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Two Americans Killed in Jordan Shooting; Interview with Lindsey Graham; Russian Reaction to MetroJet Crash; Bernie Sanders, Wife Jane Talk Campaign. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired November 09, 2015 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00] SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R), SOUTH CAROLINA & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: -- that is showing the ability to plan a sophisticated attack, and to communicate outside of Syria and Iraq with another terrorist organization. They have pledged allegiance to ISIL, and if that is true, and the scenario where ISIL can work with another terrorist group to bring down a jet airliner, it shows they have capability more than any of us have been talking about.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: You have been spending a lot of time focusing on the national security issues --

GRAHAM: Yeah.

BLITZER: -- especially ISIS, but it is not resonating so far in the national polls --

GRAHAM: That is right.

BLITZER: -- and including the local polls, and including a new poll in your home state of South Carolina. And why is that?

GRAHAM: You know, I really think that national polling captures the moment and I'm not that well known. And at the end of the day, John McCain endorsed me today in New Hampshire. And he has a TV ad and two radio ads, talking about I will be the first person to be commander- in-chief and to deal with ISIL. I hope that will break through over time. South Carolina, I will only do well if I do well outside of South Carolina, and I have to be seen as a viable candidate outside of my state. And I just won a six-way primary last years, and I know that I will do well if I take New Hampshire.

But one thing, going into this area with Russia to destroy ISIL is dangerous. What Russia wants is to keep Assad in power, and if you do that, you are giving Damascus to the Iranians, and that will not be acceptable to the region. So I suggest to the Obama administration, do not join forces with Russia to fight ISIL if the price is to keep Assad in power. That hurts us more than help us.

BLITZER: This new Monmouth University polls has you back in August at 4 percent in South Carolina, but now down to 1 percent in your home state. That must be frustrating.

GRAHAM: Well, it is frustrating in the sense that I can't get on the stage. Maybe in the December 15th CNN debate, we will have a different way of doing this. But we've never done this before. I got knocked off of the undercard debate based on a poll where my name is not on it. And I can promise you that if you don't put my name in the poll, I will not do well.

But I know South Carolina. I've got to show my ability outside of New Hampshire. And the message for me is national security. I believe that you have to have boots on ground to destroy ISIL in Iraq and Syria. I've been saying for two years on your show -- and you've been very good to have me on -- that we cannot win the war against ISIL without a ground component. You need Turkey and the Arabs coming together with us, and you need 90 percent them and 10 percent us. 5,000 to 10,000 of Americans are going to have to be part of a regional force to go on the ground to destroy ISIL in Syria, or they will never be destroyed, and they will hit us here at home. I hope that other people in the Republican Party side will understand that Obama's strategy is not working. You won't win the war from the air. And 50 Special Forces is not going the cut it. We need regional army and we'll have to be part of that army, with a no-fly zone inside of Syria. And if you don't do those things, we are going to be hit here at home.

BLITZER: And we will find out in the coming weeks whether that message --

GRAHAM: Yeah, we will.

BLITZER: -- resonates with the Republican voters nationally, and with these early states.

Thank you, Senator, for joining us.

GRAHAM: OK, thank you.

BLITZER: Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.

U.S. officials say it is almost certain that the downing of the Russian plane came from a bomb planted inside. Just ahead, we will talk about why the Russian statements about the crash aren't nearly as definitive, but their actions are pretty significant.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:37:57] BLITZER: U.S. officials are increasingly convinced that terrorists are responsible for the taking down of that Russian MetroJet over Egypt, killing 224 people. One official telling CNN that the U.S. is 99.9 percent certain it was a bomb. Conversations intercepted by intelligence of an ISIS affiliate in Egypt are adding to the belief that a bomb brought down that plane.

Meanwhile, Turkey's prime minister tells our own Christiane Amanpour that the plane attack should be a call of action.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AHMED DAVUTOGLU, TURKISH PRIME MINISTER: This not an attack against a Russian airplane, but it is an attack against all of us. So therefore it shows that if the crisis is not solved in any particular country or region, then it is going to affect us all. Therefore, it is time to work together against any terrorist threat by any terrorist group. We have to work together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And our international viewers can see much more of that interview coming up at the top of the hour on "Amanpour." Our North American viewers can see it early tomorrow as well at 2:00 a.m. eastern.

Let's talk more about the Russian reaction to the incident. Marvin Kalb is the author of the brand new book, "The Imperial Grail: Putin, Ukraine and the New Cold War," and of course, there is the book jacket, and a long time former correspondent with NBC News as the former Moscow bureau chief.

Marvin, thank you for coming in.

MARVIN KALB, AUTHOR & FORMER NBC NEWS MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF: Pleasure.

BLITZER: And thank you for writing the book.

So assuming it ISIS or an ISIS affiliate targeting a Russian airliner, what is Putin going to do?

