Return to Transcripts main page
Hala Gorani Tonight
Three former Trump campaign aides charged in Russia probe; Former Trump campaign adviser pleads guilty to lying to the FBI; Kenyatta wins disputed Kenyan election; Butter-loving France facing a shortage
Aired October 30, 2017 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HALA GORANI, CNN NEWS ANCHOR: Welcome to the program, I'm Hala Gorani, let's get you right to our breaking news. Huge developments unfolding in
Washington this hour after a special counsel unveiled the first charges in his investigation into Russian interference in the American election. Two
former top officials in Donald Trump's campaign just pleaded not guilty in federal court.
Paul Manafort on the left and Rick Gates on the right face charges including money laundering and conspiracy against the United States; those
allegations relate to their business dealings with a pro-Russian political party in the Ukraine. As for the White House, it responded this way just
minutes ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Today's announcement has nothing to do with the president, has nothing to do with the president's
campaign or campaign activity. The real collusion scandal as we've said several times before has everything to do with the Clinton campaign, Fusion
GPS, and Russia. There's clear evidence of the Clinton campaign colluding with Russian intelligence to spread disinformation and smear the President
to influence the election. We've been saying from day one there's been no evidence of Trump-Russia collusion and nothing in the indictment today
changes that at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: All right. And so that was Sarah Sanders. This is the line of defense of the White House. This is the message they want to get across,
there is nothing to this, that the activities that are alleged in this indictment against Paul Manafort and Rick Gates predate the electoral
campaign anyway, so they have no bearing on the president.
But another development today could make it more difficult for the White House to argue that is has "nothing to do with any of this." Special
Counsel Robert Mueller, also unveiled a guilty plea today and unlike the case against Manafort and Gates, this one directly involves the Trump
campaign.
Former campaign foreign policy advisor George Papadopoulos has admitted to making false statements. The FBI says he didn't come clean about his
repeated contacts with Russians and his attempts to set up meetings between Russian government officials and the Trump campaign. Now, he has been
talking to the FBI for weeks. Let's get right to our reporters for the very latest.
White House reporter Stephen Collinson is live in Washington. Our senior international correspondent, Clarissa Ward, is in Kiev, Ukraine. Stephen,
I want to start with you. What does this all mean for the administration, first of all?
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN REPORTER: I think the first thing it means whether Manafort and Gates are directly involved with the administration or not is
that this is going to go on for a long time. You're going to see the legal proceedings grind through possibly the rest of this president's term. The
White House has been saying that it thinks it can get through this and get on to other things very soon. That's clearly not going to happen.
I think that the issue of Gates and Manafort, although the White House is saying this happened before they were engaged on the campaign, there's
nothing to say that Mueller couldn't come back in future and charge them with something else. The gravity of the charges they are facing is also
being seen by some legal observers as a way of getting their cooperation, perhaps convincing them to turn against other people in the campaign,
further up in the campaign as Mueller pursues this issue whether there's collusion between Trump associates and Russia. So I don't think the
Manafort-Gates thing is over for the White House.
And the other, you've talked about the Papadopoulos plea, it's very interesting because it seems to show a pattern of Russian officials
approaching Trump campaign officials with the idea that they had some dirt on Hillary Clinton through her emails and we've seen that repeated in
another -- other scenarios here.
So it's a tough day for the White House. This is just the beginning I think of some of the legal action that Mueller is going to bring together.
GORANI: And Clarissa Ward in Kiev, the indictment against Manafort and Gates lists detailed allegations of dealings with the party of Viktor
Yanukovych who is the Kremlin-backed former president in Ukraine. What does this indictment tell us? What more are we learning from this
indictment?
CLARISSA WARD, CNN REPORTER: Well, the indictment, as you said, it goes into quite a few details about the relationship, the working relationship
that lasted nearly a decade between Paul Manafort and between the former president, Viktor Yanukovych who, as you mentioned, a pro-Kremlin
candidate, a controversial character by anyone's measure.
I just want to go through some of the key aspects that the indictment hits on. It says, firstly, that Manafort reportedly made tens of millions of
dollars. That is a lot of money, tens of millions of dollars during the course of this working relationship, which, as I said, lasted nearly a
decade that he worked and communicated with Yanukovych, both directly in person, but also regularly in the written form. This would appear as a
contradict a little bit what Manafort had told U.S. authorities which was essentially that he was just a liaison, that he had introduced Yanukovych
to a lobbying firm in the U.S. who would be able to further him and his political party's interests.
Also talked about in the indictment how Manafort essentially did not declare himself as the agent of a foreign government. The indictment says
quite clearly that he should have, that because of the type of work that he was carrying out, he should clearly have declared himself as an agent of
the Ukrainian government. And then it goes on, Hala, to elaborate as to the sort of scheme that Manafort orchestrated in order to launder the money
that was reportedly coming to him from the Ukrainian region's party. This involves a whole network of shell corporations, of offshore accounts that
they say constitutes, you know, a flagrant abuse of the U.S. law.
