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Bomb in Bangkok Explodes During Rush Hour; Death Toll from Bangkok Blast Rises to 18; Indonesia Searches for Plane Debris; Trump and Sanders Rise in Polls; Fiorina Campaigns at Iowa State Fair; Trump Unveils Immigration Proposal; Where Trump Gets His Military Advice. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired August 17, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 p.m. in London, midnight in Bangkok. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

We begin with breaking news, a deadly explosion in Bangkok, Thailand. Look at these pictures. A closed-circuit video captured the moment a bomb rips through a very, very busy intersection. You can see the giant orange fireball from the blast that happened right in the heart of Bangkok right during evening rush hour.

Police believe the explosion came from the Erawan Hindu shrine, a popular tourist destination. The immediate aftermath a chaotic scene. Officials say at least 18 people were killed, including a group of Chinese tourists, 117 others at least are injured.

Let's bring in our Senior Cameraman Mark Phillips. He's on the ground in Bangkok for us. Mark, you're joining us on the phone. You were there shortly after the blast. Describe what you saw.

MARK PHILLIPS, CNN SENIOR CAMERAMAN: When we got down there, the place had already cordoned off the area. We could see at least one body laying in the debris. There were two blackened motorbikes in the middle of it and six or seven motorbikes were all pushed to the ground. I could see the fence of the shrine had been pushed in by the force of the blast. There was a lot of debris laying around. There was a lot of police down there at the time, followed up by the military, the police and ambulance.

And then, to -- as we were getting closer, we were all told to move back because they thought that there was a secondary device there. So, the police pushed us back about another 150 meters for a while and then they continued on going through the debris -- Wolf.

BLITZER: The police chief there in Bangkok announced there is no active bomb threat. But there were fears earlier potentially there could be more explosives. What are you learning about that? Was this seen as some sort of just explosion -- explosive device left there or some sort of suicide bomber? What are they saying? PHILLIPS: At the moment, still unclear. We haven't got a lot of

information coming out. The secondary devices they actually found were just bags -- plastic bags that had been left at the scene. That scene is very busy. There's a lot of flower sales around there. There's a lot of food sellers around there. So, there was a lot of debris from that. And the secondary devices, they concluded they were just plastic bags left there by the people, general public -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Mark, has there been any claim of responsibility?

PHILLIPS: Not at the moment. We haven't heard any claim of responsibility. We're still waiting to hear what or who planted this bomb and what their motives were.

BLITZER: The significance of the location, though, is very important. This is right at the heart of Bangkok, a very popular tourist attraction.

PHILLIPS: It is. It is basically the epicenter of Bangkok shopping and tourism. Across the road from the shrine is one of the largest shopping malls in Bangkok, the central world mall. Besides that, you have the Intercontinental Hotel. You have the Holiday Inn. You have several other large chain hotels there. And it's just a major intersection there. You have a train line that runs over the top of it. It's -- there's so many people going through that place. So, whoever set off this bomb was doing it to maximize the maximum damage because there would have been so many people there at the time.

And also, you've got to remember that it was 7:00 at night when it happened and people were going home. People were leaving work. And a lot of tourists were going through that area at the same time because it also is the end of the school holiday season so it's kind of -- you do your shopping and you go and have a look at the shrine. And you can go in there, you can buy flower, you can say a prayer, and so that place would have been incredibly busy at that time of day.

BLITZER: The Hindu shrine there right in the heart of Bangkok. Finally, Mark, some have suggested this area in Bangkok would be the equivalent of Times Square in New York. Is that an accurate description?

PHILLIPS: A fairly good description, yes, because it is a very, very busy part of Bangkok. A lot of pedestrians walking around there. As I said, it is a major intersection there. In the past, where there have been demonstrations, that is the place where they all go knowing that, full well, Bangkok stops if you close down that intersection and Bangkok does stop. So, whoever's planted this device knew the same thing would happen. They knew that this was -- they were going to get the maximum amount of casualties by planting a bomb there -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Mark Phillips is on the scene for us, one of our senior photojournalists. Mark, thanks very much for that report.

[13:05:00] I want to stay on the breaking news, the deadly bombing in Bangkok. Joining us here in Washington, CNN Counterterrorism Analyst, the former CIA counterterrorism official Phil Mudd. And joining us from New York, Bobby Ghosh, our Global Affairs Analyst, managing editor of "Quartz." Bangkok has seen its terror plots in the past, Phil. What do you make of this when you saw what was going on?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Well, there's a lot of curiosities in this one for me, Wolf, early on. The first is no claim of responsibility. I would have expected to see a claim, at this point, if it's the guys that I've followed in the past, that is the Al Qaeda guys, the ISIS guys.

