported that they made 70 attempts to go through TSA security at various airports around the country with fake bombs, with weapons or whatever, explosives, fake explosives. And 67 times, 67 out of 70, they got through. That was pretty shocking to me, Mr. Chairman.

JOHNSON: Well, we're looking for a technological solution. So, we have these AIT machines that are supposed to be able to detect bombs. But then they don't detect a metal weapon. So, I mean, there are some pretty simple solutions is do a second-step approach. Make sure you have a metal detector on the other side.

But something else that I was just talking about in the hearing before we had to recess because of the threat is what about bomb-sniffing dogs? They are incredibly effective. The person from GAO is saying, well, they're pretty expensive. We're spending two -- $7.2 billion on the security theater. Let's take a look at what's going to actually work in the layered approach.

We had a very good witness, a former and current air marshal, also saying, you know, we need to repurpose air marshals so they're more effective in what they do. So, again, that's what I'm saying. We've got to totally rethink what our approach is to airport security transportation, take a look at what the mission is of the TSA.

And, Wolf, I've got to point out, here's one of the problems. The TSA has basically two goals. One is to cape -- to keep this nation completely safe, make sure you -- we catch every potential threat. At the same time, make sure passengers are being put through the system very efficiently. Those two goals are completely contradictory and that creates part of the problem.

BLITZER: I want to be precise here, Mr. Chairman. When millions of travelers, they go to airports throughout the United States. They go through the TSA checkpoint. They take off their shoes. They take off their jackets. They put all their electronic stuff in a -- in a -- in a certain bin. They do -- they go through that whole process. You're saying this is largely theater? Is that what you're saying?

[13:10:13] JOHNSON: Well, I think an -- that was somebody else's word, somebody else's phrase but, to a certain extent, it's true. And, again, part of that security theater works. It does deter people. There's no doubt about it. And we do detect and we catch things. I told a story where I went to a Boy Scout event and they gave me a little package. I didn't have time to look at it so I quick popped in my briefcase. And in Milwaukee airport in Terminal C, they caught the little pocket knife.

So, we've got a lot of TSA -- I'd say the vast majority that are alert, that are really paying attention. But, again, they're being given an almost impossible task, 100 percent security. But at the same time, the kind of through-put, the millions -- 660 million passengers that we're screening, I can't lay out all the statistics, it's an impossible task. So, we got to be a whole lot smarter at the way we approach that security measure.

BLITZER: It's pretty shocking stuff to me. And I'm sure millions of other people who are part of this, who go through these screenings all the time, if it's just theater, and it's not really going to catch stuff that shouldn't be going through.

Mr. Chairman, let us know what's happening, as far as that phoned threat, that mysterious package that's forced you to evacuate your hearing room up in the Dirksen Senate Office Building. We'll stay on top of that story. But thanks very much for sharing what's going on. We really appreciate.

JOHNSON: Thanks for your interest. Have a great day.

BLITZER: Thank you. Ron Johnson is the chairman of the Senator Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee.

Up next, we're going to turn to the fight against ISIS in Iraq. The Iraqi ambassador to the United States, he's here live. We're going to talk about Iraq's contributions to the fight. What is going on right now? My conversation with the Iraqi ambassador when we come back.

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[13:15:12] BLITZER: Let's get to the fight against ISIS in Iraq right now. Iraqi forces are scoring some victories in northern Iraq right now around the Baiji oil complex. The refinery there is the largest in Iraq. Security officials tell CNN the Iraqi military, backed by Shiite militia fighters, now control the majority of the complex and the city.

Ben Wedeman is joining us now live from Baghdad.

Ben, you've been there now for a while. How fluid is this situation, first of all, in Baiji, this strategically important oil refinery? Because if you listen to Pentagon officials, it seems to be changing hands every few days or so.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's been fighting in Baiji, the refinery and the town for quite some time, Wolf. But the Iraqi security officials we spoke to today were fairly categorical. They say that as far as Baiji the town goes, that they control almost all of the city. It's just one last northern suburb, known as El Muhan Dasin (ph), that they're still encountering some problems with snipers and IEDs, which, of course, is the modus operandi of ISIS. When it leaves an area, they leave behind hundreds, in some cases thousands of these IEDs, which makes progress difficult. But Iraqi officials seem pretty confident now that they're very well in control of the situation there.

As far as the refinery goes, that, we are told, is 75 percent under the control of Iraqi forces. Now, the fighting has been going on there for a really long time, so that refinery, Iraq's largest, has essentially been out of action for several months. And given the damage that's occurred there, until, a, the Iraqi forces can control it 100 percent, it's still going to be months before that facility is back up and running.