But the real issue that we start to see emerging when you read through this indictment is the closeness of the relationship between Manafort and
Yanukovych. Yanukovych, as I've said, a controversial character by anyone's measure. And I think a lot of people will ask themselves, why on
earth would the Trump campaign want to get involved with a man like Manafort who was known so well for having such a deep relationship with
Yanukovych, who was a pro-Kremlin candidate.
GORANI: Right. Actually Clarissa, you just asked my next question to Stephen. I mean, the campaign, the Trump campaign must have known last
year that Paul Manafort had this relationship with Viktor Yanukovych and his party in Ukraine; that he was lobbying on behalf of them in the United
States. In fact, he was in the spotlight of investigators a few times before the campaign even started for the presidency.
So what was -- I mean they still went into business with him and made him the campaign manager. Why is that?
COLLINSON: That's why you've got to question not just the vetting, but the decision making of someone who is the nominee of a major party entering
into that relationship. And Trump used to boast frequently how he hired the best people. I think one of the answers to the question is that there
were a lot of Republican establishment figures lining up to get behind Donald Trump. In fact he'd eviscerated much of the establishment. He was
in a time of real need.
There were a number of attempts in the sort of planning phases to try and deprive him of the nomination even after he clinched enough delegates to
win it, and there was a possibility that there could be an insurrection at the Republican National Convention. Manafort, as well as his, you know,
well-known ties to foreign governments in Washington was also known as somebody that knew the mechanics of the electoral process, of the
convention process and that was why he was such a key aide in that three- month period for Donald Trump that he served as campaign manager.
But it's certainly something that's coming back to haunt the Trump White House now, the fact that he did serve during that time.
GORANI: And by the way before we get back to Clarissa for one final question, I want to show our viewers how President Trump himself responded
to the news about Manafort this morning. It took him a while to tweet about it. But when he did he said, "Sorry, but this is years ago before
Paul Manafort was part of the Trump campaign. But why aren't Crooked Hillary and the Dems the focus?????" Then he added, "Also, there is no
COLLUSION!"
But Clarissa, you alluded to the closeness of the relationship between Paul Manafort and Viktor Yanukovych, but why is that significant? I mean,
essentially, I mean you know, the question is why should anyone care that Paul Manafort who was for several months is the campaign manager of Donald
Trump had such a close relationship with a man like Viktor Yanukovych?
WARD: Well, that's a really important question that I'm sure a lot of viewers are asking themselves. And that's why it's essential to look at
what kind of a president Viktor Yanukovych was. This was a man who after political protest erupted here against his policies in 2014 absconded to
Russia, reportedly embezzling millions and millions of dollars. He is well-known, Ukrainian politics, he's pretty corrupt across the board, but
he was well known to be one of the most corrupt leaders.
He's also very well known, as I've said, he has been in Russia ever since he left this country in 2014. He even told one television reporter that he
owed his life to President Vladimir Putin. He is in Russia at the patronage of President Vladimir Putin.
Beyond that, there are all sorts of allegations hovering over him, particularly here in Ukraine. Many think that he was responsible for
ordering riot police to fire upon those pro-western protesters back in 2014. People accused him of having his political opponents imprisoned,
most notably the former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko.
So by any stretch of the imagination, this was a leader who was well known for his brutality, for his corruption and for the closeness of his
relationship with President Vladimir Putin, Hala.
GORANI: All right, just one moment, Clarissa. We have someone appearing outside the court house in Washington. Let's listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: All right, unfortunately we don't have an audio connection here, but essentially what we were reporting today that Paul Manafort and his
close associate, Ricky Gates, both pleading not guilty to those charges leveled against them in that indictment which was 31 pages long, and that
alleges some serious wrongdoing including money laundering, false statements. This is in fact Paul Manafort's attorney, Kevin Downing.
I'm hoping we have audio now? When we do, we'll go right to it live in Washington. Checking again, okay, we don't have audio, but we will turn
that around for you as soon as we fix this technical glitch. And he just walked away. We're going to turn that around. We'll bring it to you with
any significant news lines out of that statement from the attorney for Paul Manafort.
But just recapping what we know and what we've heard there with our Clarissa Ward still in Kiev live. Thanks very much, Stephen Collinson as
well in Washington. Thanks to both of you and we'll get back to you as more news emerges from Washington there.
Those two men, and not just those two, but a man by the name of George Papadopoulos, certainly not, I'll grant you, a household name
internationally, but someone who billed himself as a foreign policy advisor for then-candidate Donald Trump who has pleaded guilty and who has been
cooperating with authorities. So it's now latest count three individuals closely associated with the campaign of now-President Donald Trump who had
been either indicted or who have pleaded guilty.
