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Hala Gorani Tonight
Erdogan Claims Victory To Grab Sweeping New Powers; North Korean Ambassador: War Could Break Out Any Moment; Russia Accused Of Meddling In French Election; Intense Search On After Killing Posted On Facebook. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired April 17, 2017 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[15:00:30]
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HALA GORANI, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Hala Gorani. We are coming to you live from CNN London. Thanks for being with us this Monday evening.
This is THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.
Nine months ago, he was facing a coup and the prospect of losing his grip on power. Now, it looks like Recep Tayyip Erdogan is stronger than ever.
A referendum victory gives him sweeping new powers, but in the end, it was a slim majority that got him win showing a deep divide within the country.
As you can see in here Mr. Erdogan won big in the countryside highlighted in green, but not in a major cities and population areas. And
international monitors have delivered a scathing verdict on how the whole vote was conducted.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI (voice-over): A sea of supporters greeted President Erdogan in Ankara a day after his historic referendum win. Turkish flags as far as
the eye could see as he declared victory for a strong Turkey and the defeat of the west.
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN, TURKISH PRESIDENT (through translator): It was a fight against everyone. The crusaders ideology in the west, and the
servants here attacked us, but we did not give up. We stand up as a nation.
GORANI: Erdogan's powers are now said to be expanded and his grip on the country's executive and judiciary tightened, but the result was narrow
around 51 percent to 49 and opposition groups have not accepted it quietly. Angry protesters took to the streets of Turkey's main cities where a
majority of people voted against the changes. The main opposition party criticized the electoral board for allowing irregular ballot papers to be
counted calling for the result to be nullified.
BULENT TEZCAN, DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, PEOPLE'S REPUBLICAN PARTY (through translator): The only decision that will end the debate about the
legitimacy of the vote and east the people's legal concerns is the annulment of this referendum.
GORANI: International election monitors delivered a scathing verdict on the referendum campaign saying it was not conducted on a level playing
field.
TANA DE ZULUETA, INTERNATIONAL ELECTION MONITOR: Our team accepting the misuse of administrative resources and the civil party organizations
supporting the no campaign. In numerous cases, no sympathizers face police interventions and violent scuffles at their events.
GORANI: The criticism is likely to embolden the opposition and deepen the divisions in this increasingly polarized country. Erdogan's new powers
will likely come into effect in 2019 and could see him stay on as leader until 2029. A chilling thought for many in Turkey who blame him for a
steady erosion of the democracy and the human rights.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Well, straight to Istanbul, CNN's Ian Lee is there. When will we start actually seeing changes in Turkey, Ian?
IAN LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the changes to the constitution will happen for some immediately especially when it comes to the judiciary, we
will see changes to the high court, but when it comes to the actual par parliament and the president, that won't happen, Hala, until 2019 when
there will be another election for a new parliament, and there is a presidential election at the same time.
And then moving forward, you will see this change in the constitution, but until then, we were out speaking with those protesters who say that they
are not going to give up the fight.
They are still demanding that this referendum be null and void because of the discrepancies that they say took place in that European monitors said
took place -- Hala.
[15:05:03]GORANI: All right. Ian Lee, thanks very much, covering this important story for us in Istanbul. Let's get more analysis on what this
could mean for Turkey and the region.
I'm joined from Chicago by Ian Bremmer, president of the Eurasia Group. Ian, is this really an erosion of the Turkish democracy as critics are
contending?
IAN BREMMER, PRESIDENT, EURASIA GROUP: It certainly is, though, it is not new. I mean, Erdogan has been eroding the democracy for some time. You
remember that failed coup and the aftermath of that, there were tens of thousands of suspected and alleged Erdogan opponents who were hassled and
rounded up and detained.
They have larger numbers of journalists in jail right now than any other country in the world including China. You know, there is not much of a
free media anymore in Turkey so they have been heading down this path.
But certainly, it culminates in the vote that we saw this weekend and the fact that now Turkey will be invested with the new constitution that will
allow the president to have much more sweeping rule over the way the country is run.
GORANI: But a majority of Turks voted for it, a majority of Turks support these changes.
BREMMER: That is absolutely true, but again, look, I think on balance, it was a free election in the sense that pretty much everyone that wanted to
vote could, and turnout was actually quite high, about 85 percent.
But it was not a fair election in that not only that you heard from some of the election monitors have many of the opponents of the referendum been
harassed and hassled and they weren't allowed to use effectively state resources to promote the cause in the run-up.
But also if you don't have a free media in the months before the referendum, then, you know, in lots of places where all they hear from is
the government like in the rural areas where you end up having a strong Erdogan vote, they will vote the other way.
So you can't say that it is a fair referendum. Erdogan did everything possible to engineer this. He really believe and speaking to some of the
advisers over the last week that they were going to get about 55 percent to 60 percent of the turnout and they only got 51 percent. But of course,
anything over 50 is more than enough for Erdogan to say to put in the bank and say this country is mine.
