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Hala Gorani Tonight
White House: Vote On Health Care Bill Tomorrow Morning; Vigil For Victims Of Attack Held In Central London; London Mayor: Our Police Make This City Safe; Police Name London Attacker As Khalid Masood; Eight People Arrested In Anti-Terror Raids. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired March 23, 2017 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:00]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think you can have a vote on this tomorrow?
REPRESENTATIVE MARK MEADOWS (R), FREEDOM CAUCUS CHAIRMAN: I can tell you, as soon as I get done here, I'm making a call to Tom McArthur and trying to
reach out to some of the Tuesday group. I think it's important for me to understand where they're coming from. I would love to see 237 votes on the
House side, and certainly would welcome any Democrats that would come across as well. But in this, we are not there at this particular point.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is the speaker being unhelpful?
MEADOWS: No, no, I'm not -- I talked to the speech this morning and so, I think the speaker has a very difficult task of trying to assemble 215 or 16
votes and when you look at that, they are working very hard to try to get this done. And so, that being said, there are a number of negotiations
that are going on only at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, but on Capitol Hill, as we speak, so hopefully we will be able to find some --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You basically have veto power over this, don't you?
MEADOWS: No, I don't have any veto power. I have one vote and my voting card has my picture on it, but it doesn't belong to me, it belongs to the
people of Western North Carolina. So, truly, that is what motivates me --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can the president and speaker pass this without your support?
MEADOWS: Again, I'm one vote. I can tell you at this point, we are trying to get another 30 to 40 votes that are currently in the "no" category to
"yes." Once we do that, I think we can move forward with passing it on the House floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Congressman, do you agree with some of your colleagues voting for the bill in its current form would be doing worse than doing
nothing about Obamacare?
MEADOWS: You know, I think at this point, some of the provisions in here do not lower health care costs enough. Certainly for my constituents and
so as we look at that, I think we've got to make sure that it lowers health care costs and even with --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would it be worse than doing nothing?
MEADOWS: Even with the CBO -- here's the problem with doing nothing. I don't believe that's an option, because I always have talked to people,
businesspeople that have had the tough opportunity of seeing their health care premiums go up 30, 35 percent, and another 30 percent in North
Carolina this year. And when you look at that, Obamacare is not sustainable and so to suggest that it can be around -- I don't see that
happening.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible).
MEADOWS: Well, Mike Canon is certainly a very learned individual when it comes to health care.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Congressman, are you still a "no"?
MEADOWS: I am still a no at this time. I'm desperately trying to get to yes and I think the president knows that. I told him that personally. And
I can say, with all the Freedom Caucus, they are really right to get to yes. That's why we met for such a long time. It was at times a non-
contentious, but I would say, very rigorous debate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What changed between last night and right now --
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: All right, you've been watching special coverage of the health care bill debate in Washington.
Representative Meadows there is updating reporters. A signature legislation bill there of Donald Trump. The vote, in fact, won't happen
today but tomorrow. We'll bring you the latest from Capitol Hill when we have it. But first, let's break away for the other important breaking news
from London we're following. Stay with us.
I am Hala Gorani live from near London's Houses of Parliament, where a scene of terror unfolded yesterday afternoon. We begin this hour with the
very latest details and do we have some significant updates today.
Police say the attack was carried out by Khalid Masood, 52 years old, a man born in the United Kingdom, a Briton. Masood had a criminal record, but no
terror-related convictions. By the way, his convictions were about 15 years ago.
Police arrested eight people. They carried out raids at addresses linked to the London attack and we have learned more about the victims, as well.
Those unfortunate people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
In addition to Police Officer Keith Palmer, American tourist, Kurt Cochran (ph), and British teacher, Aysha Frade, were killed. Londoners came
together tonight for a candlelight vigil in honor of the victims.
Let's cross to Trafalgar Square now. CNN's Erin McLaughlin is there. We heard, Erin, from the mayor of London. Tell us more.
ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hala, thousands of people from across the capital of all ages and faiths gathered here at Trafalgar Square, a
symbol of democracy for a vigil that was emotional, a vigil that was powerful. They lit candles. There was a moment of silence. The people
were here to remember the lives lost yesterday, to express sympathy for their loved ones and to send a message. Take a listen to what London Mayor
Sadiq Khan had to say?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[16:05:07]SADIQ KHAN, MAYOR OF LONDON: We come together as Londoners tonight to remember those who have lost their lives and all of those
affected by the horrific attack yesterday, but also to send a clear message. Londoners will never be cowed by terrorism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCLAUGHLIN: We also heard from the acting police commissioner, who said that we can't change what happened yesterday, but we can choose how we
react and that London must stand together.
GORANI: All right. I briefly mentioned the names of the victims, we've been learning. Tell us more about them.
MCLAUGHLIN: That's right. One of the victims' name was Kurt Cochran. He was here with his wife. He was from Utah. He was here on holiday,
celebrating his 25th wedding anniversary. His wife, Melissa, badly injured in the attack.