Now, let's talk about the politics today's bombshell news with Josh Rogin, a columnist with the Washington Post. So Josh, let me first start. By the
way, we still don't have the sound there from the attorney for Paul Manafort. We're going to get that in a moment. But obviously the two men
have pleaded not guilty, that is, Rick Gates and Paul Manafort. What happens now?
JOSH ROGIN, WASHINGTON POST COLUMNIST: Now, they begin a protracted litigation which could end up in a trial, but that's not necessarily the
way it's going to go. What we do know is that now over the next weeks and months, they will be operating under a different circumstance. They'll be
under indictment. They'll be restricted in terms of what they can do and what they can say.
And we don't know what Mueller has in store for them next, you know. We can be sure that he'll be pressing them for a variety of things,
information, documents, evidence. This is surely just the beginning and not the end of Mueller's work on this issue.
GORANI: All right. So, just an update there, this is what we are hearing, the attorney for Paul Manafort, no evidence that there was any collusion
with Russian operatives. We understand the government had asked for the bail to be set at $10 million and Paul Manafort just confirming that I've
heard this correctly, has been ordered under -- has been ordered to remain under house arrest, is that correct? That is correct. That's what we're
getting Josh.
Sorry. I was sort of half listening to what you were saying as I was gathering this new information here to share with our viewers. But this is
very significant. I mean, here we're talking about the former campaign manager of the now President Donald Trump who has been indicted on 12
counts including money laundering, false statements. This is all a part of a very wide-ranging investigation by Bob Mueller of possible collusion
between the Trump campaign and Russia.
The question of course is will this get to the administration? Because in this indictment, there is no mention of Donald Trump or his campaign.
ROGIN: Well, that's right. There's nothing in the indictment related to collusion regarding Manafort and Gates. Of course, there is an attempt at
collusion in the George Papadopoulos incident, but we can discuss that separately. But the charges Manafort and Gates are facing here are very,
very serious. It's not just conspiracy against the United States. It's not just violation of the FARA law when they were representing Ukrainian
interests without disclosing it. We're talking about massive money laundering in the millions of dollars.
According to the indictment, $75 million passed through accounts, 18 million of which was laundered allegedly by Manafort, 3 million by Gates.
GORANI: So Josh, let's listen to the attorney for Paul Manafort, because we have that sound now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN DOWNING, LAWYER: -- Mr. Manafort served in the Trump campaign. Today you see an indictment brought by the Office of Special Counsel that
is using a very novel theory to prosecute Mr. Manafort regarding a FARA filing. The United States government has only used that offense six times
since 1966 and only resulted in one conviction.
The second thing about this indictment that I myself find most ridiculous is the claim that maintaining offshore accounts, to bring all your funds
into the United States as a scheme to conceal from the United States is ridiculous. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Josh, you heard that. Essentially, he's saying that his client is being unjustly prosecuted. Not surprising, he's his attorney.
ROGIN: Yeah. Well, let's take those one by one. It's true that the FARA law which requires Americans to register when they're receiving money in
doing work on behalf of a foreign principle is very rarely enforced. That's a fact, but it's still the law. And if it's broken and if they can
prove that he broke it, then that's punishable. So it's not, that argument doesn't really hold water.
The second thing is that, you know, Paul Manafort is not being charged with just having a bunch of foreign bank accounts. He's being charged with not
paying taxes as he brought millions of dollars from those offshore accounts into the United States. So there're 12 different counts I think the lawyer
rebutted, two of them, ignored the other nine and, you know, this is just going to be the beginning of, again a very protracted litigation between
Manafort and Gates on the one end and then the federal government on the other.
GORANI: Also for any US citizen living abroad, I can tell you that having a foreign bank account and not reporting it to the IRS is certainly a big
deal and something that they require if indeed that is something that he failed to do.
ROGIN: Exactly. And we --
GORANI: George Papadopoulos -- yeah, go ahead.
ROGIN: No, we should also mention that if you just read through the charging documents, it's not just about having foreign bank accounts, it's
about using them in a coordinating scheme to hide income and then to transfer that income from offshore.
So there is a conspiracy charge. They seem to be denying it, but there's a ton of evidence in that document that I think the prosecutors will be
leaning on.
GORANI: Sure, yeah. It goes way beyond the failure to file reports to foreign bank account.
ROGIN: Sure.
GORANI: George Papadopoulos, I want to talk about him because he's pleaded guilty, okay? And this really does in fact, if the indictment against him
ends at a conviction of the charges listed in that indictment, would constitute potentially a link between Russia and the Trump campaign. In
the indictment against George Papadopoulos, it is alleged that he attended a national security meeting with Donald Trump and others last year, in
other words that he was not just some peripheral junior low-level campaign staffer, that this is someone who had access to the now president.