GORANI: Well, that is how referendums work, we saw it with Brexit, and we are seeing it here now as well. We were showing the viewers the map
showing how divided Turkey is. The urban centers largely voted against these changes, and really as you mentioned there, the rural less populated
areas that supported Erdogan. What is next for the country? It is so incredibly polarized right now.
BREMMER: That is right, the more conservative areas, the less educated area, the more religious areas all had much less problem with the idea that
the country was not going to be particularly democratic. They knew they were not going to go into Europe any time soon, and Europe is a very
divided place.
As a tourist, anyone goes to Istanbul or the blue coast, they understand just how extraordinary the cosmopolitan Turkish elites are, well educated,
how many language do they speak, all of this, but that is not Turkey as a whole.
Turkey as a whole is an incredibly divided society, and what is interesting is that if you saw the Arab Spring, they were many that believed that Egypt
was going to move more towards a Turkish model after this referendum.
It turns out that Turkey is actually moving towards that more Egyptian model. They don't look like Europe. They look increasingly like the
Middle East in terms of their governance.
GORANI: So what's going on? Why then? Because just maybe a decade ago it wasn't inconceivable to imagine that Turkey would start in earnest the
process of joining the E.U. That sounds like an absolute fantasy right now and as you are saying, your analysis is they are moving closer to the
Egyptian model than the other way around. What is behind this?
BREMMER: Well, there are a couple of things. They were never welcomed by the European. I think that the Europeans had been willing to accept a
populist Muslim country in their midst, and truly integrated them. You would have had much more support for a western liberal democratic model.
And Erdogan never would have been able to grab as much power as he has, well, that's water under the bridge now. We have also seen greater
inequality in our society and European societies, and in a Turkish society.
And that's been that a lot of people are more willing to go out and say, I'm sick of being told by a bunch of pro-globalization people that Turkey
needs to be more outward in orientation. Turkey should be run the way we want it to be run.
And Erdogan's laws has been very effective in saying we want rights for Islam, we are not going to have a secular Muslim regime. So out of Turk
himself, his legacy has really been in many ways laid to rest by the vote that was taken this weekend and terribly sad day for so many Turks, who
believed that they were creating a modern Turkey.
GORANI: Well, and where have we heard by the way before this rejection of globalization, and embracing populism. We have seen it in other elections
obviously, and we may see it again in France next week. Speaking of France and Europe, last question, how are they likely to react here?
Because of course, Turkey signed a deal with Europe closing the way to the waves of refugees that created such a crisis for this continent a couple of
years ago.
[15:10:10]They still hold a lot of power over these European countries?
BREMMER: Well, I mean, the fact is that the Europeans made it clear that the Turks were not particularly welcome in their borders. There were so
many guest workers that went to Germany and did not feel like they could integrate.
Now of course, Turkey itself is home to some over 2 million Syrian refugees, and the Europeans are saying, we don't want them. At some point,
that deal is going to fall apart. Right now, it is transactional. It's security for cash basically on the tit-for-tat basis.
But after German elections later on this year, I suspect you will start to see penalties from the European against Turkey, and the Turks will say they
are going to go on their way, but one final point here, let's keep in mind that Erdogan does not get to enjoy all these powers until he has elections,
and he wins as president.
So they are going to keep emergency rule on right now. Erdogan does not feel he is out of the woods. He is still going to be acting as a guy who
has a lot to prove until those elections are over.
GORANI: Ian Bremmer as always, the president of the Eurasia Group. We really appreciate your analysis joining us live from Chicago. Thank you so
much.
Donald Trump says North Korea has, quote, "Gotta behave." He delivered that terse message at the White House today while his vice president
spelled out the administration's new strategy, standing just dozens of meters away from North Korean soldiers.
Mike Pence toured the demilitarized zone between North and South Korea today. In an exclusive interview with CNN, he told Dana Bash that the U.S.
will no longer use, quote, "strategic patience" to deal with Pyongyang.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Mr. Vice President, I was watching you watch what is behind you earlier, what is going through your
mind looking at North Korea?
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is a frontier of freedom, and now for more than six decades, U.S. forces and forces of South
Korea have held the line for freedom here at the DMZ. And it is inspiring for me to see the resolve of these soldiers, and to see the alliance that
we have forged with the people of South Korea throughout the generations, and it gives me great confidence as we go into the future. That we will
achieve the objective of a secure and prosperous South Korea, but also that we will see a Korean Peninsula free of nuclear weapons.
BASH: You said that the age, excuse me, you said that the era of patience, strategic patience is over. What does that mean in real terms?
PENCE: It was the policy of the United States of America during prior administrations to practice what they called strategic patience, and that
was to hope to martial international support to bring an end to the nuclear ambitions and the ballistic missile programs of North Korea. That has
clearly failed, and the advent of nuclear weapons testing, the development of a nuclear program, and even this weekend to see another attempt at a
ballistic missile launch all confirms the fact that strategic patience has failed.
