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Mueller Says Trump Jr. and Manafort Can Testify; Eighth Person in Trump Jr. Meeting; Calls for Revoking Kushner's Security Clearance. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired July 18, 2017 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: -- because you need 60 votes to repeal certain regulations as opposed to other aspects of the Affordable Care Act. Explain that to our viewers.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's exactly right, Wolf.

And it's worth noting, again, most senators voted on this in the last Congress, most Republican senators. President Obama vetoed this bill. There's been a lot of conservatives, including President Trump of late calling to just do this repeal-only bill.

But this is not a repeal-all bill. Because of the reconciliation process, because of this budget process the Senate has been using to be able to pass something with just a simple majority, only 51 votes as opposed to 60, there are limits to what they can actually pass.

Essentially, it would have to deal with revenue or taxes. And because of that, what this would essentially do, this repeal-only bill, would repeal the insurance subsidies, would repeal the taxes. What it wouldn't repeal is the rules.

A lot of issues actually, Wolf, conservatives have real problems with. Things like protections for pre-existing conditions, the health benefits, guaranteed issue.

A lot of the protections that were put in place, a lot of the issues that conservatives said helped jack up premiums over the course of the last couple years, those wouldn't actually be repealed.

But the primary issue here is this. Republicans wanted to do something. They thought repeal-only was, kind of, their last option. An option endorsed by the president. That appears to have fallen apart as well.

And so, we are left essentially with the reality of this. Obamacare, the Affordable Care Act, remains the law of the land for the time being and the Senate needs to decide, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell who right now, Wolf, is meeting behind closed doors with his conference. Didn't even get a chance to explain this strategy behind those closed doors before it all appeared to fall apart.

He needs to decide, is it back to the drawing board? Is it something where you open up the door to Democrats and start working? Or do they move on? Do they move onto tax reform, like the president has said he might want to do? Those are all open questions.

Mitch McConnell will be talking to reporters here in a couple hours, Wolf. We'll see if we can get the answers.

BLITZER: Yes. And to be precise, it would have been a partial repeal but wouldn't even been complete repeal if they had been able to get that legislative process moving which, clearly, they have not been able to do, even that.

Phil Mattingly is on Capitol Hill. Thanks very much.

I want to go to our National Correspondent Jason Carroll over at the White House right now. So, take us through what we just heard from the president. His initial reaction very different to his subsequent reaction. He seems to be contradicting himself occasionally, at times, as well?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. If you're reading through those tweets, he seems to be doing that. But you just heard his statement there, saying he was first surprised to hear that this bill had failed.

And also disappointed, saying, once again, I'm just going to repeat here, that he is not going to own it. I tell you the Republicans are not going to own it.

We'll let Obamacare fail and then let the Democrats going forward come to us. So, this president saying, he's not going to own it. But, Wolf, he does own it. He's the president of the United States.

And there is a lot of critics out there saying he should have been doing more before we even got to this point. More in terms of engaging. I mean, you just look at the optics what happened yesterday.

He was out here yesterday on that fire truck wearing the cowboy hat touting America-made products when his critics say he really should have been burning the phones a lot more than what he was.

He had a dinner last night with Senate Republicans about health care. But these were Senate Republicans who were in support of health care. And critics say he should have been doing more to reach out to those in his own party who were against it.

I mean, you look at what the president did and did not do. He did not have a national address to the people to talk about why it was important to push this bill through.

He did not travel across the country and have rallies with his base about health care. These are some of the things that the president's critics, and frankly some of his supporters, say he should have been doing all along.

And yet, you now have this president who says, look, I'm not going to own it. The Republicans aren't going to own it. But you have to remember, the Democrats didn't have a hand in crafting this bill.

And so, that's really going to be a tough pill to swallow for a lot of folks who are watching this and basically saying, is this president now saying these folks should not be doing their job and just wait for it to fail? I really think that's going to be a tough pill to swallow for a lot of folks going forward -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Yes and he did something unusual for this president. Earlier this morning in that tweet at 7:53 a.m.

CARROLL: Right.

BLITZER: Jason, he tweeted, we were let down by all of the Democrats and a few Republicans. Most Republicans were loyal, terrific and worked really hard. We will return.

He is, in effect, conceding failure right now. And this is a president who never concedes failure. In this particular tweet, he is acknowledging he failed.

CARROLL: Acknowledging that and when you think about also what he just said, Wolf. On top of that, basically saying to allow this system to fail. I think there's an acknowledgement on both sides of the aisle that there needs to be things about Obamacare that need to be fixed.

