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Hala Gorani Tonight
Cameron: "The Decision Must Be Accepted"; U.K. Grapples With Brexit Vote Fallout; S&P Downgrades U.K. Credit Rating; Corbyn Faces "Remain" Campaign Criticism; Brexit Vote Throws Labour Party Into Turmoil; European Leaders Hold Talks After Brexit Vote; Reports Of Rise In Racial Abuse After Referendum; Leave Accused Of Breaking Promises; Brexit Vote Throws U.K. Into Turmoil; Critics: Corbyn Ineffective In "Remain" Campaign; Vast Majority Of Hull Voted To Leave. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired June 27, 2016 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Hala Gorani. Live from London's Houses of Parliament. This is THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.
I am Hala Gorani live in the British capital where a major political drama is playing out as we speak. This country has of course voted to leave the
European Union, but no one seems to have a plan for what happens next. We have full coverage for you this hour.
Four days after the U.K.'s E.U. referendum and the fallout from its vote to pull out of the E.U. is continuing all over the globe. Let me walk you
through the latest developments. Volatility continues to rock the financial markets. The pound has taken another big hit, slumping to its
lowest level in more than 30 years.
Standard and Poor's has just downgraded Britain's top sovereign credit rating from a stellar AAA to AA. Stocks are taking a hit on this second
trading day since the referendum. Right now, we're seeing another triple- digit dive on the Dow following a deep selloff in European markets. We are down more than 250 points for the Dow Jones Industrial Average.
On the political front, it's not better. Upheaval is ripping Britain's political establishment. Questions over what to do next are mounting as
the two major political parties grapple with the issue of leadership and how to move forward.
Now British lawmakers were back in parliament today, asking their prime minister what the U.K. out of the E.U. will look like. David Cameron spent
his afternoon swatting back those questions. He plans to step down over the vote and his party says his successor will likely be in place by early
September.
Nevertheless, today Mr. Cameron urged his country to accept the results despite the challenges.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Mr. Speaker, the British people have voted to leave the European Union. It was not the result that I
wanted nor the outcome that I believe is best for the country I love, but there can be no doubt about the result.
Of course, I don't take back what I said about the risks. It is going to be difficult. We've already seen there are going to be adjustments within
our economy. Complex constitutional issues and challenging new negotiation to undertake with Europe.
But I am clear and the cabinet agreed this morning that the decision must be accepted and the process of implementing the decision in the best
possible way must now begin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Let's bring in CNN political contributor, Robin Oakley, and CNN Money editor-at-large, Richard Quest, who are with me outside the Houses of
Parliament here. Robin, let me start with you.
Here we have a prime minister about to step down. Not exactly sure who is the next leader of the Tory Party will be. The leader of the opposition
Labour Party is facing an internal revolt. We don't know what's happening there. This is complete chaos.
ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: This is complete chaos, yes. Let's start with the labor party leadership, Jeremy Corbyn tonight meeting
with his MPs. He's lost half his shadow cabinet, the main people working with him on the front bench, supposed to be attacking the conservative
government.
Half of them have walked out. Several of them because they think he didn't do enough for the "remain" campaign to which the Labour Party was committed
in the referendum. Many others, because they simply feel he is not up to the job.
They have thought they got two or three years for him to try himself out in the job. Now they fear an early snap election, in which the Labour Party,
they suggest, on the Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, could be decimated.
He's facing a vote of no confidence among his MPs, but he says he will fight on and standing again for the leadership and his party activist in
the country who have the final say are very much behind him.
So what will happen then? You have the Labour leader totally disowned by his party in parliament, but carrying on as the leader, which would
probably mean a split in the Labour Party.
GORANI: And we'll talk about the conservatives in a moment. Richard, let's talk about the Standard and Poor's rating downgrade. It's one notch.
It's two notches.
RICHARD QUEST, CNN MONEY EDITOR-AT-LARGE: Yes, and Fitch and Moody's had already downgraded the United Kingdom during the sovereign debt crisis.
Now the S&P -- really, the reasons why, S&P said it just can't guarantee the security of the U.K.
[15:05:04]It's worried about obviously the whole Brexit process. But to be -- I mean, it's a kick in the groin, two days -- normally it takes a little
longer for a ratings agency to move.
GORANI: But everything seems to have happened so fast.
QUEST: And the negative watch continues. Take a look at the Dow Jones. I mean, the pound was down in 3 percent today --
GORANI: Almost 300 points lower now.
QUEST: At 300 points on the Dow, frankly, no obvious reason.
GORANI: But I'll tell you, there's something to be happy about. England just scored, I'm told, against Iceland. Just a little aside.
QUEST: Something for national morale.
GORANI: As we look at these Dow Jones numbers and the pound that went 31.
