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Hala Gorani Tonight
: Obama: "Worst Mistake" Lack Of Planning In Libya; Taliban Advance In Helmand Province; Trump Back On Campaign Trail After Laying Low; New Ad: Clinton "Tough Enough To Stop Trump"; Brazil Lawmakers Consider Rousseff's Impeachment; Source: Abrini Revealed Target To Interrogators; UK Survey of Muslim Attitudes; Reactions Continue to Grow over Anti-LGBT Laws
Aired April 11, 2016 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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[15:00:33] HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Hala Gorani. We are live at CNN London. Thanks for being with us on this
Monday evening. This is THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.
Well, we begin with a frank admission by the U.S. president, Barack Obama, after seven years in office. He is revealing what he believes is his
single biggest mistake. It's a failure that helped create a failed state in Libya, a country that has become a safe haven for terrorist groups.
Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Worst mistake?
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Probably failing to plan for the day after what I think was the right thing to do in
intervening in Libya.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: That was President Obama. Several important points though. Mr. Obama does not regret taking part in the coalition that toppled the Libyan
dictator, Moammar Gadhafi in 2011. It is the aftermath he says that troubles him.
A recent article in the "Atlantic" magazine says Mr. Obama views Libya now as a mess. In other words, not fit for public consumption. Let's get more
from CNN's Suzanne Malveaux live in Washington.
First, who does -- because in the "Atlantic," he sort of pointed the finger of blame at the European leaders, but who is he blaming now for the lack of
planning post-Gadhafi in Libya?
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hala, it's very important they are being very cautious, very careful in terms of how they answer that
question. I put that question to Josh Earnest, the press secretary on a couple of occasions this afternoon to really kind of push them on this.
And you're absolutely right. In the "Atlantic," they talk about French President Nicholas Sarkozy as well as the British Prime Minister, David
Cameron as two people that the allies they were disappointed in, in terms of the aftermath, the really robust response that they thought following
the immediate intervention.
We also read as well that the team, the national security team was divided on this. You had the vice president, Joe Biden as well as former -- on one
side cautioning against getting involved, but former secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, pushing for more of a robust response to this.
So there is a lot of back and forth internally as well as with the U.S.'s allies from the U.N. mandate following that. But Josh Earnest says that
this is something that was a coalition effort wide, and that this is something that everybody, all the players should take some credit and some
blame. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I do think that the point that the president was making is not that our -- that any specific ally of the
United States had utterly failed to follow through on a specific commitment that they had made. But rather that the United States and our broader
coalition had not succeeded in mobilizing the necessary resources to bring about the scenario that we would have eventually liked to see.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: And Hala, he also mentioned as well the fact that you take us back in time, what was going on the ground in Libya, that you had these
massive protests that were happening here.
You had Gadhafi who was threatening to kill civilians like rats and that potentially this could have been a blood bath. They mentioned all those
things weighing in on this decision to go in. They defended the decision to go in.
But again saying -- acknowledging that this is not the outcome that they had hope, and certainly there is a lot of work that needs to be done from
this administration as well as the allies that the U.S. was counting on -- Hala.
GORANI: And I want -- one has to wonder what happened in Libya, did that have an impact on any of his other foreign policy decisions, namely Syria
as one example that springs to mind here?
MALVEAUX: That's absolutely right because Josh Earnest was saying, look, let's take the example of Syria. Let's paint the picture, if you will, the
president has gotten a lot of criticism about not striking out against the Assad regime after it was shown that Assad did in fact cross the red line
that was outlined by President Obama using chemical weapons against his own people.
He did not. He decided ultimately that the U.S. would not do that. He says potentially that could be a much worse case scenario on the ground in
Syria.
[15:05:03]And definitely bogged down the United States if it had gotten involved in more of a robust way. But as we know, the situation in Syria
certainly, by far, a disaster there as well, as ISIS has filled that power vacuum inside of that country -- Hala.
GORANI: It's generating a lot of discussion today once again. Suzanne Malveaux at the White House. Thanks very much.
Now from what President Obama calls his biggest failure in office to what his critics call another failure, the U.S. military campaign in
Afghanistan. Most American and NATO troops left at the end of 2014 and the Taliban went on the offensive just months later.
The latest example of Taliban carnage happened today. A suicide bomber hitting a bus of Afghan Army recruits in (inaudible) Province near
Jalalabad, 12 were killed. Dozens of others injured. This is the aftermath. You see the charred bus there.
Taliban called the recruits puppet soldiers. Attacks like that are sure to be noticed in Helmand Province where the Taliban now controls at least five
full districts. In this exclusive report, CNN's Nick Paton Walsh tells us why the Taliban are gaining so much ground.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You know a war is going badly when your enemy is right in front of you. This
white flag is the Taliban's. They really are that close to these Afghans defending one of the last government hold outs in Helmand Province.
It used to be NATO that shot from these positions near the vulnerable city of Lashkar Gah. Hundreds of Americans and Britons died for Helmand, many
in the town of Sangin (ph) where these pictures show the Afghan Army recently in heavy clashes.
But now, Afghanistan is quite quickly watching Helmand fall. The Taliban are winning partly because of men like these. This is a rare window into
the Afghan government's worst nightmare.