Wolf.

BLITZER: And just north of Baiji, as you know, is Mosul, the second- largest city in Iraq, taken over almost exactly a year or so ago by ISIS. What's the latest as far as this strategy to liberate Mosul from these ISIS terrorists?

WEDEMAN: Well, today, Wolf, is the one-year anniversary since the fall of Mosul. Now, earlier this year, we were reporting that U.S. officials were saying that there would be some sort of a late spring offensive to liberate Mosul, but that's completely gone out the window. Now, the government of Haider al-Abadi has appointed a general too coordinate the efforts, to prepare for an offensive to take Mosul, but that's still months and months away and they really have to secure the southern approaches to the city, Baiji, the area north of Baiji, as well, which is still under is control.

In the meantime, you have hundreds of thousands, according to some U.N. estimates, up to three million people homeless in Iraq, displaced by the fighting. Up to one million from Mosul itself. Some of them are here in Baghdad. We spoke to one group of 48 Christian families from Mosul who are now staying in an old school, an old girl's elementary school. And they're, frankly, pessimistic. They feel that ISIS, after one year, has really got its claws deep into that city. One man told me the chances of him returning any time soon to Mosul are one in a million.

Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Ben Wedeman in Baghdad. Be careful over there. Thank you very much.

President Obama has been criticized over the past 24 hours, including by some members of Congress, for a lack of an anti-ISIS strategy in Iraq. But the president has seemingly put the blame directly on Iraq's government. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We don't yet have a complete strategy because it requires commitments on the part of the Iraqis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, let's bring in the ambassador of Iraq to the United States, Lukman Faily.

Mr. Ambassador, thanks very much for joining us.

LUKMAN FAILY, IRAQI AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: Thank you for having me.

BLITZER: You heard what the president had to say. And let me play a little bit more of what he said at that news conference yesterday because, also, he's clearly disappointed in what your government is doing or not doing. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And one of the things that we're still seeing is - in Iraq, places where we've got more training capacity than we have recruits. So part of my discussion with Prime Minister Abadi was, how do we make sure that we get more recruits in. A big part of the answer there is our outreach to Sunni tribes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, so you heard the president say the U.S. does not have a complete strategy right now because your government, your military, is not doing what you should be doing. Your reply to the president?

[13:19:59] FAILY: I think Mr. President is right in a sense that we have to have a complete picture, everybody working with each other in relations to operations, strategies, media and others as well. However, on Iraq, we have been doing as much as we can. We have - we still have in these fights with the reflection we just had in Baiji and others. It's all a reflection that we cannot accommodate ISIS. We will endeavor with - certainly with the U.S. report and we appreciate that all the time. But I think we need to work closer with each other in addressing these issues.

BLITZER: Because he says the U.S. has trainers there but the Iraqi military is not showing up. There's not enough recruits to go ahead and train.

FAILY: I think your report talked about the fluidity of it. So it's not just - this is not across the whole of Iraq. Might be pockets here and there. The issue, if we fought (ph) with ammunition or it's harder to get to that base or other aspects of it as well. As a strategy, working together in defeat of ISIS in Iraq, the focus has to be Iraq. The focus has to be Ramadi and it has to be (INAUDIBLE), Mosul province.

BLITZER: So why did the Iraqi military simply abandon Mosul, the second-largest city, exactly one year ago today and leave behind so much U.S.-supplied military equipment? And then more recently they did exactly the same thing in Ramadi.

FAILY: In Ramadi there wasn't an equipment issue. It was an issue we're still - we're looking at that thoroughly. There's a lot of investigation going on. And in relation to Mosul, I think that's a very big disappointment for all of us in Iraq and certainly for the region. We cannot accommodate ISIS being there. We need support of others as well. However, we are a new democracy. We are a new country in development. U.S. troops left us with no even a single fighter plane. Let's not forget that. And I think we need to get our politics right, but we need the support of others and let me make clear that -

BLITZER: You heard, though -

FAILY: Let me be clear, Wolf -

BLITZER: Yes, please.

FAILY: Others need us as much as we need them. This is a threat to all.

BLITZER: Because you heard - you heard, and they were really blunt words, the defense secretary of the United States, Ash Carter, tell our Barbara Starr, our Pentagon correspondent, that your troops, in his words, showed no will to fight in Ramadi.

FAILY: I don't think anybody will benefit from such words. The Americans as much as us. We have partnership. We have the will for it. Every day your reports (INAUDIBLE). Every day we have these fights on different operations, different theaters. Blood - Iraq are paying blood, tear, sweat and resources every day.