ROGIN: Yeah. A couple of things, first of all I reported on that campaign policy team extensively last year while it existed and during the
primaries, it was a much more functioning part of the Trump campaign. They had infrastructure in Washington. They had a team of advisors that weren't
in Washington including George Papadopoulos. They were producing papers and memos, some of which made it up the chain, some of which didn't. You
know, once the campaign sort of moved into the general election, they sort of discarded that policy team, took on the more traditional GOP, RNC
assistance.
So it's not accurate to say that he was not connected, but it's not accurate to say he was a big player. He was somewhere in the middle of
what he admitted to.
GORANI: But he was making promises according to the indictment, right, of being able to set up meetings and that he had connections with Russians.
ROGIN: Right, right, yes. It's very strange that you would have someone even -- by the way, Donald Trump admitted -- named him in an interview with
the Washington Post editorial board as a top campaign advisor. So they can't totally dissociate themselves from their relationship with George
Papadopoulos.
That being said, it seems that according to his own testimony in his own disclosure when he pled guilty to lying to the FBI, he was involved in
extensive attempts to set up meetings between the campaign and what he thought were people connected to Vladimir Putin, and he was trying to set
up a trip for Donald Trump to visit Vladimir Putin.
Now it also says in the documents that neither of those things actually happened. So what we have here is another attempt by a campaign official
to collude with the Russian government that seems not to have come off, right? But we don't know what we don't know.
So, right now all they've got him on is lying to the FBI about this entire affair, but now that he's cooperating, there's the potential that more
information could definitely come out.
GORANI: All right, Josh Rogin, thanks very much. Live in Washington.
ROGIN: Anytime.
GORANI: We appreciate it. We'll have a lot more on this breaking news after a break. Stay with us. You're watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: The former leader of Catalonia could be facing 30 years behind bars. Carles Puigdemont spearheaded the region's declaration of
independence from Spain. Well, as a result, Madrid has since taken back control. And now a state prosecutor wants to charge Puigdemont and his
entire former cabinet with rebellion and sedition.
Phil Black is in Barcelona, but not with us this second. We have a few technical problems with Phil. We're going to try to connect with him and
as soon as we can, we will bring Phil to you live from Barcelona. The big question out there before we get to our next story is where is Carles
Puigdemont after all? Did he show up to work today? Is there any concern on his part or on his team's part that he will be arrested after Madrid and
the Central Government has decided to take back control of many aspects of the Catalan government?
Phil Black is in Barcelona and I believe we have you back, Phil.
PHIL BLACK, CNN REPORTER: Hi, Hala, yes.
GORANI: Hi. Yeah, where is Carles.
BLACK: Well, it was an extraordinary day in a number of ways.
GORANI: Where is Carles Puigdemont? And go on also to tell us about this extraordinary day.
BLACK: Well that is one of the mysteries and perhaps extraordinary twist, where is Carles Puigdemont? According to Spanish media he's no longer in
Catalonia, but he and a number of his colleagues have travelled to Belgium for reasons that are not entirely clear. His party colleagues today, they
wouldn't tell us where he was or why he has travelled or where he may be or what he may be doing there, but unseen, unheard and as I say, widely
reported in Spanish media and Catalan media as well, he's travelled to Belgium.
Now, this is on the same day that the prosecutor general of Spain announced charges, that he will be seeking charges against him and members of his
former government, again, for sedition, for rebellion, for misusing public funds, big serious charges, potentially decades in jail. And on this same
day, his own party met without him and decided to contest the regional elections that the government has called on the 21st of December.
The other main pro-independence party in the governing or the former or recently governing alliance who is responsible for the independence
declaration, they have also said they will do the same.
So what this all means is that only a few days ago, these politicians were in full-throated roar together declaring independence unilaterally against
the will of the Spanish government. Today, they were largely unseen and silent and really dancing to the tune that had been composed by the Spanish
government in Madrid. They appear to have accepted that their government has been sacked. They've accepted to some degree that their autonomy has
been withdrawn until new elections can be held. And they're now saying they will participate in those elections. They won't boycott them.
So, so much has changed in just a few days, but as I say that very full- throated roar of rebellion, it's really drifted away to a very silent whimper come Monday morning, Hala.
GORANI: Phil Black, thanks very much. Live in Barcelona.
Allegations of sexual misconduct have engulfed the entertainment world for weeks. Now, another bombshell accusation and an apology, this time it's
Oscar-winning actor Kevin Spacey. He says he's beyond horrified to hear the account of fellow actor Anthony Rapp. Rapp says that when he was 14
years old, back in 1986, Spacey, who would have been 26 at that time, made a sexual advance at him.
Spacey tweeted that he doesn't remember the encounter, but says that if he did behave the way Rapp describes, he owes him an apology for what he calls
deeply inappropriate, drunken behavior. Let's go live to New York, CNN's Alison Kosik is following this through.
