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Kerry To Meet With Netanyahu In Germany Next Week; Hamas Calling For Day Of Rage; Houston Scaffolding Collapse; Mystery Aircraft Shot Near Syria; To Make Decision; Dangers Escalating In Skies Above Syria

Aired October 16, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Jim Sciutto in today for Wolf Blitzer. It is 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 8:00 p.m. in Istanbul, 9:30 p.m. in Cabo. Wherever you're watching us from around the world, thank you for joining us.

And we're starting now with some breaking news just into CNN. We can now confirm that the secretary of state, John Kerry, will meet with the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, in Germany next week to discuss, among other things, the growing crisis in the Middle East, the violence between Israelis and Palestinians, a series of stabbings and more deaths today in clashes with Israeli security forces. This just in to CNN. Again, secretary of state, John Kerry, to travel to Europe to meet with the Israeli prime minister.

This news coming as the terror group, Hamas, has been calling for a day of rage against Israel. And here is what's happening today. In Jerusalem, Israeli police tried to disperse Palestinian rioters near the Alocso (ph) mosque after Friday prayers, firing tear gas, as you can see there, into the crowd.

In Hebron, a Palestinian man dressed in a news photographer's outfit stabbed an Israeli soldier before being shot and killed himself.

And in Gaza, medical sources say three Palestinians were killed by live fire during clashes with Israeli security forces.

And in Bethlehem as well, thick, white smoke filling the air as police drove back protesters, mixing with thick, black smoke as tires were set ablaze.

Senior International Correspondent Ben Wedeman joins us now from Jerusalem. Earlier, Ben -- we know that you were in Bethlehem today. Talk to us about this day of rage called for by Hamas and Islamic jihadi and what did you see on the ground there?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What we saw, actually, Jim, is the exact same thing that we've been seeing now for almost two weeks. Certainly in Bethlehem, you saw, after Friday prayers, initially, just a few dozen men going up the road, the old Bethlehem-Jerusalem road towards what's known as Rachel's Tomb around which is an eight meter wall. Inside, there is Israeli border police.

And as the day went on, rocks were flying, marbles being shot by Palestinian youth with slingshots. They were throwing improvised explosive devices, Molotov cocktails. The Israelis firing hundreds of canisters of tear gas as well rubber bullets and what sounds like live ammunition.

But, as I said, this has been going on for quite some time. These days of rage, I think this is the third one within the last eight days. But even when it is not a day of rage, there are still clashes along the lines which really underscores how unstable the situation has become. It's premature to call it an intifada, but this spate of knife attacks and clashes seems to be going on now for longer than anyone anticipated.

And, perhaps, it's indicative of the general decline of the situation. Here we are, 48 years after Israel conquered the west bank in east Jerusalem, and still, no resolution to this problem. Not surprisingly, the situation deteriorates -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: No question. And Ben Wedeman following it for decades there. Great to have you on.

I want to get more on this breaking news. We're joined now by Ron Dermer. He's Israel's ambassador to the U.S. as well as a former senior adviser to the Israel prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu.

First, this news you confirmed to us just moments ago, secretary of state, John Kerry, now to meet with the Israeli prime minister in Europe next week. What affect do you believe he can have on the situation to calm the tensions now in Israeli and the occupied territories?

RON DERMER, ISRAEL AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: Well, I know they were trying to work it out and schedule a meeting, because the secretary is going to be traveling to Europe and the prime minister is traveling to meet with Chancellor Merkel. So, apparently, they've been able to figure out how to coordinate that.

What we hope will happen is that they will do what they were able to do last year. You'll recall about a year ago, there were also attacks. Those attacks, by the way, began -- these Palestinian attacks, there were a lot of attacks where cars were used to just run over --

SCIUTTO: Cars used to (INAUDIBLE.)

