Return to Transcripts main page
Hala Gorani Tonight
CNN Investigation Reveals A Startling Rise in Anti-Semitism In Europe; Israeli Prime Minister Reacts to CNN Report; White House Answers Questions on Khashoggi Murder; Manafort Met with Assange in Ecuadorian Embassy, Lied to Mueller. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired November 27, 2018 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00] HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London I'm Hala Gorani. Tonight, shocking and alarming. CNN investigation
reveals a rise in anti-Semitism in Europe. Reaction from world leaders has been swift. We have an exclusive interview with the Israeli prime minister
coming up. And a dramatic turn in Robert Mueller's Russia investigation. Former trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort lied to investigators. Is his
deal with the Mueller team dead now? Also, this hour, a standoff on the high seas. Are Ukraine and Russia really risking all-out war at this
stage? We are live in Kiev for the latest.
First, before we get to all of that, we are monitoring the White House press briefing. You are looking at live pictures of that now. We are
waiting I should say to hear more from press secretary Sarah Sanders, of course, expected to take questions from reporters. It hasn't happened in
month, importantly. There's National Security Advisor John Bolton at the podium now. We had Economic Policy Advisor Larry Kudlow who did not take
questions about the General Motors planned layoffs. He was talking about the G20 summit
Let's get back now to that exclusive CNN investigation that is provoking a stunned reaction from leaders and lawmakers around the world. From
negative stereotypes about Jews to people who haven't even heard of the holocaust, Europe is dealing with an alarming, new rise in anti-Semitism
and we at CNN have uncovered exactly to what degree. In a moment as I mentioned we'll get a response to the Israeli prime minister who reacted
just hours after our investigation was released. But first, take a look at some of the findings yourself from our chief international correspondent
Clarissa Ward.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: To give us our unprecedented look at anti-Semitism in Europe, we spoke to more than 7,000
European citizens across these seven countries. 44 percent said they believe anti-Semitism is a growing problem in their country. With 40
percent saying Jewish people are at risk of racist violence there. 63 percent, around two thirds of the people we spoke to agree that
commemorating the holocaust helps ensure that such atrocities will never happen again and awareness of the genocide seems to be fading. Of the
people in the 18 to 34 age bracket we spoke to, almost 2/5 said they had not heard of the holocaust or had just a little knowledge of it. The
situation is especially bad in France. 8 percent of people we poke to there said they had never heard of the holocaust. That's around 5 million
people in France alone. More than double the population of Paris. The international holocaust remembrance alliance spells out what anti-Semitism
is with 11 specific examples. One is the myth that Jewish people control global media, economies and governments. In Europe, 28 percent responded
that Jewish people had too much influence in finance and business across the world. A view that was most common in Poland and Hungary. Europe's
understanding of how many Jewish people there are in the world is also way off the mark. 16 percent of respondents thought that Jewish people make up
at least a fifth of the global population. According to Pugh Research, it's 100th of that. Around .2 percent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, Clarissa Ward joins me now. In a moment, we are going do get to the Israeli prime minister but just fascinating numbers here.
WARD: Fascinating and deeply troubling. We couldn't put all of them into that concise explainer piece. 19 percent of Hungarians say they have an
unfavorable view of Jews altogether. That's nearly a fifth of the country. 18 percent of Europeans say that they believe the root of anti-Semitism in
the country is the every day behavior of Jewish people. These are shocking and troubling numbers.
[14:05:00] GORANI: We'll get into the details but I mentioned and I want you to listen to the interview with me, the Israeli prime minister was
asked about this CNN report just a few hours after it was released and this is what he told us.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Prime Minister Netanyahu, thank you for sitting down with us. Anti-Semitism in Europe is nothing new and the
results of the survey are striking. More than a quarter of Europeans believe that Jews have too much influence in politics and finance. 20
percent believe it's a response to every day action of Jews. You meet leaders of Europe there. Are you surprised?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER, ISRAEL: I'm concerned. Because I think anti-Semitism is an ancient disease and when it rears its head, it
attacks the Jews and sweeps into the societies as has happened obviously in mid century Europe, first in Germany and then throughout all of Europe and
the consequences were horrible. Yes, I'm concerned. But I think we have to fight it and we are fighting it. And some of the -- most with European
countries and governments I commend them for fighting anti-Semitism. They're right.
LIEBERMANN: It is easy to sit here and say never again. Every Holocaust Memorial Day. Do you see the concrete actions that need to happen on the
part of European countries?
