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South Carolina's Confederate Flag Now In Museum; South Carolina Shooter Should Not Have Been Cleared To Buy Gun; Confederate Flag Removal; Interview with Gov. Nikki Haley; Interview with Rep. John Lewis. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired July 10, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: You're looking now at a live picture out of San Francisco. This is where the shooting death of a woman, allegedly by an undocumented immigrant who'd been deported five times, has fueled the immigration debate. The sheriff is expected to hold a news conference in just a moment, and we are monitoring that.

And you're also looking at a live picture coming to us from New York where we expect a welcoming ceremony any moment at city hall for the Women's World Soccer Champions Team USA.

And right now, you're looking at a live picture from Bolivia. This is where the pope is about to leave for Paraguay, the next stop in his South American trip.

Hi there, I'm Brianna Keilar in for Wolf Blitzer. It is 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 p.m. in London, and 7:00 p.m. in Vienna. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks so much for joining us.

And we begin with breaking news. For the first time in 54 years, the confederate battle flag no longer flies on the statehouse grounds in the state of South Carolina.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWD: (Cheering).

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KEILAR: At a brief ceremony this morning led by Governor Nikki Haley, the flag came down as thousands of on-lookers cheered. The decision to remove the flag followed the church shootings in Charleston after a photo surfaced of the suspect with the confederate flag. Lawmakers followed the lead of Governor Haley, they passed a law calling for its removal from the statehouse grounds and it's now being housed in a museum.

After the ceremony, President Obama tweeted, South Carolina taking down the confederate, a signal of good will and healing and a meaningful step towards a better future. South Carolina Congressman James Clyburn added his own thoughts. He said, I look forward to the citizens of South Carolina being under one flag, the American flag.

Joining us now from Columbia, South Carolina, we have CNN's Don Lemon. And, Don, you had the first interview with Nikki Haley really just a short time ago after the flag came down. What did she say?

DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: She said a lot in that interview and it was probably the most personal interview that I have seen of her where, you know, you interview governors and lawmakers and, you know, they come off as politicians. She did not come off as a politician at all in this interview. She came off as someone who is very, very human and was very, very touched by this.

And I think the one word that she said was -- that I can say about this interview, I think, that she learned from this was empathy. Empathy. How to walk in someone else's shoes. And she thinks that's what this is a lesson in. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: It's important for people to know what it's like to be in another person's shoes. And if you watch the legislative debate, that's what happened. People put themselves in each other's shoes, so they understood what the respect of tradition and heritage was and that it wasn't about hate.

But the other side also learned how painful that flag was and the pain that it was causing people. That's what brought South Carolina to this new day was the ability to look at each other and listen and say, it's time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Yes. So, again, that is what she's saying, walking in someone else's shoes. And that's what she wants people to know about her experience. She said that she has really changed after the shooting here and after what she learned from -- and the process of having this flag taken down -- Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, Don Lemon, stand by for just a moment. And we'll looking for the rest of your interview a little later here.

We have some breaking news right now on the shooting deaths of nine people inside of that Charleston, South Carolina church, the murders that led to today's removal of the flag in Columbia.

CNN's Justice Correspondent Pamela Brown joining me now on the phone. What have you learned, Pamela?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, Brianna, a remarkable admission from the FBI director, James Comey, today during a round table with reporters. He said that the FBI made a mistake and the shooter in South Carolina, Dylann Roof, should have never been able to purchase the gun that was used in the slaughter. [13:05:11] He is taking responsibility for what he considers is really

a breakdown in the system. He said that what happened was back in April, when Dylann Roof went to purchase the gun in Columbia, South Carolina, in West Columbia, South Carolina, the FBI was tasked to do the background check because South Carolina is one of the states that relies on the FBI to do that.

Two days after Dylann Roof went in to purchase the gun, an FBI examiner, on the work day, on a Monday, took up the case. And there was confusion with paperwork is the best way to describe it, Brianna. There was confusion with paperwork in the system, so the charge that he had, having possession or manufactured or distribution of drugs, only showed up. And the arresting agency, Columbia police, was not on there. And so, essentially, he explained it that the FBI examiner contacted the wrong agencies, never actually talked to the agency, Columbia police, who made the arrest because of this confusion with the paperwork.