BASH: What does it mean to end it in practical terms, it is either to use military force or find a diplomatic source that has eluded all of your
predecessors?
PENCE: Well, I think as the president has made clear that we are going to abandon the failed policy of strategic patience, but we are going to
redouble our efforts to bring diplomatic and economic pressure to bear on North Korea. Our hope is that we can resolve the issue peaceably, and I
know the president was heartened by his discussions with President Xi. We have seen China begin to take some actions to bring pressure on North
Korea, but there needs to be more.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Mike Pence there at the demilitarized zone. It didn't take long for North Korea to respond to Pence's visit or his warning that Pyongyang
should not test the U.S. military resolve. Ivan Watson is following that part of the story from Seoul -- Ivan.
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hala, the U.S. vice president did more than just declare that the strategy of strategic
patience was over. He also invoked the U.S. cruise missile strike against the Syrian government air base less than two weeks ago, and the air strike
against ISIS targets in Eastern Afghanistan.
And declared that those were examples of U.S. strength and resolve and he warned North Korea not to challenge that resolve and not to test it. It
was an implicit threat that was made here in South Korea.
Hours later, the North Korean ambassador to the United Nations came out and he accused the U.S. of saber rattling, as he put it, and gangster-like
logic, which he said was ratcheting up tension. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[15:15:05]Kim In Ryong, North Korean Ambassador to U.N.: It has been creating a dangerous situation in which the nuclear war could break out any
moment on the peninsula, and poses a serious threat to the world peace and security.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATSON: This is the kind of the talk and the movement of the aircraft carrier strike group, and the threats of more missile launches and the
nuclear tests are coming from North Korea are ratcheting up the tension here.
But the U.S. vice president had another message, too, that the U.S. is a close South Korean ally, and this that Washington's future steps would be
conducted in concert, he said, with South Korea, which of course, stands the most to lose if things spiral out of control.
South Korea hosting some 30,000 U.S. troops, and the capital here within range of conventional artillery in North Korea on the northern side of the
demilitarized zone.
GORANI: Thanks very much, Ivan Watson in Seoul this evening.
Still to come tonight, nationalistic rallying cries, corruption allegations, a last-minute socialist surge with less than a week before the
first round of elections. What will happen next in this dramatic unpredictable presidential race in France?
Also, ahead, a killer records his crime and posts it to Facebook. How police and the social network are responding. We will be right back.
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GORANI: We are in the homestretch of one of the most dramatic elections in modern French history, and we should say modern European history maybe
even. The top candidates are out enforce. There's only a few days left.
Far left Jean-Luc Melenchon, Centrist Emmanuel Macron, Republican Francois Fillon, and far right, Marine Le Pen, are all hitting the campaign trail.
Melenchon is in a late breaking surge thanks to some strong debate performances, but his leftist agenda could be a hard sell to main stream
voters. Macron's policies are inoffensive, but some say they are also unexciting.
Once upon a time Fillon reflect the favorite, but he's fighting damaging corruption allegations. And far right candidate, Marine Le Pen widely
expected to make it to the second round, but experts say her controversial policies such as banning religious symbols in public will not gain wider
traction than her four support group.
Just moments ago at this very rally there was an incident where a woman had to be dragged off of the stage. Take a look.
(VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Now, we don't know what the woman's motives were. She was trying to deliver, I guess, maybe too benign a term a bouquet of flowers to Marine
Le Pen.
[15:20:03]To me, it looked like a (inaudible) act, I can't be sure. Looks like she was about ready to unzip her top to reveal maybe some wording on
her chest, not too sure. That is what it looked like to me.
Le Pen referenced the far left as she continue speaking saying they are using a French expression saying they are walking on their heads, which
basically means they are making no sense, and they are going haywire.
There you have it, more controversy and drama in the French election just days away. Adding to that circus atmosphere, the French electorate is
being bombarded with fake news. Facebook in fact has said that it deleted 30,000 accounts saying that they spread spam and misinformation, but it is
Russia that has some candidates most concerned. Melissa Bell reports from Paris on that angle.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MELISSA BELL, CNN PARIS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The choice facing French voters is stark, 11 candidates with radically different visions of
what the future should be. Of them, the two frontrunners have almost diametrically opposed proposals.
On one hand, a stronger relationship with Europe, and a tough look at Russia. On the other, a referendum on leaving the E.U. and a closer
relationship with Moscow.
It is (inaudible) that Marine Le Pen has already started working on with a visit to Moscow, Vladimir Putin took the opportunity to state Russia's
position.
VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We don't want to influence the events in anyway.
BELL: But inside Emmanuel Macron's headquarters, the fear is that Moscow has been trying to help Marine Le Pen. His campaign manager says they are
being targeted by both cyber-attacks and fake news.
RICHARD FERRAND, CAMPAIGN MANAGER, EN MARCHAL (through translator): Emmanuel Macron wants a strong European Union and we know that the strategy
of those countries that don't want a strong Europe means making him lose the election.