QUEST: I mean, people are sort of saying, the humiliation can't get much worse other than losing tonight, which would be the coup d'etat of a really
bad week. Each day there's going to be another development, a drip, drip. Easy Jet down 18 to 20 percent. IAG down 20 percent on Friday. Day after
day, we're going to see little bits of the economy brutalized, to use that horrible phrase.
GORANI: Robin, I want to ask you about Merkel and Hollande, and other big European leaders, they're saying to Britain, we don't have time to waste
here. We don't want this uncertainty hanging over us, you're the ones who decided to leave, get on with it.
OAKLEY: of course, they don't want that uncertainty hanging over them because they don't want groups in their own countries, and there are some
very heavy euroskeptic movements in several other European countries, they don't want them catching fire and contagion spreading from the British
exit.
So they are saying get on with it fast. David Cameron explained today, no, the Article 50 trigger for serious negotiations will not be pulled, he
said, by him, it would be pulled by the new leader of the conservative party, and new prime minister.
That can't happen until September the 2nd at the earliest. And he says it won't be pulled anyway until there is a shape emerging of what kind of deal
Britain might get out of Europe.
GORANI: Yes, it's a two-speed process. OK, we've got to leave --
QUEST: I'm just warming up.
GORANI: I know, but Iceland just equalized.
QUEST: You're not serious.
GORANI: I am serious.
QUEST: I'm going.
GORANI: All right. I'm just here to provide live coverage. I'm going to move. Boris Johnson said the U.K. will survive and thrive as never before.
The leading "leave" campaigner is urging people to be proud and positive. He also wanted to clear the air over what would happen to Europeans living
in the U.K. currently. Take a listen to Boris Johnson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BORIS JOHNSON, "LEAVE" CAMPAIGNER: I think a lot of confusion over the weekend about the status of people living in this country. It's absolutely
clear that people from other European countries, who are living here have their rights protected. All that people want to see is a system that's
fair, impartial, and humane for people coming from around the world, and for people from the U.K. living abroad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Hang on one second. Now, the opposition Labour Party has been in turmoil since the vote. Its leader, Jeremy Corbyn, spoke in parliament.
Listen to what he had to say about an apparent spike in hate crimes after the referendum.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEREMY CORBYN, LABOUR PARTY LEADER: The real concern exists about immigration. But too much of a discussion in the referendum campaign was
intemperate and divisive. And in the days following the referendum results, it appears we've seen a rise in racist incidents, such as the
attack which the prime minister quite right referred to, and sadly many other such incidents across this country.
I hope the prime minister and home secretary will take all action they can to halt these attacks, halt this disgraceful racist behavior on the streets
of this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: All right. Jeremy Corbyn there, the leader of the Labour Party, facing an internal revolt as many of his shadow ministers have resigned.
Here to talk about this leadership turmoil engulfing his party is Labour MP, Ben Bradshaw. Thanks for being with us. You're calling for Jeremy
Corbyn to go, correct?
BEN BRADSHAW, LABOUR MP: Yes, as have most of the people serving him loyally for the last ten months or so because I think they feel that after
the referendum, everything in this country has changed. Our politics, the economic turmoil, and at this time of all times, we need firm, clear, and
decisive leadership.
GORANI: What did he do wrong in your estimation?
BRADSHAW: Well, I mean, they have all been saying today in their resignation statements that he didn't provide leadership during the
referendum when he spoke in favor of the E.U. membership that was half- hearted. There are even reports well substantiated that his office tried to undermine the "in" campaign. But I think people are now focusing their
attention on the likely election in the general election.
[15:10:01]GORANI: But that's a serious accusation that the leader of the Labour Party was secretly campaigning against the "remain" camp. Do you
believe that?
BRADSHAW: Well, it's been made openly and publicly today by the man who ran the campaign, Alan Johnson, the very highly respected former home
office minister here. People's attention here is focused on the likely election in the autumn. The fear is among very many of my colleagues that
Jeremy has qualities, but he doesn't have the leadership qualities that we need to avoid a --
GORANI: He's saying I'm not going anywhere. He's very clear about that.
BRADSHAW: At the moment he's saying that. But I do hope that -- he's man who says that he has the best interests of the Labour Party and the country
at heart. And I think if that's really true, I hope he will reflect on the overwhelming view and the changing view among the party membership as well
who feel very let down over the European referendum that it would be in the interests of the party and the country if he went.
GORANI: As a Member of Parliament and many people have asked me this question and frankly I don't have an answer, but procedurally is this it?
The result of this referendum is final, there's no going back, no trying to massage it or come up with some other scenario that might allow the U.K. to
keep a foot in the E.U. somehow?
BRADSHAW: Well, no, you're right to ask that question because we don't know what's going to happen in the next seconds and minutes in Britain at
the moment, let alone the next weeks or months. Whatever is decided has to be voted here in parliament. There's a big parliamentary maintaining to
stay in the European Union. In my constituency, a big majority of voters voted to stay in. That's my mandate. So I will be doing everything I can
to minimize the damage.
