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Protesters Rally to Take Down Confederate Flag; Confederate Flag Fight Shifting to Mississippi; Governor and Senators Call for Flag's Removal; Walmart CEO Speaks Out; Prisoners Left Cabin in a Hurry; Confederate Merchandise Dropped; Confederate Flag Debate. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired June 23, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 p.m. in London, 8:00 p.m. in Baghdad, 12:00 midnight in Ho Chi Minh City. Wherever you are around watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

Up first, take it down, that's the chant that echoed across the capital grounds in South Carolina today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWD: Take it down. Take it down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Protesters are calling for the confederate battle flag to be removed in the state capital. The South Carolina legislature could discuss the issue when lawmakers convene this hour. The movement is gaining momentum following the church massacre in Charleston last week. Yesterday, South Carolina's governor called for the flag's removal. Nikki Haley was surrounded by lawmakers and civil rights' leaders.

Our Correspondent Ana Cabrera is joining now us from Columbia, South Carolina, the state capital. Ana, you were there for the protest today. Is there a sense that the lawmakers are now listening to the calls to remove the flag and that that will happen any time soon?

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we do understand they plan to introduce legislation as they get back together here within the next few minutes in order to call this issue of removing the flag as part of this session's agenda. Now, they have to add some specific amendments to the current agenda in order to do that. We're understanding that the most likely scenario to play out is that they will vote on adding that legislation. That is likely to pass.

Still takes two-thirds majority, though, to add that to this year's session. And then, they would likely later set up a time to come back this summer in the days or weeks ahead to then debate the issue. And that process could also take a few weeks, up to a month. This is still a very heated issue here in South Carolina, but we're seeing a huge swing in momentum for taking the flag down.

You can see folks behind me sort of leaving this rally that just finished, just wrapped up. We saw hundreds turn out from near and far, from across the state, blacks and whites coming together to call for the flag's removal. And we talked to a number of lawmakers who say they are listening.

And what we've also heard is from Republicans who are our traditional group who have often supported the flag's presence now changing their tune. Perhaps it's because the political pressure on them has been lifted, to some degree, in order to be able to support this without huge retaliation. And so, it will be very interesting to see how the dynamics play out.

I can also tell you, Wolf, on the flip side, we have heard from one representative who said he does not want to take up this issue this session. He believes that it would be more of a political ploy to carry this on after a tragedy. He would rather see this happen in January.

So, we'll still wait and see the drama as it unfolds inside the state capital today. What we should know by the end of today is how they're going to proceed on this issue. If they choose not to take it up this session, we know the governor could still call an executive session to make that happen which she says she will do -- Wolf.

She seems -- Nikki Haley seems determined to do that. Ana Cabrera on the grounds over there. Thank you very much.

One of the key lawmakers standing beside the governor as she called for the removal of the confederate battle flag was Democratic Congressman, James Clyburn, of South Carolina. He's joining us from Columbia, the state capital, right now. Congressman, as usual, thanks very much for joining us. And it's still a little confusing out there, whether a simple majority will be needed, a two-thirds majority. You understand South Carolina politics. Explain what's going to happen.

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D), SOUTH CAROLINA: Well, thank you so much for having me, Wolf. First of all, if they were to take the issue up now, it will require a two-thirds vote in order to amend the sine die resolution. They're operating under a resolution that limits them to a discussion of the budget. For them to go beyond the budget will require a two-thirds vote and a lot of them are expecting that to happen today.

Now, if they do not get two-thirds, then the governor can call them back into a special session and, at that time, it will require only a simple majority vote to rescind the Heritage Act. Now, that's what has to happen because the Heritage Act requires a two-thirds vote to change any of these confederate and civil war statutes and monuments around the state.

[13:05:01] And that's what has to happen, Wolf, because if we only remove the flag from the state house, it allows the citadel to -- it will require that the citadel continue to fly that flag in Summerall Chapel. That flag, the people of Charleston, having begging the citadel to please take that flag out of Summerall Chapel. And they have an attorney general's opinion that says because of the Heritage Act they cannot take it out. So, the Heritage Act must be rescinded and the only thing required to rescind that is a simple majority vote. And once that act is rescinded, two-thirds would not be needed to change the locations of the flag or any other civil war confederate member -- memorials.