BELL: So is Russia interfering in France's presidential campaign as it is alleged to have done in the American poll? France's internet watchdog has
warned of the danger of cyber interference. We asked an expert on French cyber security whether he thought Russia was involved.
FABRICE EPELBOIN, CO-FOUNDER, YOGOSHA: Yes, probably, just like the United States has been interfering in many, many presidential elections around the
world for the past, I don't know, 50 years, and just like France has been interfering in almost every African presidential election since, the last
60 or 70 years. It is the way that democracy works around the world.
BELL: The trouble says Fabrice, it is impossible given the sophistication of the technology to determine where a particular hack originated. CNN
reached out to the kremlin to get their response, a spokesman said, "We strongly disagree with these accusation. They are groundless. Moscow was
not involved in any cyber-attacks and can't be involved."
So what about fake news? At the French "Daily Lemond," a special unit was set up in which 12 journalists worked to identify and debunk fake news.
Adrian Senecat (inaudible) the French presidential campaign has seen partisan news from Russian media, but not fake news, that is news stories
that are entirely made up. They have tended he says to come from inside France.
ADRIAN SENECAT, JOURNALIST, "LE MONDE": We got stories that we are finding the last couple of months in the French internet were mostly being made up
by far right website or the far right Facebook pages, and they are mostly targeting migrants or medias.
BELL (on camera): For those inside Emmanuel Macron's campaign headquarters, fake news stories targeting their candidate are all the more
worrying because of the nature of his electorate. It is untested because he has never stood before, and the polls suggest much more volatile than
Marine Le Pen.
In short, he has many more people to convince, and the fear here is that some may be all too easily put off. Melissa Bell, CNN, in Paris.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Speaking of the French elections, we will cover the run-up to the election all this week. Join me Friday at the usual time for THE WORLD
RIGHT NOW. I will be live in Paris.
And we'll also have a special Sunday edition of our program as results roll in. Results, of course, announced officially at 8 p.m. local. We will
start the program a little bit earlier and take it into the evening with the very latest analysis and coverage from the French capital.
Let's turn our attention now to just an absolutely bizarre and grim story that has turned into a nationwide manhunt for a murder suspect in the
United States.
Authorities are searching for Steve Stephens this man, who is accused of shooting an elderly man, taping it and posting video of the crime on
Facebook and they have just posted a $50,000 reward for information that would lead to the rest of Stephens.
The victim, Robert Godwin, was shot Sunday in Cleveland, Ohio. He was walking home from an Easter meal with his kids. The killer apparently
picked his victim at random.
[15:25:04]Police held a news conference early Monday urging Stephens to turn himself in. They say they made contact with him early in the
investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF CALVIN WILLIAMS, CLEVELAND POLICE: We know he's out there someplace. We talked to him via cell phone, yes. Obviously, he's got deep, deep
issues, and whether he was calm or not, he committed a heinous crime in the city, and we want to get him off the streets as soon as possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, I am sure many people share that desire, and many people in that area, and around the country, and the gruesome video, by the way,
stayed up for hours before Facebook disabled access to it.
Let's get more on all this, Brian Stelter joins me now. So Brian, first of all, I mean, how do you police this? It's nearly impossible, right?
Because this wasn't Facebook Live, this was uploaded to the site?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: That's right. This suspect was using Facebook to post status updates to his friends. He was using it
to post recorded videos and then later after the shooting, after he posted the video of the shooting, he then went on Facebook live and talk with his
friends about why he said that he did it and why he was rationalizing his behavior.
But this was a mix of video and live video and recorded video, and it's very difficult for Facebook and other companies to be able to track these
videos and take them down very quickly.
At least that is what the company say. The Silicon Valley tech giants like Facebook and YouTube say they work very hard to try to police these kinds
of graphic, gruesome videos and they are trying to get better and better at it.
But in this case, this video, the actual video of the shooting itself was online for about three hours after it was uploaded. Copies of it are still
circulating around the web.
So it is a constant battle by these companies trying to take down gruesome videos whether they from the criminals like in this case in Cleveland, from
terrorists around the world, a real challenge for Silicon Valley companies.
GORANI: And we have seen the horrible instances of alleged rapes being broadcast on Facebook Live, and other crimes as well broadcast on Facebook
and other social media platforms. I wonder, because there are so many users, have we reached this dystopian nightmare now where all these
horrible act if someone really wants to get it out there on one of these platforms for everyone to see. They just can because it is impossible to
monitor every single feed and every single video.
STELTER: Right. This are the big questions that this case brings up as the virtual world and the real world essentially become the same, as people
live their entire lives online and share some of the best moments of humanity. We are also seeing some people share the worst.
You know, on Saturday a million people watched online as a giraffe gave birth at a zoo up the road here from New York. It is this really popular
viral moment, and brought to you live on Facebook Live.
It is that kind of thing that Facebook says is the beauty of its platform. It's providing the ability to make the world a smaller place, but then you
see something like this, this very up close and personal gory video of a murder on Facebook, and it shows the conundrum the company is in. Does the
good outweigh the bad or does the site do more harm than good? That is the debate today.
