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North Korea And U.S. Meet; United Nations Security Council; Trump Bashes FBI; Flynn Parson; Trump on Rebuilding FBI; Trump Says No Collusion. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired December 15, 2017 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 9:00 p.m. in Moscow, 2:30 a.m. Saturday in Pyongyang, North Korea. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us. An extraordinary moment that the United Nations, just now, representatives from the U.S. and North Korea in the very same room and the very same table. It's the first time in a decade.

North Korea's ambassador has addressed the U.N. Security Council, accusing the United States of ratcheting up the tensions on the Korean Peninsula and saying his country is a responsible nuclear power. The secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, immediately responding.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REX TILLERSON, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The EPRK (ph) must be held accountable for its actions. And in that regard, any notion that the source of tensions on the peninsula are the fault of no one party. There is but one party that has carried out illegal detonation of nuclear devices. There is but one party that continues to launch intercontinental ballistic missiles in violation of U.S. Security Council resolutions.

They, alone, are responsible for these tensions. They, alone, must take responsibility for these tensions. And they, alone, can solve these tensions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Let's go to our Senior Diplomatic Correspondent Michelle Kosinski. She's joining us from New York right now.

This is pretty extraordinary, what's going on, and I know you've been speaking to people behind the scenes. What are you learning?

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN SENIOR DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, so much anticipation going into this.

Just the oddity of having Secretary of State Tillerson across from the North Korean representative at the U.N. Security Council. I mean, so much anticipation into what each side would say. In the end, though, I think a lot of this was expected.

But some big questions that we did get something of an answer to. First of all, what is Rex Tillerson talking about? Does he mean, based on his words, not just today but over the past several days, that the U.S. truly has no preconditions before sitting down and starting to talk to North Korea?

We suspected that there are preconditions, despite what Tillerson said just earlier this week. And, today, we found out that that is true.

I mean, he had these prepared remarks in which he was going to reiterate what he said the other day. That there are no preconditions in the same breath as talking about something of preconditions.

But he left that phrasing out completely. He did not say there are no preconditions. In fact, today, the emphasis was fallibly (ph) on there being a big precondition, that North Korea would need to stop the testing and have that silence before those talks could commence. So, that, then, is somewhat settled.

The other big question is, would there be any softening on the side of North Korea? Would they at least start to see some of the same reality that the U.S. sees? And the answer to that was a big no.

They, essentially, blamed the U.S. for their continued nuclear advancements to defend themselves. And said that it's the U.S. that must be held accountability.

And that caused this tense back and forth then. Because the secretary of state wanted to respond to North Korea's words. I mean, North Korea, in this setting, called itself responsible and peace-loving. But Secretary of State Tillerson said, well, we've heard these words before and, basically, we are not buying that.

He emphasized the illegal nature of North Korea's nuclear program. Another back and forth, though, that was quite tense was with Russia.

Because what we've heard from President Trump and now Secretary Tillerson this week is that when they're talking about this pressure campaign on North Korea that continues, and they want to keep building that. They're now not pushing China so much. They feel like China has made strides.

Now, they're criticizing Russia. Today. Secretary Tillerson mentioned the slave-like conditions that exist when Russia allows these workers in from North Korea. And then, that funds North Korea's nuclear program.

Well, the Russian representative flatly denied that. He called out Tillerson for mentioning that. So, a little more tension there between Russia and the United States role.

BLITZER: Very significant potentially indeed. And we know the presidents, both of them, President Trump and Putin, spoke about North Korea on their -- during their phone conversation yesterday. President Trump clearly wanting the Russians to do more. Michelle, we're going to get back to you. Thanks very much. Michelle Kosinski reporting from New York.

Let's bring in our CNN Global Affairs Analyst Tony Blinken, formally served as the former deputy secretary of state and deputy to the national security advisor under President Obama. Tony thanks very much for coming in.

[13:05:02] In and of itself, how significant is it, from your perspective, someone who's dealt with North Korea for a long time, that the North Korean representative is there at the U.N. Security Council and the U.S. secretary of State is there as well?

TONY BLINKEN, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Look, it is an important because I think it signals that the North Koreans may want to talk. And it certainly signals that Secretary Tillerson is prepared to talk because he said, the other day, unfortunately, he's been undercut by his own boss, by President Trump.

What the secretary has been trying to do is to fashion a policy that has both sides of the coin you need. That is, on the one hand, pressure. And the administration has done a good job in continuing to build pressure on North Korea.