So, essentially, he's telling the American people, he's the president of all the people, that he's just going to allow this to fail. Allow those who are having trouble finding insurance to just work it out. I think that really is going to be, again, as I said before, a tough pill to swallow for a lot of folks going forward.

[13:05:05] And it really, sort of, gets to another point about this president. I mean, when you talk about selling, you know, the repeal and replace bill that failed, a lot of folks saying this president should have been more engaged in the details of what was in this bill. Selling those details to the people, getting really down in there and selling it.

And the real feeling is that he just didn't do it. But you've heard from the president right now saying, look, despite all that, he is not owning it. Republicans are not going to own it. His thought, at this point, let it fail. Let Democrats come back to the table -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jason Carroll over at the White House. Going to be a busy day over there. Thanks very much.

Some of the sharpest opposition to the health care bill put forward by the Republicans came from governors, governors both Republican and Democrat alike.

Over the weekend, top health care officials and Vice President Mike Pence, they lobbied over at the National Governors Association meeting up in Rhode Island. The administration was trying to convince governors that changes in federal funding would not actually translate into cuts at the state level. I want to bring in one key governor, Arkansas Republican Asa Hutchinson is joining us right now. Governor, thanks so much for joining us.

GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON (R), ARKANSAS: Great to be with you, Wolf.

BLITZER: You expressed, Governor, deep concerns over the Senate Republican health care bill. Was your opposition based on possible cuts to Medicaid and how that would impact folks in Arkansas?

HUTCHINSON: Well, it was based upon a shift of cost to the states. We can do reform. We can have cost-saving measures that will help the federal government and the state government. But what the last plan was, was a too heavy of a shift of cost to the states that we could not absorb without having significant changes and cutbacks.

And so, you know, the -- I met with the vice president, our senators. They really accomplished some very substantive changes in the last version of the Senate bill that I asked for. They were moving in the right direction. But I was still concerned about the cost shift. And now we see the news that they're not going to be able to go forward.

From a state perspective. We're accomplishing reform in our state. We're trying to control costs that helps the federal government and the state government. We're trying to assure access in an affordable way but not create dependency.

That was going to be the four measures that we'll continue with regardless of what happens in Washington. But from a national perspective, and from a practical perspective, what we have nationally is not working. And I hope they can continue the change and the fight for changing the status quo.

BLITZER: You heard the Trump administration's arguments and you heard them directly from the vice president who was at that governors' meeting in Rhode Island. That funding changes wouldn't amount to actual cuts at the state level that could impact you as a governor of the state.

But why didn't the governors, Democratic governors and Republican governors, buy that argument?

HUTCHINSON: Well, actually, it merits a lot more study. Whenever you look at not just the Medicaid funding but they created a stabilization fund that I think was over $400 billion that was being placed into it. Those are funds that they make the point of that we could access to make sure that we're covering those that might not be able to sustain, or they need more support on the health insurance market or in wrap- around services.

So, that's something that needed more study. But the bottom line is, it was still a very significant reduction in the growth of Medicaid.

And let me emphasize, it's the growth of Medicaid spending. They're reducing that. We will share that. But it was really a too sharp and it would result in the states having to pick up too much of that burden.

BLITZER: Here's what the speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, said about the consequences of leaving Obamacare in place. Listen to this --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PAUL RYAN (R), WISCONSIN, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Well, I'm worried that this law -- I'm worried that Obamacare will stand and the law will continue to collapse and people will get hurt in the process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: So, what happens to health care, the insurance marketplace in your state? Arkansas, for example, if -- as it looks like it will be the case, the Affordable Care Act stays in place?

HUTCHINSON: Well, the problem with the Affordable Care Act staying in place from an Arkansas perspective, is that we're having to continually go to the federal government for the reforms that we need and get their permission.

While the Trump administration leans forward a great deal more, we're still not able to put into place the effective responsibility requirements, the cost-saving measures, and have the flexibility. Rules are changed in Washington under the law and we have to live with those. So, that system needs to change.

In terms of the marketplace, it is working. It's functioning here because we have a unique solution.

[13:10:03] We have -- instead of spending Medicaid dollars on Medicaid, we're actually spending those in the private marketplace. And that reform is giving more state stability to that market.

But you've got to look at it from a national perspective as well. Right now, the Affordable Care Act is leading us down a path of too much cost, too much growth in Medicaid. And that impacts the states as well.

And so, overall, we will participate in savings and in reform. But they need to be able to change the direction from Washington and that includes --

BLITZER: All right

HUTCHINSON: -- a repeal and reform and change of the Affordable Care Act.

