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Hala Gorani Tonight
Shooting At Shopping Mall In Munich, Germany; German Media Report Six Dead In Munich Shooting; German Police: Five Dead In Munich Shooting; Eyewitness: I Saw Gunman Loading Weapon. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired July 22, 2016 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (via telephone): -- yes, it really appears to be a fairly chaotic situation right now. Police at one point were denying
reports that there had been a shooting in the center of the city.
But they've also cordoned off large parts of the center of the town and anybody who has been to Munich will remember that it is a very densely
populated city. It's a very dense urban environment, especially in the center of that town.
So it would be a very dangerous situation obviously if there were armed people running through the streets shooting there. Again, we don't know if
that's actually happening, but that appears to be the fear at least.
Where we do know that the shooting occurred in the north, around this Olympia Park, it is not the same kind of urban environment in the center of
town, in the old town.
HANNAH VAUGHAN JONES, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Matthew, we appreciate it. Matthew (inaudible), thank you.
Hello. If you're just joining us here at CNN. I'm Hannah Vaughan Jones live from CNN London with the very latest on the breaking news that we've
been bringing you over the course of the last couple of hours.
Police are investigating multiple shootings in Munich in Germany, and they're urging people to avoid all public places, saying that the situation
in that city is still unclear.
Here is the very latest that we can bring you. An urgent search is currently under way for the gunman. Police said a short time ago that we
do know where the perpetrators are. Significantly, it was "perpetrators" plural as well.
We're now learning witnesses have been telling police that they saw three different people carrying firearms. One shooting took place at Munich's
Olympia Shopping Center in the north of the city.
German media have now been reported that six people are dead and many others are believed to be wounded, and indeed that was just confirmed by
Matthew (inaudible) of "Politico," who said that an acquaintance of his had indeed confirmed that she had seen six bodies within that shopping center.
The eyewitness, Lynn Stein (ph), joins me now on the line from Munich. Lynn, some very, very disturbing news coming out from Munich this evening.
We now understand that six people are confirmed to have died.
Apparently many more injured and possibly many more fatally injured as well. From where you are, which I believe is near the shopping center,
what's the activity around you?
LYNN STEIN, EYEWITNESS, MUNICH, GERMANY (via telephone): People are still gathered waiting for what to do. The helicopter is trying to find the
perpetrators. There are police cars around. It's also kind of getting dark right now, rainy, (inaudible) situation right now.
Nobody really knows what we're supposed to do. I guess, most of the police, they're actually on the situation and trying to find the
perpetrators. We don't really have any information of what to do or where to go.
JONES: Do you know if there are still people within the shopping center?
STEIN: There are still people within the shopping center. Some people are still inside some of the stores that they closed down. My colleague is
actually also inside the mall still. She was inside a store, apparently. So far police have not yet come to get them.
JONES: OK, so obviously the lines of communication are still open in terms of the mobile phone networks and the like. But we have also heard that the
transport network across Munich has effectively shut down, trying to avoid people gathering in one place at one time.
What have you heard from your friend in particular who is still in that shopping center? What did she or he see at the time? And what information
are they being told now about what's happening around them?
STEIN: She's not told me very much. She said she only heard the shots and then got scared and people were running so she started running as well with
them. And I know that she also went back into the store, maybe 20 or 30 minutes later, because she had left the store open in the mall, but she
left her bag and all her belongings. Then she was apparently with some other people in a storage room from a different store close by.
JONES: Lynn, as a resident in Munich, has the city been prepared for this sort of event happening? Have there been drills in the event of an attack
taking place, "this is what you do?"
STEIN: No, not at all.
JONES: Nothing at all?
[15:05:05]STEIN: No, nothing at all. We weren't expecting anything to happen that soon, so there wasn't really any drills.
JONES: So you haven't had any increased police presence or anything like that especially in the aftermath of the attack that happened just a couple
of days ago when a young man, a young migrant seems to have taken an ax to a number of people on a train, there hasn't been increased security after
that?
STEIN: I would say not really. I haven't really been downtown a lot lately, so I don't know. I haven't really seen that many more police
officers around. It might have been, but it wasn't like a gigantic number.
I know that there has been more like after -- with the refugees, when the refugees came over to Munich, since that time there has been like more
police presence, especially like the central station.
And I think that has stayed around the same number. It's not like a gigantic amount. Police are doing an announcement, hold on.
JONES: OK. We'll let you listen into that and update us. We're talking to Lynn Stein at the moment, an eyewitness to the shopping center attack,
the Olympia Shopping Center in Northern Munich as well, who has just been giving us an update on all of the police presence around that shopping
center.
It's about three hours ago now, early evening in Germany when this attack first unfolded. We have heard reports since then that there have been
several locations across the city where police are conducting operations, and the perpetrators, plural, are we believe still at large.
And the latest that we've been hearing is that six people have been confirmed to have lost their lives. And Lynn, if you're still with us,
perhaps you can update us on what you just heard.
STEIN: We're supposed to move down the street and leave the area we're in currently.
JONES: OK. Are you inside at the moment or are you out on the street?
STEIN: I've been outside this whole time. We're supposed to cross the street and follow the people.