BLITZER: Yes, I spoke yesterday with Cornell William Brooks, the President of the NAACP. He, himself, is a son (ph) at South Carolina. He said a powerful statement would be if it were unanimously approved by both houses in the South Carolina legislature. I suspect that is not going to happen. But he's right, that would be a powerful statement indeed if it were unanimously approved.

Let's talk a little bit about Mississippi, Congressman. You and I have known each other for a long time. All of a sudden, it's gaining momentum. The Republican House speaker there in Mississippi now calling for his state to change its flag which includes the confederate insignia. We'll show a picture of that. Are you surprised how quickly this momentum seems to be gaining strength?

CLYBURN: Yes, I am surprised of that because, you know, they've had a referendum, statewide a referendum, in Mississippi, and I think it was, like, 60-40 to leave it alone.

But you know what? I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of that 60 percent have no idea that that flag, that insignia that's a part of their flag, is really the battle flag of northern Virginia. They keep thinking that that is the confederate battle -- confederate flag. That's not the confederate flag. And I think that if all the lawmakers and all of the teachers and -- were to begin to teach the correct history, then people will know that they have no reason to be celebrating this flag.

Now, that won't satisfy everybody because there are a lot of people in Mississippi who know exactly what that flag is and that's what they want to celebrate. But one of my best friends in the Congress, and has been a friend of mine for a long, long time, is Congressman Benny Thompson. I would love to see a flag representing Mississippi that Benny Thompson would be comfortable putting by his -- next to his door as we all do, most of us, anyway, in Washington. Because of that emblem engrain -- being embodied in the flag, Benny Thompson does not display that flag at his office door in Washington. And he wants to display the flag. He loves Mississippi. But he would love for Mississippi not to have an emblem that's insulting to the people, many of the people, who come to his office.

BLITZER: Congressman Thompson, by the way, Benny Thompson, of Mississippi is going to be one of my guests later in the SITUATION ROOM today. We'll talk about what you just raised with him. We'll have a serious discussion with him on that as well.

One final quick question is you know the President, President Obama, will be at the memorial service, the funeral services, on Friday together with the first lady and the vice president, Joe Biden. What, specifically, Congressman, do you want to hear the president say? Because he says he's now freer to say what he wants to say on the issue of race relations in the United States.

CLYBURN: Well, you know, I have been talking with President Obama a lot about this issue in recent weeks. We have had the opportunity to talk quite a bit when we were working on his trade package. He called me last Thursday as I worked my way to the (INAUDIBLE) AME church. And he was -- he was shaken. And he knew Representative Pinckney, and he was absolutely shaken by all of this. I think that the president has grown very weary of having to circumvent these issues which a lot of people thought was the appropriate thing for him to do as president of the United States.

But I think he has reached a conclusion that he needs to meet this issue head on and appeal to the good people of South Carolina, the good people of the United States of America to reach out to each other and start turning against each other when you know that you are celebrating something that is not even true and is insulting to a third of your population. You ought to be able to get beyond that and that's a higher number in Mississippi and in Louisiana and in Georgia. Maybe a lesser number in Arkansas and a lesser number in Florida.

[13:10:41] But all of these state flags have embodied in them something that is representative of the civil war and the confederacy. And I believe that the president is going to strike a tone that will help the people of good will, get beyond this issue that is causing so much consternation and is given a certain amount of embolding -- emboldenment, if that's a good word, to these people who celebrate this ill-fated pursuit of something that never really happened.

BLITZER: Yes. You make a good point. In Mississippi, by the way, 40 percent of the population of the state of Mississippi is African- American. 40 percent. Lesser in some of the other states --

CLYBURN: Absolutely.

BLITZER: -- you mentioned. Congressman, thanks so much for joining us.

CLYBURN: Thank you so much for having me.

BLITZER: And this just coming into CNN. EBay now joining Walmart and Sears, deciding to stop selling items that feature the confederate flag. We're going to hear from Walmart's CEO. That's coming up this hour.

And brand new details on what those two escaped prisoners left behind in a hunting cabin. Up next, why authorities think at least one of the escapees could be barefoot right now.

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[13:15:49] BLITZER: Here in the United States, the debate over the confederate flag is growing. Now some businesses are directly weighing in. Walmart, Sears, Kmart and eBay, they've all pledged to stop selling confederate flag merchandise. EBay says, and I'm quoting, "we have decided to prohibit confederate flags and many items containing this image because we believe it has become a contemporary symbol of divisiveness and racism."