We also know the deceased police officer, Keith Palmer, who was stabbed to death by the suspect and then Aysha Frade, a British national who had been
working at a high school nearby. All lives lost.
But also victims injured, some 11 nationalities and British foreign secretary making the point that this may have been an attack against
London, but it was also an attack against the world. And London, tonight, responding, upholding its values of openness and inclusion -- Hala.
GORANI: Thanks very much, Erin, at Trafalgar Square. Just a few hours ago, we heard from the mayor and others as well. A vigil organized for the
victims in honor of the victims, and also to present a sort of defiant face, the face of London, as terrorists the try to attack this city and
attack his diversity.
Earlier today, Mr. Khan spoke to CNN, paying tribute to Keith Palmer, the police officer who was killed. He also emphasized that London is and will
remain a safe city. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KHAN: One of the reasons I can say that London is the safest global city in the world or one of the safest cities in the world is because there are
literally tens and thousands of Keith Palmers keeping our cities safe, working with members of the public who provide intelligence and
information, working with our security services.
You will see over the next few days an increased number of armed and unarmed officers across London. You will see some change around some of
the buildings with bollards being put in place, but we are a very safe city.
The intelligence we have is that this was an attack from a lone attacker, a lone terrorist trying to destroy our way of life, trying to divide our
communities, trying to kill as many people as possible and injure as many people as possible.
And one of the reasons why few people were killed, few people were injured, is because of the bravery of our police service, the bravery of our
emergency services, and because we've practiced and prepared for events such as this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, one of those who attended the vigil a short time ago is Tom Copley, he is a member of the London assembly and he joins me now live.
What was it like being there? It was obviously quickly organized. I mean, within 24 hours, London came together and you know, showed a certain
defiance really in the face of terror, didn't it?
TOM COPLEY, MEMBER OF LONDON ASSEMBLY: Well, first and foremost, this was about paying tribute to the victims and sending our condolences to their
families and friends. But yes, it was also about presenting, about saying that London is united against these horrific acts of terrorism and we will
not be divided. London is a city, I think I'm right in saying, we have more languages spoken than any other place on earth. We are a united city
and won't let hatred tear us to pieces.
GORANI: And because one of the important aspects of this for our international viewers is that so many people who were hurt and killed were
non-British people because they were tourists on the bridge.
COPLEY: Absolutely, there were people from all over the world who are affected and families all over the world who have been affected. And our
message is that this is not going to change. Londoners went about our lives today, as normal. Yes, we are more vigilant because of what
happened. But we are not going to change our way of life because of this act of terror and act of hate.
GORANI: Would you say people who -- you know, the same thing happened with Paris. Paris has suffered a drop in tourism. Brussels had also major
issues, Nice as well. People might say, now it's London that's unsafe.
COPLEY: I think it's not quite the right time to be talking about tourism yet, but you know, our message and the mayor's message is very clear.
GORANI: The safety of the city is perfectly a legitimate question, isn't it?
COPLEY: Absolutely. London is open, and obviously there will be a review of what has happened. We will look at our security procedures and things
like that. But, you know, we are not going to change our way of life, because of this awful, horrific action.
[16:10:09]GORANI: What needs to happen, though? I mean, there are those who will say, don't change your way of life, don't put up more barricades,
and then there are those who will say, we live in a kind of world where we need to put up more barricades. We need those cinder blocks on Westminster
Bridge. What's your position on what should be done?
COPLEY: Well, I think whatever we do has to be proportionate, obviously, there will be a review. We will look at security, but you know, we don't
want to go to one extreme. We have to have a step back, look at what's taken place, and look at what needs to be put in place in order to combat
any future acts.
And let's remember, as well, the security services in this country have prevented 13 acts of terrorism in recent years. So, you know, our security
services are doing a very good job. Obviously, we need to look at what they might need to do in addition in the future.
GORANI: I mean, 13 foiled attacks, that's a huge number of attacks. What do you think is at the heart, what do you think motivates some of these
individuals to commit these atrocities? This is really mass murder.
COPLEY: I think at the heart of it is hate and if you look at what happened last year to our Member of Parliament, Jo Cox, who was killed by a
neo-Nazi, that was an act of terrorism, what motivated her killer, what motivated the killer yesterday, at the heart of it was hate and seeking to
cause divisions.
It is two sides of the same coin. One was a neo-Nazi, one may have been a radical Islamist. Either way, it's motivated by hatred and hatred of what
we stand for and what London stands for.
GORANI: All right, Tom Copley, thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate your time. Of course, as Tom Copley was saying, they're paying
tribute to the victims. Lawmakers did something quite similar. They gathered as well, in defiance in the Houses of Parliament. They sat, as
planned, at the time that was scheduled to remember those killed and injured in Wednesday's attack.
That includes Keith Palmer, the unarmed officer killed at the entrance to parliament. He served the Metropolitan Police for 15 years. One Member of
Parliament was brought to tears remembering his friend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES CLEVERLY, BRITISH MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: I would like to turn for just a moment to P.C. Keith Palmer, who I first met 25 years ago as Gunner
Keith Palmer. He was a strong, professional public servant and it was a delight to meet him hear again, only a few months after being elected.