We'll get to why some people -- in fact I should say a lot of people are angry at his apology. But first, what more did Spacey have to say?
ALISON KOSIK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Okay, so interestingly enough, if you look at this sort of in a broad way, Hala, Kevin Spacey's sexuality, it's
really been one of Hollywood's worst kept secrets for a really long time, and usually when an actor comes out as gay, they are called courageous.
But in this situation, you're seeing Kevin Spacey being criticized, because they see him as trying to deflect from the real issue at hand. By also kind
of mixing his coming out with this apology, they think he's trying to sort of, you know, put people's attention into another area.
This is an Oscar-award winning actor known for his role in the Netflix series House of Cards. He's being accused of sexual misconduct, as you
said, that allegedly happened over 30 years ago with a 14-year old boy back then. Spacey was 26.
Now, we learned about this through an interview that his accuser, Anthony Rapp, also an actor, he did an interview with the online publication
BuzzFeed. He says in 1986, Spacey befriended him while they both performed on Broadway, and Spacey invited Rapp back to his Manhattan apartment one
night during a party where there were adults only there. And Rapp says at the end of the night, Spacey picked up Rapp like a groom picks up a bride
and walks over the threshold and he climbed on top of him making a sexual advance.
Now Rapp says he was able to squirm away and kind of locked this moment away in his mind for a long time, but he's gotten angry and frustrated over
the years as he's watched Spacey's success.
And the way that Spacey apologized on Twitter really, really outraged a lot of people online. If you look at Wanda Sykes, she said, "No, no, no, you
do not get to choose to hide under the rainbow." Also others also saying - - Richard Lawson, another actor saying, "For a famous person to deflect these accusations for a long-in-the-making coming out is so cruel to his
supposed new community that it stings."
And here is why because you showed us the portion of his apology where he actually did apologize. There's another portion to his apology where he
says, "In my life I've had relationships both with men and women. I have loved and had romantic encounters with men throughout my life and I choose
now to live as a gay man." So people are saying, "Wait a minute, you're also conflating the two, you're conflating this alleged sexual misconduct
with being gay." And the gay community has long battled with this perception that homosexuality is somehow linked to child molestation and by
linking the two, that perpetuates the perception. So that's causing even more outrage as well. Hala.
GORANI: Yeah. We've certainly seen it, many members of the gay community, prominent members as well, quite angry with that statement. Thanks very
much, Alison Kosik in New York.
Three former advisors for the Trump campaign facing charges in connection to the Russia investigation, a live report ahead from Russia for details on
Paul Manafort's past from Ukraine to an American indictment. And we'll be live in the Kenyan capital, Nairobi, where the country has revealed the
winner of a hotly disputed election.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Welcome back. Let's return to our breaking news. A stunning day in Washington and a cascade of developments. Three former Trump campaign
aides charged in the special investigation into the US president's campaign and Russian election interference.
The former campaign chair Paul Manafort and his associate Rick Gates pleaded not guilty just last hour. They were indicted Monday on several
charges, 12 in total, including money laundering.
Another advisor, George Papadopoulos, took a plea deal earlier this month after admitting that he lied to federal authorities over his contacts with
Russians during the campaign.
Just a short time ago, Paul Manafort's lawyer spoke. Let's listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN DOWNING, ATTORNEY FOR PAUL MANAFORT: The second thing about this indictment that I myself find is ridiculous is a claim that maintaining
offshore accounts to bring all your funds into the United States as a scheme to conceal from the United States government is ridiculous. Thank
you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: All right. There you have it. Let's get more on the legal angle. Joining me now are CNN chief legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. And on the
politics of today's news, the director of the University of Virginia Center for Politics Larry Sabato.
So, Jeffrey, we heard from Kevin Downing, this the attorney for Paul Manafort, saying it's ridiculous maintaining offshore accounts doesn't mean
necessarily there was any kind of scheme to hide money from authorities.
This is really one of two lines of defense that he had for reporters gathered outside the courthouse today.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, he had several lines of defense, the gist of which is that he had no - that Paul Manafort had no
criminal intent. He was simply a businessman doing what lobbyists do. He was assisting the Ukrainian interests in trying to stay in power.
The charges are very different. The charges are that he lied about what his connections were to those Ukrainian interests and he conspired with
others to try to cover up what he was doing in the Ukraine and hide the money from both the taxman and the government generally.
GORANI: And the other charges, including money laundering, false statements and also failure to register as an agent of a foreign
government, what could be the defense now for Paul Manafort because, presumably, you don't bring forth an indictment like this without having
evidence of wire transfers of money that made its way into the United States without being declared to the IRS. I mean, you have trails for this
type of thing.