Solders from the Afghan Army who America spent billions training, who say they have defected and joined the Taliban. This man never dreamed they
would change sides.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I did 18 months of army training and took an oath to serve this country, but the situation changed. The
army let us down. So we had to come to the Taliban. They treat us like guests.
WALSH: They carry their old uniforms, ids and bank cards used to get their old army wages. They fought in violent Sangin where these pictures were
more recently filmed. Yet now they have used their training and experience to train the Taliban.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I decided to leave the army when my dead and injured comrades lay in our base, but nobody took them to the
hospital. My army training is very useful now as I am now training Taliban fighters with the same knowledge.
WALSH: Men who've seen the tide turn and voted with their feet.
(on camera): Helmand, it is undisputable heartland of the south that NATO fought so hard to push the Taliban back. Here in Kabul, you can talk to
many officials who say its capital, Lashkar Gah, could fall at any day really. It gives you a sense of how much on the offense the Taliban are
and what could happen in the summer fighting season ahead.
(voice-over): This is a center of Lashkar Gah, the key town in the Taliban's sights. Tense, yet-teaming. Some visit briefly from areas the
Taliban now control.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It is a bit too soon to say whether people are happy with the Taliban. The bazaar is now full of
people while it used to be empty. That was because the security was bad and some people avoided the government's forces.
WALSH: Others fled to its outskirts from the fighting at flash points like Sangin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): My worst memory is how a wedding party was hit by a mortar killing a large number of women and children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The police left after the fighting intensified and told me to move to vacant corner of the village. But the
bullets and rockets followed killing ten people so I fled here.
WALSH: Just over a year since NATO stopped fighting and here the Taliban's white flags are closer than ever.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Nick Paton Walsh joins me now live from Kabul. What are authorities at the highest level of Kabul's government saying about the
Afghan Army's ability to take back some of this territory and stop its fighters from defecting to the Taliban?
WALSH: There is an exceptions they have had serious problems recently. In fact, U.S. officials accept that two thirds of the Afghan Army's personnel
losses have been down to desertion, people simply not turning up to work.
But they are confident, they reject the notion that Lashkar Gah is that vulnerable. That's U.S. and Afghan officials. In fact, the acting defense
minister, when we spoke to him, had this to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[15:10:07]WALSH: People can see the Taliban's flag from the outskirts of Lashkar Gah. People say to me so regularly, it could fall any day.
MOHAMMED MASOOM STANEKZAI, AFGHAN ACTING DEFENSE MINISTER: It will not fall.
WALSH: At all?
STANEKZAI: At all.
WALSH: If it does, would you resign, if it did?
STANEKZAI: It will not fall. If it fall, there is no doubt I will resign, but it will not fall.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALSH: We heard similar optimism really as the draw down started here by NATO. U.S. and NATO officials insisting the Afghan security forces were up
to the job. Last year, they had a staggering series of losses, 55,000 security personnel killed in just one year alone.
That's more than NATO lost in their decade long campaign here. All eyes are on Helmand at this stage, where the Taliban emboldened under a new
radical leader, closer to al Qaeda than they have been for quite some time.
And taken more territory than they've seen even by the U.S. government's own assessment since 2001 where they look like they have momentum. And
Afghan security forces despite message of positivity here from officials we here in Kabul have really been struggling -- Hala.
GORANI: So it's fair to ask, this American invasion, intervention, occupation, training of Afghan forces, in the end, what did it achieve?
WALSH: It's hard to know really how you can answer that. It surely made many American contractors very rich and some Afghan officials and business
men as well. A lot of money has been spent here. Some of which U.S. government inspectors point out erroneously.
There has been a bid to try and improve lives of ordinary Afghans here. There's been suggestions of life expectancy and health has improved. There
has been a lot of money invested.
The city itself in Kabul has been radically transformed. But around the country, yes, we are seeing al Qaeda closer to the Taliban than they have
been for a while.
Suggestions maybe they are getting quite a good foothold here again. And also the Taliban on their front foot again. I think the concern really is
exactly where do the west stand in terms of their achievements here and how can they justify further investment and involvement?
It seems unlikely at this stage when you believe U.S. and NATO have spent what they can here in blood and treasure. It's down to Afghan to find
their way forward. It seems at this stage, the Taliban are on their front foot -- Hala.
GORANI: All right, Nick Paton Walsh live in Kabul with that exclusive report. Thanks very much.
You know what that music means, U.S. politics. The election process is rigged and crooked. That is the message from Republican presidential
frontrunner, Donald Trump after losing yet another primary contest to Ted Cruz.
Trump is lashing out as he returns to the campaign trail even sending a warning to his own party. Phil Mattingly has our story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We've got a corrupt system. It's not right. We're supposed to be a democracy.
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Donald Trump back on the campaign trail in New York after spending four days laying low.
TRUMP: We've got to have a system where voting means something. Doesn't it have to mean something?
MATTINGLY: Criticizing the delegate system after a string of losses in state battles dominated by Ted Cruz's campaign organization and issuing a
warning to the Republican National Committee.
TRUMP: You are going to have a big problem because there are people who don't like what's going on.