But the other side, too, diplomacy. That is being very clear that we are prepared to talk. We are prepared to engage. That sends a good message to China as well as to North Korea.

The problem is, as soon as Tillerson said that, a couple of days ago, the White House came out within 24 hours and undermined what he said.

So, the problem now, Wolf, is that there is confusion. We should all be waiting to see what the next tweet is going to be on this. Is he going to support what the secretary did today or is he going to undermine it?

BLITZER: Well, the fact that the North Koreans sent someone to address the United Nations Security Council, the fact that last week, they invited, excuse me, an American, Jeffrey Feldman, the Deputy Secretary General at the United Nations for political affairs, a former U.S. ambassador, retired State Department diplomat, to go to Pyongyang. That also reinforces their notion. This was a North Korean invitation. They want to talk.

BLINKEN: That's right. And I think that may be because the pressure campaign is starting to bite. We're seeing evidence of that. But you've got to sustain it and you've got to continue to build it. But you can do two things at once.

And you have to do two things at once. That is continue the pressure but also make clear that you're prepared to talk. That the objective of the pressure is not to take down the Kim regime, as heinous as it may be, but to get them to the table to talk meaningfully about denuclearization.

BLITZER: You heard Michelle Kosinski report that in his prepared remarks, that Secretary of State Tillerson said there are no preconditions for talks, nor will we accept preconditions from North Korea or others.

But I don't know why he omitted saying that during his formal remarks.

BLINKEN: He may have got a lot --

BLITZER: What does that say to you?

BLINKEN: -- he may have gotten a last-minute message from the White House to drop it. He may have anticipated the fact that the president would probably come in and undermine that passage of his -- of his text. Who knows.

But the fact is, the problem we've had is that we are not speaking with one voice on our North Korea policy. There has been some sense that there was a, sort of, good cop-bad cop routine between Tillerson and the president.

What we've seen, I think, is more of a good cop-rogue cop routine. Where Tillerson has been advancing a sensible policy with pressure on the one hand, diplomacy on the other. And the president takes the diplomacy off the table.

Now, it may be that there are others in the administration, including in the White House, who don't believe there is a diplomatic way forward with North Korea, and who believe that we can't deter them from using their weapons that. That leads you down a very dangerous path of some kind of pre-emptive military strike.

If that were to happen, the entire Pandora's box is open and we're heading for a big, big problem.

BLITZER: Yes. I want you to listen to this exchange, a reporter asking the secretary of state about potentially differences with the president. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does it remain a precondition for the United States and arguing President Trump on the same page on whether and when to engage in talks?

TILLERSON: The president's policy on North Korea is quite clear and there is no daylight at all between the president's policy and the pursuit of that policy.

And the president, I think, has been very clear that we are going to lead this pressure campaign. We're going to unite the international community and we're going to keep the pressure as much as we can and increase it where possible.

Most recently, the president called President Xi personally and asked him for China to cut the oil supplies off to North Korea to increase this pressure. That is intended to lead to diplomatic talks.

In the meantime, the president's been very clear, military, we are going to be prepared should something go wrong. And our military --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. So, what did you think of that answer?

BLINKEN: Well, the secretary is putting a very good face on it. He did a nice job trying to show that there is no daylight.

The fact is, time and time again, the president has put a huge daylight, himself, on the daylight that seems to exist between himself and Secretary Tillerson, undercutting the secretary's efforts of diplomacy.

Again, you've got to do both. And the administration is doing a good job on the pressure. But now, we need the diplomatic piece. That's what Tillerson's trying to do. That's what the president keeps undercutting.

BLITZER: You give the Trump administration credit for squeezing the Chinese to reduce their assistance, their trade, especially in vital areas, with North Korea. But you also heard the president yesterday say he's, sort of, disappointed the Russians aren't doing enough.

BLINKEN: Well, he's actually right about that. Of course, the fact that he seems to give Putin a pass on everything else, probably doesn't increase our leverage with the Russians to do more.

One of the problems is the North Koreans are getting millions of dollars, 10s of millions of dollars in revenue from the remittances that their guest workers send back to North Korea. Not to their families but to the regime.

And many of these so-called guest workers are in Russia, working in abhorrent conditions. We want the Russians to crack down on that.