Would my right honorable friend, the prime minister, in recognition of the work that he did and the other police officers and public servants here in
the House to consider recognizing his gallantry and sacrifice formally with a posthumous recognition?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: James Cleverly, a British Member of Parliament brought to tears by the death of his friend, the police officer, Keith Palmer, who was stabbed
to death by the attacker yesterday.
Let's review again just what we know about this attacker. Police have actually named him, Khalid Masood. Unusually, for an attack of this sort,
he's older, 52 years old, born in Kent, here in the United Kingdom.
He was known to police for a series of assault convictions and weapons possessions, but that's been a while, some in the '80s, others in the early
2000s so awhile back.
The lead counterterrorism officer in the U.K. believes Masood acted alone and a news agency linked to ISIS is calling the attacker a soldier of the
Islamic State, so they are claiming responsibility for these murders.
We're tracking the investigation from all angles. Our Phil Black joins me now from outside Scotland Yard, and Nic Robertson is in Birmingham
following a series of arrests in connection with the attack.
Phil, let's start with you and a little bit more on what police are saying about this named attacker now.
PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Hala. So we've learned more about what they know, but also crucially, what they say they didn't know. They
say they didn't have any intelligence that led them to believe that this attack was going to happen.
That this man, Khalid Masood, was not the subject of a current investigation, but he was certainly known to them, because as you've
touched on, he had this criminal record. This long, violent, criminal record with convictions for offenses such as assault and causing grievous
bodily harm and possessing offensive weapons.
And this criminal record stretches over a long period of time, from '83 to 2003. That most recently conviction was for possessing a knife. So, they
say that he was not convicted at any point for any sort of terrorism offense. So police knew him, but not for a long time.
More recently, it would seem, according to the Prime Minister Theresa May and her comments to the House of Commons today, MI5, the domestic security
service, they looked at Khalid Masood because of concern about possible extremism.
[16:15:10]She wasn't specific on time. She did say a number of years ago. She did say the investigation was historic and she described him as a
peripheral figure, not part of the current intelligence picture.
So what this all means, taking all of that together, we have a man who was a known convicted violent criminal, someone who, at some stage, was
suspected by the domestic security service, of having at least sympathy for extremism. But none of that was recent. And so, that is why no one saw
any of this coming -- Hala.
GORANI: And Nic Robertson in Birmingham, police are saying they believe he acted alone. So what are all these arrests about?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, the police aren't saying how the arrests are connected. What we do know is because police
have released some of the details of those arrests, eight people arrested across the day, seven of them were arrested in Birmingham, one arrested in
London.
Four people were arrested at the premises behind me, in the early hours of this morning. That was during a raid by armed police officers, they used a
battering ram to get in through the door. That was three men and one woman. All relatively young.
And another address in Birmingham, not far away, another two people were arrested, a young man and a young woman. Now, those two and the four here,
the six of them, police say are being held on suspicion of preparation to commit a terrorist act.
Now that doesn't mean that they were necessarily building a bomb. It may be that they were associated with some other sort of plotting. It might
have been in its early stages. This is quite a broad spectrum term that the police use.
However, we also know that the place that the vehicle was rented from, that was used in the attack, is just a mile from where we're standing. So we're
seeing a center of gravity, if you will, come this way to this part of Birmingham.
The police say that Khalid Masood lived in the West Midlands. That certainly includes Birmingham. Why these arrests, are they directly
connected to Khalid Masood? Are they connected to his attack rather than him?
It's just not clear at this time and it's not even clear if what precisely the nature of the police broad spectrum definition of why they're holding
him. It's not clear. The police are saying, there is a lot more investigation to do.
And as we've seen with these sorts of arrests in the past, it's quite possible that people arrested in the early stages will be questioned and
potentially let go unconnected -- Hala.
GORANI: We do see that quite often. Thanks very much, Nic Robertson in Birmingham. Phil Black is at Scotland Yard. We'll check some of the other
stories making news tonight after a short break, including a desperate scramble for votes. Can't seal the deal. We'll see why Republican leaders
in the House were forced to change plans on a bill to replace Obamacare.
And new details about the FBI's investigation into possible collusion between the Trump campaign team and Russia. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:20:40]
GORANI: Well, we'll get back to continuing coverage of the London terrorist attack in a moment. But first, a huge showdown in Washington,
D.C. over health care is dominating the headlines there.
A Republican source is telling CNN, there will be no vote today on that bill to replace Obamacare that the White House is pushing. The White House
and Republican leaders have been scrambling to get members of their own party onboard.
But confronted with the growing defection among the GOP, they were forced to delay a vote on one of President Trump's top legislative priorities.
Let's get the very latest now from Capitol Hill. CNN politics reporter, Tom LoBianco joins me now. So Tom, why the delay? Are they changing the
bill, what are they doing?