Had the examiner talked to Columbia police and seen in that police report that he admitted to have possessing drugs, he would have never been able to pass the background check and would have never been able to purchase a gun in April at that store in west Columbia, South Carolina that he then later used to commit the murders of those nine people in the South Carolina church.

He said that this makes everyone feel sick at the FBI. He says it's heart breaking. He said that there are FBI officials down in South Carolina that are meeting with the family today explaining to them what happened here and what the FBI plans to do to address these issues. He said he has ordered a full review of the procedures, of the training to see what can be done in the future to make sure this never happens again -- Brianna.

KEILAR: So, basically, Pamela, the FBI should have checked with Columbia police, with local police --

BROWN: Yes.

KEILAR: -- and followed up because they knew, right, that he'd been arrested.

BROWN: Right.

KEILAR: But they didn't know the details of it.

BROWN: But that was not enough. The fact of -- right. So, -- exactly. The fact that he had been arrested on a felony drug charge was not enough to deny the transaction. But had there been communication with Columbia police, the FBI would have then known he admitted to possessing drugs. And that would have made him an unlawful drug user which would have prohibited him from being able to buy a gun.

Apparently, what happened here is that, as director Comey said, he said, essentially, we got the geography wrong in South Carolina. And the contact information for Columbia police was not on a certain piece of paper that this examiner was looking at for Lexington County. And so, the examiner actually called West Columbia Police Department. West Columbia said, we don't know anything about this. The case was in the system as delayed-pending.

And as you know, you have three days, you know, to go through the background check. And after that, either it's approved, it's denied or there is delayed-pending. It's up to the discretion of the gun shops whether or not to sell a gun to someone if the status is delayed-pending. In this case, the gun shop decided to allow Dylann Roof to buy the gun with his status as delayed-pending. They have the discretion to do that. And that is what happened.

And as director Comey said today, had the -- his -- had his police report been in the system as under Columbia police and not Lexington County Sheriff's Office, which is what it was under, he said, we wouldn't be sitting here today. He would have never been able to purchase that gun. So, it was really, as he said, a combination of highly improbable factors that came together that led to this really heartbreaking situation knowing that these mistakes were made and that Dylann Roof was able to buy a gun and use that in these horrific murders. And he should have never been able to buy that gun in the first place -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Pamela, that is almost unbelievable.

I want to bring in Don Lemon. I know that he's been talking to some family members. I mean, Don, the --

LEMON: Yes.

KEILAR: -- details of that, what we just heard Pamela report, that it was really just a matter of days, if not hours, and that this was some sort of paperwork mess-up that permitted Dylann Roof to purchase the gun that he used at Mother Emanuel. What are you hearing?

LEMON: Yes. Well, the information all started coming out, at least to me, about an hour ago because I had been speaking to families who were here at this ceremony to take the flag down today. And what they conveyed to me is that, really, on their drive back to Charleston, on their drives back to Charleston, that they were getting phone calls from the FBI with the FBI apologizing to them for making this mistake. And that the agency was going to own the mistake, saying, again, Pamela is correct in her reporting.

[13:10:13] But imagine what this day is like for the families. They had this emotional high that because -- sadly, because of their -- in part because of their family's death, that this flag, this symbol of hate, has come down. But, then, to get that phone call, you know, saying this could have all been avoided had the proper channels or if it wasn't for this snafu.

Also, as Pamela has been reporting, more information coming from a source. This source says, again, Pamela reported some of this, that Roof did have a drug charge and that he did disclose it on his gun application. Apparently, he put the Columbia, West Columbia, the source is not sure where, information in there. The person at the gun shop called Richland or -- Richland or Lexington and was told that they did not have any warrants.