NETANYAHU: Let's distinguish between the sources of anti-Semitism. There's old in Europe that came from the extreme right and that's still
around. But there's also new anti-Semitism from the extreme left and also the radical Islamic pockets in Europe that spew forth the lies and slander
of Israel. The only democracy in the region, the only one that has courts, human rights, rights for all religions, gays, everything, I mean, the whole
thing is ridiculous. The one carrier of European values in the Middle East is absurd. And it's absurd twice. Not only because of what I just said
but because 6 million Jews were annihilated on the soil of Europe and to have anti-Semitism in Europe is a particular -- particularly offensive
absurdity of history. So yes, I'm concerned with that. Again, what do I see? Number one, I see European governments. I spoke to Merkel, Macron
and may and others. They're putting up a fight. I'm seeing this in eastern Europe. I saw Victor Orban in Hungary opening a center. There's a
conference against anti-Semitism. That's encouraging. The other side of it is education. You have to educate people. In your survey, you know,
good chunk, a third of the people, hardly knew anything about the holocaust. I think education is important. And I think a strong forceful
position is important. I'll tell you what else is important. State of Israel is important because when we had no state, we were completely
defenseless against anti-Semitic forces. Today we have a state. We have a capacity to stand up for ourselves and to defend ourselves, and that
ultimately is the best guarantor against anti-Semitism.
LIEBERMANN: Countries where anti-Semitic rhetoric used in every day politics and they have good relations with Israel, the leaders seem to have
good relations with you. How do you reconcile that?
NETANYAHU: There are old tendencies to be fought. It's like a chronic disease. It can be fatal if you don't challenge it and it can be contained
and reduced if you do. That's what I expect governments and leaders to do, and most of them actually do it.
LIEBERMANN: What about when the leaders both use that anti-Semitic imagery?
NETANYAHU: I don't think they should. I don't think they do. I think that ultimately the real issue is can we tolerate the idea that people say
that Israel doesn't have a right to exist? Which I think is the ultimate anti-Semitic issue. You know? The Jewish people will be living in Israel.
There are 6 million Jews in Israel. So, the new anti-Semites say this. We are not against Jews. We are just against the state of Israel. That's
like I would say, well, I eat not against French people. I don't think there should be France. France shouldn't exist. So, anti-Semitism and
anti-Zionism, the idea that Israel doesn't have the Jewish people don't have a right for a state, that's the ultimate anti-Semitism of today. I
talk about Zionism.
[14:10:00] We are sitting here in this interview about 200 meters from Mt. Zion. It is the mountain in the center of Jerusalem where King David
proclaimed Jerusalem as the capital of the Jewish people 3,000 years ago.
Theodore Herzl, the modern Moses that led our people here called this national movement Zionism based on this mountain right here. So, when
people say, well, I'm not an anti-Semite, they're saying I don't think the Jewish people should have a state. And the Iranians say it more bluntly.
Not only don't have a state but annihilate the 6 million that are here. We'll deny the holocaust and then planning another holocaust. That ain't
going to happen because we won't let it happen. But I think that anti- Semitism has to be exposed. Anti-Israel policies of the kind that say, not criticism, that we can accept. You know? Everybody can be criticized.
But to say you don't have a right to have your own state? We who have been here for 3,000 years, actually 4,000, closer to 4,000. If you include
Abraham. We don't have a right to exist? If we don't have a right to exist then nobody has a right to exist. I think that that particular
prejudice against the Jewish people has to be countered and I'm glad to see leaders like the President of the Czech Republic who was just here saying
if we betray Israel we betray ourselves and we said in a previous speech, he said I'm a Jew because the Jewish people carry the values of western
civilization and I -- I identify with that. I think there's -- this is the deepest meaning of anti-Semitism. It really goes against the whole idea of
the development of western civilization and of human enlightenment and freedom. Israel is not above criticism but the idea that we're a standard
and especially the idea that we don't have a right to exist, well, you know, frankly, I'll combat it. If people don't like it, we're here. We're
going to stay here.
LIEBERMANN: Are you confident about the future of Jews in Europe?
NETANYAHU: I think it has to be protected. And we expect every government to act to protect Jews just as they would act to protect anyone living
there. Many are. Individual Jews have a choice. They can always come here. But we respect their individual choice but I also expect and
actually see that the governments of Europe by and large I have to say just about every one of them acts to fend off these attacks because they're
wrong if their own right and dangerous for the society at large and I'm glad to see this policy. Pretty much across the board.
LIEBERMANN: Prime minister, thank you for your time.
NETANYAHU: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: That was our Oren Lieberman talking to Netanyahu about this report. You were telling me what you found most surprising, among these
findings, that so many people in 2018 don't really know anything about the holocaust in Europe.
WARD: This was definitely the most striking component of the polling. When we first got it back, all of us sort of scratched our heads saying,
hold on. This can't be possible. You can't grow up in Europe, attend school here and say that you have no knowledge or just very little
knowledge of the holocaust. This is an inevitable consequence of what happens when memory fades, survivors of the holocaust start to die. But I
also think it speaks to some darker tendencies which is a growth in the number of people who want to minimize the holocaust or perhaps put a more
positive spin on it. This is one of these insidious tropes, as well, that we have seen occurring in different places across Europe and it's a real
cause for concern because most people do agree that remembering the holocaust, commemorating it, taking the time to combat anti-Semitism and
prevent similar types of general side -- genocides.