GORANI: I mean, absolutely, but does it have a solution? I mean, what solution is it considering to try to address this?
STELTER: Well, often times these companies say there are algorhythmic (ph) technological solutions. I would argue if these computers were so
impressive, if you and I tag the picture of us together, Facebook knows right away our two faces.
Well, if it can do that, why it cannot also recognize a gunshot or a stream of blood on a sidewalk? You would think the technology that is also making
our lives easier in many ways would be able to better police and identify these kinds of gruesome videos in real time.
GORANI: Interesting. Thank you very much as always, Brian Stelter. We appreciate it.
Still to come, North Korea responds to new U.S. threats with new warnings of its own. We will take a closer look at the Trump administration's
strategy for reining in or trying to rein in Pyongyang's nuclear program. We will get the perspective from a former State Department spokesperson.
Stay with us.
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[15:31:26] HALA GORANI, CNN ANCHOR: After a very tense weekend, the back and forth threats between the United States and North Korea are escalating
tonight, but the White House says, don't expect Donald Trump to draw any kind of "red line in the sand," quote, unquote. A spokesman says the U.S.
President will take decisive action when appropriate but won't, quote, "telegraph" his intentions in advance. Mr. Trump himself took a moment
from an annual Easter Egg Roll today to weigh in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any message for North Korea, sir, Kim Jong-un?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Got to behave.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, do you think North Korea can be resolved peacefully, sir? What are your thoughts on Kim Jong-un?
TRUMP: Hopefully it can.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Let's get some perspective now from CNN national security analyst, retired Rear Admiral John Kirby. He's a former spokesperson for the U.S.
State Department and the Pentagon. Thanks for joining us.
REAR ADMIRAL JOHN KIRBY (RET.), FORMER SPOKESPERSON, UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF STATE: Thanks, Hala.
GORANI: First, I want to ask you, Mike Pence is saying -- and I'm going to run this sound -- that, essentially, the United States is going to drop
this, quote, "failed policy strategic patience." He was at the Demilitarized Zone today. This is what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think, as the President has made it clear, that we're going to abandon the failed policy of
strategic patience, but we're going to redouble our efforts to bring diplomatic and economic pressure to bear on North Korea. Our hope is that
we can resolve this peaceably.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: So what do you think that means, John Kirby, saying we won't be patient, but we'll still try to be diplomatic? We hope not to use force,
but we will if we have to. Which is it?
KIRBY: Well, you know, it is difficult to know. I think, certainly, this is a situation that's getting harder and harder and more difficult
literally by the hour as Kim Jong-un continues to test missiles and threaten nuclear tests. So certainly, timeliness matters here, but it also
really matters how much the international community stays resolved.
China is not going to fix this all by themselves. The United States isn't going the fix this all by ourselves. You've got to have a strong
international consensus on the types of diplomatic and economic pressure that the Vice President is talking about.
I will give the President's team credit for working this very hard. Unlike the Syria, they've taken a more deliberate, more measured, more interagency
approach in the discussions about North Korea since his inauguration. And I think the Vice President's trip there today is yet another sign of that.
I mean, I think it's very powerful to see him there and to have those things to say --
GORANI: But if nothing works, you have to do something, though, right? I mean, because North Korea might have a missile capable of reaching the
United States by 2020. We're talking three years from now, so time is not on the U.S.'s side here.
KIRBY: This is very much a race against the clock as they continue to develop these capabilities. Every time they test, whether it is a
successful test or not, it's not a failure. They're learning from it. So time is very much of the essence. And I think, you know, that the Trump
administration has focused as much energy and effort on North Korea since they took office, I think, is a good sign.
Now, it remains to be seen, you know, how much they're going to get assistance from China on this. China has only half-heartedly supported
some of the sanctions and economic measures that have been in place. They have a vested interest in not seeing a destabilized Korean Peninsula, but
they also don't want to see a unified Korean Peninsula that is allied with the West. So there's an awful lot of work to be done here.
GORANI: But is this not a result of eight years of President Obama's presidency where, essentially, apart from the sanctions and little bit of
the economic pressure, there really wasn't not much being done about North Korea? All of the strategic patience didn't pay off at all, did it?
[15:35:11] KIRBY: I couldn't disagree more with you, Hala. I think that's just a flawed narrative. President Obama worked very, very hard on the
North Korea problem. And, you know, it was under President Obama that we beefed up naval assets in the Pacific, you know, shifting to about 60
percent of the United States Navy in the Pacific.
It was under President Obama where we beefed up advanced radar systems, both out there in the region and back here at home at Fort Greeley in
Alaska. It was under President Obama's administration --
GORANI: But it didn't stop North Korea. It didn't stop North Korea from continuing to test missiles, continuing its nuclear program.
KIRBY: Absolutely.
GORANI: The stated objective was to do that.
