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Cruz Speaks Soon On Jailed Kentucky Clerk; Kim Davis To Be Released; Protests Continue Outside Kentucky Jail; Constitution, Amendments And Marriage; Clinton Support Slips As Biden's Rises; New Poll Numbers Out. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired September 08, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 p.m. in London, 7:00 p.m. in Budapest. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

We're following two major political stories developing this hour right here in the United States. Up first, Republican presidential candidates, they rally around the Kentucky clerk jailed for refusing to issue same-sex marriage licenses.

The Texas Senator Ted Cruz expected to speak any moment now outside the jail where the clerk, Kim Davis, is being held. We'll bring you the senator's remarks live. Stand by for that.

Besides Senator Cruz, the former Arkansas governor and current presidential candidate, Mike Huckabee, visits Davis and holds a rally protesting her arrest at the same time.

The other major political story we're following, Hillary Clinton as her worst showing yet in a major national poll. New results just released show her lead shrinking. And vice president Joe Biden numbers rising. He's above 20 percent for the first time. We're going to break down all the numbers for you.

The vice president hasn't even said whether he's running for president or not but he's making head way against Hillary Clinton, that according to this brand new Monmouth University poll. In the survey, 42 percent of Democrats and Democratic-leaning voters back Hillary Clinton, that's down from 45 percent in a different poll late last month. It's Hillary Clinton's worst showing, by the way, in a major national poll. Vice president Joe Biden has now climbed to 22 percent followed by Bernie Sanders at 20 percent.

Our Senior Washington Correspondent Jeff Zeleny is joining us now live. Jeff, what do you make of the new numbers?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, I think Democrats are finally getting the opportunity to think that, wow, we may have a choice in this election so they are exercising that choice. They've seen so much choice on the Republican side. And, up until now, it didn't look like the race was going to be so competitive. But, Wolf, I can tell you, this race is going to be very competitive. It tells us a couple things. One, for Joe Biden, the spotlight has been very kind to him. Over the last month or six weeks or so most all of the news coverage, most all of the attention, has been very positive. I can't think of a time when he's gotten so much of attention, really since he was picked as the vice president in the summer of 2008. But the reality is, and he knows this as well as anyone, he's run for president twice before, the minute he would declare, the minute he would jump in, that coverage would change. He would suddenly be treated like a candidate. He would own every bit of the Obama administration's record over the last six and a half years, seven years in office here. So, it's good for him at the moment.

But -- and for Hillary Clinton, it shows that he's taking support from her lane. No question about it. Those are the same type of voters. His supporters are coming from her column.

BLITZER: You know, it's interesting because if you take a look at this Monmouth University poll, and I've studied it, in August, when the same poll came out, Hillary Clinton was at 52 percent. Now, she's down to 42 percent. Biden, who hasn't announced anything, he's at 12 percent, in August. Now, he's at 22 percent. And Bernie Sanders has gone from 16 percent to 20 percent. So, obviously, she's -- her numbers are going down right now and that must be a source of some concern to those who support her.

ZELENY: Sure, it's a source of concern, at some point. But you also have to look beyond these numbers a little bit. And, Wolf, Democrats still like Hillary Clinton. Her favorability ratings, among Democrats, are still higher than any candidate or most candidates could actually dream for. So, they may be looking around. They may say, hey, we like Joe Biden right now.

But I think the thing that is worrisome, to the Clinton campaign, is more on the Bernie Sanders side of things. I was out in Iowa over Labor Day weekend and talked to so many voters. Wolf, I can tell you, the Sanders voters, the Bernie Sanders voters, are not -- are not anti-Hillary Clinton. They're pro-Sanders and that's a problem for Hillary Clinton.

BLITZER: All right, stand by because we're going to get back to the U.S. race for the White House in a moment.

But there's breaking news we're following out of Grayson, Kentucky, the case of the Kentucky clerk Kim Davis who's been jailed for refusing to sign marriage certificates for same-sex couples.

Let's go to Martin Savidge. He's on the scene for us. Martin, what's going on?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, according to the legal team that represents Kim Davis -- and I've just been speaking to Harry Amihat (ph). He is the chief legal advisor. He says that the judge in this case, that's David Bunning, the federal judge that ordered her to be held, has now ordered her to be released.

Again, Kim Davis has been told that she is going to be released from this facility, according to her attorneys. The judge told them, through an order, that he was satisfied that the judge's order was being complied with. That being, of course, that marriage licenses were now being disseminated in Rowan County.

The problem here is that the attorney says she has not changed her mind. That Kim Davis is adamant, as long as her name appears on those marriage licenses, she objects and she will attempt to stop those licenses from being distributed which means if she goes back on the job as is expected, she will bring the process to a halt. That's what her attorneys believe. And they have said they expect her to go by her conscience which means we may go through this all again.

