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Wolf

New Details in Hunt for Escaped Convicts in New York; Lyle Mitchell Opens Up on Wife, Escape; Escaped Convicts Leave Clues Behind in Cabin; Can Vietnam War Lessons Help Us Understand Violence in Iraq. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired June 23, 2015 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[13:33:23] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer, reporting from Washington.

We have some breaking news we're following in the hunt for those two escaped killers in Upstate New York. A law enforcement source telling CNN the two fugitives were caught by surprise after breaking into a cabin in an area west of the prison about 20 miles or so away and that apparently -- that apparently caused them to leave a number of personal items behind. We also have new details on the tools the killers apparently used to cut through steel-cell walls. It turns out they may have been smuggled into the prison in a frozen block of meat.

Let's go to CNN's Boris Sanchez on the ground at the police command post in Cadyville, New York.

Boris, tell us what you've learned about the items these two fugitives may have left behind at that hunting cabin.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, we learned they left behind a number of personal items at that cabin that was broken into over the weekend where DNA was found that matched Richard Matt and David Sweat. We know they left behind a pair of boots, sources tell us, that means one of the inmates could be barefoot but we don't know if he picked up another pair of boots or shoes at the cabin. If he is, it has to be very difficult. The weather very gloomy. It's been raining most of the day considering, the fact he's moving around the Adirondack Mountains, a terrain that's rugged. It has to be difficult out there. We've heard it's difficult for investigators, a source telling CNN the weather is slowing down the investigation -- Wolf?

[13:34:58] BLITZER: There's also been some new information on how the tools may have been smuggled into the prison. What have you learned?

SANCHEZ: Some bizarre details there, Wolf, investigators tell us it's likely the tools were brought to the inmates into their cell through a frozen package of hamburger meat. In the honor block, the inmates are allowed to cook their own meals so it wouldn't have been out of place for the inmates to find their own food. It's believed Joyce Mitchell convinced a guard at the prison to pass the meat through without going through a metal detector. Investigators are looking at that as a probable method of getting the tools inside to the inmates.

BLITZER: It's still hard to believe two convicted murderers are allowed in that so-called Honor Block where they get special privileges at that maximum security prison but I guess they did exactly that.

Boris, thanks very much. Boris Sanchez reporting from the scene of this investigation.

The husband, by the way, of Joyce Mitchell spoke to NBC's Matt Lauer about his wife and her alleged role in the inmates' escape plan. Lyle Mitchell says he was caught completely off guard about the allegations that his wife, the prison tailor, had a part, a significant part, in the plan. And he describes what happened when he learned they were both wanted for questioning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT LAUER, NBC HOST: What was her reaction and what was your reaction?

LYLE MITCHELL, HUSBAND OF JOYCE MITCHELL: I couldn't believe it. Her reaction, when I ask her, she said, "They really escaped." And I left it at that.

LAUER: You've known her for 21 years. You looked in her eyes? Nothing seemed unusual --

MITCHELL: Nothing.

LAUER: -- about her expression or her demeanor?

MITCHELL: I said, "Do they want to talk to us because we know them, to help out? So we went right to the police barracks and asked, "You want to talk to us, Lyle and Joyce Mitchell." And they said, "Yes, we have."

LAUER: So at that point, while you had no reason to ask your wife, "Do you know anything about this escape?"

MITCHELL: No, no, nope.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: We'll have more on the manhunt for these two killers. That's coming up. Will the new clues, the DNA evidence found at that hunting cabin help police find the fugitives?

Stay with us. Much more coming up.

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[13:40:52] BLITZER: We're following new developments in the hunt for the two escaped killers in Upstate New York. A law enforcement source telling CNN the two fugitives were caught by surprise after breaking into a cabin in an area west of the prison. That apparently caused them to leave personal items behind, including a pair of boots.

Let's discuss what's going on with our law enforcement analyst, the former FBI assistant director, Tom Fuentes.

Tom, if these two guys were there and sort of ran away, the authorities have to be close. They have to be getting closer and closer if they're still together in that general vicinity 20 or 30 miles from the prison.

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I would think so, Wolf. If they ran out the door barefoot, if they left boots behind or had no other protection --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: I can't believe they would run out barefoot. They would run out with another pair, maybe have other shoes.

FUENTES: Maybe somebody left gear in that cabin for when they come and they upgraded.

BLITZER: You know that upstate, Adirondacks area. You can't run around barefoot up there.

FUENTES: No, you would need footwear or you would have your feet cut open from walking barefoot, then it gets infected and, if you don't get help, you die out there. So maybe they upgraded. Maybe whoever owned that cabin had boots and other gear stored there that could help them.