Let's go to CNN Money correspondent Cristina Alesci. She's joining us now live from New York.

Cristina, you got a chance to speak with the Walmart CEO. Why did they decide to take this action?

CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN MONEY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, one of the first things that came to my mind was, why was this merchandise not removed years ago, right? Walmart says, look, we have over seven million items and that number is growing. It's simply very difficult for us to keep track of everything that's on all of our websites, in all of our stores. Take a listen to what the CEO had to say himself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOUG MCMILLON, CEO, WALMART: We just don't want to sell products that makes anyone feel uncomfortable and we felt like that was the case. This was the right thing to do.

ALESCI: Were you shocked to see that kind of merchandise on Walmart's platforms?

MCMILLON: I was surprised. Yes.

ALESCI: What was your reaction?

MCMILLON: Let's don't sell it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Cristina, is Walmart planning any changes on guns, for examples, especially after all the horrific gun incidents we've seen here in the U.S. in recent months?

ALESCI: Since it's the largest gun retailer in the country, I would assume that they're going to continue to come under criticism for selling guns. But in Walmart's mind, it's very clear, having been reporting on this company now, that it really divides the gun market into two. One is hunting, the other is assault rifles. Again, here's the CEO on that issue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCMILLON: Our focus, as it relates to firearms, should be hunters and people who shoot sporting clays and things like that. So the types of rifles we sell, the types of ammunition we sell should be curated for those things. And we believe in serving those customers. We have for a long time. And we believe we should continue to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALESCI: Wolf, one's got to think - and, again, having covered this company now, I really do think that they're probably going to have to re-evaluate constantly the kinds of guns they sell. Of course, you know even some hunting guns can qualify as semiautomatics and they can do an extreme amount of damage and massacres, as we have seen. So Walmart's going to keep a close eye on this and I'm going to continue to follow that story.

BLITZER: I'm sure you are. Cristina, we'll stay in close touch with you. Thanks very much for that important interview.

We'll take a quick break. Much more on the confederate flag controversy, much more on what's going on, on that whole issue in the south.

Also we'll update you on what's going on in the search for two escapees, two convicted killers. They're still on the loose, although there are indications authorities may be closing in.

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[13:22:42] BLITZER: Discuss what's going on with Gordon Rhea. He's a criminal defense attorney, a civil war historian, author of "Carrying the Flag." He's joining us live from Charleston. And CNN political commentator, the Democratic strategist, Donna Brazile. She's here with me.

Donna, you're a daughter of the south. You're from Louisiana. I like Clyburn, Congressman Clyburn, I believe you're probably surprised how quickly this is gaining momentum. You've got the Republican governor of South Carolina, Nikki Haley, the two Republican senators, they all came out yesterday very quickly and said, remove the flag.

DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Wolf, I was struck by her leadership because in the past she's been reluctant. As you know, this campaign to remove the flag has been going on for almost a decade led by the NAACP and others. This is a - this is a moral issue. This is not just the regular political partisan issue. It's a moral issue. And I think in honor of the parishioners, those who were murdered and slaughtered in that church that day, I think we should just take it down. It should not be an argument. It should just come down.

BLITZER: Give us a little background on the flag that's flying on the state grounds over there, Gordon, in South Carolina. This was not the flag that was flown during the Civil War. It was a separate flag that was put up, correct me if I'm wrong, in the '60s during the height of the civil rights movement here in the United States, is that right?

GORDON RHEA, HISTORIAN & CIVIL WAR AUTHOR: That's true. It was obviously modeled after the confederate battle flag. And, of course, this is the battle flag of a nation that dedicated to the proposition that all men are not created equal, that some people have the right to own other people and that this concept should be expanded to new territories. And it was also the battle flag of a government that espoused white supremacy ideas and that actually stepped in to enforce those, almost, from the modern point of view, state-sponsored terrorism.

When I grew up in the 1950s and '60s, it was clearly the symbol of anti-civil rights movement. It was clearly the symbol of white supremacist organizations. It has no place on a statehouse.

BLITZER: (INAUDIBLE) -

RHEA: I marched in the march, oh, back in 2000, to get it off of the top of the statehouse. We finally got it to the - on to the grounds of the statehouse and hopefully now we'll see it going forever. I, too, applaud what the politicians in South Carolina are doing today. I think it's going to set a whole new tone for the discussion.