GORANI: But what can you do?
BRADSHAW: Well, we have to wait to see what deal the Brexiteers come up with and the danger at the moment is they don't seem to have a plan. As
you said earlier in your introduction, they are clueless what to do now and this uncertainty is doing our country great damage.
GORANI: Ben Bradshaw, Labour MP, thanks so much for joining us on CNN. We appreciate your time. A lot more to come this evening. European leaders
meet in Berlin to discuss what comes next after the U.K.'s vote to leave the E.U. We'll have more on what Angela Merkel had to say. She says don't
waste any time, go ahead and get on with the process.
Then later, reports of racial taunts in the U.K. flood in following this Brexit vote. We'll dive deeper into that issue, ahead.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KERRY, U.S SECRETARY OF STATE: While there is some uncertainty in the air inevitably, leaders have the ability, individual people have the
ability and the responsibility to restore certainty by making wise choices in the days ahead.
And that means choices that to every degree possible are not aimed at retribution, not aimed in anger, but rather are thought through in a way
that brings people together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: John Kerry there. While European leaders have been busy huddled in emergency meetings, discussing Britain's impending departure from the
E.U.
[15:15:05]In Berlin, Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel says there will be no negotiations with the U.K. until it formally triggers the exit process.
That's a sentiment France and Italy echoed as well.
Our correspondents are tracking the view from Europe, Ivan Watson is in Berlin and Nic Robertson is in Brussels. So Ivan Watson, let's talk about
what kind of timeline Angela Merkel would like.
Because here it appears as though politicians are saying, listen, we need a few months, we need a new leader of the Tory Party, that won't be until
September. What timeline would Angela Merkel like?
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: She wasn't specific about this, after meeting with the prime minister of Italy and the
president of France here in Berlin, she said, OK, not days, but she did stress that this process does have to move forward, that Europe cannot
afford to remain in a stalemate. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGELA MERKEL, GERMAN CHANCELLOR (through translator): We, of course, wish not to have a stalemate here. It doesn't mean it's about days, but we have
to make sure that we will not be hanging in the balance, and the step has to be taken by Great Britain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATSON: That's of course for Britain to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, make a formal announcement that it is going to separate from the
European Union. She stressed a point that was echoed by her Italian and French counterparts here in Berlin just a few hours ago, that no informal
negotiations will begin to take place between Britain and the European Union until Article 50 was in fact invoked -- Hala.
GORANI: All right, Nic Robertson is in Brussels. Nic, I want to get to you. We heard from Angela Merkel and the leaders of E.U.-founding nations.
What do the politicians in Brussels, what do they want to see out of this? Do they want to find some sort of way to keep as close a relationship as
possible with the U.K. or are they basically happy to jettison the country and move on as a union of 27?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: I think some will look at Britain's track record on negotiating, and say, look, oftentimes you
haven't negotiated in good faith, you haven't been a fully-paid-up member of the European Union. You've stayed on the outskirts. You haven't been
part of the Schengen area, the passport free area. You haven't signed up and used the euro.
You've used the pound sterling still. So there's going to be that sentiment for sure. But others will be pragmatic, and Germany will be one
of those, and say, if Britain goes, we still have to service debt here, the European Union does.
And that burden, that bill is going to have to be shared out among others, and Germany perhaps considers itself in the front lines of picking up,
unfortunately, perhaps, the lion's share of that.
You absolutely have -- will have a range of views. But what everyone is clear on, this issue of no negotiations until Article 50 is triggered. But
you also have a sense that can something here be turned back, can Britain be persuaded to go back on this, can they do it legally? What can happen?
No one is articulating that formally. But again, another part of the equation here is it's a complex equation. They do want to see Britain
measure up and act in good faith and be clear that they are at some point going to trigger Article 50.
You had Secretary of State John Kerry coming here today, and really his sense of the temperature here I think was -- the political temperature at
least between the European Union and Britain was in some ways reflected in the language that he used. He was really calling for calmer heads. This
is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERRY: I think it is absolutely essential that we stay focused on how in this transitional period nobody loses their head, nobody goes off half-
cocked. People don't start ginning up, you know, scatter brained or revengeful premises. But we look for ways to maintain the strength that
will serve the interests and the values that brought us together in the first place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON: So David Cameron himself will be able to get a flavor of the political temperature himself because he'll be walking into these buildings
by early afternoon tomorrow -- Hala.
GORANI: All right, Nic Robertson in Brussels, Ivan Watson in Berlin, thanks to both of you.
Disturbing reports out of the U.K. here suggesting racial abuse has been on the rise since the vote to leave the E.U. Police are investigating several
incidents including some in the Polish community.
Those who are critical of the "leave" campaign's rhetoric stay they stirred up anti-immigrant sentiment in the country and as a result of Brexit, it
has given some people, they believe, license to say things and do things against some racial and ethnic minorities.