BLITZER: So, over the past few hours, the president has come up with two solutions now that it's failed in the Senate. Last night at 10:17, he tweeted this. Republicans should just repeal, failing Obamacare now and work on a new health care plan that will start from a clean slate. Dems will join in. That's what he tweeted last night.

This morning, he tweeted a very different strategy. As I have always said, let Obamacare fail and then come together and do a great health care plan. Stay tuned.

Which one do you support? Try to repeal it and come up with a new plan in two years? Or simply let Obamacare, as the president says, fail and see what happens?

HUTCHINSON: Well, I think that illustrates the fact that we need to let the dust settle a little bit and some wise heads need to get together to figure out the direction. What Democrats and Republicans agree upon is that what we have right now is not workable over the long term. It's costing too much. We need to have more accessibility.

So, I hope that the Democrats will come to the table. I hope that they will participate in the next stage of the solution, because we've got to -- we've got to change it. We've got to have that reform and Democrats need to be at the table to accomplish that.

BLITZER: So, you're with Senator McCain on that. Start from scratch for all practical purposes. Get to work with Democrats. Come up with a bipartisan compromise, if you will, to try to improve the Affordable Care Act but not necessarily immediately go and repeal it or simply let it die. Is that right?

HUTCHINSON: Well, we've always wanted to have the future direction. I've always advocated that if you're going to repeal it, let us know in the states where we're going so we can plan in the stability in our delivery of health care. That's very important.

Now, I believe that there is a consensus that -- between Democrats and Republicans that we've got to change things. If that's the case, Democrats should come to the table and say, we will join that effort.

I think with that, we can actually accomplish something. And I hope that in Washington they can accomplish that.

BLITZER: Well, Asa Hutchinson is the Governor of Arkansas. Democrats say they're more than happy to work with the Republicans. They simply don't want to see the word, repeal, as part of that process. We'll see what happens next.

Governor Asa Hutchinson of Arkansas. Thanks, as usual, for joining us.

HUTCHINSON: Thank you.

BLITZER: Up next, we're following new details surrounding the meeting between Donald Trump Jr. and a Russian lawyer. CNN has now identified the eighth person in that room. This as the special council investigators, they are seeking information from that eighth person. Stay with us.

[13:13:37]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:17:13] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news. WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Following breaking news. The Senate Judiciary Committee's ranking member, the top Democrat, Dianne Feinstein, now says the Special Counsel Robert Mueller has given the committee the all-clear to go ahead and interview Donald Trump Jr. and Paul Manafort, the former Trump campaign chairman, in a public session. It comes as we learn more about the eighth person who attended last year's meeting with Donald Trump Jr. and a Russian attorney.

For all the latest developments, let's bring in our senior congressional reporter Manu Raju and our CNN justice correspondent Pamela Brown.

Manu, tell us a little bit more about Senator Feinstein, what she had to say about the Judiciary Committee's Russia investigation.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Yes, a significant development here, Wolf. The Senate Judiciary Committee now getting the green light from Bob Mueller's office to go ahead and interview in a public session Paul Manafort, the former campaign chairman to Donald Trump, as well as Donald Trump Jr., in light of that meeting that he had last year with Russians after he was told that he could get dirt on the Clinton campaign.

Now, this is a significant development because last week both Senator Dianne Feinstein, Senator Chuck Grassley had reached out to Bob Mueller's office to make sure that they would not conflict with his own investigation into Russia meddling. And what they got back from Bob Mueller's office is that it's not a problem. They can go forward with their own public hearings as long as they have really no issue there. This is according to Senator Dianne Feinstein, who I just talked to moments ago.

Now, also, Wolf, another significant development. I talked to the Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Richard Burr. I asked him specifically if he wants to learn more about what happened at that Trump Tower meeting. And he gave his most extensive comment to date about the fact that he does. And also wants to hear from those as well. Take a listen to Richard Burr.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Do you also feel like you understand everything about what happened in that Trump Tower meeting at this point?

SEN. RICHARD BURR (R), CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: No, absolutely not. I think that there's a lot to learn from that. And we've reached out to the appropriate people and asked them to provide information for us and to testify possibly publicly. But it's too early in that to draw any conclusions. But I, you know, our job is to put the facts on the table and follow wherever it goes.

RAJU: Do you want Don Jr. in public - do you want that - Don Jr. to -

BURR: I think you've got to ask Don Jr. to come in. Whether that's public or whether it's private or how you proceed and at what pace still yet to be determined by information that we learn between now and the time we make that request.

RAJU: Has he been cooperative, Don Jr.?