[15:35:20] TOOBIN: Right. The usual defense in white-collar cases is not to dispute that the events took place, but simply to say this was business
as usual, I wasn't trying to hide anything, this was how I operated.
But, remember, this is a very long conspiracy alleged by the government, almost 10 years, 2006 to 2017. And during that time, he was, for four
months, the chairman of the Trump for President campaign.
So, the fact that he is charged with participating in a criminal enterprise while he was running this campaign is a very startling thing. And that's
what makes these charges so explosive.
GORANI: Larry Sabato, when you heard the news today that the two men - I'm talking here about Manafort and Gates indicted, another one, George
Papadopoulos, a foreign policy advisor to then candidate Donald Trump, pleading guilty to lying to the FBI, what came to your mind as a historian?
LARRY SABATO, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR POLITICS, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Yes. And as an old person. Actually, Nixon came to mind because I believe
- and, Jeff, correct me if I'm wrong - but I believe the last time senior officials of a president's successful campaign were indicted for anything
was under Richard Nixon.
And, of course, many of them ended up being convicted and had jail time. So, that's what occurred to me because it is not a good day for any
president when a former campaign manager is indicted.
And the other two may end up being more significant, particular Papadopoulos, because he's already plead guilty and he lied to the FBI.
And that would suggest perhaps he's doing some dealing.
GORANI: But, Jeffrey - yes, go ahead.
TOOBIN: But if I can just add, I think that's true. And the reason the Papadopoulos guilty plea is so significant is that it deals with actions he
took during the Trump campaign.
The president and his allies were saying in the beginning of the day, well, this Manafort stuff only has to do with Manafort's private business. But
the Papadopoulos guilty plea involves his lies to the FBI about what he was doing for the Trump campaign with Russia, which is the core of the
investigation that Mueller has been assigned to undertake.
So, I agree that the Papadopoulos guilty plea may turn out to be legally and politically more significant than the other.
GORANI: Because, Jeffrey, for all our viewers watching us around the world, they hear the news that there's a 12-count indictment against Paul
Manafort and his associate Rick Gates and they think, aha, here we have it, the link, the proof somehow, if this turned out to be proven in a court of
law, that there was collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.
But there is no mention at all of Donald Trump or his campaign in that indictment against Manafort and Gates.
TOOBIN: And I think that's a very important point to make that that indictment of Manafort and Gates does not mention the Trump campaign and
does not question his behavior other than the fact that he was campaign chairman during some of the time he was engaging in this other criminal
activity.
However, it is not completely unrelated to the Russia investigation because the activity that Manafort is alleged to be covering up in that case is his
close alliance with the Ukrainian interests that are very much tied to the Vladimir Putin administration.
So, the fact that he was making all this money off of Putin allies is highly relevant to the broader nature of this investigation.
GORANI: Sure. Viktor Yanukovych, very, very close to the Kremlin. In fact, he lives in Russia now after protesters forced him out of office a
few years ago in Ukraine.
And, Larry Sabato, what do you think now is going on inside the Trump administration?
ZAKARIA: Well, you saw some frustrated tweets almost immediately from President Trump, which contradicted the stories we've seen over the last
week that, somehow, he had been convinced by his lawyers not to tweet about the subject. He can't help himself on that. That's a mistake probably in
and of itself.
I think Trump and Trump's associates in the White House know that this is not the end, it's the beginning.
GORANI: Larry Sabato, thanks very much as always. Jeffrey Toobin, a pleasure. Thanks to both of you.
[15:40:00] Let's go live to Moscow now for reactions. Senior international correspondent Matthew Chance joins us from the Russian capital.
And I want to talk about George Papadopoulos here because this is the one connection that one of the three men now, who are part of this
investigation, the connection with Russia that has been admitted to by George Papadopoulos.
What kind of - how significant is it?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think it's potentially very significant. On the one hand, you've got the Paul
Manafort indictments and the Rick Gates indictments, which the White House can legitimately distance itself from, in the sense that these allegations
refer to a time before Manafort was involved with the Trump campaign.
But with George Papadopoulos, we're talking about a situation where this foreign policy advisor to the Trump team has confessed to lying to the FBI
about his contacts with Russian nationals and other figures connected with the Kremlin during his time as that foreign policy advisor.
And, of course, the indictment says that he sort of met with various people, three of them - one of them, a Russian woman who was believed to
have connections at the highest level of the Kremlin, a London-based professor who is unnamed, and another sort of senior figure connected with
the Russian Foreign Ministry.
The indictment shows that Papadopoulos learned from those connections that Russia had, what it calls, dirt on Hillary Clinton in the form of thousands
of emails.
Remember, this was something that emerged months before the very damaging email leaks took place that were hacked from the Democratic Party, talking
about the inner machinations of the Democratic Party candidate selection process.