TOM LOBIANCO, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: -- between the moderate Republicans and conservative Republicans and it's kind of the metal level of all of
this, and what the White House Republican leadership have been trying to do is try to get enough conservatives onboard to support this thing.
The number that you're looking at is trying to get about 216 House Republicans to vote for this. That number does change a bit based on the
number of people who show up to this. And it looks right now based on all of our reporting that they are not at that point just yet.
But they think they're very close. So, there was a -- they had planned a vote for tonight. That was canceled. It's not going to happen. It could
happen tomorrow.
They're restarting that sort of informal process of getting to the vote and they're thinking in that additional time, another 24 hours will buy them
what they need to get to 216 votes.
GORANI: Right. What happens, though, even if they get to 216, Tom? Then it goes to the Senate? That's another uphill battle.
LOBIANCO: It is. You know, the funny thing is, there's a representative here from the state of Arizona, Trent Franks, and he's a very conservative
member of Congress and he likens this whole process to trying to pull a giraffe through a key hole.
And he says that you're not going to like what it looks like on the other side and it's kind of funny, because for major legislation and major
policy, that's just how it happens around here. That's just what you have to do.
By the time they get done with this on the House side, it's going to be pretty conservative. There are going to be more cuts to things like
Medicaid. There is going to be a more conservative version of the legislation.
In the Senate, however, you have more moderate Republicans. You have more moderates that you have to handle. So it will become more moderated when
it goes through the Senate. You know, a lot of hurdles. There are no guarantees that this happens, but that's how it would happen, if at all.
GORANI: Now, explain to me why on many issues, Republicans are backing the White House. I mean, the confirmation of cabinet secretaries, all of that
is happening along partisan lines. But on this bill, there's been opposition within the GOP. Why?
LOBIANCO: Well, there's a lot of thought among conservatives. If you talk with members of the House Freedom Caucus, the most conservative group, the
furthest right group within the House of Representatives, what they say is that they don't want the White House and House Speaker Paul Ryan and
Republicans acquiescing to moderates on this because they've been promising to their supporters a full real of Obamacare close to a decade now.
That is actually the seventh anniversary of the passage of Obamacare. The irony cannot be understated here and -- it cannot be overstated, rather.
So what they say is that this is their only chance to really do it the way that they've always promised.
From the other side, they say, look, the moderates say this and the house Republican leaders say this. You've got to be realistic. You have a lot
of Republicans who are in swing districts, districts they could lose in 2018.
That's the other big dynamic that they're dealing with here. A lot of them are worried about their jobs. They're worried about whether they get re-
elected. Remember that after Obamacare passed here in 2010, that was when the Republicans retook control of the House and it was largely on that
issue.
They knocked out a lot of moderate to conservative Democrats. So there's a big worry that the same thing could happen here, many just a year and a
half.
[16:25:06]GORANI: Yes. Tom LoBianco, thanks very much. As we mentioned a few times, the vote will not happen today. The debates surrounding this
legislation will pick up tomorrow morning, a vote potentially tomorrow. The White House trying to get to that magic 216 number.
Speaking of the White House, accusations have swirled for months, but CNN has now learned that the FBI could have evidence of coordination between
Donald Trump's campaign team and Russia. Not just communication, we're talking here coordination. Congressional committees are conducting similar
investigations. One Democrat says he has seen more than circumstantial evidence of collusion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you have seen direct evidence of collusion?
REPRESENTATIVE ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: I don't want to go into specifics, but I will say that there is evidence that is not circumstantial
and is very much worthy of investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Let's get all the details now on CNN's exclusive reporting. We're joined by Shimon Prokupecz. He broke the story for us along with Pamela
Brown and Evan Perez. All right, give us more insight into, first of all, we're talking about the FBI director. He testified before Congress. How
does this fit into what he potentially knew when he spoke about it Monday on Capitol Hill?
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: Well, all of this sort of fits in, in terms of when he came to the Hill, he would not give up a
lot of information. But we're told by officials that there is information that indicates associates of President Donald Trump communicated with
suspected Russian operatives to possibly coordinate the release of information damaging to Hillary Clinton's campaign.
When Comey made this announcement on Monday, about the -- before Congress, about this investigation, you know, we also learned that they are reviewing
other information, such as phone records, business records, and other various travel records, pertaining to the investigation.
They're relying on human intelligence. Other methods of sources. So that's sort of what the FBI is now working with, in sort of trying to
really determine if there was collusion and coordination by the folks surrounding Donald Trump.
GORANI: And do we know who, specifically, Shimon, is being investigated here?
PROKUPECZ: So we're not told by our sources who specifically is being investigated, but we know that people close to Trump, Carter Page, loose
ties to the campaign. We know Paul Manafort and other people who kind of were around the campaign, who may not have necessarily been working for the
campaign.
GORANI: All right, Shimon, thanks very much for the latest on CNN's exclusive reporting on the investigation into possible coordination between
the Trump campaign and Russia. We'll have a lot more on this story in the coming hours. Still ahead on THE WORLD RIGHT NOW --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THERESA MAY, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We are not afraid and our resolve will never waiver in the face of terrorism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: A message of strength from the British prime minister, as she confronts the deadliest terrorist attack to hit the U.K. in 12 years.