KIRBY: I'm absolutely not disagreeing with you, you know, that all the pressure put to bear did not stop Kim Jong-un's development of this
program. I'm not arguing that at all, but it was, again, under President Obama where the toughest sanctions that were enacted in 20 years were put
through the U.N. Security Council with the leadership of the United States, so there was a lot of work done.
Did it deter him from developing these capabilities? Absolutely not. And even President Obama would be the first to admit that. That's why when we
met with then President-elect Trump, he told him that this was going to be the thorniest, the most difficult, the most dangerous issue that you're
going to be dealing with as president. And he knew what he was talking about because he had worked this very, very hard and still, we weren't able
to get there.
GORANI: Right. Quick last one.
KIRBY: Yes.
GORANI: I mean, are we going to avoid a major crisis here? The world is - -
KIRBY: Well, we certainly hope so.
GORANI: The safety of an entire region and the world beyond is at stake here.
KIRBY: We certainly hope so, Hala. I mean, the potential for catastrophe there is greater than just about any other place on the earth right now.
And it's a far cry different from launching a strike of Tomahawk missiles onto an airfield in Syria, and then dealing with this issue. And so
flippant comments such as what the President made today on the White House lawn, like they got to behave, that's not going to be helpful.
What you need is a sound, reasoned, deliberate process run by the National Security Council. They're moving in that direction, but they really have
to think internationally. It can't just be the United States and it can't just be China. I don't think China is going to be able to solve this all
on their own. Though they have more influence in Pyongyang than any other nation, they're still going to need strong international consensus.
And I do agree with the Vice President, you got to try to solve this peaceably without it coming to blows. Obviously, we have a strong military
presence there. Obviously, we have deterrent capability. That should always be on the table. Military options should always be on the table,
but in this particular case, with the threat that this guy poses to the international community, our treaty alliances there and the entire Pacific
region, you want to solve this in a peaceful, diplomatic way if you can.
GORANI: John Kirby, thanks very much. Appreciate it.
KIRBY: My pleasure.
GORANI: In a new interview, Britain's Prince Harry speaks candidly about the emotional distress he felt after the death of his mother. Harry, you
might remember, was just 12 years old when Diana, Princess of Wales, died in a car crash. He says he only got counseling two year ago after burying
his grief for many years. Nina dos Santos has our story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNNMONEY EUROPE EDITOR: Prince Harry on a trip to Jamaica in 2012, all smiles and dance. But these were far from fun times for
Britain's seemingly carefree young royal who revealed to "The Daily Telegraph" newspaper that he sought counseling four years ago after coming
close to breakdown.
PRINCE HARRY OF WALES, UNITED KINGDOM: Well, I was a typical sort of 20, 25, you know, 28-year-old, running around going, you know, life is great
or, you know, life is fine. And then I started to have some conversations, and actually, all of a sudden, all of this grief that I'd never processed
started to come to the forefront. I was like, there's actually a lot of stuff here I need to deal with.
DOS SANTOS: The second son of Prince Charles and Diana, Princess of Wales, Harry was only 12 when his mother was killed in a car crash in Paris,
sending the nation into immediate mourning.
But the young prince who still lives at Kensington Palace, her former home, says that he was unable to process his feelings of grief until his 20s,
leading to two years of total chaos, a period which left a profound impact on both his personal and professional life.
PRINCE HARRY: My way of dealing with it was, yes, sticking my head in the sand, refusing to ever think about my mom because why? Why would that
help? It's only going to make you sad. It's not going to bring her back.
DOS SANTOS: For the journalist who interviewed him, herself a mental health campaigner, it was unusual to hear a royal talk for half an hour on
any subject, let alone one who's been wary of the media in the past.
BRYONY GORDON, COLUMNIST, THE DAILY TELEGRAPH: I thought, possibly, you know, he might say a few things kind of obliquely. And then we arrived at
Kensington Palace and sort of it was me and him in a room with a cup of tea. And he just sort of spouted forth, and it was quite extraordinary.
It was quite extraordinary to hear a royal talk for such a long time.
[15:40:09] DOS SANTOS: This isn't the first time Prince Harry, fifth in line to the throne, has smashed stigmas. A former soldier, he has walked
to the South Pole with wounded Army veterans to highlight their plight.
PRINCE HARRY: Another 11 course just to go.
DOS SANTOS: And launched the Invictus Games for amputees. In choosing to reveal his battle with his own emotions, Harry is highlighting a cause also
close to the heart of his brother, Prince William, who he credits with his decision to seek help.
PRINCE: You really need to deal with this. It's not normal to think that nothing has affected you.
DOS SANTOS: Prince Harry says that he is now better, but his very public admission of therapy to deal with his mother's death will leave many
profoundly moved as the nation, this summer, prepares to mark the 20th anniversary of her passing.
Nina dos Santos, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Many people suffer in silence like Prince Harry did, something mental health professionals are trying to change. Let's get some
perspective. We're joined by Mark Rowland from the Mental Health Foundation.