[15:20:09]Our Diana Magnay has more on that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DIANA MAGNAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): To find the Polish community in London, head down to the boroughs of Hammersmith and Wheeling in the
west. There's a long history of Polish immigration here, the Polish center, the heart of a well-integrated community, which is why an act of
vandalism over the weekend has come as such a shock.
(on camera): You can still see the traces of the yellow paint in which this slogan was daubed across the front of the Polish Community Center.
They stretch all the way down across this glass facade, right up to the Polish eagle at the end. I'm not going to tell you what exactly was said.
But you can glean it was "go home," but in slightly less savory language.
The graffiti is gone now, the hate replaced with flowers and messages of support. Joanna Mudzinska (ph) who runs the center says this isn't a one-
off.
JOANNA MUDZINSKA, POLISH SOCIAL AND CULTURAL ASSOCIATION: We have had reports and we're seeing pictures of things being pushed through people's
doors, describing them as vermin, scum, and verbal abuse.
MAGNAY: We met Marianna Koli (ph) who moved here from Finland when she was 18. On Saturday, she experienced what she felt was the first racist
incident of her 16 years in the U.K.
MARIANNA KOLI, ECONOMIST, NEW COLLEGE OF THE HUMANITIES: I was walking on high street. I was talking to a friend of mine, speaking in English. A
tap from behind me a few feet away shouted, I like your accent, in a very loud voice. I did feel it was a bit threatening. It clearly wasn't
intended as a compliment.
MAGNAY (on camera): So it was almost sarcastic?
KOLI: That's what it sounded like to me, yes. It was saying I see you, I've noticed you are foreign and I would like to tell you that you're
foreign.
MAGNAY (voice-over): London's Metropolitan Police say they've seen a 57 percent increase in reporting to their "Stop Hate Crime" web site, a
Facebook group calling itself worrying signs had logged a thousand incidents since it was set up on Saturday. Go home, with the response I am
home, one of the least offensive of the postings here.
One Polish girl we followed up with e-mailing to say she had full-on excrement through the letter box and was planning on leaving the U.K. if it
didn't stop. Britain's Prime Minister David Cameron raised the issue in parliament.
DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I spoke to the Polish prime minister this afternoon to say how concerned I was about the terror attacks
taking place and to reassure her that we are doing everything we could everything we could to protect Polish citizens in our country.
MAGNAY: But the prime minister's promises may ring hollow to European ears right now. More than messages of support at a grass roots level that would
reassure Britain's European communities that they're still welcome in a country they call home. Diana Magnay, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Well, Robin Oakley is here with us. So this is quite troubling because we're seeing some these incidents post-Brexit, people saying we
voted you out. There are reports of people obviously foreign or wearing head scarves, et cetera, and also getting sort of racial abuse hurled at
them.
Is it the feeling that perhaps some of the rhetoric used in the "leave" camp's campaign may contribute somehow to this?
OAKLEY: It certainly doesn't seem entirely a coincidence. It does seem like the genie being let out of the bottle --
GORANI: One moment, I've got to find your microphone. I apologize. Live television. No worries. We've got it all under control. Perhaps the
genie having been let out of the bottle.
OAKLEY: Yes, people feeling they have been legitimized in making these kind of gestures and this kind of racist abuse by the whole process of
Britain coming out of the European Union, which is obviously not right. If there was one thing which united all the parties in the House of Commons
this afternoon during David Cameron's report, it was their reaction to these kind of incidents.
GORANI: Yes, unanimously condemning this type of behavior.
OAKLEY: Police should get after it as hard as they can, there's no place for that kind of thing in British society, in or out of the E.U.
GORANI: Although some of "leave" campaigners are now saying it never had anything to do with immigration when immigration was brought up time and
time again. You'll remember Nigel Farage's big poster with the words "breaking point" and a big group of Syrians and Slovenia, nothing to do
with the U.K. This has to have stirred up anti-immigrant sentiment.
OAKLEY: I mean, you have to say that immigration was one of the major factors in this campaign. Whether it was articulated in every case or not.
Certainly a lot of the people who voted leave, you only have to talk to people on the street, said so. They say there are too many foreigners in
the country, too many migrants coming in.
[15:25:06]People weren't always very specific and they often made exceptions about some of the immigrants they knew personally or worked
alongside or whatever. But that was a common feeling expressed to the politicians.
And if there is something that the politicians have got to answer for in Britain over the last few years, it is that they haven't responded
sufficiently to this issue.
Governments have not put enough resources into areas where the arrival of immigrants has put a strain on education services or hospital services or
whatever it may be.
GORANI: Or helped economically deprived areas regardless of their immigrant populations as well. You have a centralized country here, London
is a big urban areas, but then you have post-industrial malaise in a lot of the country.
OAKLEY: Yes. The irony is you often get the worst reactions to the idea of increased immigration coming in areas where there are actually not very
many immigrants. But this of course is probably one of the reasons why there was such a difference between the vote in London, very much a pro-
E.U. vote.