BLITZER: I think everybody is impressed how quickly this is moving in South Carolina.

[13:25:04] Donna, let's talk about your home state of Louisiana, and I think it's about 30 percent African-American, the population of Louisiana. It's one of nine states, we did some research, that still allows that confederate flag to be shown on license plates.

BRAZILE: License plates, yes.

BLITZER: Terry McAuliffe, the governor of Virginia, today said he was removing it. In Texas the supreme court said they can remove it. Why is it still allowed in Louisiana?

BRAZILE: Because as you know, there's a resistance to taking down those what I call symbols of the past, symbols of so-called heritage and one's family's history. I think we, in Louisiana, like Mississippi and Alabama and North Carolina and other states, it's time that we move beyond what the past represented to us and I would hope that Governor Jindal and others would begin to take that leadership role in Louisiana. It will be difficult. I can tell you. Many days I've driven in Louisiana - I'm going home next week - and I can tell you, the - not just the license plates, but people riding in trucks and cars with flags all over and I'm - I applaud Walmart and others for taking the flags out of their stores.

BLITZER: Well, let me ask - let me ask Gordon Rhea about that.

Gordon, all these big retailers like Walmart and these others we mentioned removing the sale of these confederate flags. That's - it's - I guess it's pretty surprising how quickly this is happening as well. You're a son of the south.

RHEA: I am a son of the south. As a matter of fact, my great granddaddy was a confederate captain. He was a slaveholder. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with what he stood for. As a matter of fact, I think it was abominable and I think it's time that southerners stop and face their history. I'm so glad that Walmart and other companies are doing what they've doing. Traditionally in the south, they've always said, well, you know, it wasn't about slavery, it was about state's rights. But if you ask what rights of the states was it about, it was about the right to have slaves. People also talk about this is a heritage issue. It is a heritage issue, but it is a hateful heritage. It's a cause, a confederacy that no one can be proud of. I'm glad we're having this conversation and the flag's got to go.

BLITZER: Let me quickly, Donna, get your thoughts on the president of the United States in that interview in that podcast over the weekend. He was speaking freely about race relations in America and he said this. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I guess the last thing is you lose - you lose fear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right.

OBAMA: I was talking to somebody the other day about why I actually think I'm a better president and would be a better candidate if I were running again than I ever have been. And it's sort of like an athlete. You might slow down a little bit, you might not jump as high as you used to -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

OBAMA: But I know what I'm doing and I'm fearless.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: "I'm fearless," he said. And he also, in a bit of controversy, used the n-word as part of that fearless new President Obama dealing with these sensitive issues. Your reaction.

BRAZILE: Well, I saw the president recently, Wolf, and, you know, I went up to him and I said, "Mr. President, I have your back." And he said, "you have my back?" And I said, "yes, sir." And he said, "ah.' And, you know, there's a - there's a rhythm in him now. There's something I did not see six years ago or even six months ago. And I don't know what it is. But what I feel is his inner strength. The belief that he's doing right by the American people and he's, I think, frustrated to the point that he wants to speak out on some of these important issues. And I'm glad he tried to make the point. Many people went past him. They didn't understand. They got focused on the word and not the meaning. And that's part of the problem.

BLITZER: Do you have a probably with the use of the word as opposed to just saying the n-word?

BRAZILE: Let me just say something. I got my butt whipped by my parents when I tried to use it as a child, so I was cured early on because my parents taught us that is the word that is used to dehumanize my father, my grandfathers, my mother and my grandmother. So we were told never to use that word and I don't use it.

BLITZER: Yes.

BRAZILE: And I don't listen to music that often uses the word. But the president was trying to make a point and I'm glad that he made it but, unfortunately, it went right above some people and they focused on point.

But I just want to say, I have a brother in South Carolina after Katrina and three nephews. They're my youngest. I don't want nothing to happen to them. I can pray every day of my life, but those are young boys and they want to be men. I know them. I want them to grow up in a country, unlike the country my parents grew up in, my grandparents and me. I want them to be free of all of this. And I will work for them. I will work for them.

BLITZER: I'm sure you will.

Donna, thank you very much.

All right, Donna Brazile, Gordon Rhea, thanks very much. We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back.

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