BLITZER: What else will they be looking for other than the DNA evidence that apparently they found? What else will they be looking for to give them clues not only on where they may have gone, which obviously would be good, but who may have helped them?

FUENTES: Well, they'll have trouble finding that kind of information. If they left papers behind, if they did leave in a hurry and they had a map that showed exactly where they're going to or who they're going to contact or phone numbers, sure, that would be tremendous. But even just having the DNA in the first place is great. But the other problem with this is that we haven't heard the exact timeline, how long did it take them to get the perimeter set up from the time they ran out the back door of this cabin into the woods and down the road? You know, it takes time to get hundreds of police officers to set up a perimeter around a deeply wooded area. And during that time, could they have gotten out? Could the current perimeter not have them?

BLITZER: But what may be more significant than the personnel on the ground -- and you've done this -- is if helicopters flying overhead, they've got infrared devices that may be able to find, heat-seeking -- some indications these guys are actually out there. That potentially could be more important.

FUENTES: It could. But we've heard about the bad weather at night up there, the torrential rain and thunderstorms. So the question is how many hours could the helicopters fly? What time of day and would that have given them enough time to get out? At the time they were originally spotted, in the morning on Saturday, they had all day to get out. And the infrared equipment isn't as helpful during the daytime as it is at night.

BLITZER: What do you make of this report that CNN broke the news that they smuggled in some of the tools they may have used to get out in this frozen meat package, or whatever, that didn't go through metal detectors?

FUENTES: I would work that backwards. How big of a hunk of meet can you bring into your cell or the tailor shop. What do you do with a large piece of meat? How --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: And if there's a saw there, can you get through concrete or steel with a saw like that?

FUENTES: From what we've heard -- the only thing we've heard about up to now is small tools, small drill bits, a hacksaw or something. I've said cutting through the large foot-wide concrete walls and pipes, if you only have small hand tools, you know, that's like trying to cut a tree down with a steak knife. That would be a big challenge.

BLITZER: I know you have a theory, and I don't know if there's any evidence to it. that maybe they didn't even do that. That somebody from the outside went through that manhole and got through, snaked his way into the area outside the cell, and it was there that they managed to cut through and break through that steel, that concrete and get these guys out. In other words, they had help from the outside. That's a theory.

FUENTES: it's just that. It's a theory because of the size of the tools. Could they have gotten those tools and used them from the inside to go out through the wall, or if they had partners, either contractors or other employees of the prison, could they have come in and sawed their way to them, make that hole --

(CROSSTALK)

[14:45:00] BLITZER: That makes sense because there's if a lot of construction going on in that Clinton Correctional Facility, it's an old facility, and certainly during the day you're hearing pounding going on -- this is what people are saying who are at the prison, you're' hearing a lot of noise all the time.

FUENTES: That's true. The other problem is that if someone cut their way in, they would have left hairs, fibers, DNA evidence. Maybe they cut themselves on the wall when they were coming in the tunnel through the wall. Unfortunately, the governor chose to take a camera crew and go through that hole and down the wall and may have taken evidence with them when they went through. That was a crime scene that was not protected.

BLITZER: It should have been protected.

FUENTES: Yeah.

BLITZER: Well, you live and learn.

Thanks very much, Tom, for that. Tom Fuentes helping us better appreciate what's going on.

Up next, the war in Iraq has drawn comparisons to another military conflict in America's history. We're talking about the war in Vietnam. Can we draw lessons from the Vietnam War to help us better appreciate the violence in Iraq? Stay with us.

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BLITZER: Thursday night, CNN's documentary series "The Seventies" takes a close look at one of the grimmest chapters of U.S. history, the Vietnam War, the sudden and tragic way in which the conflict ended, a defining and unforgettable moment for anyone who lived through it.

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UNIDENTIFIED NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They took off for the carriers waiting in the South China Sea. There was no room, so the navy men ordered the pilots to ditch in the ocean.

NEIL SHEEHAN, FORMER NEW YORK TIMES JOURNALIST: We were living in a period of what the Greeks called hubris, over-weaning pride. This was this eighth-grade military power. How were they going to defeat us?

[13:50:12] DAN RATHER, FORMER CBS EVENING NEWS ANCHOR: Once it became a reality, seeing the pictures on television, a disorderly retreat, and that ate within ourselves, this is not who we thought we were.

WINSTON LORD, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO CHINA & FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO HENRY KISSINGER: To see what was in store for the South Vietnamese people, to see the people struggling to get out and the horrible triage and choices that had to be made was clearly one of the lows in my life.

UNIDENTIFIED NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Communist forces, some of them riding in Russia-made tanks, some in captured American Jeeps, rolled into Saigon about three and a half hours after the end of the dramatic American evacuation of U.S. nationals and many South Vietnamese.