London is used to the globalized society, they're a multicultural society. People of every nationality mingling, going to restaurants of every
nationality that you can think of. That's not true in rural Britain, to anything like the same extent.
GORANI: Robin Oakley, thanks very much.
Coming up next, what next for the United Kingdom? I speak to a prominent member from each side of the country who mulled over the ramifications of
Brexit.
Plus why the "leave" camp is now on the defensive. They say they have not broken promises they made to win the vote.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: We are coming to you from the Houses of Parliament in Central London live. I'm Hala Gorani. Welcome back to our special program as
British politics are in turmoil after the country's historic vote to leave the European Union.
The United Kingdom and the world still feeling the shock waves of Britain voting to leave this union. Here are the major strands we're following
right now.
Standard and Poor's has just downgraded Britain's top sovereign credit rating from a stellar AAA to AA. That's two notches, as volatility rocks
financial markets. The pound today slumped to its lowest level in 31 years floating with a 131 level against the dollar.
Prime Minister David Cameron has urged his country to accept the results despite the challenges ahead. His party says his successor will likely be
in place by early September. That person will negotiate Britain's exit.
The opposition Labour Party has been in turmoil since the vote. Its leader, Jeremy Corbyn spoke out about an apparent spike in hate crimes in
the Commons today. He's having to weather an internal revolt.
Leaders of the "leave" camp find themselves in an awkward position right now. They are on the defensive, even after they won the Brexit vote.
Becky Anderson looks at the promises the "leave" campaign is accused of breaking.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The total number of votes cast in favor of leave was 82,000 --
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just days after Britain's dramatic vote to leave the European Union, key pledges from the "leave"
campaign are already being broken. Promise number one, the leave campaign said the E.U. cost Britain 350 million pounds a week, money some said would
be plowed back into the National Health Service.
U.K.'s Independence Party leader, Nigel Farage, says he never made that promise and insists the "leave" campaign should not have made that pledge
in the first place. Now the vote is over, the "leave" campaign's John Redwood says it's not that simple.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn't count the money that you get back from the E.U.
JOHN REDWOOD, CONSERVATIVE MP, LEAVE CAMPAIGNER: We'll get back some of the money to spend as we wish and other money we'll spend on the same
things the E.U. spent.
ANDERSON: Promise number two, we'll take control of the borders, "leave" campaign has said. Many "leave" voters thought that meant bringing
immigration down. But the day after the vote, "leave" campaigner, Daniel Hammond, refused to say it would.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have never ever made any commitment on numbers ever. On the contrary, I have said -- we would take back control.
ANDERSON: Promise number three, the economy will be fine. But the pound is significantly lower against the dollar. Companies are putting
investments on hold and great forecast for the British economy have been slashed. For the "leave" campaign this is no surprise. They stress the
economy will be fine in the long run. Becky Anderson, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Let's get the view from both sides of this argument. I'm joined here in West Minster by Crispin Blunt, a Conservative Member of Parliament
who supported the "leave" camp and Menzies Campbell, who is the former leader of the Liberal Democrats and supported "remain."
We've just shown some of the promises made by the "leave" camp, the 350 million pound (inaudible) sent to the E.U. was one of them. Now we're
hearing from Nigel Farage that wasn't his promise, but it was part of leave campaign, that probably won't happen.
MENZIES CAMPBELL, FORMER LIBERAL DEMOCRAT LEADER: You have a more profound break, and that is all the way through the campaign, the clear implication
of those arguing for leave is that they would reduce immigration. But in the course of the last 24 hours, they say we never actually promised to
reduce immigration. They allowed people to believe that that was a particular plank in their program.
GORANI: And you're saying that's a promise that would be broken?
CAMPBELL: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
GORANI: Crispin Blunt, how do you react to that?
CRISPIN BLUNT, "LEAVE" SUPPORTER: The promise was to control immigration. At the moment you can't control immigration from the European Union. Once
we've left the European Union then it's up to us as a country then to set what controls we deem appropriate for the United Kingdom. This was about
taking back control.
Now it's almost certain that we would then want to limit unskilled and semiskilled immigration into the United Kingdom from the European Union so
we can protect the jobs of all of those people who are competing against professionally qualified people for those kinds of jobs in our country,
professionally qualified people from southern and eastern and central Europe. That's where our --
GORANI: This is what many "leave" voters, by the way, have told us. They say my hourly wage has come down. We have Eastern European migrant workers
putting pressure on our pay.
CAMPBELL: They work. They come in and do the job. They get on with it. They're highly motivated. They want to do well. That's why they make
money and send it home. They're not paying British tax. The point about these migrants is you have to assess their contribution to the economy.
They pay more in tax than they take out in public services.