GORANI: The question of why. It comes from certainly not just one group but from many. So, the solution might not be one size fits all but what
can be done?
WARD: I think there's a number of things that can be done and to be fair as Prime Minister Netanyahu said, some European leaders are already taking
pretty strong steps to do them.
[14:15:00] For example, Germany has earlier this year appointed an anti- Semitism czar. This is the first time of this role. Felix Klein. You'll be hearing more from him throughout the week. He is working on creating a
nationwide network for reporting anti-Semitism. He's working on improving education in schools. He is working on issues of integration relating to
the different communities. In France, they have also appointed someone as a ministerial level, not specifically for anti-Semitism but hate. They're
very much focused on trying to combat hate speech online. As you said, the very nature of anti-Semitism, the fact it isn't a single group that's
responsible although I would say in Germany, for example, 90 percent of anti-Semitic attacks are coming from the far right and more broadly
speaking this is coming from different ideologies, different parts of society and difficult to come up with a solution or effective tool for
combatting it.
GORANI: You mentioned Felix Klein and I want to share some reaction to this report. This is the German government's anti-Semitism czar. He said,
"The results of the CNN survey are appalling. Anti-Semitism is a threat for any Democratic, open society."
You mentioned also the French lawmaker in charge of equality who said, "The findings of this study in Europe published by CNN are alarming. In France,
the increase in anti-Semitic acts, which was 69 percent over the first few months of 2018, as well as the increase in homophobic acts is an urgent
concern for the government." Finally, the Representative Council of Jewish Institutions of France saying. The CNN poll shows that anti-Semitism is
profoundly anchored in Europe but is evolving as a multiform disease." I wonder in a country like Hungary where people pulled for this study, it's
not just the Jewish minority. There's an overall rise in hate and bigotry.
WARD: This is an important point to make. The focus of our study and our polling and our investigation was very much on anti-Semitism and did
include questions on the questionnaire about other minorities and how they were perceived. In Hungary, particularly, the results were pretty dire.
Very strongly unfavorable towards not just Jewish people but also migrants, towards Muslim people, towards Roma people. There's a sense I think that
not just that this is a growing problem, that the problem maybe been there for quite sometime but that we now live in times where politically it is no
longer considered a taboo to give air to the ugly ideas and that that's emboldened the forces driving some of them.
GORANI: Right. Well in Hungary, the prime minister ran a whole campaign targeting George Soros, the wealthy Jewish businessman and philanthropist.
Clarissa, you will be meeting with members of the Jewish community for questioning their future in Germany. This will air tomorrow on the
program. Here's a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WARD: Christian Weissberger explains that is neo-Nazis are finding new ways to express the same old hatred and he should know. He used to be a
right-wing extremist himself.
CHRISTIAN WEISSBERGER, FORMER RIGHT- WING EXTREMIST: I would say that it is a form of anti-Semitism that disguises themselves. They don't talk
about the Jew but Zionists, the globalists or the bankers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: So, this will air tomorrow and the rest of the week, as well.
WARD: France, Poland, we're going to be talking more about this.
GORANI: It is a shadow over Europe, anti-Semitism in 2018. These are Clarissa's exclusive reports working a long time on this project. And I
really look forward to seeing the rest of your reporting.
Let's turn to U.S. politics now. The White House is holding its first press briefing in nearly a month. We are monitoring developments. The
U.S. economic chief talked up the idea of a deal with China and comes with tensions with the U.S. border with Mexico as President Trump lashes out as
the Russia probe, as well as some major developments involving his former campaign chairman. Let's get reaction. Stephen Collinson joins me from
Washington. First briefing in a month. What have we learned?
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We got interesting details of the G20 summit in Argentina. Larry Kudlow talking
about the possibility of a deal with China and really setting the table for what looks like a very tough dinner meeting between President Trump and
President Xi saying that China still needed to make concessions on issues like intellectual property, tech transfers and tariffs. And he threatened
that if the Chinese weren't willing to do a deal the president was ready to levy another $267 billion in tariffs on China at the beginning of next
year.
[14:20:00] And he also made a comment which -- in which he said that the U.S. economy is far stronger than the Chinese economy and clearly sending
tough messages to Beijing and we found out that among the global leaders, the President will hold talks with at the weekend, is President of Turkey.
Of course, that's the first meeting since the diplomatic crisis over the murder of Jamal Khashoggi in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.