The gun shop also called the solicitor's office and the source says apparently the gun shop did not call the right place and was not informed of the drug charge. The source says, this is a source who's very close to the investigation, says, if the gun shop, particularly the big vendors, do not hear back within 72 hours that there is a problem with an application, they will sell the weapon. The source also says that the deputy assistant G.A. told him that the law had been followed and as for the sale of -- as far as the sale of the gun went. He also says that he was told by the agency that the agency is going to own all of this.

Again, this information coming from the FBI and also coming from a source close to the investigation and from family members who are getting phone calls from the FBI explaining to them what's going on on the same day as this flag comes down here in South Carolina -- Brianna.

KEILAR: I want to bring Pamela Brown back in. So, Pamela, to understand this correctly, it appears that on the application, Dylann Roof did disclose that he had this gun charge but the information he gave the gun shop led them in the wrong direction for checking on it, right? And then, we understand that it was really up to, who? The FBI, the federal government, within that 72 hours, to respond and they didn't?

BROWN: So, I can't speak to whether or not he disclosed that in the actual paperwork he filled out initially. What I can tell you is director Comey said he did hand over, you know, the necessary items that the gun shop needed in order for the background check to begin. And what the FBI examiner did was immediately go to the South Carolina court system Web site. And then, all of a sudden, there popped up Dylann Roof's, you know, criminal history and the fact that he had this drug -- felony drug charge from March 1st.

But, again, that is not enough to deny someone a transaction. So, it was up to the examiner to do the due diligence to find out why he was charged with that and what the circumstances were. And this system -- and this is where it gets a little confusing. In the system, it was under the Lexington County sheriff's office where his arrest was -- charge was coming from, not the Columbia Police Department. So, that's where the confusion began.

The examiner --

KEILAR: But basically, Pamela, it appears that the FBI examiner did not do the full investigation needed or the full looking at all of the facts and finding all of the facts within this 72-hour window, right?

BROWN: Well, and at the time, the FBI examiner thought, apparently, according to director Comey, that she did do everything she was supposed to do because what happened was the Lexington sheriff's office said, it's not us. You need to contact Columbia police. But on the contact sheet, and this is where Comey said, clearly, we need to go back and look how our procedures are. On the Lexington County contact sheet, there was only a listing for West Columbia police. So, this examiner called West Columbia police. They said, we don't have any record of this. The examiner called the Lexington County prosecutor's office but, apparently, never heard back. That is why his status was -- it was a delayed-pending status. And if it's delayed-pending, it can still -- the transaction can be approved after the three days.

So, this gun shop, following -- you know, using this discretion that is allowed under federal law, saw that it was delayed-pending and moved forward with the transaction to allow Dylann Roof to buy this gun. And we were told that that trans -- that it was never an approved status because the FBI had never heard back from the Lexington County prosecutor's office.

And unbeknownst to the -- to the examiner, you know, it wasn't until after the shooting that I think they realized that, oh, we contacted the wrong department. We were supposed to contact Columbia police but because that contact information wasn't on the sheet, they were never reached out to.

And so, it was just -- really, it's a confluence of issues here and, clearly, a big breakdown in the system. And director Comey said, you know, we are looking at a full review here. We are looking at everything to make sure this doesn't happen again.

[13:15:07] He also said he spoke to that examiner and said obviously she is just heartbroken and really struggling with it, knowing that this was someone that should have never been able to purchase a gun. And not only that, the way he used that gun to kill those nine innocent people.

Brianna.

KEILAR: It is unbelievable. Pamela Brown, thanks for your report.

Stay with us. We'll be back in just a moment. We want to talk about emotions running high, not just in South Carolina, but also on Capitol Hill. There was an emotional speech. Congressman John Lewis saying the fight is far from over. And he'll be telling you why, next.

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KEILAR: I want to go to our breaking news now. South Carolina's confederate flag is now in a museum. Don Lemon joining us again live from Columbia, South Carolina.

Don, this is a big day and it was pretty amazing to see all of those cheering crowds there to watch this brief ceremony where the flag came down. And you also just - just about an hour after this flag came down, you were able to interview Governor Nikki Haley who - who really sort of spearheaded some of this.