KALB: One of the things that he will do is to strike back. He is a leader that is supremely self-confident and thinks any action he does is the smartest action. He took this action in Syria, because he thought that he could do a marvelous thing there. Where he is going to have a lot of trouble is a Muslim backlash. What people forget is that the population is 144 million, and 21 million, and one of seven, is a Muslim. They are Sunni Muslims. Russia is now bombing and killing Sunni Muslims. So the sermons that we hear about now are almost copies of ISIS sermons. So there is already this restive stuff going on there inside of Russia right now, and the idea of a possible Chechnyan-like attack has to be taken very seriously.

[13:40:30] BLITZER: When he did face Muslim revolt in Chechnya, he went in with full force.

KALB: Full force. There were two wars and a second war was under his command and he was engaged in a murderous campaign killing everyone who opposed him.

BLITZER: So he will step up Russian involvement, let's say, in Syria to go after this ISIS forces in Raqqa, which is their headquarters, for example?

KALB: Yes, because it will look as though he is a pussy-cat. That is one thing that Putin cannot tolerate. He wants to project strength. This is the new Russia, the Russia under him, and that suggests he will do just about anything. He has said many, many times that when a bear -- and he likes to associate himself with the bear -- when a bear is in the corner, and it is trapped, it strikes out. This is the kind of mindset that he has got. He cannot tolerate being seen as somebody weak. He makes fun, as a matter of fact, of President Obama, and he will say that Obama is projecting weakness, but I would never do that.

BLITZER: And all of us remembering, and you, of course, covered it, in the 1980s when the Soviet Union got involved in a quagmire in Afghanistan and had to eventually walk away, and he remembers that as well.

KALB: He remembers that as well, and there are many soldiers in Russia who remember that, and it is one of the areas of restiveness and discontent. There is a lot of bubbling unhappiness in Russia right now, and Putin believes that he can ride over it all, but he can't. There are realities in Russia that are going to be catching up with him, and the first thing that we should look toward is the Muslim reality.

BLITZER: Can the U.S. and Russia cooperate in the war against ISIS?

KALB: They ought to be able to cooperate at this point, but it is going to be extremely difficult. Putin says he wants to cooperate, but he doesn't. He wants to achieve all of the glory for himself and for Russia. To join the U.S. right now in a common effort against ISIS would be something that he did not plan. The U.S. would be delighted if it happened, and it would be a smart thing.

BLITZER: Marvin Kalb is the author of the brand new very important book," "Imperial Gamble: Putin, Ukraine and the New Cold War."

And let's hope that there is not a new Cold War, because those of us who lived through the last Cold War are not happy about it.

KALB: Thanks you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Marvin, thank you for coming in, thanks for writing this book.

KALB: Thank you.

Coming up, a side of presidential candidate, Bernie Sanders, that you have rarely seen. Our own Gloria Borger interviewed the Independent Senator, who is running for the Democratic presidential nomination, and his wife, about life on the campaign trail, and why he decided to run in the first place.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:47:49] BLITZER: Running for president is certainly an expensive, exhaustive and grueling ordeal, and that is just for the candidate. What about the candidate's spouse? Like most, Jane Sanders, the wife of the Democratic presidential hopeful, was a reluctant partner at first.

The two sat down with our chief political analyst, Gloria Borger, to talk about all of aspects of the campaign, including if Jane Sanders had second thoughts about her husband's running for president.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JANE SANDERS, WIFE OF BERNIE SANDERS: I kept on saying, isn't there another way that you can come up with for getting the issues out on the table.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I), VERMONT & DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: For Jane, the turning point is that we were in Denny's having breakfast one day in south Burlington, Vermont, and a veteran came over, and with tears in his eyes, he thanked me for the work that we had done to help him and he urged me to get into the race.

JANE SANDERS: After standing up to say goodbye to him, I said, OK, I give up, you have to do it.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Did the sort of rocket ship surprise you when you took off on the college campuses, and the "Feel the Bern" and there was the sales of Bernie Sanders' underwear?

BERNIE SANDERS: Oh, my god, we have created a t-shirt and underwear revolution in America. The industry is booming, and unbelievable. But to answer the question, it has resonated a heck of a lot faster.

BORGER: And is so there is a buzzword that we use a lot in campaigns, and that is authenticity and we always talk about the authenticity.

JANE SANDERS: He is very authentic, and I mean, what you see is what you will get. And he has been consistent on the issues, and I know that one of the things in Vermont feel is that we get support from the Republicans in Vermont, and they say, I disagree with you on many, many things that you say, but I know that you are saying what you believe and you will do what you say.

BERNIE SANDERS: Gloria, look at this haircut. That is authentic.

(LAUGHTER)

Cost me $2,000 --

(LAUGHTER)

-- to go to a hairstylist to create this.

BORGER: Some how I don't believe that's the truth.

BERNIE SANDERS: You don't believe that?

BORGER: "The New York Times" has said, I'm sure you read it, that Bernie Sanders has a grumpy demeanor, grumpy and makes the case that you are not a great schmoozer.

BERNIE SANDERS: Am I grumpy? Yeah, I suppose.

BORGER: Is he grump?

JANE SANDERS: He does the doom and the gloom speeches, and I tell him to bring it back to the hope at the end. But, no, he is not grumpy really, but except for when the media does not pay attention to him.