[13:10:01] BLITZER: How can the secretary of state -- you've worked with several secretaries of state. How can the secretary of state really do an effective job when he or she is undermined by the president of the United States, publicly?

BLINKEN: You can't, she can't, impossible. The problem is, even when the secretary is advancing a very sensible policy and trying to rally others, people simply wait to see what's going to happen within 24 hours of the president's tweets, undermine everything they have just heard from the secretary.

It makes it very hard, if not impossible, for him to do his job effectively.

BLITZER: Did -- let me get back to Ambassador Jeffrey Feltman, the deputy secretary general of the U.N., an American.

BLINKEN: Yes.

BLITZER: A career diplomat from the State Department who's now working at the United Nations. Let me get back to that visit. How significant, potentially, was it? The first time in years that the North Korean regime has invited someone from the United Nations, and specifically an American citizen, to go to Pyongyang.

BLINKEN: Yes, this was no mistake. Jeff --

BLITZER: You know Jeffrey Feltman.

BLINKEN: I know Jeff Feltman very well. We worked closely together.

BLITZER: He was the assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern affairs.

BLINKEN: He was.

BLITZER: He was the U.S. ambassador in Lebanon. He's someone with a long history at the State Department.

BLINKEN: He was one of our most senior diplomats, one of our most effective diplomats who, then, went over to work for the United Nations and is in one of the most important jobs at the U.N.

So, the fact that he was invited over, not just in this capacity, as a senior U.N. diplomat, but also, as you said, as an American, I think does send a message.

And, again, my hope is the message is North Korea is prepared to engage. That would be -- we should test that proposition. We should call their bluff.

It also says, to the Chinese, if we make clear that we're prepared to talk and North Korea, at the end of the day, doesn't, it also makes clear to the Chinese that the problem is North Korea and that they should continue to ratchet up the pressure. That would help the pressure campaign.

BLITZER: Tony Blinken, thanks so much.

BLITZER: Good to be here, Wolf.

BLITZER: There is more news we're following, including a Republican tax bill here in Washington is done. The final language approved late last night. But the question remains, do they have enough votes for it to get passed and get to the president's desk next week?

Plus, President Trump expressing anger at the FBI, calling the agency sad and disgraceful, while promising to rebuild it. We will have details and a lot more when we come back.

[13:12:56]

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[13:16:22] BLITZER: President Trump praising police after bashing the nation's top law enforcement agency, the FBI. The president spoke at a graduation ceremony for state, local and international law enforcement over at the FBI National Academy in Quantico, Virginia. But before leaving the White House, he slammed what he called the

disgraceful, his word, disgraceful actions by the FBI. He criticized the agency's role of the Russia investigation and its handling of the Hillary Clinton e-mail probe.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What we have found, and what they have found, after looking at this really scam, is they found tremendous -- whatever you want to call it, you're going to have to make up your own determination -- but they found tremendous things on the other side. When you look at the Hillary Clinton investigation, it was -- you know, I've been saying it for a long time, that was a rigged system, folks. That was a rigged system. When you look at what they did with respect to the Hillary Clinton investigation, it was rigged.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Let's go to our senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta.

Jim, the president also insisted there's been no evidence, as he always says, of collusion with Russia between his campaign and the Russians. Do his comments help fuel what is seen as a right wing narrative that the independent counsel's investigation right now, Robert Mueller's investigation, is biased?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think it certainly does, Wolf. And I think it also is an echo of what it being said on conservative media about this Muller investigation. You have a lot of people in conservative media these days attacking the Mueller investigation, pointing to that FBI agent who was reassigned, whose texts I guess denigrating the president and came to light. The president was obviously seizing on that when he was leaving the White House earlier this morning.

But, Wolf, it's interesting to note the president was making those comments as he was heading down to an FBI National Academy ceremony down in Quantico. At that ceremony he praised federal and local law enforcement officials. But it was here at the White House where the president was saying it's a shame what's happened to the FBI and that a lot of people are very angry about what's happening at the FBI. It appears the president is essentially echoing what he is hearing in conservative media.

Now, at the same time, another thing that the president said when he was out there on the South Lawn of the White House is that we'll see when it comes to whether he would pardon Michael Flynn, who pled guilty a couple of weeks ago to lying to federal investigators in the Russia investigation. He said, we'll see whether Michael Flynn might get pardoned.