JONES: We still don't know of course whether the police operation inside the shopping center is still at large, if an attacker is possibly inside
that shopping center. You've already said your friend and indeed numerous other members of staff as well will be in that shopping center. It's a
very fluid and frightening situation, I imagine.
STEIN: Yes, definitely. Everybody is supposed to go down the street with our hands raised above our heads so there's like hundreds of people just
migrating down that street.
JONES: Just so I can clarify what you just said there, Lynn, all of the witnesses gathered outside the shopping center have been asked by the
police to walk down the street with your arms raised above your heads.
STEIN: Exactly.
JONES: Do you know why you've been asked to put your arms above your heads? Are people concerned that there might be more people around
carrying firearms?
STEIN: Maybe, I don't know. They didn't say. That's just what they told us to do. Not everybody is doing it but some people are.
JONES: OK. And are you impressed with the police presence in and around that shopping center at the moment? Did they seem to be getting a grip on
what's going on?
STEIN: I really can't say. I hope they are.
JONES: Yes. Lynn, we really appreciate all of your analysis of what's been going on from this eyewitness account, Lynn there outside the Olympia
Shopping Center in Northern Munich where of course this shooting spree, this shooting rampage, as one police spokesperson put it first began three
hours ago. Lynn, stay safe and thanks very much indeed.
Our Will Ripley is here with me in London, joins me right now. Will, six people we understand have been confirmed to have lost their lives in this
incident, but it's still moving very quickly. What's the latest?
WILL RIPLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is and noteworthy that Munich police are calling this suspected terrorism. But we do have that
video I was telling you about a short time ago cleared now for air.
This is an exchange with a man believed to be the shooter in a parking lot and people are taking video and yelling at this individual. And he replied
to them that he is German. You can also hear gunfire in the video.
Now the fact that the attacker is German, again, indicates that this may not be a jihadist, if you will, but could be a citizen of Germany targeting
whoever for unknown reasons. It doesn't take away from the fact that German police still consider this terrorism.
But is it a case of domestic terrorism? Again, we just don't have the answer to that. Two active scenes at least, possible more around the city
right now, in the northwest side of town, the Olympia mall.
People in that area on lockdown. Also in the center of the city, a major operation. Evacuations and the halting of service for the metro subway
lines. Bus lines have also stopped in the middle of a Friday rush hour evening.
[15:10:08]Leaving perhaps many people not knowing where to go, if they were far away from their homes just told to get out of public areas. The State
Department telling Americans in Munich to shelter in place, which is also what Munich police have been saying.
Now the hashtag on social media #opendoor is trending, which means that people are offering up their homes to strangers, who may have been stranded
and looking for a safe place to hunker down until this storm is over.
Because at the moment, until these shooters are either arrested or taken down, there is a clear and present danger for people in Munich right now.
And you have a city of 1.5 million people at a virtual standstill, people being told to wait until the situation is under control.
JONES: Will, just stand by, if you will. We want to just bring that video that we've just been showing and play the audio as well.
(VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: Will, apparently the man on the roof there saying "I am German, I am German." You've been discussing whether this could therefore be some
sort of domestic terror incidents as well. But some of the guests over the last half hour have said that there are a number of German nationals known
to have traveled abroad to join jihadi groups and radicalized in some way.
So domestic terrorism possibly, also it could be a case, someone who has been abroad and trained and come back, or indeed it could not be terror at
all.
RIPLEY: Yes, absolutely. And of course, we saw in the France attacks also a number of jihadists that were radicalized in France, some went to Syria
or even were radicalized online.
So at this point, just as the number of the dead often will fluctuate, the number of injured, we certainly hope that the number goes down, not up,
also the motive for the attack is something that we may not know for the next several hours, we may not know for the next several days.
It took several days for ISIS to claim responsibility for that attack a week ago in Nice that killed 84 people on the French Riviera and injured
more than 200. But just three days ago there was that attack on a train where an Afghan teenager who had pledged allegiance to ISIS, there was a
homemade ISIS flag in his room, four people were injured before police shot that teenager.
So there have also been calls for an attacks on Germany, a key U.S. ally. President Obama just a short time ago, we don't have the video turned yet,
but obviously saying that his heart goes out to those who may have been injured, pointing out that it's an active situation.
And Germany is one of the closest allies of the United States, which makes Germany a target just like it makes France a target. Here in the U.K.,
certainly not in the heart of Europe, it's a little harder for somebody to access. But the U.K. here as well is a target.
There is a fear. There is fear that these types of attacks are going to become a common part of life, and especially as ISIS loses territory on the
ground, they've been calling for an attacks to project an image of strength here in Europe -- Hannah.
JONES: Will, thanks very much indeed. As you were talking we've had other confirmation that Munich police are saying that this shooting does indeed
look like a terror attack. And that's certainly what all of our commentators have been implying or suggesting as well over the course of
the last hour.
I also want to bring you the comments that we've just heard from President Obama as well on the situation unfolding in Munich, in Germany at the
moment.
He says, quote, "Some of you are aware there were shootings in Germany. We don't know exactly what is happening there, but obviously our hearts go out
to those who may have been injured. It is still an active situation. And Germany is one of our closest allies so we'll pledge all of the support
they need in dealing with these circumstances."