MATTINGLY: Trump's top adviser, Paul Manafort echoing his boss's concerns alleging that the Cruz campaign is threatening Trump's delegates.
PAUL MANAFORT, TRUMP CONVENTION MANAGER: You go to these conventions and you see the Gustapo tactics. We are going to be filing several protests
because the reality is they are not playing by the rules.
MATTINGLY: The Cruz campaign calls it sour grapes writing in a statement, quote, "It's no surprise that Trump's team will lash out with falsehoods
when facing a loss to distract from their failure."
Trump taking to social media to express his frustration with the delegate fight. Tweeting "The people of Colorado had their vote taken away from
them by phony politicians. Biggest story in politics. This will not be allowed."
This back and forth coming just a day after Cruz went after Trump over electability while courting top donors in Las Vegas.
SENATOR TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If Donald is the nominee, poll after poll after poll shows him losing by double digits. We are
looking at a bloodbath of Walter Mondale proportions.
MATTINGLY: These attacks coming as Trump tries out a new strategy, playing it safe. The Republican frontrunner was absent from the Sunday talk shows
yesterday for the first time in four months.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Even as Trump complains of a rigged system, he revealed that two of his own children won't get to vote for him in New York because they did
not follow the rules. Ivanka and Eric Trump, both campaign surrogates for their father, failed to register in time for next week's primary in their
home state of New York.
[15:15:04]Let's get more now on the race from Chris Frates live in Rochester, New York. Trump is complaining about the system. Let's look at
the latest poll.
For New York, the important primary coming up, Trump is very much ahead, 54 percent to Kasich's 22 percent and Cruz at 15 percent among likely
Republican voters. In that sense, at least the Trump campaign should be feeling quite confident.
CHRIS FRATES, CNN INVESTIGATIONS CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Hala. They are feeling very confident and he has a chance here to take all 95
delegates at stake. That's going to be huge for him if he can get that winner take all.
Because remember, he is still about 500 delegates short of that magic 1,237 number and Ted Cruz has really been on a bit of a winning streak. He has
been winning the last four out of four contests.
Big wins you might remember in Wisconsin last week and also on Saturday he had a great delegate game and he won 34 of the 34 delegates in Colorado.
That had the Trump people crying foul saying that he was using Gestapo tactics to threaten and cajole delegates into supporting him.
The Cruz folks saying that's ridiculous. It's just sour grapes from the Trump campaign and that Donald Trump is throwing yet another temper tantrum
because he didn't get his way.
But Trump is really ahead here in New York. You are seeing that because he is not making a lot of noise out there on the campaign trail. He is low
key as he is well, well ahead here -- Hala.
GORANI: I guess, maybe his strategy is don't say anything. You are way ahead. Let's talk about Hillary Clinton here. Because for the first time
ever, just letting our viewers also know that this is significant -- she is naming Trump in one of her campaign adds. I want to play some of it for
our viewers and then I'll get back to you, Chris.
(VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: All right, so it's interesting here instead of focusing on Bernie Sanders, on the nomination race, she is for the first time taking aim at
Donald Trump. What's the strategy here?
FRATES: A couple of things here, Hala. I mean, first of all, a new poll out just a few minutes ago showing Hillary Clinton up 51 percent to 39
percent. She also has a comfortable lead here in New York, can start to pay attention to taking on the Republicans.
And she's doing that in Donald Trump's home state. Remember, New Yorkers are quite familiar with Donald Trump. He has been a tabloid fixture for
the last 30 or 40 years and going after him really riles up her Democratic base.
They are pro-choice. Donald Trump flip-flopping on abortion as part of his very bad week last week. There are also generally minorities and
immigrants. She does very well with them.
Trump's anti-immigrant status also not popular and certainly his message to ban Muslims from coming into the Statue of Liberty's home harbor doesn't
play well with the Democratic base either, Hala.
So she is able to do a couple things with one ad. She is able to get Democratic voters excited for her and really court those constituencies who
helped make her the frontrunner, largely minorities while also starting to take on the presumptive frontrunner, Donald Trump.
So that ad works for her in a couple of different ways, and it's in a place where Donald Trump is very, very familiar to all the voters out there --
Hala.
GORANI: All right, interesting, Chris Frates in Rochester, New York. Thanks very much.
Now speaking of politics, it's a big week on CNN. For the next three nights, Anderson Cooper will host town halls with each of the Republican
candidates. And here's an added extra for all of you, their families will join the candidates.
On Monday, John Kasich is up followed by Donald Trump on Tuesday. Ted Cruz on Wednesday. And on Thursday, don't miss the Democratic presidential
debate as Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders face off live from New York. It all happens this week at 9:00 p.m. Eastern Time, 2:00 a.m. in London.
Something for everyone every day of the week.
Still to come tonight, the future of Brazil's president not looking so rosy. Delmar Rouseff is being decided on as we speak. We are live in
Brazil as the country waits on its key impeachment votes.
And a list of potential terror targets. What Mohamad Abrini, the man in the hat, is telling interrogators? All that and much more when we come
back.