As our prime minister said, ISIS are targeting an attrition of war. We need to be focused on that. We cannot accommodate for it. I think ISIS is not an Iraqi problem. It's a regional - it's a global problem. What - what you saw in Paris last week and yesterday in Germany reflect that. I think we all need to be on same wavelength or same page and talk about -

BLITZER: (INAUDIBLE) -

FAILY: Talk about the threat to all.

BLITZER: But you know those of us who have been to Iraq, we love Iraq, we love Iraqis -

FAILY: Thank you.

BLITZER: Are so disappointed that after, what, a decade of U.S. training and arming and providing support for the Iraqi military in an instance like the battle in Ramadi where you overwhelmingly outnumber these ISIS terrorists, you guys abandoned Ramadi.

FAILY: Well, I can assure you that after 2003 the will of the people to have democracy, to have their - their - is still there. The determination to build the country is still there. We had no state after 2003. The Americans were there. They abandoned us in 2011. Now it's important that the country work with us -

BLITZER: Let me just be precise. When you say the United States abandoned Iraq in 2011, when the U.S. pulled out troop, right, is that what you're saying? FAILY: 2011 there - we had no single fighter plane. That's a fact.

BLITZER: Well, the U.S. - the U.S. pulled out its troops in 2011. That was a schedule that President Bush had put in place, that President Obama implemented. President Obama said he had no choice because the prime minister at that time, Nouri al-Maliki, refused to sign a status of forces agreement which would give the U.S. military protection from being arrested by the Iraqis.

FAILY: I don't want to go into the history of who's what why, but what I was saying is that we now have a serious problem. We need to work with each other. Iraqis feel that United States, as an ally, need to stand with us for our common threats. We don't - we had significant political change last year as a result of Mosul and we're working with each other. We have a very united team at the leadership in relation to speaker, parliament, president and prime minister.

BLITZER: So let me ask you -

FAILY: But - but -

BLITZER: Excuse me for interrupting, Mr. Ambassador.

FAILY: Yes.

BLITZER: I just want to be precise, and you can tell me if I'm right. You're blaming the United States for the disaster that is taking -

FAILY: I think we all have made mistakes.

BLITZER: Wait a second. There's a disaster in Iraq right now, as you and I probably agree. The United States you're blaming?

FAILY: I'm saying we all make mistakes. Let's not be (INAUDIBLE) on that. Let's focus on the future. Let's work with each other. As far as mistakes, these mistakes are made. There was change in administration. There was change of policy. We appreciate that. We're not questioning that. What we're saying now, as a result of us not working closely with each other back in 2011, now we're - everybody's paying the price. We need to work with each other moving forward.

[13:25:06] BLITZER: One final question. The former U.S. secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, told "The Times" of London that - and I'm quoting him now - "the idea that we could fashion a democracy in Iraq seemed to me unrealistic." He said throughout - the aftermath of 2003 when the U.S. launched the invasion, got rid of Saddam Hussein, he never believed it was realistic to create a democracy in Iraq. Your reaction to Donald Rumsfeld?

FAILY: I'm sure - I'm sure Secretary Rumsfeld will appreciate that having 10 elections, three changes of leadership in a very civil way, this doesn't happen in that region. We have stuck to it. The latest election we have, 68 - 62 percent of the people participated. So it's not an issue about people going there, it's an issue of us working with each other, believing in a new democracy, working - it's not an issue of democracy per say, it's an issue of a new system based on the old heritage of Saddam Hussein. That's where we are. We appreciate what United States did for us. We are looking for further support. We are allied. Let's stick to that.

BLITZER: You have a lot of work to do to reassure the Iraqi Sunnis, the Iraqi Kurds that they are really part of Iraq.

FAILY: We have a nascent (ph) democracy. We need to work with each other. Everybody has a threat. Every component of Iraq has to live with a threat of ISIS. Let's not - let's get rid of that. Let's work with each other. I think the team's (ph) there. The spirit is there. We need to get the tactic and certainly certain elements of the strategy. But let me repeat that, as much as we need the west, we need the United States and others, thank you very much for all the help, you need us as well here.

BLITZER: Lukman Faily is the Iraqi ambassador to the United States. Mr. Ambassador, you have a tough job. Thanks very much for coming in.

FAILY: Thank you for having me here.

BLITZER: We'll stay in close touch with you.

Just ahead, there's breaking news we're following on that prison break in upstate New York. New developments in the search for two escaped prisoners, both killers. An active search is underway throughout North America right now, and especially in a place only about 30 miles from that prison. We're going live to New York after a quick break.

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