[13:05:14] But the headline is Kim Davis has, apparently, been ordered freed from this facility -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And, presumably, Martin, she'll go back to work as the clerk there who's in charge of signing and issuing these marriage certificates.

SAVIDGE: Correct. And that's what the attorneys are finding a problem here is because, in many ways, this is not a resolution. I said, do you feel this is a victory? Have you won something here? And they said, no. They were actually very confused by the judge's ruling because it doesn't resolve what we know, what they know was the original problem the clerk had which was her name. She was, religiously, was opposed to having her name appear on same-sex marriage licenses. And that hasn't changed.

So, they still anticipate she is going to walk out of this facility. They couldn't say if it was going to be in five minutes or five hours, but what happens after that, when she shows up back on the job, is anybody's guess. But it's looking like this could be repeated once more -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And Ted Cruz is down there. Mike Huckabee is down there. Two Republican presidential candidates expressing their support for Kim Davis. We're going to see what's going on.

Let us know what you -- when you get some more information, Martin. We'll report it to our viewers.

Let's get some analysis of what's going on in the world of politics, what's going on in Kentucky right now. Joining us, are CNN Political Commentator, the Democratic strategist, Donna Brazile. Also joining us, Michele Bachmann. She's a former Republican presidential candidate, a former U.S. Congresswoman from the state of Minnesota.

Donna, what's your reaction to the release of Kim Davis, first of all? She was in jail for refusing to sign these marriage certificates. Now, she's out. We don't know what happens next.

DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I take no joy in anybody being jailed for their so-called religious belief. But I also take no joy in people lining up day after day to get their marriage license. That's the law of the land right now. If Miss Davis objects to this, on religious grounds, she should step aside and allow the other clerks, I believe there are five other clerks, including her son, that would like to issue those licenses.

So, it's clear to me that the judge has decided that it's time for Miss Davis to go home. If she goes back to work -- I think if she cannot do that, from her conscience point of view, perhaps she can allow the other clerks to do so.

BLITZER: Michele, what's your reaction?

MICHELE BACHMANN (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it shows a real victory for people who went to the polls in state after state after state and voted on putting the definition of marriage in their state constitutions. And all of the collective voices of people across the United States, who believed in marriage as one man, one woman, was swept away by five voices on the United States Supreme Court. That's really what's at issue here, judicial activism, and this story isn't over.

BLITZER: But isn't the Supreme Court decision supposed to be the law of the land after they interpret what the law is?

BACHMANN: Well, the law of the land is what Congress and the president and the people's voices are and the state. We have a real perversion now where we have -- the Supreme Court has made itself a super-legislature in contravention of the Constitution.

BRAZILE: You know, equal justice --

BACHMANN: It's not under the law.

BLITZER: Go ahead, Donna.

BRAZILE: Equal justice under the law is inscribed (ph) not just in our Constitution under the 14th Amendment but the dignity of those who have been standing in line waiting to have that moment when they want their licenses. That should supersede anyone's religious conscience. And I understand the importance of religion. I'm a practicing catholic. I understand why it was enshrined in the bill of right but the Constitution is very clear. And the judges five to four. Now, look, I don't like the Supreme Court all the time. I think they act like supremes. But this is the law.

BLITZER: Because the Supreme Court did rule in a five to four decision that the 14th Amendment to the Constitution provides equal protection to all American citizens, and that men -- two men if they want to get married, two women if they want to get married, they deserve the same equal rights as all American citizens.

BACHMANN: The 14th Amendment was about the conclusion of the civil war, and it was about the issue of the states and the rights of the African-Americans. It was not about marriage. And so, once again, we're seeing a puff of smoke being blown into a new right by five justices on the Supreme Court. And that's not law.

BLITZER: So, -- but you don't accept that the Supreme Court is the final arbiter interpreting what the law of the land is? BACHMANN: I think what we've seen is a perversion of the rights of

the American people. Their rights are being undermined in our system of federalism. It's a serious issue, a very serious issue. We need to expect the dignity of every American citizen and their rights under the law. And The Supreme Court has clearly undermined that.

BLITZER: And not to respect the U.S. Supreme Court.

BACHMANN: The Supreme Court is respected. But it must remain under its limits as enumerated in the -- in the Article III of the Constitution. Clearly, they have broken well beyond and they have ascribed to them the rights of a -- of Congress, which I was a member of under Article I.

BLITZER: Donna, go ahead.

BRAZILE: Well, Miss Davis took an oath also. She took an oath of office. And she swore to uphold the Constitution of the United States. The Supreme Court affirmed that in the recent case. So, I see no contradiction here.

[13:10:02] Miss Davis, if she cannot do this out of her conscience, I think she should step aside. Let the other five clerks do their job.