That was President Obama commenting on the unfolding situation in Munich just a short time ago. Joining me now is the editor-in-chief for BILD,
Julian Reichelt, who joins me from Berlin.
Julian, thanks again for joining us on the program. We understand six people have lost their lives so far, that's the number we know so far.
Also German police saying that this looks like a terror attack.
JULIAN REICHELT, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, BILD (via telephone): Correct. The police says that they call it an active terror situation right now although
we do not know anything about the background of this attack right now.
[15:15:05]The police also say that rifles were used in this attack, this is not confirmed or verified by anyone, of all reporters on the ground or
images we have seen so far. So it looks like something coordinated right now, but anything regarding the background up to now is unclear.
JONES: Julian, just a short time ago we were showing our viewers some video taken from a roof with a man interacting with witnesses. And he was
apparently saying "I am German, I'm German." What do you make of that, your reaction to that video?
REICHELT: Well, everything our reporters on the ground and everyone analyzing the situation right now indicates actually against the layout we
have seen so far of Islamist terrorist attacks. We are seeing a person who apparently is the perpetrator or one of the perpetrators speaking German.
To me it sounds like he has a Bavarian accent. It doesn't sound like he's coming from an immigrant community. Also, we have reports of -- still
unconfirmed, I have to say, one of the perpetrators directing one of the guns against himself, maybe shooting himself.
That would be very, very unlikely for anyone of Islamist background. A third indication, it's the fifth anniversary today of the Oslo terrorist
attack by Breivik, which had a right wing motivation.
So very unclear situation, very confusing situation. The little indicators, the details we're seeing right now do not point towards the
layout we've seen of Islamists attacks in the past but rather something of domestic terrorism, German background with unclear motivations. That's the
picture we're getting right now.
JONES: Julian, update our viewers if you can on the migrant situation in Germany at the moment, particularly the migrant situation in Munich. We
know that Germany had effectively an open door policy to migrants coming from the Middle East, Syria and the like, "come into our country and
contribute to the economy as well, and we will welcome you." Is that something that's going to play into the narrative that unfolds in the
aftermath of these attacks?
REICHELT: Well, obviously we first have to see, you know, what the motivation for this is. It looks coordinated, the police call it a
terrorist attack, which has a political background. But we do not know what political background of this act of terrorism is so far.
There are two possible scenarios. One obviously is an Islamist background. It doesn't seem likely right now. The other one would be more domestic
background. But both, you know, would have been in the backdrop of the migrant situation.
Because one scenario would be that people would blame it on the migrants. The other scenario would be that it would be something going actively
against this migration situation we've seen here over the past year or so.
We can say for sure that, you know, in any scenario, the whole debate will be about what it did to German society, the migration situation in the
past. This topic for sure will come up. Right now we do not know how it played into the motives of the perpetrators, the motives of the terrorists.
JONES: Julian Reichelt from BILD, we appreciate you talking to us here at CNN, thank you.
Now we are going to stay with this story. The latest we're hearing is there are at least three attackers now on the run in and around Munich.
There are multiple locations still being searched. The city itself is currently on lockdown.
People are being told to stay at home and avoid public areas. A warning now that the video that we are about to show you does contain some
disturbing images. This video shows some victims on the side of a street in Munich.
You can see there are obviously some casualties there on the street. Emergency services are at hand tending to those in need. Clearly there are
people suffering from some severe injuries as a result of this shooting spree, shooting rampage.
This is of course coming to us, again, from amateur video, people who have filmed things on their phones. We should stress the police in Munich have
been urging the public not to post their own videos and pictures of police operations to social media.
Because of course this is still an unfolding terror incident, as we understand, and police will be trying their very best to try to find the
perpetrators, the attackers, and also to bring them in as well.
[15:20:00]I want to bring in Niklas Bauer (ph), a journalist with (inaudible) in Munich itself. Nicholas, thanks very much for joining us.
From where you are, your perspective on what's happening in the city.
NIKLAS BAUER, JOURNALIST, MUNICH, GERMANY (via telephone): It's grown a bit quieter. For two hours they've been firing nonstop. It's grown
quieter. Police are still asking people not to go outside. Some people are staying at home, some are at restaurants and so on.
The streets are mostly empty and there are no updates on the suspect. So there's probably according to eyewitnesses three of them. Police at the
moment have no indication where they are.
JONES: Was Munich prepared for anything like this to happen?
BAUER: Well, I think over the last years people were expecting things like this to happen in Munich because it's a major city in Germany. Yes, I
think on the whole you can say Munich was as prepared as you can be, probably.
JONES: This is a city of course of 1.5 million people, I believe and of course people in Munich and across Germany would have been seeing all the
incidents taking place across Europe and America as well over the course of the last couple of months.
Niklas, if I can ask you to stand by just for one moment. We have a press conference, I understand, from German police which I'm hoping we can bring
you live. Let's listen in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): -- it's too early to say. The priority we have is to establish what happened there at the location and
then we need to identify the five persons killed. So this is a terror situation, we have terrorism.
If someone used a rifle, and that was the first report at the shopping center, if somebody takes a rifle into the shopping center, and I think
about what happened in Europe, so we need to assume the worst case. Yes, rifles were mentioned when we got the emergency calls.