WALTER CRONKITE, FORMER CBS EVENING NEWS ANCHOR: There's no way to capture one evening's broadcast, the suffering and grief of thirty years of a subcontinent of war. There's no way to capture the suffering and grief of our own nation, from the most divisive conflict since our own Civil War.

In Vietnam, we finally reached the end of the tunnel and there is no light there. What is there, perhaps, was best said by President Ford, "a war that is finished."

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BLITZER: And Winston Lord is joining us now, a former special assistant to Henry Kissinger, former U.S. ambassador to China, played a very key role in the negotiations that aimed at ending the Vietnam War, the peace agreement.

Ambassador, thanks very much for joining us.

Very quickly, just remind our viewers here in the United States and around the world how that defeat for the United States and Vietnam changed America.

LORD: Well, there was some short-term impacts and long-term impacts. Very quickly, of course, overseas, it had a terrible tragic impact on the Indochina people with the brutality of North Vietnam and Vietcong. On the other hand, the dominoes did not fall. Indonesia and other countries might have gone Communist. Whatever the terrible cost of the war, we did buy time for stability in Southeast Asia. Thirdly, overseas, I think it tempted the Soviet Union and Cuba to understand some adventures in Africa and Afghanistan, perceiving some American weakness. Ironically, that helped to bring down the Soviet Empire when they went into Afghanistan. Most importantly -- and this is on the impact of the American people -- in the short term, the opening to China, the talks with the Soviet Union, Middle East diplomacy, put this terrible withdrawal and defeat in a corner of Southeast Asia in the perspective of the bigger geopolitical events and helped with the pain and angst of our withdrawal and showed that America can still work on the world stage. Finally, of course, there was a great reluctance to get involved in combat in what was civil conflicts or perceived to be civil conflicts, and that's been with us ever since, although, that's also been partly overtaken by 9/11 and the threat of terrorism.

BLITZER: There's been a lot of comparisons recently between the Vietnam War and the war in Iraq. All of a sudden, we're hearing words like "mission creep," "the loss of blood and treasure," "a never- ending conflict." Are those comparisons fair, what happened in Vietnam and what's happening now in Iraq from the U.S. perspective?

LORD: There are some parallels and obviously some differences. That was in a different kind of war and it was a different context of the bipolar Cold War against the Russians and with China looming. And now, of course, you have conflicts taking place essentially within states rather than across borders. There is a similarity that I already mentioned. You've got to be careful involved in trying to manipulate forces within a country that are going to separate out the solutions for themselves.

Now, having said that, we should remember that the Vietnam War was not just a civil war. There was a tremendous invasion from North Vietnam, which kept it going and which broke the peace agreement, unlike Iraq, where you don't have that, and you don't have a North Vietnam with sanctuaries in Laos and Cambodia.

And finally, in the case of Vietnam, although we greatly supported it and shed blood for South Vietnam, after the peace agreement, we cut off aid, we didn't respond to North Vietnamese invasion, and we letdown our ally. If it had any chance at all, it was lost because we cut off military and economic assistance, whereas, in Iraq the jury is still out whether the Iraq government and the people can muster enough domestic support to defeat the enemy.

[13:55:00] BLITZER: Very quickly, Ambassador, for those of us who lived through the horrendous video, the pictures that we saw with the U.S. embassy in Saigon being taken over, the helicopters removing the U.S. diplomats, all of those people dying in the process of that evacuation, can you envision a similar, horrific scene happening in Baghdad around the U.S. embassy, the so-called Green Zone right now?

LORD: No, I don't think so. I believe the situations are entirely different. But that was a very painful time, of course, in all of our lives, the fall of Saigon. And whatever the shortcomings of the Saigon government, it was nothing compared to the brutality of the people who took over. And whatever the isolated, terrible My Lai incidents, they were an exception for us, whereas, the North Vietnamese and Vietcong perpetrated My Lais every day.

The other part that was so terrible about the fall of Saigon was I think the peace agreement could have worked for several reasons if we had maintained assistance to South Vietnam. We thought that the Chinese and Russians would help limit aggression. We thought economic assistance to North Vietnam would make them take their time. So we were not naive about their intentions. But any chance we had of the peace agreement holding up was undercut by the mood in this country and, of course, the looming crisis of Watergate.

BLITZER: A lot of lessons to be learned from that.

Winston Lord, thank you for joining us.

And to our viewers here in the U.S. and around the world, don't miss "The Seventies: The Dramatic End to the Vietnam War." It will air this Thursday night, 9:00 eastern and pacific, only here on CNN.

That's it for me. I'll see you back here at 5:00 p.m. eastern in "The Situation Room."

The news continues right after a quick break.

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