Thanks for being with us.
MARK ROWLAND, DIRECTOR OF FUNDRAISING AND COMMUNICATIONS, MENTAL HEALTH FOUNDATION: You're welcome.
GORANI: Do you think high-profile accounts like Prince Harry coming out, speaking so openly and candidly about mental health issues, will that
change, do you think, things dramatically?
ROWLAND: I hope so and I think so. You know, I think mental health is one of the big social issues facing our generation. And when you look at
history, you look at watershed moments in big social problems, and when you have someone as famous and also as respected as Prince Harry talking with
vulnerability, with insight, with real understanding, it shows people it can be done. It shows people there's nothing to fear.
GORANI: And nothing to be ashamed of.
ROWLAND: And shame is such a big driver in relation to mental health.
GORANI: Yes.
ROWLAND: It's the big difference between physical health and mental health. When I break my leg, I'm not ashamed I broke my leg.
GORANI: Yes.
ROWLAND: But when I have a mental health problem, it says something about me.
GORANI: And it's perceived as a weakness.
ROWLAND: And fundamentally, that maybe I am broken, maybe there's something wrong with me.
GORANI: And you think that's changing now, little by little?
ROWLAND: It is changing. Certainly in the U.K., we have had famous sports stars speaking out. Freddie Flintoff has been great. Rio Ferdinand has
been great. But what's remarkable is that this is the stuff of ordinary life, right?
This is not new stuff. We are in the 21st century, and it is still news when someone says, I'm hurting, it's having a consequence on my life and
the life of others, and I'm going to do something about it.
GORANI: And why is it taking so long to change? I mean, we're all on Facebook.
ROWLAND: Sure.
GORANI: We all tweet. We're all supposedly open and connected now, yet we still can't admit when we're depressed or when we need medication or when
we need counselling. Why not?
ROWLAND: I think basically because it hurts. It really hurts to be able to talk and be honest, and we are hard wired to avoid rejection. You know,
we've evolved that way. We're survival animals in terms of -- and our ability to be resilient is strong. But what we haven't really learned is,
in the 21st century, that, actually, if we're going to get to the next level of our sort of human consciousness, we're going to have to be able to
manage our mental health more successfully.
GORANI: And for men, it's harder. I mean, men are more -- the suicide, we have a statistic here that's actually a very compelling number. I didn't
realize that it was so disproportionate, that so many more men kill themselves than women.
ROWLAND: You're right.
GORANI: The U.K. suicide rate, 78 percent -- this is from your foundation -- women, 22 percent.
ROWLAND: That's right.
GORANI: Why?
ROWLAND: So we have a massive problem with young men. It is the largest killer, bar none. They're not dying of heart disease, they're not being
knocked over by a bus, men are taking their own lives. And unless we are able to understand what is happening, not just in individual cases but also
as a society about what it means to be a man, what it means to deal and understand and do the hard work.
And that's what I was impressed, what Prince Harry did. He had done some hard work, some reflection. He'd faced his pain, he'd let go of some of
the stuff that was holding him back. And not many people get there.
GORANI: The imbalance there between men and women, I mean, I don't know, we can only speculate, but is it maybe because men have a harder time
opening up and asking for help?
ROWLAND: Sure.
GORANI: Because when you ask for help, you know, it helps. It allows you, perhaps, to process some of the issues.
ROWLAND: Well, we did a survey last year, and we looked at 2,500 people dealing with a mental health issue. And what that research showed us was
that men were 50 percent less likely to seek help, to seek professional help, and less likely to talk to friends and family. And that's a big
problem, and it will change.
GORANI: And they self-medicate sometimes, alcohol, drugs, et cetera.
[15:44:59] ROWLAND: That's right. And one of the things I think we're really passionate about is that there are some really effective tools to
self-manage productively and effectively our mental health. We understand that it's not about just avoiding ill health in physical health. It's
about really being healthy.
GORANI: Yes.
ROWLAND: And that's where we've got to get to with our mental health.
GORANI: Yes. Great conversation. Thanks so much, Mark Rowland -- and an important one that I hope we continue -- from the Mental Health Foundation.
We appreciate you on the program this evening.
ROWLAND: Thank you.
GORANI: This is THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. Coming up, we'll talk to the man who tried to disable Syria's chemical weapons program in 2013 about the
horrific chemical attack in Idlib province that happened just weeks ago. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: In Syria, yet another tragedy. At least 126 civilians were killed in a car bombing during the weekend just outside Aleppo. And they were
fleeing to safety when this happened, so imagine the horror. A monitoring group says more than half of the victims were children.
This video shows the moment of the blast as a suicide car bomber targeted buses evacuating these thousands of civilians that are pro-government
villagers. You can see many women and children standing near the buses. They were being relocated as part of a U.N.-backed swap with rebels. No
one has claimed responsibility for the attack, this is a horrifying attack.
The bus explosion comes less than two weeks after the deadly chemical attack in the Idlib province. The images were about to show you are
graphic and difficult to watch. The government still denies that it carried it out.