[13:20:18] LEMON: Yes, it wasn't even an hour. It was maybe 15 minutes afterwards. Just enough time to walk over and for her to walk down to the office. It was very shortly after she led this very emotional ceremony. And not only an emotional day for her, but, of course, for the families. She had family members with her who, by the way, with our other piece of breaking news, getting phone calls from the FBI today alerting them of the new information that Dylann Roof should not even have been in the position to purchase a gun. You'll have more on that later.

But I want to tell you about my interview with the governor, Nikki Haley, who - she said she didn't really have a change of heart about the flag. She said it was just time and that, you know, taking it down had not come up, at least while she had been in office. But she said that she's a changed person by this. She also talked about wanting to carry on Clementa Pinckney's legacy as well. And she talked to me about herself being profiled as the child of immigrants who grew up - she grew up, at least, in South Carolina. Take a listen.

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GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: We grew up an Indian family in a small town in South Carolina. My father wears a turban. My mother, at the time, wore a sari. It was hard growing up in South Carolina. Be what I've always been proud of and what I've worked towards is to make sure that today is better than yesterday and that my kids don't go through what we went through. And now I feel good because now I know my kids can look up and there won't be a flag and it will be one less reason to divide and it will be more reasons for us to come together.

LEMON: Now, as I understand, you went up and looked over at the flag in the capital this morning and it was important for you to do that. Why?

HALEY: I just needed to see it one last time. I needed - I wanted to remember the moment. You know, so much of this has been a whirlwind over the last several weeks and it's been extremely emotional, but I just needed to see what was about to happen.

The one thing that has gotten me through this was Ethel Lance used to sing a song all the time and it would say, "one day at a time, sweet Jesus. Give me the strength to do every day what I have to do." That's what's kept me going. That's what will continue to keep me - let's not worry about anything else, but just to continue to get the strength to do what I have to do.

LEMON: Because we still - we see people still driving around with the flag. We still - you know, when we were out there today, people were saying, you know, America is under attack and that sort of thing. Does that bother - does that concern you?

HALEY: No. You know, there's always going to be people that say things. The point is, we don't need to give them one more reason to say it. That flag is not on the grounds of the statehouse anymore, so it's one less thing for us to talk about.

LEMON: Fifty-seven percent of people, and this is a CNN/ORC poll, of Americans view the flag as a symbol of southern pride and not racism. Is that surprising to you?

HALEY: No, because it - a lot of the people - and if you had heard the debate in the statehouse, so many of them look at it as honoring ancestors who fought and died for their state. That's the way they look at it. You look at people - and this really is confederate proponents, they're not haters. They're not - you know, you've got people who will hijack it -

LEMON: Who use the flag as a symbol of hate, right?

HALEY: Right. And so - but what we have to remember is that people are using it as a symbol of hate and it is something that causes people pain because it's a reminder of a time that was painful. So, you know, what we have to do is remain the pro-confederate citizens, look, we're not trying to take away your heritage, we're not trying to take away the family members that sacrificed. What we are trying to do is not give people reason to hurt. And we are all responsible for that. We all have to play a role in that.

LEMON: You're a public servant and, you know, I think most people realize this, that that flag is just a piece of cloth, right, but it did represent to a lot of people pain, right, and - hurt and pain. The way to continue, I've heard people say, the legacy or to better things is to continue the legacy of Clementa Pinckney and for the issues that he fought for. How will you do that?

HALEY: I want to really focus on education. You know, you're going to see me - I always did anti-bullying tours through schools. Now I'm going to talk about race. And now I want to talk about why we brought the flag down. I want to talk about the Emanuel Nine. So I'm going to do that through our schools because I think it's important for children to understand while they're still pure the goodness of all of that.

But, you know, there's going to be other things. We had actually started in South Carolina making many changes. We changed the way we fund education so that we acknowledge poverty so now every child, regardless of where they live, deserves a good education and now can get one. We were the first state in the country to put a body cam bill. You know, there's certain things that we have done that have been a natural progression to this.

[13:25:00] LEMON: But I wanted - you're going to talk about race now. Is that going to - are you taking race as part of your platform? Is that going to be part of your platform?