The second to me is, again, if it were the people I followed, I would have expected a different target. You're talking about Bangkok, you've probably been, I've been there many times. Major hotels are there. That's a typical terror target. You have embassies, but in this case, by contrast. You have an economic zone and a Hindu shrine.

The clue I'll be looking at in the coming hours is whether it was a suicide bombing or not. If it was not, that will almost confirm to me that this is a different story than what we've seen in the Middle East and Europe and North America in the past few years. It's a different organization than what we've been following.

BLITZER: We did some checking, Bobby. There were a couple of incidents over the past few years in Bangkok, I know you're familiar with them. In 2014, two Hezbollah members were detained, deported over an alleged plot targeting Jewish tourists in Bangkok in 2012, an Iranian agent blew himself up. Others were injured in a similar plot targeting Israeli diplomats in Bangkok. What do you make of what's going on over there?

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, quite recently, the police chiefs in neighboring countries, in Malaysia and Indonesia, knees warned to be on the lookout or sort of international Islamist terror plots in the region. But as Phil says, this does not fit into any of the normal patterns that we've seen before. And the target is sort of clearly designed to wreak maximum havoc.

It's a Hindu shrine but it's important to remember that the vast majority of people who go there are not Hindus. They I ear Thai Buddhists and terrorists -- beg your pardon, tourists from different faiths. There's not a large Hindu population in Thailand and there's almost no hostility or resentment between the Hindu population and the Buddhist majority.

So, I would suspect, at this early stage, that the target -- that the fact that it was a Hindu shrine is sort of incidental. It had -- might have had more to do with the fact that it's a place where a lot of people congregate.

BLITZER: Well, is there any animosity there, that you know of, Bobby, between the Buddhists and Hindus?

GHOSH: No, it almost -- I've never heard of any animosities between those two communities. There is some -- there is an insurgency that's taking place in southern Thailand. There is an Islamist insurgency. There is an Islamic Muslim population there that feels resentful towards the central government because of years of, sort of, being ignored and not being given a fair share of state resources.

But that insurgency is very confined to the south. There's been no indication that people fighting against the central government have wanted to come to Bangkok or any other part of Thailand to do this. This is a very, very difficult one to understand.

And I suspect, until we know -- until somebody steps up and takes credit or responsibility for this, it will be hard to fit it into any of the patterns that we've already seen.

BLITZER: I think that's a good point. And, Phil, the embassy in Bangkok issued a statement saying U.S. citizens are advised to avoid the area and monitor local media for updates. That's a pretty standard informative piece of advice coming from a U.S. embassy following an incident like this.

MUDD: Sure, it would be. And it reminds me of looking at this area in the past, let's say, 10, 15 years. You saw attacks in Southeast Asia, particularly in Jakarta, against places where tourists go. That is embassies but also places like discos.

But this looks to me, I agree with Bobby, like an economic target where somebody is trying to send a message to the government, not necessarily anti-religion but anti-tourism, anti-government to persuade the government to do something politically.

I think it's a good point for the embassy to tell folks to be careful because if there's a bomb maker out who placed these, he's out there somewhere and he could hit locations that tourists are going to, if that's the intent of the organization that conducted this attack.

BLITZER: And we know tourism is a source of a huge amount of revenue for Thailand and an incident like this obviously has made very painful ramifications for that whole tourism industry.

All right, guys, we'll stay on top of the breaking news. Thanks very much.

MUDD: Thank you.

BLITZER: Much more coming up on the breaking news out of Bangkok. We'll update you as we get more information.

Also ahead, weather is now interfering with the search for wreckage from a plane crash in Indonesia. Fifty-four people were on board. We'll take a closer look at why there have been so many deadly crashes in that country this year alone.

Plus, Donald Trump, here in the United States, continuing to dominate in a brand new poll.

[13:10:00] And Bernie Sanders, he's gaining ground on Hillary Clinton. Why do voters seem so enthusiastic about these so-called outsiders? We'll discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: Let's get to presidential politics here in the United States. Right now, a new poll could spell some trouble for the establishment candidates running for the Republican nomination. They're struggling while the so-called outsiders are surging.

The Fox News poll shows Donald Trump leading right now with 25 percent. He's followed by retired neurosurgeon, Dr. Ben Carson, at 12 percent; the Texas senator, Ted Cruz, at 10 percent; Jeb Bush, look at this, he's dropped to nine percent, putting him in fourth place. The Wisconsin governor who had been doing really well, Scott Walker, he's tied with Mike Huckabee at six percent. Florida senator, Marco Rubio, is at four percent tied with Ohio governor, John Kasich.

The former Hewlett-Packard CEO, Carly Fiorina, is the latest candidate to campaign at the Iowa State Fair. We're watching as she takes her turn on the soap box, as it's call. Let's listen in briefly.