How many police officers forces do you have? Many, many. That's what I can say. They come from the area of Munich. But if we have such
situations, we also can have a strengthening of the forces really quickly because of the neighboring areas. So we have sufficient police officers in
the city.
What about the perpetrators? We believe there are three perpetrators. We have contradicting information but up to three, they are still at large.
Can you tell us something about the rifles? A long weapon, that means it's a longer than a pistol. So it is something like a rifle. Where are you
looking for these perpetrators?
Are you looking just for them in Munich? We are really quickly, so we assume they are still in Munich and we have had alerts in other areas.
Do you have any other information about the shooting? This important information and we hope everybody will share information with us. And we
will have an upload portal for our criminal investigation department in order to get more information.
Why did you cordon off everything? It's one of our measures taken and we want to make sure the inhabitants are secure. The police confirmed that
five persons have been killed.
We have information that all the clinics in Munich are on alert because you do not know how many injured persons may have to go to hospitals. There is
one 30-year-old seriously injured person. He was shot into his head and he was taken to the clinic and in the meantime he died.
[15:25:02]We have information that in Central Munich, some of the restaurants have closed. For example, (inaudible), all customers have left
it and also (inaudible) closed their doors at 8:00 p.m.
So no more guests in the (inaudible) since 9:00 p.m. A lot of restaurants have been closed. Obama also offered his support to Germany, (inaudible).
JONES: OK. We've just been listening to a police spokesman in Munich, updating the waiting media on the situation in the city right now. Let me
recap what we just heard from him.
He said that they have to assume the worst, that when they first got the calls of an incident taking place, they understood that rifles had been
used, he said long rifles, longer than a pistol.
There are three perpetrators, at least three perpetrators, who they believe were involved in a series of attacks across the city. Those three are
still at large.
And he went on to say we assume they are still in Munich given the speed of the police operation in the immediate aftermath of this shooting rampage,
however there are still alerts in other areas as well.
When asked why they cordoned off the area around the Olympia Shopping Center, he said it was to keep the local residents safe as well. And he
confirmed then as well that five people are known to have been killed.
There are others seriously injured. One of those who we know has lost his life was shot in the head and then died from those injuries in hospital.
A confirmation of the situation in the city right now is that many restaurants and public spaces have closed, indeed the transport network
around the city has been shut down.
We've just heard from President Obama as well that he has offered his support and the police spokesman confirmed that had been the case.
Let's go to CNN's terrorism analyst, Paul Cruickshank now. He is following all the developments in Munich from Washington for us.
Paul, from what we're hearing from the police spokesman, they say they got off the ground quite quickly and managed to get a grip on the situation,
but it's still unfolding and these perpetrators are still at large.
PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Hannah, yes, it's all very, very unclear at the moment. But they think up to three attackers, they said in
that press conference. That's different, up to three attackers, they're saying, who were still at large, could still be dangerous in the minutes
and hours ahead in Munich.
From their investigations so far, it's looking to them like a terrorist attack. If this is indeed is a terrorism attack, it would be the deadliest
terrorism attack in Germany since 9/11.
The only other deadly attack coming in 2011 when two U.S. servicemen were killed outside Frankfurt Airport. I can tell you in just the last few days
there's been a lot of concern in German intelligence agencies that ISIS are increasingly pivoting towards attacking Germany, there's been a lot of
chatter about that.
They've detected ISIS reaching out to people in Germany and Europe, trying to encourage them to launch attacks, because they are hurting in Syria,
Iraq, and Libya, they are losing ground in those countries so they've wanted to launch attacks to change the topic of the conversation and push
back and retaliate against the west.
There being more than 800 German nationals who have traveled to Syria, many of them joining with ISIS. About a third of them are believed to have
returned to Germany. There's also been some concern about the more than million refugees that have come to Germany in the last year.
There have been indications when it comes to about 300 to 400 individuals of some form of radicalization. But when they've actually investigated,
many of those cases turned out to be unsubstantiated.
But just the other day, we saw an ax attack in Southern Germany from somebody claiming to be acting on behalf of the Islamic State, attacking
commuters on a train in Southern Germany, injuring several.
The energy in the jihadi system is on the rise in Germany. We'll have to see whether this is some kind of ISIS directed or inspired attack.
JONES: Paul, in terms of the channels of communications between ISIS central control, if you like, and their jihadi recruits, how does that work
exactly?
CRUICKSHANK: Well, they've got several ways of reaching out. And one of the things they've been doing is using encryption apps, apps like Shore
Spot, Telegram, to communicate securely with encryption with followers back in the west.
Sometimes it's German ISIS operatives or European western is operatives, who are actually communicating with people they know back in
the west. And what they've been trying to do over the last weeks and months is to encourage people to launch attacks, to groom them.
And I can tell you that just in the past few days in Germany, they've received indications that ISIS is making an even bigger concerted
attempt to encourage these kind of attacks.
What they've also been doing, the intelligence suggests, is trying to persuade those German recruits, hundreds of Germans having joined the
ranks of ISIS, trying to persuade them to come back to Europe to launch attacks.
They've found it easier so far to persuade Belgians and French who have been recruited into the group. More difficult to persuade some of
these Germans who have not been so willing to come home and launch attacks.