(LAUGHTER)

[13:50:05] BERNIE SANDERS: I am not -- if the question is, am I a good schmoozer with other politicians, no, I'm not so great at that. Do I enjoy retail politics? The answer is I really do. I love going out.

BORGER: Some people say they won't vote for you because you're a Democratic Socialist and Socialist is a loaded term in this country. What can you do to convince people that the Socialist label here? I like the way you approve my question.

BERNIE SANDERS: Good question.

BORGER: I like the way you approve my question.

(LAUGHTER)

Good one, bad one.

BERNIE SANDERS: Not all your questions.

BORGER: I know. I know.

BERNIE SANDERS: Some of them.

What it means is to pick up on some very important federal programs that we now have, which if you like our Socialist. One is Social Security. It's a Socialist program that says that says our elderly people and our disabled people should be able to live with dignity. What do you think Medicare is? It is a single-payer health care system for the elderly. What it comes down to in one sentence is creating a government which works for the middle class and working families, rather than large campaign contributors and millionaires.

BORGER: Even if you don't win, will it have been worth it to have had this debate?

BERNIE SANDERS: We're in this race to win. My favorable is pretty high up there. Grumpy, though I may be, people do like me compared to other politicians.

BORGER: Are you a politician?

JANE SANDERS: I think of him as a public servant.

BERNIE SANDERS: But check the record and find if there's anybody in the United States Senate who has anything like the political history I have. I ran for the Senate way, way back. Know what percentage of votes I got? 2 percent. Then I got 1 percent. Then I got 4 percent. Then I got 15 percent. In other words, what motivated me? Do you think 30 years ago, I think, I'm going to become president? Let's plan it out, a 30-year route to become president. People do that.

BORGER: I've heard. (LAUGHTER)

BERNIE SANDERS: I don't. I grew up in a three and a half room, rent- controlled apartment. My parents were both deceased. This would be beyond their imagination. I think it's fair to say my life has been motivated from way back when I was a kid and the fight for social and economic justice, and that's what motivates me. It took me into politics and now, so, I'm a politician.

BORGER: Do you get him confused with Larry David?

JANE SANDERS: Not yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY DAVID, COMEDIAN: The only people I like are my seven adorable grandchildren.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERNIE SANDERS: They are the joy of my life.

BORGER: Do you do a Larry David imitation?

BERNIE SANDERS: What do you think I've been doing for the last half hour?

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Very funny.

Gloria is with us now.

Gloria, very good interview. You think he's enjoying all this?

BORGER: I think he is. I think they are both genuinely stunned or were stunned over the summer when he took off like a rocket ship and he got thousands of people at his rallies.

I think the problem that Bernie Sanders is having right now is how he translates that support into actual votes. And if he was once ahead of Hillary Clinton in Iowa and New Hampshire, not the case anymore. He's behind her hugely in South Carolina. Nationally, he's behind her by 30 points. So he's got a lot of ground to cover right now, particularly with African-American voters in the south. So they know they have a lot of work to do. They know they are the underdog truly in this race.

BLITZER: It's interesting he was in the House. Now he's been in the Senate for a long time. He presumably is seen more of as an outsider than Hillary Clinton.

BORGER: He is.

BLITZER: He's attracting support as a result.

BORGER: We have seen the outsiders on the Republican side doing well. I asked him at one point in the interview, Hillary Clinton has been endorsed by 31 people from Congress, you have not been endorsed by any, what does that show you? He says she's the candidate of the establishment and I'm not the candidate of the establishment, and that's how I'm going to win because voters don't want establishment candidates anymore.

He had a great summer. The question is whether he can duplicate any of that, Wolf, in the fall and going forward.

BLITZER: You think he regrets giving Hillary Clinton a pass on the e- mail issue at that first Democratic debate, CNN, Anderson Cooper moderated? He basically said enough with the damn e-mails.

BORGER: Right. I asked him that. He said, no, he doesn't regret it. I said you gave her a pass. And there were lots of Democrats who wanted you to take her on, on this. He said, no, I don't regret it because what you in the media -- again, here is where he sounds like Dr. Ben Carson. He said what you in the media want is to make this personal between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. He said this is about contrasting us on the issues. I don't want to take her on personally. I'm not going to talk about trust as an issue. Let the investigation proceed on her e-mails, but don't expect me to raise it. That's something you in the media want to talk about.

[13:55:18] BLITZER: Ben Carson is irritated with the news media.

BORGER: Totally irritated with the news media.

BLITZER: Why?

BORGER: Because he feels that we're making it personal when it should be about the issues. When you ask him to contrast with Hillary Clinton on the issues, he will say he was there first on opposing the Keystone Pipeline, for example, but he won't take her on personally.

BLITZER: Good work, Gloria. Thank you very much.

BORGER: Thank you.

BLITZER: We're going to have more of this interview later in "The Situation Room" as well.

Appreciate it very much.

BORGER: Thanks.

BLITZER: That's it for me. Thank you very much for watching. I will be back at 5:00 p.m. eastern in "The Situation Room."

For our international viewers, "Amanpour" is next.

For our viewers here in North America, NEWSROOM today with Brianna Keilar will start right after a quick break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)