Papadopoulos is also now, it seems, because of this plea bargain, I think as some of your guests have already mentioned, cooperating very closely
with the special counsel, and so he is likely to have discussed with him and told them who else in the Trump team was aware of his contact with
these various Russian contacts and what sort of greenlight they gave him to proceed, Hala.
GORANI: All right. Thanks very much, Matthew Chance, in Moscow. Let's get the security angle on this. CNN national security analyst Juliette
Kayyem joins me from Cambridge, Massachusetts. She's professor at Harvard there.
So, Juliette, first of all, some of the charges sound extremely grave. Explain to an international audience, I mean, being charged with conspiracy
against the United States. That sounds like a terribly serious charge. I mean, is it the same as charging someone with being - with committing
treason against his or her own country?
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: It's close. And so, just to make clear, across the breadth of the indictments today against three
individuals, there is a range of claims.
There is big fish like Manafort accused of serious crimes related to sort of his financial dealings and various acts - Congressional acts that he
violated in terms of his financial backing to a character that no one - many people had never heard of before.
A guy - Papadopoulos - sorry, I pronounced it wrong - is someone who appears to now be cooperating with Mueller. So, taken as a whole, the
specific charges, to be honest, are less relevant than what does it expose about Mueller's theory of going forward.
I have been saying for some time, Mueller needed time because the Republican Congress was trying to close the case. It wasn't clear that
Donald Trump was going to fire him. He just bought himself a lot of time.
What this says to anyone who may have been involved with collusion, financial dealings or lying is you're in trouble, right? In other words,
if you come forward now, we will be nice to you. And if you don't, you will face jail.
And that's what all of today is about.
GORANI: Absolutely. But collusion and failing to report as a foreign agent because you're lobbying on behalf of Yanukovych, the former president
of Ukraine, are very different things. How would you - define exactly for our, in this particular context, what collusion would look like, what it
would take to get to that level, to that type of charge?
KAYYEM: It's a great question. So, right now, what we know is that there were meetings admitted to, right, that between people who represented the
Trump campaign and people from Russia who alleged to represent the government of Russia regarding emails about Hillary Clinton.
What we don't know - and we got a sense of the White House's pushback is what we don't know was he being a free agent or was he acting on behalf of
the campaign. There is evidence in the indictment that he was not acting as a free agent.
[15:45:15] And I think Mueller did that purposefully. I think he wants to sort of show his hand a little bit and say, look, he's been cooperating for
several months now and you need to come forward.
Now, the truth is, as you know, collusion is not necessarily a crime. We don't know the underlying crime that Mueller may charge against. But
obstructing injustice is.
So, anyone who obstructed this investigation is still subject to it. I guess I should say, overall, this is worse - this is not as bad as it
could've been for the White House. But I have to be honest, it's worse than even I anticipated because the indictment is a hint of what Mueller
may have. And if you are in the White House and know anything, you've got to be talking to your lawyer right now, wondering should I come forward.
GORANI: Certainly. Maybe there were some nervous people there. Just one thing I find confusing. I mean, Paul Manafort knew and had a close
relationship with Viktor Yanukovych for close to a decade. How did he do that and lobby on his behalf and on his party's behalf for so long without
ever having to register or his failure to register not being noticed or an issue for so long?
KAYYEM: It's a great point. And actually, it's not addressed in the indictment. I can't explain it either because the second he became
campaign chairman, you would've thought that this would have been made clear and investigators, at that time, right, the administration was the
Obama administration, might have come forward.
But, remember, this investigation has been going on well before Donald Trump was president. And so, it may very well be that the moment that
Manafort becomes a public figure, then that investigation begins. And it's clear from the indictment that they were looking at stuff pre-election day.
So, no excuse for him being able to do this for ten years. But in the end, I have to be honest with you, I think Manafort stuff, the indictment is
going to be less significant than some of the other stuff that Mueller hinted at today in the disclosures.
GORANI: All right. Thanks, as always, Juliette Kayyem for joining us. Appreciate it. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Two highly controversial elections. Only one winner. Kenya's current president Uhuru Kenyatta has won the country's election rerun. OK,
was not an on-the-edge-of-your-seat thriller or anything. He had no opponent.
Voting was mired in delays, bloodshed and low voter turnout. Yet Kenyatta has picked up an overwhelming 98 percent of the vote.
As we mentioned, his opponent, Raila Odinga, said he would not participate in the election because of the irregularities were still a problem.
[15:50:02] Let's go straight to Farai Sevenzo. He is in Nairobi for us tonight. So, how tense is the situation there? Must be concerned for more
violence.
FARAI SEVENZO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: At the moment, it's pretty dull actually, Hala. Those celebratory scenes we saw earlier on, back in
August, they're not around anymore.
Mr. Kenyatta took 7.3 million of the votes of 7.6 million of the people who turned out to vote. Now, bear in mind, in Kenya, there are 19.6 million
eligible to vote. So, it's a very low number indeed.