And, look, I take no joy in anybody being thrown in jail for their religious beliefs. But I do believe that she should uphold the law. If not, step aside.

(CROSSTALK)

BACHMANN: But we can't allow --

BLITZER: Hold on one -- hold on one second, Michele, I just want to go back to Martin Savidge. He's on the scene for us in Kentucky over there. Are you getting some reaction so far to this decision by the judge to let her go free?

SAVIDGE: No, there's been no reaction because most of these people here do not know that that has actually been given. There's been no announcement that it's been made, at least on the podium here. Everyone still waiting, of course, for Mike Huckabee to show up and Ted Cruz as well.

So, so far, this crowd has no knowledge that the person many of them are here to support and see get freed has actually now, apparently by a judge's order, been freed. So, that's one of the fascinating things to watch here. Word is going to circulate but it's just, very much right now, even the attorneys are kind of in a confused state to understand how is this release going to happen? And as Ray Gordie (ph) mentioned, how long will it last?

The other thing to be pointed out, Wolf, is that these attorneys had also filed as many as five separate filings to the U.S. Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals. They were waiting to hear on those. Presumably, those still go forward. But, there again, no one really knows. So, a lot is up in the air. But, one thing is certain, this crowd does not know yet the news we all know.

BLITZER: And we're showing our viewers, Martin, a live picture from Grayson, Kentucky. There you see the police officer there at that door. We anticipate that Kim Davis will walk out that door. We'll show it to our viewers once it happens.

But let's take a quick break. Much more on the breaking news right after this.

[13:11:45]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:16:02] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We're following the breaking news out of Kentucky. A judge has now released the clerk who was supposed to be issuing marriage licenses, released her after spending several days in jail for refusing to sign marriage certificates for same-sex couples who wanted to get married in the state of Kentucky. This is after the United States Supreme Court ruled that same-sex marriage is legal in all 50 states of the United States.

Martin Savidge is on the scene for us.

Martin, this is the same judge, Judge David Bunning, who initially put her in jail for refusing to sign those marriage certificates. Now he has released her and he's issued an order explaining why. You want to go through that?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I don't have the exact order in front of me, but according to the attorney that leads the legal team for Kim Davis, he said that the judge is satisfied that his order is being complied with. Of course, that marriage licenses are now being disseminated and marriage license granted to all people who ask for them, which is something that Kim Davis was not wanting to do.

Remember, all of this was sort of started as a result of four lawsuits that were brought and that's why Judge Bunning heard the case and why eventually he issued a contempt order. And it appears that maybe the judge is somehow reviewing whether marriage licenses went to those four people. You know, either way, according to the attorney that represents Kim Davis, he says that the judge was satisfied.

But here's the problem, the judge didn't say anything else beyond that and we already know from talking to the attorney of Kim Davis, she hasn't changed her mind. So when she walks out the door, she will be free. But the moment she returns to work and begins issuing licenses or stops the issuance of licenses with her name on them is the moment she could once again run afoul of this judge.

BLITZER: Well, Martin, I just received the judge's order, the written order, and it goes beyond what the attorneys for Kim Davis were saying. And let me briefly summarize what the judge wrote in his text of order, as it's called. He released her, he says, because marriage certificates are now being granted in this county in Kentucky. Five of her six deputy clerks stated under oath, he writes, that they would comply with the court's order and issue marriage licenses to all legally eligible couples and that obviously includes same-sex couples. The judge also goes on to say that defendant Davis shall be released from the custody of the U.S. Marshal. She shall not interfere in anyway, directly or indirectly, with the efforts of her deputy clerks to issue marriage licenses to all legally eligible couples. She is basically restricted from doing what she had been doing before, restricting these marriage licenses.

Jeffrey Toobin is on the phone. He's joining us.

Jeffrey, have you had a chance to go through this judge's written statement explaining why he released her?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST (via telephone): I'm working on it as we speak, but I think the - I think the rationale is very clear. It's - you know, it's important to remember that contempt of court, which is why she was incarcerated, is not punishment, it's meant to force certain behavior and in this case it was meant to force this county to grant marriage licenses to same-sex couples. The judge is now satisfied that these couples will be able to get their licenses, so there's no reason to hold her in contempt anymore. So the - the purpose of the contempt has been satisfied apparently and as long as everyone can be allowed to be married in this county, she will be able to stay out of prison - jail.

BLITZER: Yes, because it does specifically say, you're absolutely right, the court is therefore satisfied that the Rowan County Clerk's Office is fulfilling its obligation to issue marriage licenses to all legally eligible couples consistent with the U.S. Supreme Court's holding and oebergfall (ph) and this court's August 12, 2015, order. For these reasons, the courts prior contempt sanction against defendant Davis is hereby lifted.