GORANI: And the National Security Adviser Bolton was talking before Sarah Sanders. He was asked if he listened to the Khashoggi tape that the Turks
say proves that Khashoggi was brutally murdered inside that consulate. No, I haven't listened to it he replied. Why do you think I should? What do
you think I'll learn from it? This came after his defense of the President's approach to the Saudi Arabia question, if you will, after the
intelligence agencies in the U.S. determined that potentially it had gone much higher in the hierarchy, the order to kill the dissident.
COLLINSON: Yes. And I think this is a sign that the White House really had hoped that the President's statement last week in which he said that it
would be wrong to scrap the relations with Saudi Arabia over this affair. They wanted that to end it and it's clearly not going to happen. Bolton
said that, you know, he wouldn't learn anything he couldn't learn from a transcript. And he also did say, however, that the President won't meet
the Saudi crown prince at the g20. Some people had thought there might be an encounter between them. He said the President's schedule which also
includes meetings with the leaders Japan, South Korea, Germany was too full at this stage to allow that kind of meeting so even though he will be
meeting Erdogan he won't be meeting Mohammad bin Salman at the G20.
GORANI: All right. Thank you very much.
When we come back, Donald Trump's former campaign chairman is in more trouble than he was before. Prosecutors say he's been lying to them. How
does that impact his plea deal? The full story in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Now to a dramatic turn in Mueller's Russia investigation. The special counsel's office says the plea deal with former Trump campaign
manager Paul Manafort is dead.
[14:25:00] Prosecutors say Manafort violated his agreement to cooperate by repeatedly lying and there's yet another development involving Manafort.
The "Guardian" newspaper said he met multiple times with WikiLeaks founder Assange in London including at least one meeting months before WikiLeaks
began publishing stolen e-mails from the Democratic party. Let's talk more about the troubles surrounding Paul Manafort. Jessica Schneider is in
Washington and Nina Dos Santos is with me here in London. Do we know what Manafort lied about?
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: We don't know that, Hala. Prosecutors aren't saying. They're saying they're going to reveal that at
a later court date. But the real significance in this is that the cooperation is now called off and the special counsel prosecutors want the
judge to move toward the sentencing immediately and really means any leniency Manafort might have gotten for those two counts he pleaded to that
would be erased and could get the full sentence on those. Prosecutors could add back the other charges they dropped when the plea deal was
reached and he was found guilty in a separate case in Virginia and facing 20 years for those 8 counts, and the sentencing has been stalled while he
cooperated but now, he'll be facing sentencing there real soon.
Really all of this is a big deal for Paul Manafort. We know he lied multiple times. Not sure what but he's facing the rest of his life in
prison so you have to wonder here, Hala, why did he lie to prosecutors as they allege. His lawyers are saying he didn't lie. His lawyers put it
this way saying Manafort believes he provided truthful information so there's going to be some playout of that in court. But you know, there's
also a chance, here, Hala, Paul Manafort is banking on a Presidential pardon and giving him less incentive to cooperate. Quite a significant
development in the filing by the special counsel. That was last night and interesting to play out here because the team will have to present their
evidence of how Paul Manafort lied and in turn sort of reveal part of their investigation when they eventually end up in court and then do their
sentencing submissions, as well.
GORANI: Right. And, Nina, you're here with me. "The Guardian" here is reporting that Manafort visited Assange and this is interesting. A few
months before WikiLeaks published the stolen Democratic party e-mails.
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN EUROPE EDITOR: Yes, that's right. The timing, Democratic e-mails were published in about July of 2016. Well, "The
Guardian" alleging multiple meetings between a period of 2013 all the way to 2016 and a crucial meeting that they say took place in March of 2016.
The reason for that timing being important, Hala, by then Paul Manafort was already managing the Trump campaign and also it was only a number of months
before that key leak of information on the -- from the Democratic national committee service. Important information that some people said may have
had an impact on the U.S. election so this connection hasn't yet been known. But I should also point out that WikiLeaks is coming out with
fierce denials on Twitter saying they're willing to bet "The Guardian" is wrong on the story and they're willing to bet its editor's head that
Manafort never met Assange. So, we'll see whether or not who's right on this.
GORANI: WikiLeaks saying no way it happened. He didn't meet Assange because "The Guardian" saying they met three times over the years. And,
Jessica, one last one to you. If, indeed, by lying this plea deal is dead, does this mean Manafort basically can clam up and refuse to cooperate since
whatever agreement he reached with the prosecutors is now gone?