We'll be right back.
[16:31:04] HALA GORANI, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to Westminster, where this has been a day of emotion, of reflection, and defiance after the shock
of yesterday. Prime Minister Theresa May spoke to the House of Commons earlier, saying the country's liberties and freedoms would be undiminished,
she said, after Wednesday's attack, and that life will go on. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THERESA MAY, PRIME MINISTER OF THE UNITED KINGDOM: But the greatest response lies not in the words of politicians, but in the everyday actions
of ordinary people. For beyond these walls today, in scenes repeated in towns and cities across the country, millions of people are going about
their days and getting on with their lives. The streets are as busy as ever, the offices full, the coffee shops and cafes bustling.
As I speak, millions will be boarding trains and aeroplanes to travel to London and to see for themselves the greatest city on earth. It is in
these actions, millions of acts of normality, that we find the best response to terrorism. A response that denies our enemies their victory,
that refuses to let them win.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Let's take a closer look at the investigation into Wednesday's attacks. My next guest has a real depth of experience in British security
issues. Joining me now is Lord Admiral Allan West. He's a former U.K. minister for Security and Counterterrorism.
Thank you so much, sir, for joining us.
LORD ADMIRAL ALAN WEST, FORMER MINISTER FOR SECURITY AND COUNTERTERRORISM, UNITED KINGDOM: Good evening.
GORANI: We learned the identity of this attacker, 52 years old, a man born in the United Kingdom, much older than previous attackers in similar
situations across Europe. What do you make of that?
WEST: What is unusual for that age, I'm afraid that we discovered with seventh heaven (ph) that second and third generation people in this
country, who are British citizens, seem to be willing, if they get radicalized, to actually try and kill their own citizens. And that's
extremely unfortunate.
I mean, he's already been known to the security services, but you can't keep monitoring all of these people. Probably about 3,000 people are being
monitored as we speak. And when they get closer to some outrage, you've got at least 30 people monitoring each one, to make sure they're not aware
of the fact they're monitored, checking them up. It's a huge number of people.
GORANI: And I'm sure there's going to be a lot of soul searching because, obviously, you can't monitor everyone 24/7.
WEST: Yes.
GORANI: And maybe, you don't even want to do that in a free society. But here you have a man who was known, many years ago, he had some issues with
criminality. And then it emerges that police say he committed this act. So what to do, then?
WEST: Well, it's extremely difficult. But with this event, actually, I think that the British people should be very reassured.
GORANI: Yes.
WEST: What happened is, for example, the Palace of Westminster, which got a very shallow frontage, it's got defense in depth. The second line of
defense killed the man.
The speed the police reacted in terms of getting a mass of SWAT teams and other people there was quick enough so that if this had been the worst type
of attack -- the one we really fear is a Mumbai-style attack -- they got there so quickly, they would have been able stop massive killing if that
had happened, as well. In fact, this is just a lone person, so it wasn't that, but that was the fear.
And the speed that the police reacted, the way we actually protected the Palace, that should be very restoring. And any terrorist attack is very
sudden, it seems unexpected, it's always bloody. It --
GORANI: Do you think there should be more barriers around Westminster or - -
WEST: I absolutely don't.
GORANI: -- maybe even those cinder blocks on Westminster Bridge or something along those lines?
WEST: Well, I think what is very interesting is that because we've just had a huge scheme of putting cycle lanes in, we've actually opened up an
ability for cars to go very fast.
GORANI: Yes.
WEST: What we've tried to do in lots of places where there are secure buildings is insure nothing can build up speed to get there. And I think
they'll have to look at cycle lanes and things.
GORANI: Let me look into the future now. What do you think it will take? You know, France, Belgium. And in France, many, many attacks. It's been
the hardest hit in Europe.
What needs to be done longer term, really, for this threat to be truly controlled, in terms of the ISIS-inspired or ISIS-directed attacks?
WEST: Yes. Well, I think, in the long-term, clearly, you've got to change the whole, the whole way -- the culture, in a sense, their way of looking
at this. I mean, these people are -- they obviously feel they're not fully part of society.
[16:35:10] There's no doubt that there is a massive program, particularly by Daesh, on the web, to try and radicalize people. I mean, they have been
calling for people who support them in this country and in other countries now for at least four years -- I mean, I monitor these things -- to go out
to stab, or if you've got a gun, shoot, or use a lorry to kill police, soldiers, or the public. I mean, the part of that policy is to kill
members of the public.
GORANI: And I find interesting that you say that some people don't feel fully a member of society. And we're talking about people born, in the
case of this man, more than half a century ago in the United Kingdom. Where did the failure happen here --
WEST: Well, I think --
GORANI: -- do you think? And in similar cases?
WEST: Yes. I think that's what we've got to look at.
GORANI: Yes.
WEST: To see what has actually caused that. But as I said, I think we should be reassured by what happened there. We are in a world where there
is terrorism --
GORANI: But that's a security response.