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[15:21:48]
GORANI: In Brazil, lawmakers are taking the first steps toward possibly impeaching their president, Delmar Roussef. A congressional committee is
meeting right now in the capital, Brasilia, ahead of the key vote.
They are debating whether there are constitutional grounds to move forward with the impeachment process. Rousseff is being accused of breaking budget
laws to hide a deficit perhaps to help her re-election bid.
Brazilians have been split over this whole thing and authorities there are bracing for potential riots. There have been huge demonstrations already.
Shasta Darlington is in Rio de Janeiro with more. So when will we hear -- when is the result of this process here that will determine whether or not
there are grounds to impeach Rousseff?
SHASTA DARLINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hala, the debate is going on right now. Voting should start shortly and this really could be the first step
towards launching that impeachment process. Political analysts belief that this 65-member committee will indeed recommend launching this impeachment
trial.
The recommendation itself is not binding, but it will be a key test for which way lawmakers are leaning ahead of a vote in the full floor of
Congress next Sunday. That's when the opposition would need two thirds of votes to launch that impeachment trial, send it off to Senate.
But political tensions as you mentioned are already running very high. Police already set up this one kilometer long fence two meters high on the
lawn in front of Congress to separate anti-government protesters from pro- government demonstrations.
The problem there, of course, is you have antigovernment protesters who blame the president for a recession for this massive corruption scandal
that has engulfed many people in her party although she herself hasn't been implicated.
Then you have the guys on the other side who are saying this is a coup d'etat. You are trying to remove a democratically elected president on
this technicality for accounting errors when so many politicians have been charged with corruption and money laundering including many of those on the
impeachment committee right debating why she should go.
So this is not something that's going to be solved quickly or easily. Even if they do approve it or if they shelf it we're going to see protests for
days and weeks to come -- Hala.
GORANI: All right, with a lot going on in Brazil these days, political chaos as well. Thanks very much. Shasta is in Rio.
Now the Euro 2016 football championships that's in France over the summer. We are talking weeks and weeks and millions and millions of people. They
could have been the next target of the terror cell behind the Paris and Brussels attack.
That is the claim being made to investigators and this they are trying to verify. A source close to the investigation tells CNN that Mohamad Abrini
revealed that target during interrogation.
Abrini is now known as the man in the hat at Brussels airport. The source mentioned other details of the investigation as well.
Kellie Morgan joins me from Brussels with more. So Kellie, he is telling investigators, yes, I was the man in the hat and we had to accelerate our
plan.
We hit Brussels because -- because our target was actually France during the Euro championships this summer. Why is he saying they struck Brussels
earlier and not France as planned?
[15:25:05]KELLIE MORGAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They are saying because they feared police were closing in on them after the arrest of Paris terror
suspect, Salah Abdeslam on the 18th of March. They felt that it was too risky to travel.
Clearly there was notes on that computer found by police -- recovered from outside the Schaerbeek apartment where -- which was used by the Brussels
attackers to make their bombs. That computer was owned by the airport suicide bomber, Ibrahim (inaudible).
Now on that computer it mentioned two targets in Paris. One was the France business district and also a Catholic association in Paris.
And there were notes that these men needed to get a hurry on because police were basically going to arrest them, they feared capture so they forward.
They plot in Brussels and the carnage unfolded here instead -- Hala.
GORANI: Now is it the belief of the investigators that with the arrest of Abrini, the other men believed to have happened in the Metro attack that
essentially this one cell that operated both in Paris and Brussels, that it has been pretty much dismantled or do they fear that other members of this
one cell that had plans to attack Euro 2016 -- that other members are still out there?
MORGAN: Yes, they absolutely believe there are still other members out there. If we remember initially, the authorities here in Brussels were
looking for eight suspects in connection to the Brussels blast. Well, we know that they have caught six of them on Friday, six alleged suspects.
Two of them being men who have links to Salah Abdeslam, the Paris terror suspect who is also in Belgian custody. But we also know that this cell
that is connected to both Paris and Brussels -- we've heard the Paris suspects in the past brag that they came into Europe with 90 other ISIS
operatives.
So we are far from disentangling this web of terror. Police are being very vigilant in terms of their investigations trying to glean everything they
can from the men that they have in custody to find out more about what they had planned.
And interestingly one of the other things that was found on that computer recovered from that Schaerbeek apartment or outside it were some audio
files. And on it a telephone call or telephone calls with one of the suicide bomber brothers and a man that police believe was an ISIS operative
in Syria.
So clearly there is some ISIS direction here and this terror cell has its tentacles not just in Belgium, possibly in other parts of Europe as well
because we have seen arrests in Germany and Netherlands and other parts of Europe as well --Hala.
GORANI: All right, Kellie Morgan, thanks very much, in Brussels.
Coming up, Bruce Springsteen and Brian Adams cancel concerts over so-called religious freedom laws. We'll explain why these laws are a hot button
issue in the United States.