And local commentators have likened it to a loveless marriage, akin to - it should only breed resentment and end up in bitter divorce.
Of course, it puts real pressure on the legitimacy of this election. But Mr. Kenyatta acknowledged that. He said, when he took the podium, that,
yes, his victory was mired in controversy and he expects to go back to the courts that will be challenged legally.
But, of course, Hala, remember, the judiciaries on very shaky grounds. From their momentous times on September 1 when they announce these
elections, two months later, only two judges could turn up in the judiciary to hear an urgent appeal to delay these elections.
So, which begs the question, will they get their spine back? Or has their backbone been irretrievably shattered by the events of the last two months?
GORANI: When you're saying it's dull in the sense that there is no celebratory fireworks and things like that, but there is still so much
tension, especially in the areas where the supporters of those rival candidates, Odinga and Kenyatta, live side by side.
I mean, it's been an issue, some of that violence. And in fact, some of the supporters of Odinga have blamed some of the supporters of Kenyatta of
targeting them physically with violence.
SEVENZO: You're absolutely right. The ethnic divisions are widely seen. They are there. I mean, they are quite open.
When I say that, I mean, the fact that it was such an expected result, nothing happened.
On the point of violence, it's still very, very tense. I mean, just as we looked at the bureau on Friday night, there was trouble in (INAUDIBLE)
where a shopkeeper I spoke to told me that, in 2007, his shop and bar and butchery were burned down, and it happened again on Friday night. That's
ten years on.
So, it's very real fears, is that if this result is not accepted, which many people know it will not be, the politicians have to do something to
cull the rising anger. In Mr. Odinga's strongholds, 12 million people, Hala, did not vote for Mr. Kenyatta. Only 7.3 million did.
So, which leaves the question, how can he be able to? Is he able to? Or is he pursuing the Jubilee Party line of getting into power and solidify
his second term?
GORANI: Thank you so much, Farai Sevenzo in Nairobi. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: It's being called the croissant crisis, I'm afraid. And French chefs and home cooks are not taking it lightly or lightly salted. There's
not enough butter to go around in France and there are a number of reasons why. Here's Jim Bittermann.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JULIA CHILD, CHEF: Now, here comes a very important step which is softening the butter.
[15:55:01] JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Anyone who remembers Julia Child whacking the daylights out of a stick of butter on her TV show, "The French Chef", also will know she
wasn't angry at it, she loved the stuff, saying as the French often do, "With enough butter, anything is good."
But if chefs here seem to be treating their butter better these days, it's because there is not enough.
CHRISTOPHE VASSEUR, BAKER: When we ask to the supplier, we want to buy 200 kilos of butter, they answer maybe 150, but not 200.
BITTERMANN: And a butter shortage in a nation that consumes more butter than any other in the world, 8 kilos or about 18 pounds per person per
year, a shortage is a real crisis.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Cooking without butter, eating without butter, it's unthinkable for me.
BITTERMANN: But don't blame these guys. They've been doing their job. It's more a question of how the government has churned the butter market
over the past few years, spreading milk subsidies too thickly and then thinning them to next to nothing.
And as a consequence, supplies have gone up and down, while prices have gone down and up. A ton of butter now costs more than double what it did
in the early part of this year.
Christophe Vasseur, who each day turns out a thousand croissants and other leafy pastries at his Paris bakery, has had to pass along the increased
cost to his customers. A croissant is 10 cents more today than it was in September.
VASSEUR: The second pile of butter we're going to put later -
BITTERMANN: Because 30 percent of the content of one of those pastries is pure butter. Vasseur believes part of the increased appetite for butter
stems from new health studies, which have improved the product's fatty image.
VASSEUR: Everybody now is saying, oh, we should have butter on a daily diet a little bit. But on the daily life means that the demand is
exploding. And on top of that, last explanation, some new markets opened like China, like Southeast Asia, like Japan.
BITTERMANN: But improving the butter situation is a slippery challenge, especially with the end of the year approaching when the French really chew
their fat.
Perhaps to avoid a run on dwindling supplies, something that could lead to a butter meltdown, the government has been trying to be very reassuring
about the situation, saying it has it in hand and that supplies will be back to normal before the holidays. But professionals are not so sure, and
some are taking things into their own hands.
Something Vasseur is happy to show you in his refrigerator.
VASSEUR: So, usually, I ordered every week, I receive like two or three. So, I had to order for two months, because I don't know whether in two
weeks' time, they're going to be able to supply me. So -
BITTERMANN: Observers here say it's just unthinkable that butter shortages might lead to rationing for the holidays. As one headline writer put it,
"sacre bleu."
Jim Bittermann, CNN, Paris.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: This has been THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. I'm Hala Gorani. "The Lead" with Jake Tapper is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