[13:15:10]

CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: In which a man's judgment might have been clouded by his hormones. Any at all?

All right, yes, sir, right there in front? You're up.

QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE) about raising the minimum wage and how that would impact the tax receipts to the U.S. Treasury and additional funds coming in to Social Security and Medicare.

FIORINA: Yes. So the question is about raising the minimum wage. So, first, I believe that minimum wage should be a state decision, not a federal decision. Why? Because it makes no sense to say that the minimum wage in New York City is the same as the minimum wage in Mason City, Iowa. That makes no sense.

Secondly, we have to remember that a lot of minimum wage jobs are jobs where people start. And in those jobs, they learn skills to move forward. So we need to be honest about the consequences of raising a minimum wage too high. One of the consequences is that young people who are trapped in poor neighborhoods will have less opportunity to learn skills and move forward.

You know, I started out as a secretary in a nine-person real estate firm. My husband, Frank, started out as a tow truck driver in a family-owned auto body shop. And I tell young people all the time, don't worry about getting the perfect job, just get a job, any job. Because in every job you will learn things. You'll learn things about yourself. You'll learn things about the world around you. You'll learn skills that you can use to get a better job.

So we need to understand where real growth in jobs comes from. It doesn't come from the federal government telling businesses how much to pay their workers. Actually where jobs come from are little companies, little businesses, family owned businesses and farms, like I started out in, like many of you started out in. And, in fact, those small family owned businesses and farms create two-thirds of the new jobs in this country. They employ half the people. And we are crushing them under the weight, the complexity, the cost, the power of a federal government that frankly advantages the big, the powerful, the wealthy and the well connect and is crushing the small and the powerless. We are now destroying more small businesses than we're creating for the first time in U.S. history. And every time we destroy a small business or we destroy a community bank, we are destroying the opportunity for someone to get that first job, learn skills, and get a better job.

BLITZER: All right, a little flavor from Carly Fiorina. She's doing well right now. She's moving up in the polls. She did well in that first debate and now she's continuing her struggle to get that Republican presidential nomination. The only woman, by the way, running for the Republican presidential nomination.

Donald Trump, meanwhile, is taking a break from the campaign trail today to fulfill his civic duty. We just got this video, by the way, there you see it, of Trump leaving juror duty in New York City. He was met by a huge crowd of reporters and cameras just as he was when he arrived earlier this morning. Donald Trump doing his civic responsibility.

He's been criticized for a lack of specifics on issues like illegal immigration. In response to his critics, Donald Trump has now outlined his most detailed immigration plan so far. Well, one of his positions is at odds, at least for now, with the United States Constitution. The 14th Amendment to the Constitution says, "all persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens of the United States." Trumps call for ending that so-called birth right citizenship.

Let's bring in our senior political reporter Nia-Malika Henderson and our CNN political reporter Sara Murray.

Nia, this is a major shift on his part. He would have to have a constitutional amendment rewriting the 14th Amendment if he were to get his way.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: That's right. I mean this is a big deal and it's something that's splitting the Republican field in many ways. John Kasich, for instance, he seemed to be aligned with this idea, seems not to like this idea now. Chris Christie, I think, was asked on our air this morning about it, was a little bit more vague in terms of what his approach will be. He said, you know, we'll have to see.

But think, I think, will do him some good among conservatives. The very conservatives that boosted him to the top of these polls. I think other more moderate Republicans, people like Jeb Bush, people like Reince Priebus, would be alarmed at this six-point plan because they very much want to do well with Latino voters. In some ways, this is a flashback to a lot of the rhetoric you heard in 2012 from Mitt Romney, this idea of self-deportation, which is to make things so difficult that people would actually leave the country.

[13:20:10] BLITZER: He went into specific details on this plan, on comprehensive immigration reform plan, which is very different than a lot of moderates would have liked, including this wall that he says Mexico's going to pay for.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes, what's interesting is he goes into a lot of detail on certain issues. So he talks about how he's going to force Mexico to pay for the wall by blocking remittances to Mexico, which is not an insignificant sum of money. You know, he talks about tripling the number of Customs and Immigration Enforcement agents.

What's interesting to me is what he leaves out in this plan. So he talks about deporting all criminal aliens in the plan. But when you hear him speak normally, he talks about deporting everyone who's undocumented and allowing a path to legal status for some to come back in. That path to legal status is missing.

Also missing are pledges he's made to streamline the legal immigration system. This plan is all red meat. It's all about curbing illegal immigration and even cutting back on legal immigration channels.

BLITZER: But it does resonate with a lot of potential Republicans out there, right?

HENDERSON: It -- it does. Well, I mean, we don't know what the price tag would be because maybe there would be some sticker shock among some of these conservatives who are very concerned about government spending. If you look back that that 2013 Senate bipartisan bill, that was something like $23 billion over 10 years. The security part of that was $15 billion and that, of course, was offset by revenues that they'd get from increase in tax revenue with illegal immigrants who had legal status.