And a new survey shows controversial views of a significant number of British-Muslims. We'll bring you those later in the show. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:30:35]
GORANI: A look at our top stories, U.S. President Barack Obama says his biggest mistake in office so far is not planning for the aftermath of the
2011 toppling of Libyan leader Gadhafi.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: But he says he does not regret intervening in the conflict in the first place. Rival militia's moved in to fill the power of vacuum after
Gadhafi's fall creating a state of chaos.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Donald Trump says the U.S. election process is rigged and crooked.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: The Republican Presidential front-runner is back on the campaign trail after another primary loss to rival Ted Cruz. Trump's campaign is
accusing Cruz of using Gestapo tactics to secure delegates. While Cruz supporters say Trump sour grapes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: In Brazil, a congressional panel is deciding whether to launch an impeachment trial against the President Dilma Roussef.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Committee members are set to vote on the measure soon. Now if they pass it the lower house of parliament would then vote. It's the first major
official step toward unseating here. Ms. Roussef is being accused of breaking budget laws.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: The British Prime Minister, David Cameron has defended his tax affairs in front of parliament. He's had quite a rough day it has to be
said.
Mr. Cameron published a summary of his taxes over the weekend because he was under pressure after revelations in the Panama Papers over his father's
offshore investment funds.
Nina dos Santos has more on today's robust debate.
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN MONEY EUROPE EDITOR: Facing accusations of being less clear than he could have been about his financial affairs David Cameron
used parliaments first meeting since the Easter recess to set the record straight on his own taxes and also to tighten the rules for those who don't
pay their fair dues.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Dealing with my own circumstances first yesterday I published all the information in my tax returns not just
for the last year but for the last six years. I've also given additional information about money inherited and given to me by my family so people
can see the sources of income that I have.
SANTOS: As the Prime Minister delivered his address the Chancellor published his own tax return showing tens of thousands earned from renting
out his house as well as large dividends earned from his family firm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANTOS: And the Chancellor chose to publish his tax returns after the Prime Minister encouraged him to do so. And when the Prime Minister published his
own documents they also revealed that he'd been gifted hundreds of thousands of dollars by his parents in a move often used across the U.K. to
avoid paying inheritance tax. And that left the party unable to shake the image of being one of privilege.
JEREMY CORBYN, LEADER OF BRITISH OPPOSITION LABOUR PARTY: Ordinary people in the country simply won't stand for this anymore. They want real justice.
They want the wealthy to pay their share of tax like they pay when they work hard all the time.
DENNIS SKINNER, MEMBER OF BRITISH PARLIAMENT, LABOUR PARTY: This man has done more to divide this nation than anybody else. He's looked after his
own pocket and I still refer to him as dodgy Dave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANTOS: Well, it's clear David Cameron hasn't been accused of anything other than legitimate tax planning to mitigate what he owes. Having his
finances scrutinized to such an extent will be embarrassing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANTOS: Especially as it comes just a month ahead of a major anticorruption summit he is hosting in London. Overall the talk was tough, and at times,
taxing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANTOS: Nina dos Santos, CNN Money, London.
GORANI: Now rock stars are making their voices heard by cancelling concerts in increasing occurrence in the U.S. and it is all driven by politics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: But singer song writer Bryan Adams won't be running to fans in Mississippi. He canceled his concert to protest the state's divisive
religious freedom law that opponents call antigay. He is following in the footsteps of Bruce Springsteen, who cancelled a concert in North Carolina
because of a different law affecting the LGBT community.
Springsteen said "some things are more important than a rock show. And this fight against prejudice and bigotry which is happening as I write is one of
them" and he said "I am not performing in North Carolina."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Let's look at both sides of these so called religious freedom laws. Proponents say the laws are designed to protect the religious rights of
people who have deeply held convictions. But opponents say the laws legitimize and legalize blatant discrimination particularly against
lesbian, gay and transgender people.
[15:35:13]
GORANI: Polo Sandoval explains both arguments in Mississippi.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jackie Buchannan is a second generation seamstress in Mississippi who stands by her Christian beliefs. She says
that faith is the foundation of her business.
JACKQUIN BUCHANAN, MISSISSIPPI SEAMSTRESS: This is the time of year when the weddings occur.
SANDOVAL: Buchannan says the doors to her shop are open to anyone. But dressing a bride for a same-sex marriage goes against her Christian values.
Now she won't have to.
BUCHANAN: I would probably decline on servicing them because I believe a marriage was -- the marriage is instituted by god between a man and a
woman. And that is my belief.
SANDOVAL: From private business owners like Buchanan to public employees who issue marriage licenses, the law will allow them to refuse a customer
if it means servicing a same-sex wedding. Some legal experts are warning the law's reach could extend far beyond.
PAGE PATE, ATTORNEY: Also it will allow discrimination based on couples who are not married simply because there is one recognition in this Mississippi
law that it's a I guess respectable or legitimate religious belief that sex only occurs within the confines of marriage.
SANDOVAL: Back in the heart of the bible belt Jackson bartender Mark Leopold wonders why the law was needed in the first place.
MARK LEOPOLD, JACKSON MISSISSIPPI RESIDENT: They are worried about maintaining religious freedom in a state that ranks among the most devoutly
religious states in the country. Protection from who?
SANDOVAL: So far, the law's effects have been less religious than they are economic. Only days after the governor Phil Bryant signed it into law
Tuesday the Mississippi Tourism Association reported people are cancelling or postponing trips to Mississippi due to the national media reporting on
this new law.