(CROSSTALK)

DERMER: -- civilians and used as weapons. So, they called that the car intifada. Now, they're calling it knife intifada. There were these lies that were spread that Israel would change -- was going to change something on the -- on the temple mount or to destroy the Alocso (ph) mosque. Obviously, that wasn't true then, it's not true now. But a year ago, Secretary Kerry and the kind of Jordan and Prime Minister Netanyahu were together in Amman and they were able to work to sort of de-escalate things. And I suppose that that discussion will be, OK, how do we get to back to where we were in order to calm things down. SCIUTTO: Now, this meeting will come, as you heard Secretary Kerry's spokesman, John Kirby, using the term, excessive force, earlier in this week, to describe some of the actions by Israeli security forces. I want to ask you specifically about this, because we've been watching and Ben Wedeman is on the ground there as well. The use of live fire in conflicts with unarmed protesters. In your view, is that justifiable view of force?

[13:05:14] DERMER: Well, these are not protesters. These are people who are sometimes using guns. And they are throwing rocks that have killed Israeli many times. You know, on the eve of the Jewish new year, an Israeli was killed driving home from a rock that was thrown from a Palestinian. So, let's understand, you have violent protests, and Israel is using force in order to make sure that this thing does not get even further out of hand. And sometimes there are violent --

SCIUTTO: So, live fire is justifiable even if the others aren't armed?

DERMER: Well, there are clear rules -- there are clear rules of engagement of how we do it. And Israel is a country of law and we will respect the law. But, sometimes, you have violent protests. This is not some peaceful march somewhere. You saw those images on the screens, where you have things on fire. You have gunshots. You have people attacking. And a -- and, sometimes, you have to take action in order to prevent this from getting out of control. But I want to say something. The spokesman of the State Department, he made it very clear yesterday that he does not think that Israel has used excessive force in responding to any of these terror activities. So, I --

SCIUTTO: Well, he said he wasn't going to go into detail. He didn't, though, reject his earlier comment. I don't want to speak for him.

DERMER: He was not talking about Israel's action against terror. So, as of what he was specifically referring to, you would have to ask him. But, certainly, there was this sense that it -- or people had alleged that Israel has used excessive force. Look, we have a situation in Israel over the last two or three weeks where you have knife wielding, a lot of times teenagers, who are running around stabbing people. We have to take the action in order to protect our population. And that's what we're doing.

SCIUTTO: Well, I don't want to go anywhere near justifying this violence, but I do want to get at this relationship here, because secretary of state, John Kerry, he mentioned settlements recently as contributing to the tensions in the region, saying that Israel having expanded settlements in recent years. He didn't use that as justification for violence, certainly, and knife attacks. But he did use that to accuse Israel of helping inflame the situation. And I wonder what your response is to that?

DERMER: I think they were very clear that they don't see a linkage between those two things, and I'll let their words speak for themselves. Look, I think it's very important, Jim, to make a distinction between the conflict and terrorism. And people confuse the two. We have -- we could have a discussion about what is the root cause of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? And there are people who believe that settlements is a major cause of the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. Unfortunately, those are people who seem to believe the world began in 1967, because we had a conflict between Israelis and Palestinians for 50 years before there was a single one of those settlements.

And guess what? When we left Gaza and we took down every single settlement in Gaza and we went back to those 1967 lines, we didn't actually get peace, but got an Iranian terror base where thousands of rocks had been fired at Israel. We can have an argument about what's the source of the conflict. For Israel, the conflict remains the refusal of the Palestinian national movement to accept the idea of a nation state for the Jewish people in any boundary.

But there's a separate question, what is the root cause of terrorism? Not every conflict around the world leads people to take -- to have knives and guns and start killing innocent civilians. It doesn't happen in so many conflicts. You've got hundreds of conflicts. Gandhi had a legitimate grievance in India, right? He was fighting for national independence. Why didn't you see all these terror attacks happen? Because he wasn't a terrorist. He was a Democrat.

SCIUTTO: Let me as you this, because it's about -- it goes to the peace process. And let's talk about the conflict because no one's trying to justify terrorism by any means. But do both sides share responsibility for -- I don't want to say the death of the peace process, because who knows it might be resurrected at any day. But for the intransigence or the para-paralysis of the peace process, do both sides share responsibility?