SCHNEIDER: Yes. The plea deal is over. The prosecutors basically put the kabosh on that saying that Manafort lied multiple times. It will be
interesting to see because Manafort was largely believed to be the special counsel's star witness. Perhaps, you know, Mueller's team might use him in
grand jury or any sort of trial but now there's little chance to use him seeing as they have called him a liar in the court papers. You know, but
the fact that they're accusing Manafort of lying but they could have other evidence, other documents, other interviews that prove Paul Manafort was
lying and they may -- they may use that, you know, in their court appearance before the judge. But Yes. Manafort at this point, he doesn't
really have to talk anymore. It's nothing left to lose. They called off the plea deal, the cooperation. And they're going to go full steam ahead
coming to sentencing here so Manafort could really face the rest of his life in prison.
[14:30:00] GORANI: Jessica Schneider in Washington, Nina Dos Santos in London, thank you both.
Another voice casts doubt on Theresa May's Brexit plan and this time it's thousands of kilometers away. Not good for the prime minister. What
President Trump said and how Britain's prime minister responded.
Also, a confrontation at sea has raised tensions between Russia and Ukraine. Where it may all be leading coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:30:10] HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: If there's one person who doesn't need an extra headache right now, it is Theresa May. But while
Britain's prime minister is traveling across the U.K, trying to sell a deal that it seems no one likes a big brand-new headache is exactly what she
got. And it came from all the way across the Atlantic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Sounds like a great deal for the E.U., and I think we have to do this. I think we have to take a look
at seriously whether or not the U.K. is allowed to trade. Because, you know, right now if you look at the deal, they may not be able to trade with
us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, that wasn't what Mrs. May was hoping to talk about today but she had a response for the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THERESA MAY, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: What the declaration makes clear is we will have an independent trade policy. We will be able to strike trade
deals around the rest of the world. We are talking -- well, we've had a -- we have a working group that is working with the United States, looking at
exactly this issue. But also, we're talking with others around the rest of the world about the possibility of trade deals there, as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: So, as I mentioned, not helpful for the prime minister, but was President Trump in essence correct? Let's bring in Richard Quest in New
York for more.
So, Richard, he said the current deal is good for the E.U., trying to sow discord as he sometimes does, that this deal may mean that the U.K. may not
be able to trade with the United States.
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Yes. By trade, of course, he doesn't mean sell things. What he's talking about is the U.K. may not be
able to do an independent trade deal with the U.S. And here's where it gets complicated, Hala. It's a question of if. The big if. Because it's
if the U.K. is unable to strike a proper trade deal with the E.U. during the implementation period.
If they don't -- it's all about the backstop, remember, with Northern Ireland. It's a question of if the U.K., because it can't settle Northern
Ireland, it can't get its trade relationship sorted out, in that case under the deal, the U.K. stays within the E.U. trade frame. That is the
scenario. Look. It's highly complex. But to put --
GORANI: Yes. I get that. But even if -- even if they strike a trade deal, the E.U. is still the U.K. By far, the U.K's biggest market. A lot
more than the United States. So they have to -- but they have to abide whether they like it or not by the standard.
So for instance, in terms of consumer goods, in terms of meat, in terms of pharmaceuticals, all those standards are very different in the E.U. than in
the U.S. So, are they going to have two sets of products? I mean, they're going to have to whether they like it or not abide by the standards of the
E.U., aren't they?
[14:35:04] QUEST: This is the period of the implementation period during this so-called political declaration where the U.K. negotiates what the
future relationship will be like with the E.U.
Now, to your point, is it likely or is it possible or potential even that there will be a conflict between what the E.U. demands for a decent, fair
deal in their view versus what the U.S. would demand? That's entirely possible. But that's a process of negotiation.
What Donald Trump is saying is that the U.K. may find itself and he's right into an extent. The U.K. could find itself in a position where long-term,
it is forbidden from doing trade relations, trade deals externally.
GORANI: All right. And now, regarding General Motors.
QUEST: Yes.
GORANI: In terms of what -- bad news for jobs for General Motors and also for the president who said he'd be bringing back those manufacturing jobs.
Well, President Trump has tweeted in the last few minutes on General Motors saying among other thing that he's quote, "Very disappointed with General
Motors and their CEO for closing plants in Ohio, Michigan, and Maryland. Nothing is being closed in Mexico and China. The U.S. saved General Motors
and this is the thanks we get. We are now looking at cutting all GM subsidies."
QUEST: Right. So the first -- so the important --
GORANI: Knives are out.
QUEST: Right. Well, it depends which subsidies he's talking about because GM would say that they don't get any subsidies or they don't get any
subsidies specifically to them that aren't to other car manufacturers.
And look. It is war. You know? Donald Trump has now laid down his marker. He said he wasn't pleased. Yesterday, he said Mary Barra the CEO
needed to bring something back. Well, now, he's saying he's going to go -- this is really important for him.
Losing those -- losing those factories in Ohio goes to the heart of the whole Trump manufacturing trade policy that helped win him the election.
If he loses this, he loses those electoral votes and, yes, we're already looking at 2020.
So he really can't afford this sort of nastiness over jobs in Ohio which is why, judging by what he says today, he's going to war.