Everyone's welcome here is the name of the new campaign launched by the state's restaurant and hospitality association in response to controversy.
With this threat of an economic fallout some businesses here in Jackson's trendy (inaudible) neighborhood are taking some steps of their own making
it very clear that all customers are welcome.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's bills like this that are killing our economy. It's one reason why we're the poorest.
SANDOVAL: (Knol Aust and Dwayne Smith) were among the first gay couples to marry in Mississippi after the Supreme Court's ruling legalizing same-sex
marriage last year. For them the new law is precisely why they'll stay in Mississippi, to fight it.
KNOL AUST, LAW OPPONENT: I have family here. I have my home here. I have friends here. And I worked hard for that. I'm not leaving my home, my
family, and my friends because some men in the capital think that I'm a second class citizen. I'm committed to fighting it and staying here to
fight it.
SANDOVAL: Polo Sandoval, CNN, Jackson, MISSISSIPPI.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance against Defamation, or GLAD obviously opposes any (inaudible) anti LGBT.
Sarah Kate Elis is the CEO and President of GLAAD and she joins me know live from Nashville. Thanks for being with us.
First of all, your reaction to Bruce Springsteen, the likes of Bruce Springsteen, Bryan Adams, some corporations saying they want to invest
money in some of these states that are passing these laws that are seen as anti LGBT? What is your reaction to that?
SARAH ELIS, CEO & PRESIDENT GLAAD: I'm happy to see the entertainment industry standing up for equality and acceptance for the LGBT community.
You know these laws are actually - they're laws to discriminate and they're laws to hate and they're not about religious freedom they're about hate and
discrimination.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Now, some of you heard -- I think maybe you heard from Polo Sandoval's report, that lady who makes wedding dresses, and she said look,
it's just my religious belief that I don't think you know two people of the same sex should get married it's my right not to then cater to them as a
business.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: So what would GLAAD's response be to that?
ELIS: If you are a public business, then you have to serve all of the public, you can't pick and choose who you're serving based on your
religious believes. It's as simple as that.
GORANI: Yes, and so what would the position of GLAAD be on trying to then get these laws to either be struck off the books or reversed somehow? What
strategy would you favor?
ELIS: Well, I think you see a strategy that's being played out right now, which is around Georgia when there was legislation being pushed through
there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELIS: A lot of the entertainment industry with our help, coalesced around that and said that they are either going to pull their business or not
going to go there to shoot. And that's the Hollywood of the south here in America.
And now you are seeing Bruce Springsteen cancel, Bryan Adams cancel. You're seeing companies, PayPal pulled an expansion model. So there's real
economic reality to this and fallout from this.
[15:40:08]
ELIS: People, companies -- it's not reflective of people's and companies' core values. And so what is happening is you are seeing them pull out and
go do business in places that allow people to live the life that they love and that allow for equality.
GORANI: Sure, go ahead. No I was looking at the list here just as you were mentioning PayPal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: There are other corporations that have come out they've condemned sort of the law, they've spoken in favor of opposing discrimination but
they haven't really gone that further step of pulling investment for instance. Nissan. You have other energy companies. My question is do you
think that now corporations, celebrities, entertainment industry, are they now sort of the ones setting the agenda rather than government? I mean, do
you think that that's kind of now the way to attack laws that you view as anti-LBGT?
ELIS: Well, I think we have a long history of that, we're a capitalist society. But I do think, you know, I'm here in Nashville today because we
are calling on the country music artists and record labels to stand up. And we're hoping that we'll start hearing from them. There are some bills
passing through Tennessee now that are dangerous and discriminatory. And we're really counting on music row to stand up and talk about the hate and
discrimination that these bills will perpetuate.
GORANI: And Sarah, I just want to show our viewers around the world who may not have been following the story as closely as people inside the United
States have just a map -- non-exhaustive of states that have passed some of these laws.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: North Carolina has legally mandated that people use the bathroom assigned to the gender on their birth certificate. Another example is
Tennessee where you mentioned Tennessee considering allowing therapists to invoke religious beliefs to refuse to treat lesbian and gay people. And
then you have Georgia and South Dakota where governors have vetoed the so- called religious freedom measures. You spoke of the country music industry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Have you gotten any positive response from any of the major entertainers there when you asked them to do the same thing that Bruce
Springsteen or Bryan Adams have done?
ELIS: Well, we're starting to see them speak out. They're just starting to speak out. You know Reba McIntyre spoke out yesterday year. We're seeing
Carrie underwood has spoken out in the past. So we're starting to see it bubble up and we're hoping that it's going to build quite a bit of momentum
over the next few days. These next few weeks are critical with these bills. So we're starting to see the drum beat now.
GORANI: All right, we'll see if it that translates into anything concrete like canceled shows or anything like that. Sarah Kate Elis, the President
of GLAAD, thanks very much for joining us, we really appreciate your time this evening.
ELIS: Thank you, thanks for having me.
GORANI: This is the "The World Right Now." Do British Muslims have a problem with integration?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: There is a headline grabbing survey out there in the U.S. today. We're going to discuss it with two very different voices coming up next.