BURR: Oh, I think everybody in this administration has been cooperative up to this point, yes. Yes.

RAJU: Thank you, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[13:20:00] RAJU: So two significant developments there, Wolf. Two separate committees. The Intelligence Committee ready to move forward with hearings, either publically or privately, including with Don Jr. And now the Senate Judiciary Committee can move forward with that possible public testimony. The question is whether or not both Donald Trump Jr. and Manafort agree or whether they'll be hit with any subpoenas if they don't, Wolf.

BLITZER: What about Jared Kushner? He was also at that meeting. He's a senior adviser to the president right now, the president's son-in-law. Is he going to be called to testify as well?

RAJU: Well, certainly before the Senate Intelligence Committee there have been negotiations going back and forth about bringing him forward and then ask for records in light of that meeting. The Senate Intelligence Committee has done that. The question is, when does Jared Kushner come? We're not sure yet.

One other thing before the Senate Intelligence Committee today, Wolf, former Obama chief of staff Denis McDonough is meeting behind closed doors as part of that Russia meddling investigation. But we'll see when some of those big Trump associate, including Jared Kushner, also agree to come possibly behind closed doors as well, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Manu, stand by. Pamela's with us as well.

Pamela, the eighth person in the meeting a year ago, June of last year, at Trump Tower with Donald Trump Jr. has now been identified. You broke the story. You reported the name first. What can you tell us about this eighth person at the meeting?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: There's been so much mystery surrounding this eighth person, Wolf, and CNN has learned that he - the person who attended this June 2016 meeting with Donald Trump Jr. at Trump Tower is named Ike Kaveladze. His identity was confirmed by his attorney, Scott Balber. And Kaveladze is a senior vice president at Crocus Group, the real estate development company run by Russian Azerbaijani oligarch Aras Agalarov, according to his LinkedIn.

Now, his personal web site says, quote, he holds responsibility for multiple elements of the company's Russian development projects. So he has multiple projects in Russia. He studied at the Moscow Academy of Finance and also got an MBA from the University of New Haven in Connecticut according to his web site.

Now, Kaveladze is a U.S. citizen according to his attorney and he has worked for the Agalarov's business since 2004, which means he was with the company when it partnered with the Trump Organization to pull off the 2013 Miss Universe Pageant in Moscow. In fact, it appears, Wolf, that he is seen in video from 2013 exclusively obtained by CNN with the Agalarov family and with now President Trump. So he is seen in this video that we obtained exclusively that we presented last week.

So he apparently goes way back with the Agalarovs. The special council investigators, they have reached out to his attorney seeking information from Kaveladze as part of this Russia probe. And his attorney says that he is fully cooperating, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, fully cooperating. Let's see if he shows up and testifies as well. He is a U.S. citizen. Presumably he's not going to have much choice, especially if he's subpoenaed.

All right, Pamela, thank you very much.

Manu, thanks to you as well.

Good reporting on both of your parts.

Let's discuss all of this and more with our panel. I'm joined by our chief political analyst Gloria Borger, CNN politics reporter, editor at large, Chris Cillizza, and Shannon Pettypiece. She is the White House reporter for "Bloomberg News."

You know, Gloria, this meeting, take eight people now in the meeting, a translator from Russia. This was a - this was a big deal, this meeting.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, it was a big deal and the Agalarovs are, that family, really looms large in all of this. They're not an unknown quantity to the Trump family. Donald Trump Jr. has a relationship with the patriarch of this family. They did the Miss Universe Pageant together. Don Jr. has a relationship with Emin, the son. And I think that - and clearly they had somebody in there representing them in this meeting. Rob Goldstone is the publicist for the son. And so the Agalarov family is a family that I'm sure that the special counsel, as well as the congressional committees, are going to be looking to, particularly given Don Jr.'s e-mail in which Rob Goldstone said, you know, we have the stuff to deliver the connection. And - between Hillary Clinton and Russia and we're going to give that to you. And Don Jr., of course, responded, "love it." So I think that this is just, you know, another link in the chain here to this family, and this family between - and to the Trump family.

BLITZER: How do you see these late developments? We're learning a lot more about a meeting that initially was supposed to be about adoptions and all of a sudden it's a lot more than that.

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: And was dismissed as a 20- minute nothing burger, my words, not Don Jr.'s but essentially, nothing happened.