In my view it was a deeply unpleasant feature to all of this, particularly Nigel Farage's poster in which he took a photograph of cold, hungry
refugees from Syria, queuing up at a fence in Europe, and giving the impression that all of these people were coming here.
GORANI: We heard a lot of that from the leave campaign, a lot of anti- migrant rhetoric, a lot of -- for instance, this poster, Syrian migrants in Slovenia, nothing at all to do with the U.K. -- is that not a fact?
[15:35:06]BLUNT: Not that I want to (inaudible) Mr. Farage because obviously he was talking about the implications and the messaging sent out
from that poster. What Farage would say is that actually what that poster was about is that the European Union isn't working, the Schengen area isn't
working. This is a statement of fact.
GORANI: But it wasn't a threat to the U.K.
BLUNT: The United Kingdom as a member of the European Union has a moral obligation, even if we're not in the Schengen area, to try an assist our
partners in the European Union. We saw that by the U.K. deciding to take 3,000 children from Europe, not from the camps. Now, by Syrian refugees,
for example, we are engaged in this whether we like it or not.
GORANI: That was the result of pressure in parliament.
CAMPBELL: It's a nice try. Canterbury was motivated to say that what Farage was saying was racist, I mean, the sort of stuff that was coming out
from his part of the campaign deeply, deeply unpleasant.
BLUNT: Now all of this has got to be calmed down. And it's going to be completely clear that the United Kingdom is going to continue to stand for
liberal, international values, for tolerance and openness, and we're going to play that role on a global stage rather than within the European Union.
CAMPBELL: We have been --
BLUNT: All the people who voted "remain," particularly younger people, will be making a values judgment, a values vote. They need calm
reassurance that the values of the United Kingdom --
CAMPBELL: We play on an international stage. Members of NATO, members of the E.U., leading member of the Commonwealth, permanent member of the
Security Council of the United Nations, in the G8. We've got as international a role as we can imagine. We get (inaudible) in all of these
roles because we're in all of them together, they carry with them a certain --
BLUNT: These arguments are of course over about whether -- about the United Kingdom and the benefits or disbenefits of being in the European
Union. We've had the referendum campaign, a choice has been made by the country. Now the country needed to make that choice because it's always
had a conflicted position with the European Union. I think it's much better that we play a positive role outside.
GORANI: But look at what's happening on markets? Do you think this is just a temporary?
BLUNT: Of course, it's temporary. You have to put the decision in context. The last time we had a referendum was 41 years ago. The country
has taken a major strategic decision for decades. Of course there's going to be turbulence and fuss for a year or two, and uncertainty in the
immediate days after the decision. All of this is going to settle down and we're going to get back to the fundamentals of the U.K. economy.
GORANI: Crispin Blunt says this is just temporary, a year or two, and then we'll get back to business as usual?
CAMPBELL: Why did the chairman of the fed in the United States say that if Britain left the European Union, the consequence not just for Britain or
for Europe and indeed for the world economy, the shock waves of this decision are still being felt around the world. The pound went to its
lowest level in 31 years, something like that. That has an immediate effect on people's pensions. It has an immediate effect on what they spend
when they go on holiday. It hits people in their pockets right at the beginning.
GORANI: You've heard, of course, the idea that Frankfurt and Paris are trying to get the financial regulatory body to move to one of their cities.
The U.K., I think I believe the U.K. financial services industry is almost a fifth of GDP in this case. Little by little, this is going to have to
hurt the economy tremendously if you lose that control.
BLUNT: Well, you regain control.
GORANI: But how, if you're not within --
BLUNT: There are financial services businesses in my constituency whose line of business has been taken out by the Solvency 2 Directive, for
example, where the price of the equity release industry into the United Kingdom has been increased by property not being allowed to count as an
asset for those businesses.
Now, that means if you want to take money out of your house, the price of that is just increased because of European regulation. That kind of thing
we will no longer be subject to. There are plusses and minuses on both sides of the aisle.
CAMPBELL: JPMorgan says they're thinking of taking a thousand jobs away, there's surely time for people to ask themselves have we made the right
decision.
GORANI: Men Campbell, one last question to you. You've been in politics and in public life a very long time. What are your thoughts after this
referendum, seeing your country pull itself out of the E.U.?
CAMPBELL: We're divided socially, economically, and politically. The United Kingdom is at risk because the argument for an additional
independence referendum in Scotland is now taking root once again.
[15:40:12]We are in a position where for the next two years at least, there will be nothing but uncertainty. That's a big price to pay for this major
decision.
GORANI: Crispin Blunt, thank you very much. Men Campbell, thanks to both of you for joining us on CNN, live here at Westminster.
Coming up, much more on the ongoing political turmoil here in the U.K. I'll speak to Tony Blair's former chief of staff on where this country goes
next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Let's get some more reaction following another day of turmoil. I'm joined from Geneva by Jonathan Powell, the former chief of staff to
Tony Blair. Thank you very much for joining us.