DERMER: No. Look, we can try to twist all the facts. Let's just understand what has happened over the last 20 years. You have had five, six different Israeli prime ministers, including this prime minister, who has tried to reach a peace agreement with the Palestinians. You've had sweeping offers made by Israel. You had one in 2000 at Camp David. Then, with Prime Minister Ehud Barak. He made a sweeping offer to Arafat. Everything that Arafat said that he wanted, he actually got on the negotiating table. And he walked away and he began an intifada, and he called it the Al Aqsa intifada at the time.

Then, in 2008, you had another sweeping offer from Prime Minister Olmert to President Abbas, and he didn't even respond to it. He just walked away. And for the six or seven years, President Abbas has refused to even negotiate for peace. And you have to ask yourself, why are the Palestinians refusing to even sit down at the negotiating table? Why are they doing that? Because the prime minister is prepared to negotiate peace tomorrow. They're not doing it because they think that they can have a peace process where the only party that will make concessions is Israel. They don't think they're going to make concessions. And in order for us to have peace, Jim, both sides have to make concessions.

SCIUTTO: That, I think -- I imagine all sides can agree on. Ambassador Dermer, thanks so much for joining us and thanks for confirming the detail about Secretary Kerry's meeting with Netanyahu next week. We appreciate having you here.

DERMER: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: There are multiple injuries and multiple people trapped in the Houston, Texas scaffolding collapse. You're looking at live pictures there. We're going to speak with a fire department official on that breaking news story right after this break.

[13:10:13]

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SCIUTTO: Turning now to a break story in Houston, Texas where several people were trapped when scaffolding collapsed. Captain Raul Liuzano, he's with the Houston Fire Department. He's holding a news conference right now. Earlier, he said that multiple people are trapped, multiple people are injured. Let's listen in.

CAPT. RAUL LIUZANO, HOUSTON FIRE DEPARTMENT (live): I have not heard that at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know if there were folks that were -- (INAUDIBLE) that were up on the scaffolding or if they were all down on the ground?

LIUZANO: I don't know where they were located when they were -- obviously, once we arrived on scene, the scaffolding had already collapsed and they were pulled from the rubble.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you been able to get a count from the construction manager of how many workers they would've had on scene here to match up who may (INAUDIBLE)?

LIUZANO: We've been speaking with (INAUDIBLE) close to 200 workers working on the location and they're pretty much got a count. We've got most of them but we're just going to continue our search for any possible unaccounted for victims.

[13:15:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what are the names of people --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) that you know of for sure right now that are missing?

LIUZANO: No, we don't have any confirmation of missing workers but we are continuing our search as if there is until we get complete confirmation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And do you have a name of the construction company (INAUDIBLE)?

LIUZANO: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right.

LIUZANO: Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

LIUZANO: That's it? Thanks.

SCIUTTO: You were listening there to the chief of the Houston Fire Department talking about a scaffold collapse. You're seeing those live pictures right now. Earlier, he said that multiple people have been trapped in that scaffolding, multiple people injured. It's a breaking news story we're going to continue to follow as more information comes through.

Coming up next, the Syria fighting spills over into Turkey with a shooting down of a mystery aircraft. When we return, we'll have the very latest on whose it may have been and the possible fallout.

And later, Vice President Biden's family has said to be totally on board if he runs for president. But what about Biden? Members of his inner circle say a decision is close. Stay with us.

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[13:20:09] SCIUTTO: There's new information unfolding this hour over a troubling situation in Syria. Hours ago, Turkey shot down a mystery aircraft flying in its air space near the Syrian border. The aircraft was unmanned drone. U.S. officials saying it is unclear whose drone it is, but sources are telling CNN otherwise.