So it's hard to say. I mean never mind this idea of sending everybody back. I think there was a price tag of that -- something like $100 billion. So, you know, it can -- if you get into the details of this, we don't have any CBO scoring on this, but I think if you would, you'd get some sticker shock among many.

BLITZER: He says this is just the first of several position papers he's going to put out in the coming weeks and months outlining his positions on taxes and other sensitive issues, including national security matters.

Why is it right now, Sara, you've been looking into this, the so- called renegade candidates like Donald Trump, Dr. Ben Carson, Ted Cruz, they're doing well among Republican voters, at least according to this latest Fox News poll. But some of the establishment candidates, like Jeb Bush, for example, Scott Walker, maybe he's an establishment candidate, Marco Rubio, not necessarily moving up.

MURRAY: Well, I like how you call them renegade candidates for one. No, look, I think this is what we were surprised about when we saw Donald Trump's support keep rising and him -- to him -- support from one in four voters. The protest vote right now is bigger than we realized. People are really angry. They're really not happy with the folks they've sent to Washington. And that means Democrats and Republicans. And so now we're seeing Ben Carson piggybacking on that. This is what Ted Cruz has been talking about from the beginning, even though he is a sitting senator. And so I think we just sort of underestimated how angry voters were to begin with.

For the establishment candidates, I think the reality is, if your name is Jeb Bush, it is hard to get people super excited about your candidacy when we are this far out from voting. If you're Scott Walker or Marco Rubio, I think this is the bigger problem. You would expect more people to be excited to see sort of these young up-and-comers rising.

BLITZER: And it's -- and let's be precise on this, Nia, Donald Trump, he's not only winning in this latest Fox News poll, but all the national polls. Basically he's atop, including in the early states, whether Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina. He's doing well in all those states he's atop.

HENDERSON: That's right. And the people who have been nicest to him, Ted Cruz and Ben Carson, are bunched up there at the top with him. And then you've got Rand Paul, who's very much been going after Donald Trump, I think is last place in a lot of these polls. So I think all of these other candidates bunched together below Donald Trump and in some ways obscured by the phenomena of Donald Trump have to figure out what do they do with him? Do they sort of follow his lead, play kid -- you know, sort of play nice with him, or do they punch him in the nose?

BLITZER: You know, Rand Paul, the senator, he's in Haiti right now. He's a doctor. He's actually doing some public service work in Haiti, taking a break from the campaign trail, which is very nice, obviously, as well.

HENDERSON: Yes, definitely.

BLITZER: All right, guys, thanks, very, very much.

We'll have more on Donald Trump coming up, including where he gets his military advice and how he says he would defeat ISIS. Stay with us.

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[13:28:22] BLITZER: Republican presidential front-runner Donald Trump's positions on the U.S. military national security have come under fire by his critics. In an interview on NBC's "Meet the Press," Trump was asked about the military advisors he relies on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who do you talk to for military advice right now?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I watch the (ph) shows. I mean I really see a lot of great -- you know, when you watch your show and all of the other shows and you have the generals and you have -- and you have certain people that you like --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) -- but is there somebody -- is there a go-to for you? You know, every --

TRUMP: Probably there are two or three. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every -- every presidential candidate has a go-two for three.

TRUMP: Yes, probably there are two or three. I mean I like Bolton. I think he's, you know, a tough cookie. He knows what he's talking about. Jacobs is a good guy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You mean Ambassador John Bolton?

TRUMP: Yes. I did (INAUDIBLE) --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You mean Colonel Jack Jacobs?

TRUMP: Colonel Jack Jacobs is a good guy and I see him on occasion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, let's bring in our own -- one of our own good guy, Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. He's a CNN military analyst, retired former commanding general for Europe and the Seventh Army.

What's your take, first of all, on where Donald Trump says he gets his military advice, Retired Colonel Jacobs, for example?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, first of all, Wolf, Jack Jacobs is a great guy. He's quite an American hero. A Medal of Honor winner. And he's very sound in some of his commentary on another channel. But I would suggest that Mr. Trump needs to get more into the complications of some of these issues. You can't just get a few snippets off a TV show or get a read off a Twitter feed and think you know -- or understand the implications of some of these complex issues the United States is facing right now.

BLITZER: You called Donald Trump's earlier comment about bombing oil fields in Iraq that ISIS now controlled, you said it was troubling. He repeated that position on "Meet The Press." Listen to this.

[13:30:06] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: And I said, you take away their wealth. You go in, knock the hell out of the oil. Take back the oil. We take over the oil, which we should have done in the first place. And --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's going to take ground troops.