We'll have to see whether this is them being successful. Obviously very, very early stages in the investigation. We just don't know who these
gunmen are at this point.
JONES: Paul, one other question for you. They talked there about rifles being used, long rifles. Does that surprise you at all, that those sort of
weapons are being used?
CRUICKSHANK: Well, we'll have to see what kind of weapons they are. In the ISIS-directed plots, the most serious plots, the one we saw in Paris,
for example, they had Kalashnikovs, powerful assault weapons. Not clear whether these are those kind of weapons, perhaps less powerful weapons used
in this case.
If we start to hear about something Kalashnikov being used, you would start thinking more about whether ISIS was perhaps responsible for
this.
Given the track record in previous plots of them using those kinds of weapons and having the ability to source those kind of weapons in
Europe, not easy to do, but by no means impossible to buy Kalashnikovs on the black market.
So far, not much about these type of weapons beyond that these were just long rifles. That could just be a hunting rifle for all we know.
We'll have to hear more details before we make a judgment on that.
JONES: Paul Cruickshank, we appreciate it. Thanks very much indeed.
Some news on this story from Facebook in connection with the ongoing situation in Munich. The social media site has turned on its safety check
function after the shooting spree across Munich. The function has been used in the past, including in the attack in Nice just last week as well.
I want to bring back Niklas Nau (ph), a journalist with (inaudible) in Munich. Niklas, we were talking to you just before that police press
conference that we were listening into.
In that press conference, the police spokesperson said that this is a terrorist situation, but I understand that he has gone on to say that
there is no indication as yet of any Islamist terror.
As a journalist working in Munich, are you alarmed, surprised, or were you expecting this sort of terror attack to happen in this city?
NIKLAS NAU, JOURNALIST, MUNICH, GERMANY (via telephone): Well, I think, as I was saying before, Munich is a big city in Germany. And so naturally it
is a target of interest for the so-called Islamic State or for any other terrorist group.
So I'm not particularly surprised, but I think we have to wait and see because only now police are talking about a terror attack. Only
minutes ago, we were still talking about possible a mock incident. We'll have to see and wait what the actual connection turns out to be.
JONES: Niklas, while we're on the line, we've had it confirmed that there are six people dead in this shooting attack across Munich --
NAU: Yes.
JONES: -- that number may indeed rise as well. We understand some people may have suffered horrific injuries as well across the city. One police
spokesman speaking in the last few minutes said someone had been shot in the head and he or she indeed died in hospital as a result of those wounds.
They've been telling us that they have to assume the worst, but they don't know yet whether this is an ISIS-related attack or series of attacks.
And in terms of terror cells operating throughout Germany, how much knowledge was there of that?
[15:35:01]Do you suspect this could be a lone wolf attacker, if you like, or perhaps a couple of people, or is this a something that's a concern in
cities across the country now?
NAU: I think at this point it's futile to speculate about this particular incident, but I think in general you can say that Germany or the German
Security Services are indeed quite concerned about cells and coordinated attacks, and B, of course, what the Islamic State is also trying to do.
People are just inspired by their various propaganda channels and act on their own. In this case, we'll just have to wait and see what this
is or if there's any connection at all.
JONES: What's the mood like in the city at the moment? Can you get any sense? I know that social media is rife with lots of comment and video and
pictures as well of what happened and the aftermath of it. But we understand that restaurants are closed, that people are, of course, being
told to avoid public spaces. Does this very much feel like a city that's at war at the moment?
NAU: I think "at war" is not the term I would use. But what I'm hearing from police is that the streets are quite empty, that people are indeed
keeping to the advice police are giving and are staying inside.
There's a Twitter #opendoors, people are offering their doors to people on the streets who have no way of getting home. Because as you
know, the entire transport system in the city is locked down. There is no trains, no buses, no subway running.
JONES: Niklas Nau, a journalist there live for us on the line from Munich, thank you very much indeed.
For those viewers who are tuning into us here at CNN London, I want to bring you the very latest now on this breaking news. Police say the
shootings in Munich, quote, "look like a terror attack."
They say up to three gunmen were involved. And those three are still on the loose, on the run, believed to still be in and around the city
of Munich only because police got to grips with this incident so quickly.
It's unlikely that they've got much further outside of the city borders. A police spokesman has just updated the death toll and saying
that at the moment six people were confirmed to have lost their lives.
Police say one shooting took place at a fast food restaurant at the Olympia Shopping Center, that's in the north of Munich. Witnesses say
gunfire broke out inside that shopping center as well.
Police have been asking everyone to stay away from public places. The National Rail Network has been shut down. The metro has been closed as
well, buses. The entire city's transport network is effectively on lockdown and people have been told to stay at home, and if they're not at
home, they should seek shelter.
Also police urging people not to post pictures or indeed any video from the crime scene. This is an ongoing operation. There are a huge
number of armed police officers out on the streets at the moment, trying to find the perpetrators, at least three of them, up to three of them, I
should say.
And so as a result, they don't want any footage at all of their operation going on social media, which might actually aid the perpetrators
in their quest for freedom. We'll take a look at the latest video into us at CNN, take a listen.
(VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: You can hear there a verbal exchange in this video. This is a video that's posted onto the social media site, Twitter. There's many on
top of what looks like a parking lot, and a group on what looks like a rooftop. The two groups are seemingly shouting at each other.
CNN does have a translation that says at least in part that the individual, the man, says, "I'm a German." and the group shouts, "He has a
loaded gun. You are a jerk-off," that's to the man.
To be totally transparent, we do not know who the man dressed in black is, but certainly this is second in the immediate aftermath of the
shooting rampage in Munich, and a very heated verbal exchange taking place on top of the parking lot.
And the man in question, the man dressed in black, saying "I'm a German." There will be much speculation now if indeed this man is involved
in any way, as to whether we are dealing with a domestic terrorism incident as opposed to jihadis or the like coming from elsewhere into Germany to
raise terror on the streets of Munich.
[15:40:04]Joining me on the phone is CNN's intelligence and security analyst, Bob Baer. Bob, just explain to us what law enforcement there in
Munich will be doing right now based on what we know.
BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST (via telephone): Well, I think the problem is they haven't been able to identify the shooters and
what's concerning them is that they will sneak out in the crowd, rushing out.
The first tapes I heard, you have the Germans yelling, "Everybody run for it." It's such a confused situation for police that they have to
stop everybody. They certainly don't know how many casualties there are for sure, they're talking about five or six dead.
But if there's been multiple sites, it could go very much higher. Of course, we don't know, they're calling it terrorism. I would be
surprised if it's right-wing terrorism, simply because there's no intelligence this was coming.
And secondly, the Germans have warned about an Islamic State attack since the attack on the train. So these reports are very difficult to put
together at the beginning.
But if you had to make a guess, it looks like Islamic terrorism -- with all the casualties, multiple sites, hitting soft targets and the rest
of it.
JONES: Yes. Bobby, you mentioned them not knowing where the perpetrators are, and infiltrating crowds who don't know where to go themselves. We
talked to one eyewitness who while we were talking to her on the phone, was asked to move away from the shopping center where she had been for some
time, move away from there with her arms in the air.
I guess, as you were indicating just then, that this is just because the police simply don't know who is to blame here and who is just an
innocent bystander.
BAER: And they also have to think about suicide vests. You can't be sure that someone's going to walk into the police and blow themselves up.
And also the question of assaulting a mall on the part of police is very difficult, because you don't have the complete intelligence, you don't
have all the tapes, you don't know where the shooters are, multiple places to hide.
You know, normally, it would take you an entire day to set up for an assault, but they can't wait around for this because they have to assume
these people are suicide attackers. And then they've got to move in fast.
It's just a very, very dicey situation and the German police, there's no police in the world that's completely prepared to take back a
mall.
JONES: Bob, while we have you on the line as well, we were talking earlier to Paul Cruickshank who said intelligence over the last couple of days
would have indicated or perhaps indicated that there was this acute threat to Germany. Do you know any more about that?
BAER: Well, what we know is the Germans are very concerned about criminal groups bringing in weapons. The Islamic State has called on its followers
to attack German targets, soft targets.
And of course, there was the attack on the train with the hatchet, the young Afghan. And just the mood between refugees, German Muslims and
the German state has been very tense, just as it has been in France.
The harder the police crackdown and go after people, the more disaffected people become and the more people will answer the call of the
Islamic State.
And as we've been talking about for a long time, the Islamic State is becoming more dangerous internationally as it loses more territory in
Iraq and Syria.
We will see its followers lashing out and of course, we don't know whether that's the case here. But if you had to hazard a guess, I would
say that it is.
JONES: Bob Baer, we appreciate it. Thanks very much indeed.
I want to go now to CNN's Brian Todd. Brian, I understand you've spoken to an eyewitness in Munich who had a dramatic story to tell. Tell
us more.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT Right, Hannah. My producer's name is Dugal McConnell (ph). He speaks fluent German. He was able to reach a woman who
was a witness to the shooting, at least part of the shooting in the McDonald's restaurant, which is apparently just across the street from this
mall.
This woman whose name will only is Loretta (ph). We're only saying her first name right now due to concerns for her safety since we are told
by the police that the gunman or multiple gunmen may still be at large.
This woman was in the McDonald's, waiting for her son outside the men's bathroom, she says, when this man came out and started shooting. She
says her son actually saw the man loading his gun inside the bathroom. Here is a little bit of what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My son saw in the toilet the man loading his gun, it was a pistol. I come out of the toilet and I hear an alarm, killing the
children, they were doing nothing, they were sit to go eat, they can't run.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[15:45:02]TODD: So this woman who we call "Loretta" said she saw this gunman targeting children. She says that her 8-year-old son saw him
loading his gun in the bathroom, that it was a pistol, he came out and started shooting.
One other thing she told us was that she heard him yell "Allahu Akbar" and then she saw him shoot some people and then go out of the
restaurant and then across the street to the mall.
The video that we have been showing shows a man outside the McDonald's restaurant matching the description that she gave us. She said
he was a heavyset man wearing dark clothing and with some kind of an orange backpack or strap-like thing on his shoulders.
She said that -- when we reached her she was hiding in a windowless store right next door to the McDonald's where she had taken her two
children, children ages 8 and 11 years old. Again, she said that she saw this man come out of the bathroom and start targeting children -- Hannah.