What are your thoughts first of all in what's happening in the Labour Party right now? Jeremy Corbyn is clearly facing an internal revolt. He says
he's not going anywhere. Do you think he should step down?
JONATHAN POWELL, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO TONY BLAIR: I think what we need is a pro-European leader. Clearly there will have to be an election later
this year. The new prime minister will need a new mandate for negotiating with the E.U. We clearly need a pro-European candidate who will run for
that job. I think that's what the Labour Party is in the process of doing.
GORANI: Do you think Jeremy Corbyn, some of his own party members have said, including one, Ben Bradshaw, that I just interviewed said, we
suspected he was secretly campaigning against the "remain" side here. Do you believe some of that to be true?
POWELL: Well, at the very least he clearly didn't have his heart in it in terms of the European campaign, and that's one of the things that
contributed to the results. Clearly if you're going to have an election campaign and the election is going to be fought on the issue of Europe, you
have to have a pro-European leader who represents the views of the party. I think that's why the party is seeking a new leader.
GORANI: What do you think is going to happen with the U.K. now? Do you think it will weather the storm and we'll go through a couple of years of
difficult times and a weak pound and then bounce right back up, or do you think this Brexit is going to relegate it to a smaller, less important role
outside of the big decision making centers in Brussels?
POWELL: Well, I think as you heard from your last interviews, this isn't over yet. I think you're seeing quite a bad case of buyer's remorse from
the Brexiteers. You have Boris Johnson paddling rapidly in the direction of saying we'll stay in the single market.
So I think they are moving very fast. They didn't really expect the outcome and they're trying to live with the consequences and try and look
like they're moderates. I think there's a long way to go on this debate yet.
I think that it's perfectly possible we'll have another referendum. If you remember, Boris Johnson said, before he became the leader of the Brexit
campaign, that his ideal solution would be to have a referendum, then to have a renegotiation and then another referendum.
If you like the Irish option, the Irish have done this twice, and there's absolutely no reason why Boris Johnson's original view before he stood for
the Brexit campaign shouldn't be the case now.
[05:45:11]GORANI: So you think it's possible that we'll go through all of this again? I mean, at what point will the country then accept the results
of the referendum? This was clearly a win for the Brexiteers.
POWELL: It was clearly a win for the Brexit vote, a very narrow win, but a win. But the point is it's a vote against something. It's a vote against
our membership in the E.U. What it doesn't do is give a mandate to a prime minister for anything positive.
So the prime minister won't know, should he go for a Norway option where we stand in a single market? Should he go for a Canada option where we are
outside and have a free trade agreement, or should he go for a WTO option?
It has for a mandate for a positive negotiation. This is about the future of Britain. We're still a long, long way from a solution on this problem.
Whatever happens, whether it happens or not, we'll have uncertainty for a long period of time.
GORANI: And uncertainty, as you know, means declining markets, a weak pound, it means people unwilling to invest in Britain until they get a
clearer picture on what's going to happen in this country. Are you concerned that this is really going to hurt the United Kingdom? Are you
concerned that potentially Scotland will vote to secede from the U.K. and stay in Europe?
POWELL: It's certainly going to hurt the U.K. financially, economically. It's also going to hurt us politically. Our voice will not be heard in the
way that it was before as part of the E.U. So yes, there are serious consequences.
Furthermore, I do fear it could lead to the end of the United Kingdom. It looks highly likely to me from the back of this there will be a referendum
in Scotland. It looks highly likely that referendum will go the way of independence, it wouldn't surprise me at all.
If we were to leave the single market, we would have to introduce a hard border, a customs border, and an immigration border between Scotland and
England, and furthermore, in Northern Ireland where I've just come back from, this is opened up the whole issue again.
Northern Ireland voted in favor of remain. The whole basis on which we came to the Good Friday agreement was there wouldn't be a hard border
between Ireland south and Ireland north. Now if we leave and Ireland stays in as they clearly will, there will be different immigration policies and a
hard border between north and south. The future of the United Kingdom is really at threat now.
GORANI: I mean, what could still be done to try to salvage this and not put this country through several years of uncertainty while we wait to
maybe hold another referendum, maybe not, while we negotiate Brexit? What can still be done here?
POWELL: Well, I think there are a series of steps. The most important step is a negative step. What we should not do is trigger Article 50. It
is clear that David Cameron is not going to trigger Article 50. And the E.U. has made it clear there will be no informal negotiations before
Article 50 has been triggered.
So we won't have any negotiations until at least David Cameron stands down and we have a new Tory leader who becomes prime minister. As I say, there
will then need to be a general election to decide what the mandate is for that new prime minister to negotiate with Europe.
And that mandate may come out of the election which can of course be more important than a referendum that might come out of the election as a
mandate to stay in. That would be a far better outcome than what we face at the moment.
GORANI: Jonathan Powell, former chief of staff to Tony Blair, joining us from Geneva. Thank you very much for being on the program this evening.