We'll be right back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:45:15]
GORANI: All right, a new survey reveals more than half of British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: This is a survey that was conducted by a polling agency called ICM for channel 4 T.V. here in the U.K.
According to it, nearly one in four say they would support areas of Britain with strict Islamic Sharia law introduced instead of British law. But
Muslims who took part in the survey were more likely than the general population to talk people out of supporting terrorism and to report them to
the police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Now the methodology is interesting here. It is important to note that ICM polled only Muslims living in areas with high Muslim population.
This is standard practice in the U.K. But that means it only covers about half of British Muslims, not 100%.
Let's talk about this with our two guests.
Khalid Mahmood is a member of the British Labour Party. And Steven Woolfe of the U.K. Independence Party, UKIP, joins us from Strasburg, France, he's
a member of the European parliament there. Thanks to both of you for being with us.
All right. I just want to make sure first, Steven, if you -- I just want to make sure Khalid Mahmood can hear you so I'm going to ask you the first
question. You read the results of this survey. What was your reaction to some of the headline grabbing numbers that I just read out?
STEVEN WOOLFE, SPOKESMAN FOR MIGRANT AFFAIRS, UK INDEPENDENT PARTY: My reaction was to those people that believe we should kind of somehow
prosecute homosexuals or that we should have Sharia law is that they are living not in the Britain that I know and not in the Britain that many of
the Muslim candidates that stood for UKIP in the general election or our candidates in the current election believe in. They believe in Britain, an
open society, that treats everybody equally, that believes women are equal to men. It doesn't matter what age, creed, or color you are. So the report
that Trevor Phillips is looking at is identifying a group of people who are outside of the values of Britain. And I think it's for all of us to accept
those results and look at those people and say come in. This is a fantastic country. You are living in it. You enjoy it and we want you to be part of
it.
GORANI: All right so would you say - Khalid Mahmood, could you please respond to that? Because some of the reaction to the survey that I read
inside the U.K. and our international viewers might not be aware, is they're seeing this as more proof that British Muslims can't integrate,
won't integrate. Is there truth to the that?
KHALID MAHMOOD, MEMBER OF BRITISH PARLIAMENT, LABOUR PARTY: Well, know they can't -- they can't integrate. The problem is most of the areas the survey
has been done are highly densely populated, huge amount of overcrowding, huge problem in school places. I got elected in 2001 and have had to deal
with both of those problems until today, still I'm dealing with issues of school spaces that are not available and overcrowding. A huge amount of
people actually in my constituency want going to grammar schools, Muslims from a background want to go to grammar schools, want to go to outer area
schools and they can't. And the problem with housing has been that they've been locked into this position where you've got at least --
GORANI: -- but the results are undeniable. You know 38% or 9% saying that women should always obey their husband. I mean some of these views are so
antiquated.
MAHMOOD: The problem with all of that is much of that site has been locked into the 80s because they have not been able to move out, they've not been
able to do anything else. Until the 90s we had funding by governments that was actually specifically targeted towards those communities to stay
internal rather than allow them to expand laterally.
GORANI: Steven Woolfe, basically what Mr. Mahmoud is saying is that this is a collective failure of the government of the society as a whole
integrating some of these Muslim British citizens?
WOOLFE: I have a great deal of respect for Khalid. I understand a great deal of his views. I was born as a mixed race person living in Moss side.
And the same sort of ideas of having lots of black people and mixed race people is the argument that we were in poverty and therefore we had these
negative views. I disagree. You've got lots of populations of white people that are living in poor areas on the eastern part of our region. I think
this is can't blame government necessarily on this. We've got blame the fact that we have an elite -- just one minute, Khalid, and I'm not blaming
yourself here.
I am blaming that there has been an argument of multiculturalism rather than multi-ethnicity that has ignored the fact that if you have segregation
in our country, if you have large scale migration without allowing ourselves to integrate in the way that my family did when we came in to our
country, then they are going to get these problems identified as Khalid has clearly set out where we do get lots of people together -
MAHMOUD: -- the problem is you didn't get the multiculturalism
WOOLFE: But ultimately there are other solutions. But the key point, that we have to send out, the message is no longer is this view acceptable. You
are in Britain, love Britain, love the people it.
GORANI: Steven, yes, go ahead Khalid.
MAHMOOD: The problem has been is all the funding has been targeted to individual communities to isolate them. And that's why they're not --
GORANI: How? Isolate them in what way?
[15:50:05]
MAHMOOD: Because in the '80s you had funding for the Muslim community, Pakistani, Kashmir, Bangladeshi community, for the Afro Caribbean
community, for the Hindu community, for the Sikh community and very little for the Christian working class community. And what that did was got people
together in a silo and just moved it up and kept them tied up in there. And that's why you've got some of those views of those people because they
haven't been allowed to move out and integrate into the wider society.
Where you have integration, is where people have been able because of their own financial circumstance to move out, you've got different results. So
part of that position has been making of the government. But also in the '80s when - (inaudible) all these people were preaching, we were
encouraging them through that because we gave them the freedom of speech.
GORANI: So Steven Woolfe, what is the solution here. Because and by the way the methodology needs to be looked at. We're talking about high Muslim
concentration areas, some of them are lower income. The very well integrated British Muslims are not being polled here at all. But if you
look at some of these pockets what is the solution according to you Steven Woolfe?