GORANI: All right. Richard Quest, we'll see you at the top of the hour on "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS."
QUEST: You will.
GORANI: Live from New York.
Tensions between Russia and Ukraine continue to grow two days after confrontation in the disputed Kerch Strait. A court and Russian-controlled
Crimea has ordered three captured Ukrainian sailors to remain in custody for two months. And Ukraine's parliament voted to impose martial law in
areas bordering Russia or in areas near where Russian troops are posted and that martial law period starts in less than 12 hours. And it is supposed
to last for 30 days.
Our senior international correspondent Nick Paton Walsh is in Kiev with more.
So, first of all, this martial law, what does it mean practically on the ground for ordinary Ukrainians?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, on paper, it means increased troop presence, air defense, cyber defense. We learned
from Petro Poroshenko speaking to Christiane Amanpour earlier on today and in fact, it may -- and they're still considering this, may involve barring
the entry of some Russian citizens to Ukraine in its early stages.
That would be an extreme measure. Obviously there are many Russians with families in Ukraine and vice versa bound to meet with their reciprocal
measures potentially by Russia as well. But that's a sign of how serious this is.
Ten regions will fall under this martial law regime in about 12 hours from now, as you said. And it comes a day of increased escalation. In fact, 12
Ukrainian sailors were captured during this Kerch Strait incident, have now been sentenced to 12 months in jail and the rest look like to face court
proceedings tomorrow.
They keep upping the ante, frankly, on both sides here and he backdrop to rule of this is an expectation, frankly, from Ukrainian president, Petro
Poroshenko that the outside world, the international community will come to his aid.
Well, that's the case, virtually, most western nations apart from the Trump White House who have cabinet level, the U.N. ambassador, Nikki Haley and
Secretary of state, Mike Pompeo condemn Russian aggression. But we just had a remarkable press conference from the national security adviser and
the White House press secretary in which Ukraine came up once. And then John Bolton, the national security adviser, referred back to Nikki Haley's
earlier comments.
They refused. They seem allergic to condemn Russian aggression. And in terms of his cabinet officials, openly on a public stage on that White
House. And I think that will only give those in the kremlin a slight extra sense of confidence here.
There are some who believe this is President Putin testing the Trump White House. How far can he go? He knows, I think frankly, that the Ukrainian
military cannot defeat the Russian military in open warfare. And so the broad question now really is, is he pushing further now or has he made his
point? Hala?
[14:40:02] GORANI: Nick Paton Walsh, live in Kiev. Thanks very much very much.
And Nick was mentioning Petro Poroshenko's interview on CNN. He was last hour's guest on Amanpour. He blamed the Russian president for the entire
thing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETRO POROSHENKO, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: Putin is simply not hiding anymore that this is his order to use the force and to openly shoot to Ukrainian
soldiers on the two light military boat and one tugboat. And this is the - - under the international law. This is clear and direct act of the aggression fully meet the criteria from the resolution of the United
Nations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Petro Poroshenko there reacting to the day's developments.
Still to come, that terrifying report about the rise of hate in Europe. A CNN study finds anti-Semitism may be a lot worse than you think.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Most people usually don't just come out and admit that they're racist or homophobic or anti-Semitic. So when CNN commissioned a survey
about anti-Semitism in Europe, we didn't ask the obvious question.
Instead, we asked things like, do Jews have too much influence over politics and finance? Questions that reveal hidden levels of anti-
Semitism. Twenty-eight percent of respondents said Jewish people had too much influence in finance.
The other results were pretty striking, many Europeans think anti-Semitism is the fault of Jewish behavior. And nearly a third of Europeans say they
know little or nothing about the holocaust.
Jewish leaders in organizations are expressing shock at the results of this study, especially the way the holocaust is being forgotten little by
little. After all, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it as is often said.
Joining me now to talk about this survey is acclaimed author, Howard Jacobson. He's a past winner of The Man Booker Prize, which is the highest
honor in English literature. Thank you so much for joining us.
HOWARD JACOBSON, BRITISH NOVELIST: My pleasure. Thank you for that.
GORANI: So when you hear these very frightening numbers, what goes through your mind?
JACOBSON: I'm not shocked, I'm horrified.
GORANI: Yes.
JACOBSON: But I'm not shocked because I always suspected that something like this was afoot. You could feel it. And lots of my friends feel it.
There is something not -- something not right here.
GORANI: Getting worse?
JACOBSON: Yes, I think it's getting worse. It's getting worse because of the world is getting worse. It's getting worse along with the package of
other thing. This is not just about Jews. In the end, you could say this is even primarily for Jews to worry about. We should all worry about it
because it suggests an enormous amount of irrationality out there and also a lack of knowledge. How can you not know about the holocaust? You don't
have to care a damn about a Jew to know about the holocaust.
