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Series of Explosions in China; GOP's John Kasich Moving Up in the Polls; Pro-ISIS Hacking Group Sends Grim Message to U.S. Military; ISIS Shake Iraq Capital with Truck Bomb, Does U.S. Have Good Plan for Fighting ISIS; Debate over What Is Biggest Threat to U.S. Aired 1:30- 2p ET

Aired August 13, 2015 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:12] DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: Fires are still burning in China a day after a series of explosions so powerful they could be seen from space. New drone video captures an apocalyptic scene in Tianjin. At least 50 people, including 12 firefighters, are confirmed dead. Hundreds of others are injured.

Here is what it sounded like when the blast went off.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SHOUTING)

(EXPLOSION)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the!

(EXPLOSION)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Holy (EXPLETIVE DELETED)! No (EXPLETIVE DELETED) way! (EXPLETIVE DELETED no! Dangerous. Oh, my god!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you filming?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I'm filming.

(SCREAMING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Wow. The explosions are coming from a warehouse storing hazardous chemical materials. The giant fireball lighting up the night sky. People who filmed it and felt it thought they were experiencing an earthquake. The shock waves smashing buildings, sparking fires more than a mile away.

CNN's chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto, joins us now.

You lived in China. You spent a lot of time there. You understand the country and its infrastructure. How much of a danger is this?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: There have been a series of disasters really. You had a high-speed train crash in 2011 killed a lot of people. Of course you had the 2008 earthquake in Sichuan, which is a natural disaster. Schools collapsed, houses collapsed, really increased the death toll in the thousands. Think about China, it's not a democracy. That's the opposite, an authoritarian country. People have a voice that they use when things like this happen. They get very angry at their government. The government is sensitive to that. We've seen Chinese equivalent of Twitter there exploding with comments about this, questions, rumors that far more people died than the government says. So you have this distrust of the government in situations like this. The government is sensitive to it and it censors.

BASH: When they use that voice, do they have any impact?

SCIUTTO: They have some impact indirectly. They're not going to vote any of them out of the office but the government is sensitive to it because, listen, it's a big country, 1.4 billion people. They don't want a critical mass of protests. But the reaction typically is to silence, right? They will find particular words on, again, Chinese Internet, Chinese Twitter, they will censor. They won't let you use certain phrases if they feel things are getting out of hand. On the flip side they know they have to respond to some of the criticism. I was amazed to see a press conference in China with local authorities announcing things like death tolls. We're used to it when it happens here. That's unusual there. They're trying to get ahead of it.

BASH: Fascinating.

Jim, thank you for that reporting.

And just ahead, one Republican presidential candidate who arrived late in the race is now gaining some traction. My interview with Ohio Governor John Kasich when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:37:54] BASH: Ohio Governor John Kasich is feeling a little wind in his back following the first primary debate. The candidate, who jumped into the race much later than most, actually moved up to a close third place in New Hampshire according to the latest "Boston Herald" poll.

I had a chance to sit down with Kasich in Derry, New Hampshire.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KASICH, (R), OHIO GOVERNOR & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Never heard of because we're not --

BASH (voice-over): John Kasich is rising in New Hampshire polls. His events now more crowded thanks to a standout debate performance.

KASICH: I am having so much fun. So we go into this town hall and I almost lost my breath.

BASH (on camera): Why?

KASICH: Because there are so many people in there and it's noon on a -- I was going to say it was a Friday but it was a Wednesday.

BASH: It's Wednesday.

KASICH: You lose track of time out here.

BASH (voice-over): Back in time, in the 1990s, in the House, Kasich helped balance the budget with President Bill Clinton.

(on camera): You like to say --

KASICH: That's a big deal.

BASH: You like to say it's the first time it happened since the man walked on the moon.

KASICH: Yeah.

BASH: So looking forward --

KASICH: Do you know why that's a big deal, though? It's a big deal because people don't believe it can happen.

BASH: How do you do that again, and is it really doable?

KASICH: Yeah. Well, you do it over time. In fact, you wouldn't want to do it, like, a year because it would be so disruptive. It's not just chopping and cutting. It's innovating, thinking differently, shifting of power back and economic growth. If you put a credible plan on the table, you're going to start to get nick growth.

BASH: You talk about the social safety net in a way of lot don't.