I asked Ty Cobb, who is a White House lawyer over here, about that and here's what he said to me. He is essentially saying, no, that is not under consideration at this point. But he gave us a brief statement. If we put it up on screen. He said, that is not being considered right now over here at the White House.

Of course, that leaves open the possibility that it might be considered down the road, that it might be considered by the president's attorneys outside of the White House. But it is a bit of a contradiction there when you have a White House lawyer saying, no, that is not under consideration and yet the president of the United States, just a couple of hours ago, as he was leaving the White House, said it is something that he isn't closing the door on. He didn't rule it out. He said, we'll see. There you see it right there, there is no consideration being given to a pardon for Michael Flynn.

So, Wolf, once again, as the president is calling this investigation a hoax and so on, there seems to be conflict signals as to how the White House is handling the president's legal defense and this investigation.

Wolf.

BLITZER: Yes, I've got to go back to -- also to that December 3rd tweet by the president when he said, the reputation of the FBI is in tatters. Worst in history -- those are his words -- worst in history today, though he promised to rebuild the agency. What does he mean?

[13:20:14] ACOSTA: I think that is a huge question, Wolf. What does the president of the United States mean when he says he wants to rebuild the FBI? If you talk to a lot of people around Washington, Republicans, Democrats up on Capitol Hill, and we saw this during the Rod Rosenstein hearing earlier this week, there are members of both party who say that the reputation, the standing of the FBI is just fine. And here you have the president of the United States, who is under investigation by the Justice Department, under investigation -- his team is under investigation by the special counsel's office, and yet he is there talking about the FBI's reputation being in tatters and saying he wants to rebuild the FBI.

I have to think, Wolf, that there are people inside the bureau who are taking the president's words as some kind of indication that he is putting some pressure on the FBI, that if they don't bend to I guess his -- his feelings on all of this, that there might be some personnel changes over there. When you're saying that the FBI is going to be rebuilt, I would imagine, Wolf, you're talking about some kind of personnel change inside that bureau. And I -- one would have to think, after, you know, talking to law enforcement officials here in this city for many years, you -- you have done this as well, people can read between the lines and see what the president is trying to say there?

BLITZER: Jim Acosta at the White House, thanks so very much.

Here's a little bit more of what President Trump said on the FBI and its work in the Russia investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Everybody, not me, with everybody, the level of anger at what they've been witnessing with respect to the FBI, it's certainly very sad.

(INAUDIBLE).

TRUMP: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Yes, the president said it's very disgraceful. Very, very disgraceful.

Let me bring in our panel. A.B. Stoddard is with us, associate editor and columnist for RealClearPolitics. Carrie Cordero is with us, the former counsel to the U.S. assistant attorney general for national security, and our chief political analyst, Gloria Borger.

You know, Gloria, I guess it's sort of extraordinary to hear a president, as he's about to leave the White House to go speak at an FBI graduation ceremony, say these words about the FBI.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: And, honestly, what he is saying publicly today, according to my reporting, is what he is telling people privately.

Look, he hasn't trusted the FBI since Comey. He didn't really like Comey very much. He clearly is listening to what's going on, on Capitol Hill among Republicans and believes that they are right that the FBI is tainted and biased against him.

You know, the question is, and I think, you know, there is a -- there is an issue here for the president's attorneys who are cooperating fully with the special counsel and Mueller as the former chief of the FBI. And so I think he may create some more problems for his legal team, at least political issues for them in a way, if he continues to do this.

BLITZER: Yes, while he was in Quantico, Carrie, speaking to the FBI, he was very praiseworthy, very complimentary to what the men and women of the FBI and law enforcement are doing. But just, once again, leave -- before leaving the White House he said this of the FBI. What they've done is very, very disgraceful and you have a lot of angry people that are see it. It's a very sad thing to watch. I will tell you that.

He was referring to the way the FBI engaged in the Hillary Clinton e- mail probe and presumably the Russia probe that's ongoing right now.

CARRIE CORDERO, FORMER COUNSEL TO U.S. ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR NATIONAL SECURITY: Well, you know, it's interesting. So he was at the FBI Academy, but he was at the graduation for what's the national academy, which is actually law enforcement officers. And so that's a community that received him warmly today and yet he makes positive remarks about law enforcement officers, state and local police. He made positive comments about ICE, Immigration Enforcement, Border Patrol. The only law enforcement organization that he continue to attack verbally is the FBI. And the FBI is the only investigatory agency that has been looking and is responsible for the Russia probe. And so for a pro-law enforcement president, it really does look like

the only reason he doesn't like that agency is because they have been involved in conducting the entire Russia inquiry, which is their job from a counter intelligence and a criminal investigative perspective.