WEST: Yes, yes.
GORANI: We're talking here about the root cause, which is a different thing altogether.
WEST: Yes. But I mean, if you look at any society, if you look at American society, you know, there are whole routes of people who feel --
they sort of feel disenfranchised even though they're not. They don't feel fully part of society.
Those people are ripe for other people to make them do dreadful things. It's happened in the past. You can see it happening. But that's what
we've got to work on.
GORANI: And it's not just Muslims. Then, you have Jo Cox who was murdered by a neo-Nazi sympathizer.
WEST: Absolutely. Absolutely.
GORANI: In the United States, you have young White men who go on killing rampages.
WEST: And you have the Omaha bomb.
GORANI: Exactly right. So, I mean, in a sense, I mean, it is a bit depressing to say, but identifying each and every potential attack is
virtually impossible.
WEST: It is. It is, I think, impossible. I think we've got to be quite positive about this. You know, we have been living now under a severe
threat for some five years. That means an attack is highly likely.
If you had been to see your heart surgeon today and he said, it's highly likely you're going to die tomorrow, you would be pretty focused, wouldn't
you?
GORANI: I sure would.
WEST: We are living in a situation where it's highly likely an attack will happen. There was no doubt an attack was going to happen.
GORANI: Yes.
WEST: This was not a surprise. There was going to be an attack at some stage.
GORANI: Last question, you talked about the root causes, you talked about the security perimeter, which is, essentially, response to an attack when
it unfolds. What about what's happening in the Middle East? I mean, because you need to solve the problem of ISIS there.
It's a draw. They direct some of these attacks. There are videos glorifying all of this murderous activity. So how do you address that?
WEST: Well, I think, militarily, we are now beginning to defeat Daesh. Of course, they have this great claim that, you know, they've formed a
caliphate.
GORANI: Yes.
WEST: We've actually started to defeat them and win that. And we will win that militarily, but that hasn't won then. They will go underground.
They'll be like al Qaeda.
I think the danger are some of the hard-core fighters who don't die, exactly where they go. Not many have come back to this country yet.
People have come back here, but a lot of them, they were sort of wide-eyed and thought they might help and things, and some are radicalized.
But the really deeply radicalized ones are people like some of the Chechens who went from Afghanistan to Iraq and then out there. Where will they go?
And that is a real worry globally. That is a real worry globally. And that is going to be the next problem in that aspect.
GORANI: Right, and, yes, because the conditions that created ISIS haven't been fixed either. So you have that aspect as well.
WEST: No. I mean, I think it will not remain in, you know, Mosul.
GORANI: Right.
WEST: And I think, Raqqa.
GORANI: Yes.
WEST: I mean, there's the whole issue of Syria, whether civil war, you know, is paused temporarily, but didn't go on and on.
GORANI: Yes.
WEST: But is that going underground again? And al Qaeda is still there. We think of al Qaeda as being finished, they are far from finished. And
instead of being focused in matter of Pakistan as a leadership, they splintered all over the world. So the ones in Yemen, the ones in Maghreb,
al Qaeda in the Maghreb --
GORANI: They're there.
WEST: -- you know, these groups are there and they're still very dangerous.
GORANI: And they're active as well. Lord Admiral Alan West, thanks so much for joining us.
WEST: Not at all.
GORANI: We really appreciate it. Now, we want to look at what drew this attacker that was identified by police to carry out such an act of extreme
violence and homegrown terrorism in the U.K.
I'm joined now, from Birmingham, by Steve Hewitt. He's a senior lecturer in American and Canadian Studies at the University of Birmingham.
Steve, talk to us specifically about Birmingham as a location and why it has some significance here in this context.
DR. STEVE HEWITT, SENIOR LECTURER IN AMERICAN AND CANADIAN STUDIES, UNIVERSITY OF BIRMINGHAM: Well, I mean, it's a bit ironic because just
over 10 years ago, I was standing in front of sort of cameras around various Birmingham locations because Birmingham was in the international
news because there had been the so-called beheading plot, whereby a group of men, local men, one in particular, plotted to kidnap a British Muslim
soldier. And they wanted to behead him, film it in the process, and put it up on the internet.
And that sort of brought Birmingham to international attention. And there have been arrests since then and various plots, but it goes back even
longer. I mean, you've had people that went off to fight in Kashmir decades ago.
[16:40:04] So, I mean, I think it needs to be pointed out there's just a small percentage of people, you know, involved in such activities. But
there has been some involvement in terrorism, international terrorism, in this area, for decades now.
GORANI: And, Steve, there have been arrests in and around Birmingham, as well. I mean, how are investigators now carrying out their search for
potential associates, accomplices? I mean, what's going on there, as far as the investigation, do you think?
HEWITT: Well, I mean, where I am right now, behind here is the flat where he was last living in. I mean, you know they're going through his
computers, they're going through his e-mails. They're looking at his phone.
They're kind of mapping out his whole life. Who did he associate with? What cafes did he go to? What bookstores? Those sorts of things.