[13:20:03] It does say she shall not interfere in any way with her deputies who are now issuing those marriage certificates. Jeffrey, if she does interfere, what happens next?

TOOBIN: Well, she could be held in contempt again because the judge, quite properly, has been focused simply on the end results, which is, are same-sex couples being allowed to be married in this county? If the answer is yes, then there is no reason to hold her in contempt. But if she comes out of jail and interferes with this process, there could be another contempt proceeding and she could wind up back in jail very quickly.

BLITZER: And he also says he will ask for what he calls a status report every 14 days to make sure that the court's orders are being complied with.

Let me bring Paul Callan into this conversation. He's another one of our law - legal analysts.

Paul, what do you make of this decision by the judge to go ahead and release Kim Davis? PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, I think the judge is

looking at a situation where you have - he's worried about the free exercise of religion concept and the public maybe not understanding the constitutional rule that he had to deal with and I think he's trying to offer her a way out of the box she's put herself in. But I agree with Jeff completely, if she goes back to that office and does exactly, by the way, what she said before she was going to do, and that is not allow marriage certificates to be issued to gay couples because - remember, her public statements have been that these certificates are issued under her authority and she was not going to permit it. Now if she returns to that conduct, she's going to be marched right back into a federal prison, I believe, to serve out a contempt sentence until she complies.

BLITZER: And the judge's report also states, Paul, that the plaintiffs in this particular case, the same-sex couples who wanted to receive those marriage licenses, they have received the marriage licenses from some of the other deputy clerks. So as a result, he could go ahead and release her from jail. That makes - that makes legal sense, right?

CALLAN: It does make legal sense, but what's going to be very interesting is, what happens tomorrow or later this week when undoubtedly another gay couple comes into the office and is she going to authorize a subordinate to sign a marriage certificate or is she going to hold to her principles and say, no such certificate will be issued from this office until Kentucky changes its law. If that's the case, I think she might be standing before the judge again.

BLITZER: And if she - if that happens, basically her options, Paul, and I want to take a quick break because we're waiting for her to walk out of that jail over there, and we've got cameras all over the place over there, but if - basically her options are to live with her religious convictions and not sign these marriage certificates and not allow any of her deputies to sign these marriage certificates or to resign from that position and move on, is that right?

CALLAN: Yes, I think that is absolutely correct and we - the U.S. supports religious diversity of views. But public officials have to abide by the Constitution of the United States. That's the one thing that we of all religions agree to. And to the extent that she obstructs the Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court, she can be held in contempt of court.

BLITZER: All right, guys - everybody stand by. We'll stay on top of the breaking news. Much more right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:27:47] BLITZER: We're following the breaking news out of Kentucky. You see live pictures coming in on the left part of your screen. That's the door we anticipate that Kim Davis, the 49-year-old county clerk who was supposed to be signing marriage certificates there but refusing to sign marriage certificates for gay couples, she has now been ordered, released by the judge who put her in jail to begin with, Judge David Bunning, saying that some of her deputies - five, six of her deputies are now signing those certificates, issuing same-sex marriage certificates. And as a result, the law is being honored.

He is warning, though, in his order to her not to interfere in any way directly or indirectly with the efforts of her deputy clerks to issue marriage licenses to all legally eligible couples now that she has been released. We'll see what she does. We'll see if she speaks when she walk out of that door. We're watching this story carefully.

I want to go back to Martin Savidge, who's on the scene for us.

Martin, are folks there beginning to hear the words that she's about to be released?

SAVIDGE: It's trickled through. As a matter of fact, I just had a very brief conversation with Kim Davis' aunt and her cousin. They're aware of the news but they don't know any more besides that. And they too said to me, she has not changed her mind one bit. So everyone who has heard this news realizes this isn't the end of this saga.

I should tell you, what's going on right now is that Mike Huckabee, the man running for president on the Republican side, who organized this rally, is trying to get into the jail because it was his intention to have a meeting inside of her cell with Kim Davis. Now you've got this ironic situation where she may be released as he's going in. So there is a lot of chaos both legally and politically here as they try to organize this event. But most people here are just standing around trying to understand what happens next.

Wolf.

BLITZER: We'll see when she walks out that door, we'll see if she does say anything, if she gives any indication what she plans on doing, if she's going to honor the judge's order that she not interfere in any way, I'm quoting, "directly or indirectly" with the efforts of her deputy clerks to issue marriage licenses to all legally eligible couples, including same-sex couples, obviously.

Joey Jackson is one of our legal analyst. He's an HLN legal analysts. He's joining us right now.

[13:30:02] Have you had a chance, Joey, to read this judge's order? And if you have, what do you make of it?

JACKSON: Well, here's what I make, Wolf. And the reality is this, we're a society that engages in true principles.