GORANI: Especially among the younger respondents in the study. More than a third know nothing or very little about the holocaust.
[14:45:04] JACOBSON: We know who to blame for this, the internet. The internet that was meant to bring light and education and enlighten was all
-- has done just the opposite. Before we start blaming leaders and people, I'd say look at that. It's done the opposite to what it was meant to do.
It confirmed people in their ignorance and it's made them aggressive. Excuse me. It made them aggressive in their ignorance, too, because they
think they've got the information when they haven't.
GORANI: Because we're all in our own silo on the internet?
JACOBSON: Yes. And we believe that there are conspiracies and anybody that thinks differently from us, we think is trying to pull the wool over
our eyes. So for example, if you say, well, such and such a kind of criticism of Israel is inappropriate or unfair or excessive, you're only
trying to shock, you're only trying to smear, we'll get a lot of that here.
If we, in this country, talk about anti-Semitism in the Labour Party, we're trying to smear the Labour Party. So there's no freedom to criticize at
the moment.
GORANI: I want to -- there's another stat that I want to get your reaction to that we isolated here. Our survey found that three in 10 adults think
the Jewish people use the holocaust to advance their position or to achieve certain goals.
JACOBSON: That's such a wicked thing to say. No Jew that I know, there's always one Jew, always one person who would do something. No Jew I know
would dare do that. Because the holocaust is a thing of sacred and horrifying memory. It's a sacrament. An anti-sacrament what happened
there. You don't use that.
GORANI: But a third -- almost a third of respondents believe that Jews use it.
JACOBSON: Well, they've been fed that. They've been fed that on the internet. You can get that -- given you by the British Labour Party.
There are many, many Labour MPs who will feed that stuff to you, who don't believe that -- don't believe that we've got -- Jews who complained about
anti-Semitism at the moment, have got anything but malign intent.
GORANI: And I want to ask you about something you wrote in a column. The tensions in the second half of your life, you write, have almost all been
to do with Israel.
JACOBSON: Yes.
GORANI: Can you expand on that?
JACOBSON: Well, there's always been a little bit of anti-Semitism around. There's been anti-Semitism in the world for 2,000 years. Our fault for
inventing Christianity and then killing the person who, you know, killing Jesus. We are caught up in that forever in the western imagination, I'm
afraid. That will never, ever go away. And so I grew -- went to school, little bits of things. You Jews. Have you got tales? It was nothing. It
really was nothing.
My tutor at universities called me -- well, called me Goldstein, Finkelberg (ph). It didn't matter. I'm a Jew. That was all. It wasn't -- and then
suddenly Israel happened and the left got hold, the extreme left got hold of Israel and Israel gave them an opportunity because Israel is a wonderful
target, if you come from the far left because you've what you can claim a colonial people. They're a colonial people that we as the Jews, we
associate them with money and violence and cruelty. They are.
So it's capital. It's capitalism. It's colonialism and they're friends of America. So when you go -- when the left goes for Israel, it's a triple
whammy. You get the lot.
GORANI: Is there -- can you be anti-Zionist and not anti-Semitic interview?
JACOBSON: Yes, of course you can. Yes, of course you can. But you've got to be careful. I don't think anybody should go near anti-Zionism. I think
if they don't like Israel, they should say so. Don't like the country, don't like the people, don't like the wall, don't like Netanyahu.
GORANI: Or they cannot like -- the government but like other parties or --
JACOBSON: Exactly. The Zionism --
GORANI: They enjoy reading (INAUDIBLE) or something, you know?
JACOBSON: Yes. Because, you know, there's plenty of criticism of the country in Israel. If you want to hear criticism of Israel, go to any
Jewish house on a Friday night or go to Israel. You know? We do it, we do it -- we do that better than anybody. We criticize Israel.
But Zionism is not the state of Israel at the moment. Zionism was an ideology. Zionism was an attempt to escape from what was the cruel
nationalism of other people. So when people say it's a colonial enterprise, it's turning something upside down. It was refuge. It was a
way of finding refuge for people who have themselves suffered from nationalism.
GORANI: And, Howard, I've got to ask you one last question before we leave it. What's the solution?
JACOBSON: Solution?
GORANI: I mean, how do you better things? Because if the internet has rotted our brains and things are getting worse and anti-immigrant, anti-
Jewish, anti-gay, anti-Muslim voices are on the rise, what do we do about it?
JACOBSON: We remind people anti-Semitism is the canary in the mind. Don't ever feel that this is just something that might happen to Jews. If the
Jews cop it, every minority will cop it. Everybody who thinks differently from whoever the prevailing ideology will cop it. We are all in this
together and that's what people have to be persuaded of and then throw away your kid's computers.
GORANI: Howard Jacobson, real pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for being on CNN.