Because, of course, they want to build up a profile of him to try to understand why he did what he did but also to look at whether anyone aided
him, whether anyone knew in advance that this was going to take place and then kept quiet about it. Whether, you know, God forbid, anyone else might
want to do a similar sort of attack. So this is a sort of rush at the moment to kind of track down these leads.
GORANI: But I keep focusing on his age, and only because I've covered literally every terrorist attack that's happened in Europe in the last 2
1/2 years.
HEWITT: Yes.
GORANI: And none of the attackers was ever over the age of about -- I think the oldest one might have been 34, but they're usually kind of more
the ringleader type. The actual attackers are in their 20s.
This guy is 52 years old. He's of the generation of the parents of the attacker. That's odd, isn't it?
HEWITT: I think that's one of the most interesting things to come out today. And I think you're right. I think you're right to point that out.
I mean, some of the studies of lone actor terrorists, if this is what he was, I think sort of the larger databases have put the average age in the
low 30s. And in some of the work I've done in a Canadian context have also had an average age in the low 30s.
So, obviously, an average means, you know, below and above, but this is way above that. I mean, that's really interesting because, of course, there
are programs to try to deradicalize people.
I'm someone who is 50 years old. And I think someone, once they get to their 50s, they're rather set in their ways. So for someone to do such a
rash action at that age, I mean, I think it sort of adds to the puzzle of who this person was and why he did what he did.
GORANI: Yes. It will be very interesting to learn more about his background and what might have motivated him, as we, of course, continue to
cover this tragic attack that left so many killed and injured.
Thanks, Steve Hewitt, joining us Birmingham.
The French President, Francois Hollande, says Belgian police have foiled a potential terrorist attack with striking similarities to Wednesday's London
assault. The Belgian prosecutor's office says police intercepted the French driver of this car. The man was driving at a very high rate of
speed towards a busy shopping area in central Antwerp.
President Hollande says the driver, was, quote, "looking to kill people and cause something dramatic." Knifes and a pellet-style gun were found in the
vehicle. Thankfully, that potential attack was prevented.
This is THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. Up next, an extraordinary turn of events in a congressional investigation into the Trump campaign's ties to Russia. A
Republican committee chairman takes evidence directly to Donald Trump, bypassing his colleagues.
And a high profile killing on the streets of Kiev, as former Russian lawmaker is gunned down. We will have the latest. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:46:07] GORANI: Much more ahead on the London terrorist attack. First, this story, though. The head of a powerful committee on Capitol Hill is
under fire for the way he handled sensitive information involving Donald Trump's transition team.
Instead of informing his committee when he came across the information, House Intelligence Chairman Devin Nunes took it instead to President Trump.
Nunes apologized to his committee today but still hasn't shown them in the information or revealed how he got it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Did this come from the White House? Did this information that you got came from the White House?
REP. DEVIN NUNES (R), CHAIRMAN, UNITED STATES HOUSE PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE: As you know, we have to keep our sources and
methods here very, very quiet. I've told the American public several times that we want to come to us, to bring us information if they have.
You know, over the course of this investigation, we've had many sources who have come to this committee. And, as you can imagine, many don't want you
to know, they don't want anyone to know, who they are. I mean, you guys in the press understand this. You have your own sources.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, Nunes is spearheading an investigation into the Trump campaign's ties to Russia. And critics are saying, well, he can no longer
be trusted to be impartial after this. Joe Johns tells us what the controversy is all about.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes stunning Washington.
NUNES: I thought it was important for the President to know this.
JOHNS (voice-over): Rushing to the White House to warn President Trump that communication involving members of his transition team may have been
picked up through normal, incidental surveillance, apparently, all legally conducted.
NUNES: It does appear his name and people and others ended up into intelligence reports. Most people would say that is surveillance.
JOHNS (voice-over): Nunes himself, a member of the President's transition team, under fire for going to the media before briefing Democratic members
of the House Intelligence Committee.
REP. JACKIE SPEIER (D), CALIFORNIA: Now, we can't have a presidential whisperer.
JOHNS (voice-over): The White House immediately seizing on Nunes' statements.
SEAN SPICER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There's a lot of questions that, I think, his statement raises.
JOHNS (voice-over): The top Democrat on the Intelligence Committee angrily responding to the Republican Chairman's actions for potentially
politicizing their bipartisan investigation into Russia's interference in the last election.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), RANKING MEMBER, UNITED STATES HOUSE PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE: The Chairman will need to decide whether he is
the chairman of an independent investigation into conduct which includes allegations of potential coordination between the Trump campaign and the
Russians, or he is going to act as a surrogate of the White House because he cannot do both.
JOHNS (voice-over): President Trump responding to the revelation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you feel vindicated by Chairman Nunes coming over here?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I somewhat do. I must tell you, I somewhat do. I very much appreciated the fact that they found what
they found.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNS: Late this morning, members of the Intelligence Committee said Chairman Nunes apologized to them for taking the information to the
President and to the news media before sharing it with the committee. They do say they expect to get that information on Friday. However, one
remaining question is where it came from in the first place.