JONES: Brian, just the most horrendous accounts of what happened, especially for a young boy, an 8-year-old boy to witness anything like
that, hard to imagine how someone gets over it.
I guess one thing that I picked out from what she said to you is that he reloaded a pistol. And what we've been hearing so far is that they
have been long rifles that have been used in these attacks.
TODD: That's right, Hannah. We have heard that from the police that they believe there were rifles involved, possibly long rifles. Again, some of
these accounts we've been getting still very fluid at this hour.
They say there are up to three perpetrators. So that doesn't necessarily mean there are three, there may be three or fewer than three.
Maybe this man was the only perpetrator, we don't know.
In that video, though, you know, for those couple of seconds that you see the man, he seems to raise his arm, and it looks like he has
something that appears to be a handgun.
He seems to be steading his arm with one hand and firing with another. Again, that what it appears like in the video so that would mesh
with what this woman said, that this gunman might have been using just a pistol.
But again, these accounts are very fluid and we need to get some final information from the police. That may not come for several hours.
JONES: Brian, we appreciate you bringing us that eyewitness account of what happened there in the shopping center. Thanks very much indeed, Brian
Todd.
I want to bring in Matthew Karnitschnig now. He is the "Politico's" chief Europe correspondent. He's been commenting on the events in Munich
over the course of the last couple of hours for us.
Matthew, it looks like now a series of coordinated attacks, up to three perpetrators, we believe, and six people now confirmed dead, and
presumably from the weapons that these people have been carrying and using. We can expect that number of dead to rise.
MATTHEW KARNITSCHNIG, CHIEF EUROPEAN CORRESPONDENT, "POLITICO" (via telephone): That's certainly the fear and for now, Munich is still on
lockdown. I just spoke with someone who has a relative in the center of town, on one of the main squares in town. He's holed up in a store there.
He's not been allowed to leave.
The police are in front of the door, and there appears to be some kind of incident going on there as well. So everybody is still very much
on edge in Munich, as the police try to figure out how widespread this attack is, how many attackers there are.
But so far, all we know is that there are six dead. And as just mentioned, there was the video of the attacker in front of the McDonald's
in the north of Munich who was clearly shooting with a pistol and not with a long rifle as had previously been reported.
JONES: Matthew, you're there in berlin, in the capital at the moment. What kind of response have we had from the German government and the
Chancellor Angela Merkel?
KARNITSCHNIG: Well, so far we haven't heard very much. I think that they're very much waiting to see what happens in Munich, how this plays
out. It hasn't really been much from the federal government so far.
I think that they are concentrating on ending the attack in Munich for now. But we should hear something in the next couple of hours, from
what I understand.
But because this is an ongoing situation, they haven't really said much beyond the fact that they're trying to bring it under control, and
that the local police, not just the local police, but the special police commando known as the GSG-9 in Germany, which is a special forces unit of
the German police, an anti-terror unit, if you will, is there and is active.
JONES: Many people watching this from outside of Germany will be unclear as to the weapons that have been used and how easy or difficult it is to
get hold of a firearm in Germany. For an average person, is it difficult? What are the gun laws like in Germany?
[15:50:11]KARNITSCHNIG: Well, certainly for an average German citizen, if you go through a course and if you're a hunter, you can get a weapon once
you pass the relevant test. It's certainly not like it is in the U.S. You can't just walk into a store and buy a weapon.
But again, if you're a German citizen and if you can prove you have received the proper certification, you certainly can get a firearm. But
there are restrictions on where you can carry it and what you can do with the ammunition and so on.
There are fairly strict laws. That said, for most people who show that they do not have psychological problems or a criminal record, you
know, problems in their background that would give the police pause, it's certainly possible to get firearms.
JONES: Matthew Karnitschnig, we very much appreciate it, live on the line from Berlin with "Politico." Thanks very much indeed.
As we've been covering the story here at CNN, we've also been telling you about social media and the role it's been playing in the
aftermath of this shooting rampage across the city of Munich.
We've been from Munich residents who have been offering up shelter to those affected by all of these attacks as well. Of course, the police
have told people to stay at home if they are at home or if they're on the streets, they should seek shelter as well.
We're just showing you some tweets now that have been trending on Twitter. #prayformunich is trending. We've also seen #opendoor as well,
people saying come to us if you're seeking shelter within the city of Munich at the moment.
Of course, people have been told not to gather in large public places. So the latest tweets we're showing you now, #prayformunich is now
trending on Twitter, as is #opendoor as well.
I want to update you now with the situation as things stand right now, this evening, in Munich. Police say the shootings in that city look
like a terror attack. That unconfirmed, though, at the moment.
They say up to three gunmen were involved, and those three are still on the loose, potentially in and around the city of Munich. A police
spokesman just in the last half hour has updated the death toll, saying six people are dead.
We have some gruesome images as well, or an idea of the number of injured as well, saying one of those six was shot in the head. We
understand that long rifles and indeed pistols perhaps as well have been used by the perpetrators in these locations across the city.
Police say one of the shootings, what we believe to be the first shooting, took place at a fast food restaurant. This is at the Olympia
Shopping Center in the north of Munich. Witnesses say gunfire broke out in the mall.