And today, Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov criticized the American response, calling the U.S. missile strike that followed the attack illegal
and aggressive. Lavrov said it only exacerbated the situation and hindered, maybe on purpose, the search for political settlement. This is
the version of events of Sergey Lavrov.
Our next guest personally led the operation to destroy Syria's chemical weapons program in 2013. Jerry Smith was the head of field operations for
the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. He joins me now via Skype from Cornwall, England.
Thanks very much for joining us. One of the things you said in 2013 in an interview with the BBC was about the Syrian regime, they are not now in a
position to conduct any further production or mixing of chemical weapons. Clearly, according to many observers, they were still in the position to do
that in 2017, so what went wrong?
JERRY SMITH, FORMER HEAD OF FIELD OPERATIONS IN SYRIA, ORGANIZATION FOR THE PROHIBITION OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS: Hala, if you recollect that interview, I
did actually qualify that by saying in regards to everything that the Syrian regime had declared.
GORANI: So they hadn't declared everything?
SMITH: Well, that still remains to be seen. The OPCW in 2013, when Syria came to join the Chemical Weapons Convention, presented a declaration, and
the task that we did in 2013 in October to do that verification and disablement was conducted in a very tight frame but according to that
declaration.
[15:50:10] Subsequently, the OPCW Director General did set up the declaration assessment team which went in several times, and in fact, I
believe their operations are still ongoing. And their task is to seek further information on that declaration.
A number of issues have come up, a number of issues have been resolved, but the team is still operational. And if you see some of the executive
council meeting records that have occurred over the past couple of years, there's still some serious questions about Syria's declaration. It
certainly is quite --
GORANI: So you relied only on the declaration? I guess that would puzzle some people, just taking the word of the government for it.
SMITH: Well, that's how the Chemical Weapons Convention works for all nations, including Russia, the United States, and the other possessor
states. So that's how it operates. There are provisions in the convention to allow a more investigative process, but up until that point, in fact,
even today, no member state has triggered actually triggered that mechanism. It is possible, but it hasn't been triggered.
GORANI: So do you believe, in your professional estimation, that it was the regime that was responsible for the chemical attack in Idlib a few
weeks ago?
SMITH: Well, I think it's still too close to call. What I've noticed over the last couple of weeks is that there's been, you know, a lot of
definitives made either from one side or for the other. Now, clearly, the U.S. government have an awful lot more access to information than I do, and
they made a decision to conduct those strikes.
What I am keen on seeing is an objective investigation that covers all the bases. But clearly, there are some information that has come out. The
Turkish government have issued a declaration that victims were poisoned with sarin. That is a pretty definitive issue.
GORANI: So what does that tell us? I mean, is it possible? Because the supporters of the government would say, you've jumped to conclusions, and
they may have bombed a warehouse that contains sarin and all other sorts of explanations. But then many others have said, look, the capability to
deliver this silent, deadly weapon the air can only be from the regime side.
SMITH: Well, delivering it from the air, that's probably true, it could only be the regime. Like I said, I think the key thing is, is that what we
need to do is examine each of these lines. And very carefully and constructively, you will pick away, somebody is lying. Clearly, there is a
stakeholder out there that is not telling the truth. And if you did these objective analyses of the situations, clearly, the balance and
probabilities start to strip away, and sides will eventually trump the politics.
GORANI: Jerry Smith, former OPCW head of field operations for Syria. We really appreciate your time this evening. Thank you very much.
We're going to take a quick break on CNN. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: All right. Now, all week, we've been taking you to Mauritius, an island best known for its beaches and crystal-clear waters, but it also is
fast becoming a culinary hot spot. On today's edition of "Destination Mauritius," we meet an award-winning chef. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[15:54:58] MARIO PIERROT, CHEF: When you come to Mauritius, the first thing in their mind is to have the sun, the sea, the coconut trees, and the
local food, you know, Mauritian food. I like to work with the local food, local vegetables, and local meat also. And local fish.
You've got to see behind of you, and you can talk to a fisherman who can bring you, every day, fresh fish. There. Very nice. You see it? This
fish, we call it dorado, dorado coryphaena.
Now, we are in Port Louis. Port Louis is the capital of our country, Mauritius. And we are situated now in the central market. I come here to
find all the ingredients, the fresh vegetable and also the spices, like curry powder, saffron, cumin, and many things, just to realize my recipe at
the hotel. This is fresh saffron that we'll use in our chicken curry.
Mauritian food, it's a little bit spicy, but all the guests who come here in the hotel, they love Mauritian food. On Thursday, we have a Mauritian
buffet with many types of foods, different variation.
Oh, it's very nice. It's very good. What do you want to eat? Indian food? Chinese food? Creole food? Tamil food? Or Muslim food?
The beauty of Mauritius is that you can have any type of food you want.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: All right. This has been THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. Thanks for watching. I'll see you tomorrow. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next.
END