JACOBSON: My pleasure. Thank you.
GORANI: And you can find out more about anti-Semitism in Europe and the results of that CNN poll we've been discussing, go to cnn.com/antisemitism.
You'll find all the results there and also some exclusive reports from our correspondents. We'll be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:50:41] GORANI: Facebook is under pressure, again, over its practices. Disinformation and the role Facebook plays in spreading it has been the
focus of a meeting in London today. Lawmakers from nine countries questioned the social media company, but as you can see, there was an empty
seat. One key figure was missing. Bit of theater there to be said from parliament, Facebook CEO, Mark Zuckerberg.
Hadas Gold is here with me. She's been closely following the hearing. So they kept that chair empty and had a name, little name badge there for him
to remind people that he refuses to take questions.
HADAS GOLD, CNN INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And these were members of parliament from nine different countries. There was about 23 of
them, countries from Argentina, Latvia, France, obviously the United Kingdom, which was hosting this event and they were all just really angry
that Mark Zuckerberg didn't think that they were important enough to show up or even show up via video link which they offered. Sort of a Skype
interview with the Facebook CEO.
And instead, he sent a deputy, a Richard Allan, who's actually also a lord in the House of Lords, to take the heat pretty much and I think we have
some sound of Richard Allan, even admitting that it wasn't a great look for them to now have Mark Zuckerberg there.
GORANI: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLIVE EFFORD, BRITISH LABOUR MP: You said earlier on that you apologized for the decision for Mark Zuckerberg not appearing here. You took
responsibility for that. How do you think that looks as a member of this parliament?
RICHARD ALLAN, VICE PRESIDENT OF POLICY SOLUTIONS, FACEBOOK: Not great, I guess is the answer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLD: And so, you can obviously hear the frustration in the members of parliament voices, but they did ask important questions about, for example,
privacy of people's data and also Russian disinformation and fake news.
We didn't necessarily get a ton of new information from Facebook on this. But what was interesting was this came right after those secret documents
were seized from a company suing Facebook. And although the documents were not quite released, the chairman of that committee did referenced them.
And we learned that in 2014, according to some of these documents, a Facebook engineer warned Facebook that somebody with Russian API, ort of a
Russian internet protocol, was pulling billions of data points per day through Pinterest and through Facebook and sort of weird connection.
Now, Facebook came out and said that they further studied this. They didn't see any real Russian activity.
GORANI: At the time?
GOLD: No. They said they came out today and they gave a statement about how they didn't see it. They looked into it and they didn't see any
further Russian activity. But it just goes to show that these documents might have really important internal conversations at Facebook about how
they might have known about Russian attempts.
GORANI: I guess the Russians -- did they say they look into it at the time the alarm was -- this engineer sounded the alarm? Or did they look into it
years later?
GOLD: They didn't specify in their statement when exactly it was done, but they said they looked into it and that there wasn't any further Russian
interference that they could see from that time. But it's really important that what these e-mails could show and the committee says that they're
looking into potentially releasing the rest of these documents sometime this week.
GORANI: Right. So -- because we were talking about this yesterday. Will we see the documents or will they be woven into some of the questions?
GOLD: The committee says that they're going through redacting any sort of personal information picking out the relevant parts and then they will
release them all in a bloc, they said, within the next few days.
GORANI: OK. And so this is something that we'll be able to sift through and go --
GOLD: That's what they said. And remember, these are otherwise under seal in the United States. It's a special parliamentary privilege that they
have over here versus being in the U.S. to be able to do this.
[14:55:02] GORANI: All right. Hadas Gold, thanks very much.
We have some breaking news coming into CNN. We're hearing reports of an active shooter at Walter Reed Medical Center, that is in Maryland, just
outside Washington.
Let's -- no. Let's -- actually, let me give you the latest information that we have on that as we await their correspondents coming to us. So
Montgomery County Police is saying that they received a call to assist for a report of an active shooter at Walter Reed Medical Center, as I
mentioned.
In addition, Maryland congressman, Dutch Ruppersberger, is tweeting about this situation from a verified account and also confirming that there is
some sort of incident, some sort of situation going on at Walter Reed.
So an active shooter. No word on whether or not this active shooter is still on the loose. No word, of course, of this early stage on any
casualties. We do know there is a police response and there is official confirmation through Twitter from elected officials that this is an ongoing
situation.
Walter Reed Medal Center is, of course, where veterans and members of the armed services are treated. It's a big, big facility in Maryland outside
of Washington, D.C. As we continue to keep our eye on what happened there. An active shooter there. Of course, big cause for concern.
We're going to continue to keep our eye on that breaking news story. As soon as more developments become available to us, we will share them with
you.
We are going to take a quick break. I'm Hala Gorani. Thanks for watching. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is coming up next.
END