BLITZER: A.B., how do you see it?

A.B. STODDARD, ASSOCIATE EDITOR AND COLUMNIST, REALCLEARPOLITICS: I think it's -- he's making it perfectly clear he wants to do some house cleaning and everyone's focused on Mueller, but I think it's pressure -- a couple weeks ago Sarah Sanders said at the briefing, we're just disappointed in the political leadership at the FBI. The rank and file are great. And so there's real pressure now for Chris Wray, who's the head of the FBI, to dump Andrew McCabe, who's the deputy head of the -- director of the FBI, because it was in his office that Peter Strzok was talking about an insurance policy, this e-mail that's getting so much attention this week.

[13:25:09] And it's really something that Republicans on The Hill are going to have to focus on. They have to be ready for whatever moves they are going to do in terms of trying to fire and resort at the FBI and the DOJ.

BORGER: Yes, and this is a very public sign that the president is saying, green light, continue to do this. Continue to pressure the FBI. Continue to pressure this investigation.

And I think what the president may not know is that Bob Muller is just going to do his job, period. That's who he is.

CORDERO: But, also, Chris Wray is President Trump's nominee for FBI director. I mean he now is there. He is on a 10-year term. And the other individual that the president has been attacking, Mr. Strzok and the other FBI employees, those were career FBI employees who are now under an internal inquiry.

STODDARD: Look, none of this really makes a lot of sense if you look at it. We know that James Comey, when he was director of the FBI, ruined his reputation by stepping out on July 5th with a press conference about a case he wasn't supposed to talk about. Then a letter on October 11th, which Hillary Clinton to this day thinks sunk her campaign because he was so afraid of the pro-Trump forces in the FBI in New York that if Hillary had won, and they had leaked on him, he would have looked like he helped her become president. And so he came out and did something that was completely unprecedented because there was so much anti-Hillary sentiment within the FBI.

BORGER: So --

STODDARD: You can look at this five different ways. Comey was originally fired apparently by the Trump administration because they mishandled the Flynn investigation the other way.

BLITZER: All right, Gloria, I want to listen to what -- what the president also said about -- once again saying, as he always says, no evidence of any collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians during the campaign. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There is absolutely no collusion. That has been proven. When you look at the committees, whether it's the Senate or the House, everybody walk -- my worst enemies, they walk out, they say, there is no collusion, but we'll continue to look. It should have never been this way where they spent all these millions of dollars. So now even the Democrats admit, there's no collusion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Now, I interviewed Senator Ron Wyden of the Senate Intelligence Committee last night and I asked him this. Listen to this exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Have you seen evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia?

SEN. RON WYDEN (D), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: I think when you look at Donald Trump Jr. and what is on the record, I think there was clearly an intent to collude.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: An intent to collude. All right, so, go ahead.

BORGER: I think that the investigations have to finish. This president believes that the FBI, the Mueller investigation, is out to get him and is out to get his campaign or maybe his family and that there's no there there.

He tells that to everybody. And I think that the congressional committees, to be fair to him, Dianne Feinstein came out and I believe she may have said it to you, that there was no evidence of collusion. That was maybe a month --

BLITZER: A few months ago now.

BORGER: Yes, it was a while ago. And they're continuing their investigations.

What we haven't heard from the president is anything about how important it is to get to the bottom of the Russians trying to influence American elections, period. And that is something that he is not talking about because it is all now about him. And that's a problem I believe for national security, that this president's not concerned about it.

BLITZER: Yes, (INAUDIBLE) "The Post" piece said yesterday --

BORGER: Exactly, "The Post" piece today --

BLITZER: They said the intelligence analyst --

BORGER: Right.

BLITZER: Who come in and brief him, they don't even want to talk about it because it so irritates him to even hear about this notion that Russia interfered.

BORGER: Right, because he takes it all as personal that they're trying to delegitimize his election.

BLITZER: All right, we've got to go, but we're going to continue, obviously, to assess what's going on.

Guys, thanks very, very much.

Just ahead, six senators in question right now as Republicans finalize their tax bill. They can make no more changes. Do they have the votes? We're going live to Capitol Hill.

Stay with us.

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