Joining me now, CNN Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr and Senior International Correspondent Nick Paton Walsh. Barbara, so we now believe this drone is Russian?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, I have to tell you, Jim, U.S. officials are saying that's the initial information that they are getting. Obviously, very sensitive. They're not saying, at this point, how it is they come to believe that it's Russian but they do. And they are also not able to tell us whether it's actually operated by Russians in some -- on -- from some ground station perhaps in Syria, perhaps somewhere else. The information is very, very sketchy. But, at the moment, they believe the initial reports are indicating to them it is some type of Russian drone. The Russians saying it is not -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: So, Nick, enormous sensitivity in Turkey, certainly about Russia's expanding military operations on the ground in Syria, also continuing sensitivity about their air space, of course understandably. Why did the Turks shoot this down? Is that a message to Russia if it turns out to be a Russian drone?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They say it's standard operating procedure. An unidentified aircraft, unidentified nationality comes into their air space, they say that their fighters in the air gave three separate warnings. No response. Obviously, a drone can't respond. That's what Turk officials say it was. And they shot it down (INAUDIBLE) actually was quite far inside Turkish territory.

Now, the sensitivity is so heightened because, in fact, 24 hours earlier, Russian ministry officials were here in Turkey talking to their Turkish counterparts because of an instance 10 days ago in which a Russian jet did stray into Turkey. The Russians saying, so sorry, it was bad weather that caused us to do that.

But you've got to bear in mind, now, you know, the Russians are talking to the Israelis to make sure there are no problems with the Israeli aircraft, talking to the Americans in a deal that's suggesting that perhaps with the attorneys, according to one Russian official, that could be finalized. They tried to talk to the Turkish.

But now, we have this Russian craft, potentially, if Barbara's information at the Pentagon is correct, straying into what's NATO air space in Turkey being shot down. You know, Syria, Jim, as you know, has been a mess for different militia extremists, all sorts of nasty groups fighting it out on the ground.

Now, we have in the skies this very hot geopolitical cocktail of different militaries with different agendas. And this morning, the first sign of how messy and ugly it could get -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Barbara, Nick said it there, you have this cocktail of countries in the air space over Syria. U.S. coalition planes. You've got Syrian. You have the Russians now there. And, of course, Turkey very sensitive as well. What are -- what's the status of U.S. and Russian negotiations to agree on an air safety plan to deconflict at least their aircraft in the air over Syria?

STARR: This may be one of the few issues that Russia and the U.S. military is agreeing on right now. Both sides today saying that that technical agreement really could be signed at any point. All indications are it is complete. U.S. officials and Russian officials saying it will be signed shortly. But Pentagon very much emphasizing this is nothing more -- important but nothing more than a technical agreement on how their aircraft will operate in the skies. This is not about cooperating with the Russians.

SCIUTTO: So, Nick, you're in Turkey now, but you've been in Syria a number of times. The real concern here now is about lengthening this war. You have Iran and Russia propping up the Assad regime, not to mention, you know, you've got 16 different sides in this battle here. Based on your experience, does this push off the prospect of any sort of peaceful or political negotiations to end this fighting?

WALSH: Without doubt. And many observers see here that the Assad regime was really on the rocks against the wall when the Russians intervened is, perhaps, the Russians seeing that was the case, that coastal enclave (INAUDIBLE) where the Russians inserted those forces really under threat of moderate and extremist rebels to the northeast of that area.

So, the real issue here, Jim -- and you normally see, in a conflict, two sides. They go at each other. They get worn down. Their populations get tired of war and they come to a peace agreement. And then, there's sort of a life span of conflict. Here, in Syria, because of the proxy nature of the violence, we've seen Hezbollah come to the aid of the regime. We've seen different militia, like Al Nusra, front link to Al Qaeda, assisting the rebels. Now, the ISIS in the rebel area, too.

And now, on the regime side, once the Iranians, now the Russians. Each time it looks like one side might be tired enough to come to the table with the peace deal, someone else new comes into the conflict to prop them up. That's the problem here. And as you get more and more different actors in the region coming in, it's so much harder to find common ground to actually slow things down here -- Jim.

[13:25:14] SCIUTTO: No question, the death toll already in the hundreds of thousands. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, Nick Paton Walsh in Istanbul, thanks for joining us.

Well, the drone downing is complicating matters in an already messy situation, as we've said, in Syria. Here with me now is CNN Military Analyst, retired Air Force Colonel -- Lieutenant Colonel Frank -- Rick Francona. He served many years in Syria as an intelligence officer.