We travel to the "leave" heartland to see why millions in the U.K. voted to get out of the E.U., in their own words. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's very unfair towards the younger generation. It really is. We're now old and to be deprived of the scholarships, grants
for research, academic scientific, never mind easy movement through the E.U.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: That was taken and filmed in London with that lady, where the majority of people voted to remain in the referendum. But that wasn't true
for the whole country, far from it. This map shows just how much of the U.K. voted to leave. It includes Hull on the east coast.
The vast majority of people there voted to leave. Why did they want out so badly? Let's go to Phil Black. He is live there now with more. Hi there,
Phil.
PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Hala. Yes, it was here that 67 percent of voters decided that Britain should leave the European
Union. We've been talking to people today, didn't find anyone who regrets that decision or who regrets the consequences on global markets, the fall
in the pound, anything like that, because this is a city with longstanding, significant social and economic problems.
And the people, many of them who voted for Brexit, did so in the hope of shaking up the politics and the economic policies, which they believe have
been failing them for decades.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLACK (voice-over): Europe is that way, across the North Sea. Every morning there is disembarking cargo from the Netherlands and Belgium here
on the banks of Northern England. This trade convoy then disperses across the United Kingdom and every evening British products make the return
journey to the continent.
It's why this city, Hull, is often called the gateway to Europe. That's a glamorous title for a long-neglected city. Life in hull is hard for many.
Parts of the community are among the poorest and most deprived in the whole United Kingdom. They're among the most fed up with the European Union.
(on camera): Did you vote?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BLACK: How did you vote?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I voted out.
BLACK (voice-over): By a ratio of more than 2 to 1, the people of Hull voted for Britain to exit the E.U.
(on camera): Why did you vote leave?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fed up with being told what we can do and can't do.
BLACK (voice-over): It's something you hear a lot. They backed Brexit because they feel they have nothing to lose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing to lose, have we? I don't think so.
BLACK: Why do you feel that way?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We haven't gotten anywhere, do you think? You'll wait two weeks to get into the doctors.
BLACK (voice-over): Another common view, the local result was punishment for the policies of British politicians, especially the ruling Conservative
Party.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were let down by the Conservatives.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're sick and tired of not hearing their voice.
BLACK: For many there is there is also sense things have changed here too quickly, and for the worst, because of immigration.
(on camera): A lot of people in Hull voted to leave, big numbers. Why do you think that happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It didn't seem to be safe anymore. It was always like a close-knit community, but now so many kinds of --
BLACK: Were you surprised by the result in Hull?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I was.
BLACK: Angus Young covers politics for Hull's local newspaper. He says recent European immigration has energized parts of the economy, with shops
opening on formerly abandoned streets, but there are social strains too.
ANGUS YOUNG, "HULL DAILY MAIL": There has been a big influx and it's caused a lot of tension and displaced a lot of people. People feeling
uneasy, putting pressure on services.
BLACK: There is money coming into Hull, private, public, and from the E.U. This is a huge project, more than 300 million pounds invested by the German
company, Siemens, and associated British port to build a plant for making the blades for offshore wind turbines. Some here are predicting jobs and
growth.
But too many believe they've been left behind in the wake of economic change. In angry protest, they demand the E.U. flag and much of what it
stands for must now be removed from this gateway to Europe.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[05:55:01]BLACK: So Hala, a clear majority of voters are in favor of Brexit, but certainly it's not what everyone here wants. Not at all. We
spoke to immigrants who are feeling nervous, who say they have sensed a change in the atmosphere and they're deeply worried about what could come
next.
Those who voted remain, well they are angry about the result, angry about the conduct of the leave campaign, especially those who led it. They say
both in the lead up to the vote and since then as well.
And those who voted for remain also feel suddenly as if it they are a distinct minority here. One woman said to me she has suddenly realized she
doesn't think the same way as other people, doesn't believe in the same things as other people here, and is deeply worried that she doesn't fit in,
in the city where she spent her entire life, where she grew up and has worked ever since.
So although there is such a clear majority here in favor of Britain leaving the European Union, it's clear that this place has also experienced the
sort of deep divisions that the rest of the United Kingdom have suffered through this whole process -- Hala.
GORANI: All right, Phil Black in Hull, England. You can get more on the fallout from Brexit at our website, cnn.com. You'll find a special section
devoted to the U.K.'s uncertain future in the wake of the historic decision.
And don't forget, you can get all the latest news, interviews, and analysis from our show on my Facebook page, facebook.com/halagoranicnn.
This has been THE WORLD RIGHT NOW live from Westminster, thanks for watching. Much more ahead. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" comes to you live from
the Houses of Parliament. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Another brutal day on Wall Street, thank goodness it's over or at least coming to a close. The pound
lost considerable ground and now it's time to bring it all to an end.
The closing bell is ringing, time for the man to hit the --
END