Joe Johns, CNN, the White House.
GORANI: So many questions there. Now, to a high-profile killing on the streets of Kiev. A former Russian lawmaker and Putin critic, Denis
Voronenkov, has been shot dead in the streets and it's led to some fiery rhetoric between Ukraine and Russia.
CNN's Fred Pleitgen joins me now from Moscow with the details on this brazen killing. Tell us more.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, brazen killing is exactly right, Hala. It certainly was a shocking killing that
happened in broad daylight right in the center of Kiev, at the Palace Hotel, when Denis Voronenkov apparently went there with his bodyguard and
the killer was already waiting for him. Here's what we know.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[16:49:59] PLEITGEN (voice-over): Denis Voronenkov's wife, devastated after her husband, a Kremlin critic, was killed right in the heart of
Ukraine's capital. Police say the assassin waited for Voronenkov and his bodyguard in front of the hotel and opened fire once they arrive.
As a result of the shootout, one man was killed, Kiev police chief says. His bodyguard was wounded and the killer was also wounded. Both are in
hospitals and being given medical assistance. The killer later died in hospital. Ukrainian authorities saying he never regained consciousness.
Denis Voronenkov was a former member of Russia's communist party. He fled to Ukraine in 2016 and adopted Ukrainian citizenship. Though he denied it,
Voronenkov was charged in absentia by Russian authorities for alleged fraud in a real estate deal in February.
Highly critical of Vladimir Putin and Russia's annexation of Crimea, Voronenkov vowed never to be silent. Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko
quickly pointing the finger at the Kremlin, saying on his official Web site, "The insidious murder of Denis Voronenkov in the city center of Kiev
is an act of state terrorism by Russia, which he had to flee for political reasons."
Denis Voronenkov is not the first Kremlin critic mysteriously killed. In 2015, opposition leader Boris Nemtsov was gunned down in central Moscow.
Or the former agent, Alexander Litvinenko, who British authorities believe was poisoned with a radioactive substance in 2006. London pointing the
finger at Moscow, as well.
For its part, Russia points to recent political murders in Ukraine and calls the allegations against Moscow absurd. "It seems like Ukraine will
make everything so that no one will ever know the truth about what really happened today on March 23rd in Kiev," the spokeswoman for Russia's Foreign
Ministry said.
Ukrainian authorities have launched a full-scale investigation into the murder of Denis Voronenkov, another Kremlin critic dead, leaving behind a
grieving wife expecting their second child.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PLEITGEN: So as you can see there, Hala, this case already leading to Russia and Ukraine trading barbs over it. It was interesting. The
Prosecutor General of Ukraine came out earlier today and said that possible motives could be that Voronenkov knew something about Russian financial
dealings. Also, that he was potentially going to testify in a case against former President Viktor Yanukovych.
But, again, the Russians are saying all of this is nonsense. They say that they have absolutely nothing to do with, as you said, was a major and
brazen attack there, right in the middle of Kiev in broad daylight, Hala.
GORANI: Thanks very much, Fred Pleitgen, our senior international correspondent in Moscow.
Coming up, a closer look here in London at the touching the moments we've seen in the city today. And also around the world.
You see there a vigil that happened a short while ago. We'll be right back with more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: You see Berlin's Brandenburg Gate there lit up with the U.K. flag to pay tribute to the victims of the attacks yesterday in London. Even the
comic, "The Late Night" host, James Corden, well, he's known for making people laugh, usually, but on his show yesterday, he took a moment to pay a
somber tribute to his hometown of London and express solidarity after the attacks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[16:54:58] JAMES CORDEN, HOST, THE LATE LATE SHOW WITH JAMES CORDEN: Watching the news today, I felt a really long, long way from home. And
it's funny, when something like that happens in your hometown, you don't have a feeling of being glad that you're so far away. What you feel is
that you wish you could be there, with loved ones, to stand alongside them.
London is a diverse and proud and brilliant city. And one thing is for sure, if this act of terrorism was supposed to divide the people of London,
I know for a fact that all something like this does is bring them closer together, as one.
Tonight, we send our heartfelt thoughts to everybody in Britain. Stay safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: James Corden there, who lives in the United States -- of course, he's from London -- talking to his U.S.-based viewers about his thoughts on
the attack. Of course, it was here in this city, in Trafalgar Square, where we saw Londoners come together.
Take a look at the moment of silence that happened earlier tonight there.
Well, the officials included, as you can see there in these images, the London Mayor, Sadiq Khan; the Home Secretary, Amber Rudd; M.P. and Acting
Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, Craig Mackey. They went on to light candles. You see them there.
The crowds remained in Trafalgar Square for some time since that ceremony, demonstrating the resilience and unity of the city. And it is a city I
personally call home. It is the most diverse city with more languages spoken here than anywhere else. And many of the people here today haven't
changed their routine one bit.
I'd say most everyone is just going on with life as usual, even though the attack yesterday shocked so many. We'll have more of our coverage after a
quick break. I'm Hala Gorani. Stay with us on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