HALEY: I'm going to take bringing South Carolina together as part of my platform. That this should not be one day in time. That this should be the start of a conversation which is why South Carolina handled it so gracefully. Why did the citizens come together and not protest? What made South Carolina so special across this country that people said, wow. I want those kids to know that because they've got to carry that on. They now have to carry that forward.

LEMON: So as you're out there today, you know, you went up and you stood over the capital this morning, the statehouse, and you looked out at the flag. You said you wanted to see it for the first time. But as you're with those families and you're hearing people yelling, "bring down this flag," "it's got to go," what are you thinking as a person who's leading this state and leading this ceremony?

HALEY: My thought was, I hope this gives those families a little bit of peace. That was - that was - has always been my prayer is that I hope this gives them some peace. And I hope this allows our state to heal. And I hope - the grief of this tragedy is going to last for a really long time. I don't see it going away any time soon. But I hope this allows our state to come together and heal.

LEMON: Getting a shout-out from the president of the United States nationally in a eulogy, are you concerned about that in a solidly red state? Does that help you or hurt you in (INAUDIBLE)?

HALEY: No, I don't worry about that. You know, the act of bringing down this flag was not a Republican or Democrat thing. It wasn't a black or white thing. I mean if you look at the debate, you wouldn't have divided it along party lines or racial lines. People who wanted the flag down were all types of people. If you look around the state, so many different people, young, old, wanted to see this happen. What I hope is that this happening in South Carolina sets the tone for the country, which is a tone of, be kinder than necessary. Let's do more for each other. Let's not always fight over everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: A Republican governor in the state of South Carolina talking about making race, at least a conversation about it, part of her platform as a politician and as governor here, and also sharing a very personal story that you'll hear later, Brianna, about an experience she had growing up with her father. She said her father, who wears a turban, her mom, who wore a head scarf, their experience, what she calls racial profiling, that's coming up.

KEILAR: Did she say anything else, Don, about her own thoughts on the flag itself? She seemed to really acknowledge both sides of the debate here. What did she say about her thoughts personally?

LEMON: It really was a sort of a political tightrope that she was walking, right, because there were people here in the state and really around the country because they knew she's a representative of what's happening throughout especially the south when it comes to this confederate flag and they're watching her and she said, you know, I do have - she did have an opinion about it and there is, as you know, this debate that is going on in Congress about whether this flag should be flown on cemeteries that are - national cemeteries or on national malls and museums. Here's what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALEY: A flag is living and breathing and so it represents something. I think it should be in any museum setting. I think it should be at Fort Sumter. I think it should be in those places of historical settings. Not in places that represent all people. You know, if someone wants to travel to see it, that's one thing, but it shouldn't be in front of someone's face to where they have to feel it.

LEMON: But should it fly at those? Do you think it should be - HALEY: In museums -

LEMON: Yes.

HALEY: I mean at museums, if they want to have it, absolutely. That's where historical things should be. But present things, going in the future, that's different.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And that's where this flag will be, in a museum for relics of the Civil War and for war relics as well.

Brianna.

KEILAR: Don Lemon in Columbia, South Carolina. Thank you so much.

And joining me now to talk about the significance of the flag's removal, we have Democratic Congressman John Lewis of Georgia. He is a pioneer of the civil rights movement, and we have CNN political commentator Donna Brazile.

Congressman Lewis, I want you to give me your perspective here. You were the only living speaker from the 1963 March on Washington. You fought for civil rights and continue to do so. How did you feel watching this happen today?

REP. JOHN LEWIS (D), GEORGIA: I felt very, very moved and, at the same time, inspired to see what was happening today in the state of South Carolina. To see the hundreds and thousands of people there, moving together, cheering together, singing with state officials, city officials, county officials, just a multitude of people was a moment of happiness, a moment of joy. To see the flag come down, I almost cried.

[13:30:03] It reminded me of another period when I was in Africa back in 1964, in Zambia, to see the British flag come down and a Zambia flag go up. It was a day of independence.