Brian Todd talked to one eyewitness who said her 8-year-old son saw one of the attackers reload a pistol in the bathroom and go out into the
shopping center and murder people.
Police are asking everyone, as I said, to stay away from public places. The city's transport network has been shut down. They're also
urging people not to post their pictures or indeed their videos from the crime scene as this is still an ongoing situation, and police obviously
don't want to assist or aid the perpetrators in any way, shape, or form, if they are indeed at large in and around the city.
More new video, CNN affiliate NTV has aired this amateur video showing the inside of the Olympia Shopping Center at the time of the
attack. It was at about 6:00 local time, 6:00 p.m. on a Friday evening.
The shopping center itself would have been very busy, apparently was popular with tourists and locals alike. You can see people there running
outside of that shopping center as the gunfire presumably has just been heard.
We understood that just in the last half hour, that shopping center had still not been completely evacuated. There were staff who were still
inside the shopping center several hours after the attack.
You can see the terror, the frightening situation as people just run for their lives outside of the Olympia Shopping Center in northern Munich
as that gunfire was heard throughout.
We've also been hearing from the U.S. president, Barack Obama, on these shootings in Munich, in the last half hour or so. This is what he
had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Some of you are aware there were shootings in Germany. We don't yet know exactly what
happens happening there. But obviously our hearts go out to those who may have been injured.
[15:55:03]It's still an active situation. And Germany is one of our closest allies, so we are going to pledge all the support that they may
need in dealing with these circumstances.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: President Obama speaking there in response to the unfolding situation in Munich this evening.
CNN's U.S. national security analyst, Juliette Kayyem, joins us on the line from Boston. Juliette, good to talk to you again. We understand
from police this is indeed an acute terror threat, they're not saying at the moment whether this is an Islamist terror threat. Your reaction?
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: The police have affirmatively excluded no group. That is relevant to anyone who wants this
investigation to be done thoroughly and in a meaningful manner. My belief is that they must have pictures, that they have enough eyewitness accounts.
There is a reason why we're not hearing what group they think it is yet. We are also, just to give them the benefit of the doubt, this is
ongoing. I mean, the mass transit is still closed. People are still being told to shelter in place.
We know that terrorist organizations don't just do a single attack, they do multiple ones. So in an hour or two, I think that soon, we'll then
be able to exclude potential motives. I know -- look, ISIL has been very active.
There is a high likelihood it is. I just find it interesting and worthy for your viewers to know that the Germans have not excluded
potential other groups, especially since we now know or at least have some eyewitness accounts that this was a handgun and not heavy military
artillery.
JONES: Yes, interesting that you said that. Brian Todd was telling us before that one eyewitness said there was potentially a pistol used and
that her 8-year-old son had seen someone actually reload a pistol in the bathroom and then go out into that McDonald's restaurant inside the
shopping center and open fire on innocent civilians.
What do you make of the idea of pistols being used and these long rifles as well? We don't know what kind of rifle. Is that standard
amongst Islamist warfare?
KAYYEM: Yes, it absolutely is, but Germany is not America. In terms of access to weaponry including high military grade weaponry, it was just not
America. America has a proliferation of that kind of military guns that individuals have.
So I wasn't surprised to hear at least some eyewitness accounts that this was a handgun. They're not easily accessible in Germany, but they are
more accessible.
If we learn it's more heavy artillery or more heavy weaponry, one would have to believe it was brought into Germany by those who may be
trained abroad.
Right now, look, the sort of pool of likely scenarios are ISIS- directed, ISIS-inspired, or a third option. The German police have not excluded another option.
So while it's hard to wait, especially those living in fear and those concerned for their country, it's important that we do, because we
want the German officials to get this right.
There are perpetrators still on the loose. If they think they're looking for one thing, they might miss the real culprits.
JONES: Is this a failure of intelligence, though? Especially given the fact that it was just a couple of days ago that we saw this attack on a
train attack and four people have very seriously injured in that attack.
KAYYEM: Yes, so you have some of your other analysts saying, you know, Germany like France like Britain, like most of Europe, is on high alert.
They are seeing increases in chatter that is a direct response to what's happening to ISIS in Syria and Iraq.
I don't call it a failure, however, because as we now know, unfortunately, if this is an ISIS-inspired attack, it's very difficult in
terms of stopping these attacks to fortify soft targets like a shopping mall.
These are -- they're infinite in Germany and America and France. And so, you know, what we do know, the good news is, is that German
response likely saved many lives, in terms of that strong police presence, closing mass transit, the communications with the citizens, which is really
important.
I think there's pieces to learn out of this, but until we know who the perpetrators are, it's hard to say. Obviously it's a failure. It's
hard to say, though, what can be learned from it.
JONES: Juliette, we have to leave it there. Juliette Kayyem, we very much appreciate it. Thanks very much indeed.
If you're just joining us here on CNN, this is the breaking news story we've been covering for the last couple of hours from Munich. We
understand that up to three perpetrators are still at large, at least six people have been confirmed to have died in this shooting, which began at
the Olympia Shopping Center in the north of the city.
This breaking news will continue with my colleague, Jake Tapper, who have plenty more and you stay with us right here on CNN.
END