WOOLFE: Well, firstly I would like to say it's often been an argument used by -- and I'm afraid I'll use the phrase the left in this country to attack
the methodology of reports. This type of report has been used extensively since Trevor Phillips and the organization of the Equality Commission for
years.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOOLFE: And I think we have to listen to what it actually says. So therefore, we need to address it. And the way to address it first of all is
slow down the numbers of people coming into the country so we can look at exactly the problems that Khalid has mentioned; looking at housing, looking
at schools so we know the numbers of people here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WOOLFE: Secondly we have to really attack the levels of education and promote British values, the historical context of why we have democracy
here, the historical concepts of how the people fought to give ourselves equality of education, religion and why women were so important in order to
get the vote and why we should be treating that respectfully.
MAHMOOD: But it's Trevor Phillips -
WOOLFE: That is the key point to come into that -
MAHMOOD: But it's Trevor Phillips -
GORANI: So I just want to get everyone in.
WOOLFE: And then finally bringing people together.
GORANI: And Khalid.
MAHMOOD: This Trevor Phillips like you said, ten years ago, that we were going to stop people settling next to (inaudible) to mosques, to synagogues
because what that does is create ghettos. It was Trevor who said that ten years ago and I think he's forgotten that element of it.
So I think what we need to do is have a wider society -
WOOLFE: That's true.
MAHMOOD - where we actually - you can get people to integrate. Where we failed in this country since the '80s and the early 70s is not allow people
to integrate. And that was the best way of moving this agenda forward.
GORANI: But let me ask you a question. What do you make of when Steven Wolfe says look, you can't use the argument I've not been integrated, I'm
lower income, I didn't have access to certain services or opportunities, and therefore it explains some of these views. Do you - how -- that's not
an excuse anymore.
MAHMOOD: No, there's no excuses. At the end of the day I do not accept any of these findings in the that those people are saying that, that is not
allowed as far as I'm concerned.
GORANI: No I know I'm not accusing you obviously I'm just saying -
MAHMOOD: But what has happened is that those young people in those overcrowded schools, in those overcrowded homes that they've lived in
they've not been able to expand that horizon, the views that they should have had of the society that they're part of. And that's been the biggest
problem. And so therefore they have been entrapped in that time zone essentially of the '80s where their parents, in some instances have come
over in the 70s with those views and those views haven't changed.
GORANI: Steven Woolfe, lastly I mean you talk about the methodology. I mean look, the methodology, we can - we're not here to debate it, but there are
- there is a large portion of British Muslims who were not consulted on this. But really even with this methodology, 83% of British Muslims, I'm
sorry, 86% of British Muslims say they feel strongly British. That is higher than the national average.
WOOLFE: Well, that's exactly the same sort of reaction I get when I had so many British Muslims actually representing UKIP in the general election,
who helped formulate our policy in terms of the way that we look at immigration.
What is great about this is the show, that there are people who recognize that our country is a fantastic equal open opportunity country that is
looking out to the global world. What they do -- are saying is that unfortunately, the pressures of housing, schools, roads, education, are
caused by a variety of issues which trap us in the same sort of council estates I grew up in in Manchester during the '80s and the '90s. But what
we are saying is we now all have to work together to make sure that this rising issue of antagonism to women and homosexuality, to the issues of
being anti-British in certain communities to support (inaudible) must stop. So we've got to stop multiculturalism, work on multi-ethnicity and bringing
our people together.
GORANI: OK, so different views here, I've got to leave it there, I wish we could go on for a much longer - Steven Woolfe, U.K. Member of the European
Parliament.
WOOLFE: Thank you Khalid.
GORANI: -- Khalid Mahmood, Labour M.P. here in London. Thanks to both of you for joining us for this fascinating discussion that we could be having
in many other European countries. We'll be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:56:10]
GORANI: Well, it was a shocking Sunday at the Master's.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Englishman Danny Willett won the golf's first major of the year. During Willett's improbable winning streak, his family was lighting up the
internet with some funny tweets.
DANNY WILLETT, 2016 MASTERS CHAMPION: There's a few pictures that could prove that yes, we all used to back in the day trying to save water. That
was it. One hot water bath and then as many people get in it as possible, try and get clean.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You also said, green makes you look fat. Refuse the jacket!
WILLETT: I can't really say too much on that. He is a little bit porky himself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Sarah, don't ever put us through this again Dan, I've aged 20 years.
WILLETT: That's my sister-in-law. No, it's just nice to know they are all pulling for you. I spoke to them a good over this last week. I'm very
privileged to have a fantastic group of family, you know, in-laws, friends, everyone around me to keep me down to earth, to keep me being the person
that I've worked hard to be regardless of if I play good golf or not. And they don't really care.
You know, they care that I -- I'm a good person and I keep doing the right things and keep working hard. And you know, any little bonuses along the
way, you know, within golf, is a bonus. So yes, I'm incredibly privileged to have them people around me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, this has been "The World Right Now" I'm Hala Gorani. Thanks to all of you for watching. "Quest Means Business" is next on CNN.
END