KASICH: I'll tell you something that's really weird about all of this. I balance more budges than about anybody walking on the face of the earth. I mean, I'm kind of kidding, but I've done that. I cut taxes every step of the way. The largest tax cuts in Ohio of any sitting governor right now. I'm for school choice. Higher education costs. And somehow because I care about people or I care about the environment that makes me something other than a conservative. I think Republicans allow themselves to be put in a box. If I care about people, like some lady whispered to me when I walked out of the town hall, thanks for caring about people. She's whispering. No. To me, conservatism is giving everybody a chance to be able to be successful.

[13:40:18] BASH: Hillary Clinton met here in New Hampshire yesterday with some Black Lives Matter protesters. I don't know if you saw it, Bernie Sanders had a disruption at one of his events because of protesters. Martin O'Malley apologized for saying all lives matter. Do you think that it's appropriate to apologize for that? What's your view on this? KASICH: I've been very involved in Ohio. We have a collaborative

effort with leaders, African-Americans, law enforcement, and they come up with 23 recommendations.

BASH: Should a public official apologize for saying all lives matter?

KASICH: I don't know about that issue. All lives matter. Black Lives Matter especially now because there's a fear in these communities that, you know, the justice isn't working for them, but it's about balance. I'm not going to get myself caught in some sort of a wedge. The community has to understand the challenges of police, and the police have to understand the challenges of the community.

They're making a mistake.

BASH (voice-over): As for the Republican front-runner, Kasich is consistently careful not to slam Donald Trump.

(on camera): You thanked Donald Trump for being in the debate because you think he drew 24 million people, who also got a look at you. Do you think he's a positive force in the GOP field?

KASICH: I think he's tapping into people's anxieties because I think those anxieties are real. People have about had it with frustrations in their lives connected to the government, connected to the loss of jobs, but I don't think people want to stay on the negative side. I think they want to know what the solutions are and they're skeptical. When I talk over there, what's going through my mind, do they believe me? They don't want the same old same, old anymore. They want solutions and they want to believe that somebody can deliver solutions. Look, I'm only a guy, OK? I'm not some magic man. I do the best I can. I think I -- know I have the experience and the record and maybe even some of the personal strength to be able to help this country.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: For more of my interview with John Kasich and all the latest presidential contenders, head over to CNNpolitics.com.

Up next, an ISIS hacking group releasing personal information of hundreds of U.S. military members. The chilling message calling for immediate attacks here at the U.S. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:47:05] BASH: A pro-ISIS hacking group is out with a chilling warning for members of the U.S. military and government. Their message, that ISIS followers will be striking back, quote, "very soon."

CNN's Brian Todd is on the story and joining us now.

Brian, the message also involved a possible hit list?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Dana. This is a dry looking spread sheet but it has ominous implications. This is a hit list put out by a group calling it the Islamic State Hacking Division. We blurred out the names. It has 1,400 or so names, e-mail addresses, telephone numbers of people it says are U.S. military members, State Department personnel, also people who work for NASA, British people on here as well.

Now, we can't confirm the authenticity of the list. We have called some of the numbers. We have e-mailed some of the people to determine if they're legitimate or not. Some e-mails have bounced back. Some have not, indicating some of the e-mail addresses may be valid. We also can't confirm the authenticity of whether this was a hack or not. Some technical experts who monitor jihadist traffic online are telling us it may not be a full hacking of these names. This could be what they call an Internet scrape. People just go through the Internet, pull together some material that's on open sourcing, and just compile a list. But, nonetheless, it is an ominous thing. We've asked Pentagon officials about this, FBI officials about this. They say they're looking into it.

Here is what the outgoing Army chief of staff, Raymond Odierno, had to say about this publication.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. RAY ODIERNO, ARMY CHIEF OF STAFF: This is the second or third time they've claimed that. The first two times whatever list they got, were not taken by any cyber attack. They were kind of lists that were really off the site. And, right now, so far -- I've not seen the list myself -- but what I believe is this is no different than the other two times. But I take it seriously because it's clear what they're trying to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TODD: And they take this seriously, Dana, because this is what they try to do, send us a message know we're in your e-mails and computer systems and calling on our people to strike in your own lands. Even if some of these are not legitimate e-mail addresses or phone numbers, the fact they're trying to do this is what really makes U.S. officials worry. They're trying to incite lone wolves to do their bidding, attack people where they live.

And this has been a huge issue. Just over the past year, 55 arrests in the United States, ISIS-related arrests of people who were sympathizers of ISIS. And, again, U.S. officials say this is what keeps them up at night, messages like this hacking list, just sending out to lone wolves to incite them to do something. Again, even if not one of these is a legitimate telephone number or e-mail address, the fact they're putting out this message trying to get people to look follow through on the information and attack, that is what is chilling to U.S. officials - Dana?