I agree with everything that Gloria said. I'll add that the fact that - the Russian lawyer was someone the Agalarovs sort of deputized to represent this information. That they had another representative in the room, which we now know the identity of - although we did know that that - we knew there were eight people in there - speaks to the fact that they took whatever information was being passed - or the meeting itself quite seriously. This was not a, hey, let's go and say hi to Don Jr. and Paul Manafort and Jared Kushner. This was something that they clearly were invested in.

[13:25:26] In terms of raw people attending it, and wanted to make sure that that information was conveyed in a way that was appropriate with what they believed it to be. So, again, dismissing this given the number of people and the "who" is involved, it's just getting harder and harder to do (ph).

SHANNON PETTYPIECE, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, "BLOOMBERG NEWS": I also think it seems unlikely to this characterization that, oh, after a few minutes, Kushner and Manafort lost interest and got up and walked out. So now it's sort of like a large, formal meeting. There are eight people in the room and you're - you just stand up in the middle of it and walk out. You know, which is one more thing that just doesn't seem believable. But, of course, nothing about what happened in this meeting seems believable at this point since this story has changed, I don't know, five times now, and we keep getting more information about who was there.

BLITZER: Well, the big problem, Shannon, that the president's son-in- law, Jared Kushner has is, he didn't disclose this meeting with these Russians on his security clearance questionnaire. Later he updated it and he disclosed it once they saw the black and white of the e-mail which described what this meeting was all about, namely getting dirt about Hillary Clinton, opposition research, from these Russians.

PETTYPIECE: Right, so why didn't he disclose it if -

BLITZER: Why didn't he?

PETTYPIECE: This wasn't a back of the hand - you know, a last-minute type of meeting. This was a large meeting. It should have been on his calendar. Why didn't he disclose it?

And we do now know that he, on the security clearance forms, they disclosed more than 100 other meetings. I've been asking and trying to find out, what are those other meetings? That's a question I want to know. So you had 100 other meetings. What were they? What else haven't they told us about their time during the campaign?

BLITZER: Does he have a problem right now with security clearance, Jared Kushner?

BORGER: Well - well, he dos, only in the sense that Democrats are demanding that his interim clearance be revoked. But, you know, in the end, this moves up the food chain and it's really up to the president to decide who he wants around him and who should get security clearance or not. So I doubt that Donald Trump would actually say, well, I don't think Jared Kushner should have security clearance. I mean, everybody, the FBI does its investigation, but the president can decide what he wants to do. BLITZER: And very quickly, do you think that Jared Kushner would

remember a meeting with eight people, including a Russian translator, a Russian lawyer. That's something you probably would remember.

CILLIZZA: Yes. Yes. I mean we were led to believe at the start of this that this was essentially the equivalent of passing in the hall, hey, we all know each other. It clearly was more than that. And to Shannon's point, the probably here is that it wasn't initially disclosed, both the meeting and the nature of the meeting, which as we've come to find out, you know, I haven't sat in a meeting with eight people in quite some time.

I mean, you know, this is a - this takes organization. This takes time. This takes investment. You have two - three of the top officials in the Trump campaign there. It's hard to believe that this was just a, well, we figured out, it was kind of about adoptions and then nothing. They're going to have to have a better explanation than that.

PETTYPIECE: Well, I think there's definitely concern in the White House about Kushner among those close to the White House.

BLITZER: About his security clearances.

PETTYPIECE: About his fate in the White -

BLITZER: If he doesn't have security clearances, he can't do his job.

PETTYPIECE: Yes, about his role or fate in that White House in general. There's definitely concern among those close to Trump about Kushner.

CILLIZZA: And it's important to note too, Wolf, just to close a loop. It's basically saying, we should get rid of Jared Kushner's security clearance means you should fire Jared. I mean Jared Kushner can't have that job -

BLITZER: Right.

CILLIZZA: You can't say, hey, Jared, could you step out? Hey, Jared, could you step out, every two seconds, right?: I mean that job, the nature of the job he has, requires it.

BLITZER: Right.

CILLIZZA: So it's one or the other.

BLITZER: Can't negotiate - can't negotiate Middle East peace without having security clearance.

CILLIZZA: No. Right. It would be tough.

BLITZER: That would be very - all right, guys -

BORGER: All right, but let's see what the president does.

PETTYPIECE: Right. BLITZER: We'll see what the -

PETTYPIECE: You are right, he does have the decision at the end of the day.

BORGER: It's up to the president.

BLITZER: Gloria, Chris, Shannon, guys, thanks very much.

CILLIZZA: Thank you.

BLITZER: The promise to repeal and replace Obamacare served certainly as a major pillar of President Trump's winning campaign. So what is the bills collapse now reveal about the party's future, the party's ability to push ahead with an agenda?

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