So, Colonel, you know this arguably better than anybody. Explain to us just how complicated and how dangerous the skies are over Syria right now with all those countries operating there.

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA (retired), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, and I think -- I think Nick had the right word, this mixed up cocktail of all these different countries.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

FRANCONA: You've got Russian aircraft, Syrian aircraft, American aircraft, Turkish aircraft, Gulf Arab aircraft, all operating in the -- in the air space. And you've only got two sides, really. You've got two separate command and control entities. And right now, they're not cooperating or even coordinating with each other. So, and any time you've got that much high performance aircraft in a confined area, you're going to have problems.

Now, this drone thing today, not surprising that we haven't seen this before. But if you look at these drones and where it went -- this one particular drone where it went down north of Aleppo inside of Turkey, it fits what the Russians are doing. They're fighting in an area called Idlib which just to the east of that area that Nick was describing, the Allaway (ph) homeland there on the coast. It would make sense that the Russians have drones up there.

I suspect what happened is this drone just went north and it flew out of its command link. And that's why the Turks had to shoot it down. It was not -- it was under nobody's control. I think it was a flight safety issue, not just a violation of their air space. They had to knock that thing down because it was out of control.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, you do have some progress, as Barbara was reporting on talks between the U.S. and Russia to de-conflict their aircraft so they don't end up shooting at each other or running into each other in the air.

But on the bigger picture issue, U.S. and Russia are on opposite sides of this war. Russia propping up Assad. The U.S. backing some rebels that are fighting Assad and clearly focused on ISIS there. That's a -- that's a big difference showing, no, you can't negotiate out of that problem. As you look at that, what is your view of where this goes from here? I mean, this war has dragged on for four years. Is there any way to bring those sides closer together or are we looking at really just lengthening a very bloody situation on the ground?

FRANCONA: Well, unfortunately, Jim, I think we're lengthening this situation. I think when the Americans and the Russians finally get to this technical agreement that Barbara was referring to, it's not going to be any kind of cooperation, like, oh, you're going to strike these targets, we're going to strike those targets. I think the only way you can sensibly and safely do this is to just do it by time. Say the United States and coalition are going to operate during these hours and the Russians are going to operate during these hours, because we will be striking targets that are opposed to each other. So, it's very, very difficult.

And, Jim, I have to tell you, this is a recipe for disaster.

SCIUTTO: Yes, recipe, and I want to ask you about that specifically, because even if you de-conflict your aircraft, you have the U.S. supplying very capable weapons to some rebels, for instance the tow missile which is an anti-armor, anti-tank missile. You've got the Russians with tanks on the ground and soldiers on the ground, aircraft in the air. There's a danger of Russia being response -- well, U.S. being responsible for Russian soldier's deaths, right? I mean, you could -- and possibly the other way around, at least in the air. I mean, that is not just a recipe for disaster, that's, potentially, a recipe for war, isn't it?

FRANCONA: And I think what we're seeing is the beginning of a new proxy war between the United States and Russia. You've got the Russians, of course they've got the Iranians, the Syrians, now the Cubans, Hezbollah on the ground acting as sort of their boots on the ground. We are supporting the Syrian Kurds and the moderate rebels. And these guys are fighting each other.

And as you say, somebody is going to get killed that is an American or a Russian, and it's going to lead to probably -- maybe an escalation. So, I think it's important that we get -- first, we get the air coordination taken care of and then we figure out how to get all of these people to the table. I think that's the end game here is that we get everybody to the table and come up with some political situation that everybody can live with. But I don't see that happening any time soon, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

FRANCONA: The Russians are just putting too much force in there, and we're destroying a lot of their equipment with the tow missile. You've got two sides going head-to-head right now.

SCIUTTO: Yes, all you can hope for is peaceful progress. Rick Francona, thanks very much for joining us. Coming up next, new information on another breaking news story. We've been following those injured and still missing in that Houston, Texas scaffolding collapse. Stay with us. We're going to have an update right after this

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