[13:50:09] BASH: Chilling is the perfect word.

Thank you so much for that report, Brian. Up next, ISIS shakes the Iraqi capital with a massive truck bomb. Is

it a game changer for the new Iraqi government and the U.S.-led coalition? We'll take a closer look.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BASH: New developments in the fight against ISIS. The first of the American F-16s based in Turkey carrying out air strikes against terrorist positions in Syria. Moments ago, the U.S. military said U.S.-coalition jets have carried out 14 airstrikes in Iraq and Syria. The out-going Army chief of staff says the U.S. may not have the right ISIS plan. General Ray Odierno says that the White House should consider embedding U.S. troops in Iraq. And in Baghdad, ISIS is claiming responsibility for a massive exPLOsion at an outdoor market. Dozens of people were killed by a truck bomb there.

Let's bring in Phil Mudd, who is CNN's counterterrorism analyst and former CIA counterterrorism official; Bob Baer, CNN intelligence and security analyst and also a former CIA operative; and CNN military analyst and retired Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona.

Let me start with you, Bob.

The blast in Baghdad, how damaging do you think this is to the new Iraqi government?

[13:55:40] BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE & SECURITY ANALYST: I think it's very damaging. ISIS can move around at will, set up bombs. It undermines legitimacy of the government. The country is essentially divided and we're getting no closer to reunifying it. It's very damaging.

BASH: And let's go to Phil, to what General Odierno said about considering boots on the ground in Iraq. He is in one camp. General Martin Dempsey has said something a little similar. Do you think that's a good idea? Do you think the U.S. should imbed with the Iraqi forces?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: We need to focus on the key question and that is, who owns the fight. The Iraqi military owns the fight now. Imbed the troops and that doesn't change that dynamic. I don't think it's a bad idea. I do think over the next we're we've got to focus on the basic question, are the proposals for the White House or Pentagon, like the proposal for General Odierno, do they change the question of whether we own the fight or the Iraqis do? Embedded troops doesn't change that yet. It's still the same story. The Iraqis have got to win this for themselves.

BASH: So far, we've been focused on ISIS in this conversation, on Iraq, but there is so much debate over what is the biggest threat to America. Watch this?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: At this moment, the greatest threats from the Middle East and North Africa, where radical groups exploit grievances for their own gain.

JAMS COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: ISIL is not your parents' al Qaeda. It's a very different model. And by virtue of that model, it's the threat that we are worrying about in the homeland most of all.

GEN. RAY ODIERNO, U.S. ARMY CHIEF OF STAFF: I think Russia is the most dangerous. They are more mature than some other of our potential adversaries and I think they have some stated intents that concern me. If I had to stack them today, I'd have Russia down as number one, China down as number two. Clearly, North Korea with ballistic missile capability and the potential to reach the United States and attack the homeland is high on that list and then ISIL.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Colonel Francona, let's start with you.

Is it Russia, China, all of the above?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It's all of the above. But there are different categories of threats. If you look at Russia, it's an existential threat to the United States. The Chinese have that as well. The North Koreans want to develop than. And then ISIL, of course, presents a threat to the U.S. and to the homeland. They are all threats and have to be addressed in different ways. That's what presents a different challenge to not only the Pentagon, State Department, and to the new president.

BASH: Bob Baer, what do you think?

BAER: I still worry about the Middle East. With reconciliation with Iran coming, there's more tension. ISIL is on the move in Syria. That government isn't doing it at all well. ISIS is filling in the vacuum there. I don't think we've seen the end of it or Yemen. The immediate threat I think is ISIL. Long-term threat, of course, is China, Russia, and North Korea but that's a distant threat.

BASH: Phil Mudd, what keeps you up at night, knowing what you know, or at least back when you were in the intelligent business?

MUDD: I hate to agree with the CIA guy, Bob Baer, but I have to.

(LAUGHTER)

You have to divided this into short-term, long-term. And that's where I think the debate gets confused. People are too general saying, let's lump these all together. Short term, I'd agree, ISIS. We've had 50-plus arrests over the last year. Long term, it is clear, Russia, China, to my mind, as the counterterrorism guys, are the most likely to draw America and American men and women in uniform into a fight, especially as we see Russian expansionism. I think Russia and China is the biggest.

[13:59:54] BASH: No shortage of threats for this president and the future president.

Thank you all so much for that discussion. Phil Mudd, Bob Baer, Colonel Rick Francona, thank you so much.

And that's it for me.

For our international viewers, "Amanpour" is next.

For our viewers in North America, "Newsroom" with Brooke Baldwin starts right now.