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Aired February 20, 2019 - 14:00 ET
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[14:00:00] HANNAH VAUGHN JONES, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London, I'm Hannah Vaughn Jones in for Hala Gorani. Tonight, Theresa May
is back in Brussels to break the Brexit deadlock. But back home, MPs have dealt a stinging blow to her authority. Also, the Mueller report is coming
after two years. We are hearing the investigation could be completed as soon as next week. And as Britain tries to strip Shamima Begum of her
citizenship, we discuss the problems posed by returning radicals.
We begin the program tonight with Brexit, and another dramatic day on both sides of the channel. Right now, the Prime Minister Theresa May is in
Brussels trying to hash out some sort of agreement that will be able to make it through her very divided Parliament. That comes after another day
of high drama in Westminster in the heart of London that shows just how divisive an issue Brexit has really become. Three members of the Prime
Minister's own party quit this morning with a scathing rebuke of the power that Brexiteers have within the Conservative Party. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNA SOUBRY, INDEPENDENT MP, UK: The right wing, the hard-line anti-EU awkward squad that have destroyed every leader for the last 40 years are
now running the Conservative party from top to toe. They are the Conservative party. You win in politics when you're with a team, and in
that team with shared values and principles. And I believe mine are no longer welcome in the Conservative party. I'm not leaving the Conservative
Party, it's left us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: Anna Soubry there. The three now are sitting as independents. You can see them here with the Labour lawmakers who defected from that party
earlier on in the week. It is worth remembering that Britain is, of course, due to leave the European Union in 37 days from now. We have both
angles of the story covered for you. Erin McLaughlin is in London. Erin, I want to come to you first. Theresa May is in town enjoying a dinner with
the EU commission President. Will it put a dent in what would otherwise be a cordial dinner?
ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, LONDON BUREAU: Well, that's right, Hannah. The two are now meeting at the European commission
which is of course behind me. No breakthrough, though is expected out of this meeting. That, according to the President of the European commission
Jean Claude Juncker earlier today. We heard from the British Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt today in Germany say he believes there is a way
through this impasse. Take a listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEREMY HUNT, BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY: We do see a way through this, a way that we can get a majority in the U.K. Parliament for the Brexit deal
that's on the table with a simple, but important change that allows the Attorney General to change his advice to the government that says that --
currently says the U.K. could be trapped inside the customs union indefinitely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCLAUGHLIN: And that optimism that there is a simple change, magic bullet to all of this, so to speak, there in the U.K. is being met with a healthy
dose of skepticism here in Brussels. E.U. sources I have been speaking to for a while now say they do think there is some sort of legally binding
compromise, a way to assure the United Kingdom of the temporary nature of the backstop which is at the center of this impasse. The issue being they
do not believe that what Brussels is willing to compromise on this issue will be enough to see this deal through Parliament given the demands of
some of those hard Brexiters there in London. And what the EU has long been urging in all of this is some sort of cross-party compromise for
Theresa May to reach across the aisle to the Labour opposition, to come up with some sort of cross-party solution to all of this. And it's
interesting to note that tomorrow Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the opposition, will be meeting with EU officials here in Brussels, but with
less than 40 days to go until that cliff edge there, Hannah, it really does not seem likely at this point that that's possible.
[14:05:05] JONES: Yes, it always comes back to Parliament, the British Parliament, what happens here in London. Phil Black standing by for us in
the newsroom now. Phil, a significant day for Theresa May and for the Conservative Party. Three MPs defecting from that party. They are joining
now the eight Labour MPs who defected earlier on in the week. Have the three today specifically quit over Brexit? And if yes, what do they
reasonably hope could actually change in what 38 days' time?
PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brexit certainly a big part of their motivation today, Hannah. These are people who don't want Brexit, who have
been pushing for this idea of yet another referendum, but more than that, they've been angry with the Prime Minister because they believe she has
been taking the country irresponsibly close to what they consider the cliff edge of a no-deal Brexit scenario. The fact that hasn't been removed from
the table is one of the key factors in terms of why they believe they've been forced to take this very dramatic step and leave the Conservative
party. But it is more than about Brexit, too. It has been about, again, just like the Labour MPs or former Labour MPs who defected a couple of days
ago, they are also deeply concerned about the culture within the party, its direction. They also believe that as traditional center ground
politicians, they believe they have been left behind or squeezed out. The party has been pulled strongly to the right by the hard core Brexiters.
They believe they can no longer influence the ideas, its direction, its policy and so they say they have no choice but to jump. And in terms of
what impact it can have, well, they hope that their movement reminds the Prime Minister that there are other MPs who might do the same, and so this
weak Prime Minister is in a sense weaker because she will have to consider with every decision she makes whether or not it will drive other
Conservative MPs to also quit the party. Her attempt to hold the party together has failed and it could, in theory, get worse, Hannah.
JONES: The Prime Minister, to go back to Erin, is having the dinner and negotiations with Jean Claude Juncker. She is trying to get legally
binding changes to the withdrawal agreement. Do we know whether or not Jean Claude Juncker is willing to consider opening that agreement?
MCLAUGHLIN: Well, the EU has long ruled out the possibility of reopening that withdrawal agreement. They say that is a nonstarter. That would be
equivalent to throwing Ireland under the bus, so to speak, in all of this. Something the EU time and time again has said they will not do. But what
my sources are telling me is possible is some sort of legally binding agreement outside of the withdrawal agreement that could clarify the
situation. But again, the question becomes, is that enough to change that Parliamentary arithmetic in Westminster? There is deep skepticism given
her refusal to reach across the aisle to Labour, to Jeremy Corbyn for some sort of cross-party compromise. It really at this point does not seem to
be likely from the vantage point of diplomats I've been talking to here in Brussels.
JONES: Final thought, then, to Phil standing by for us in London. All of the MPs you have left either the Labour party or the Conservative party in
the last couple of days, they seem to suggest that there are more to follow suit. Is that expected now? Are we going to see over the course of the
next couple weeks while we head on to Brexit, that more people are joining this independence group now?
BLACK: That is certainly the feeling. In both cases, Labour party and Conservatives, the leaders are on notice. Unless they start doing things
differently, yes, more will follow. That's the threat that hangs over both of them. It would seem that the threat is stronger and greatest in the
context of the Labour party where Jeremy Corbyn is standing against a much stronger desire to see a strong change on Brexit policy --
JONES: Phil, I'm going to have to interrupt you, my apologies, we have to get to another story very quickly and we are going to return to the
question of Brexit. Donald Trump speaking now alongside the Austrian chancellor. Let's listen in.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Very good relationship on trade, do a lot of business with each other, and chancellor, it's very nice
to have you. Thank you very much.
SEBASTIAN KURZ, CHANCELLOR OF AUSTRIA: Thank you, Mr. President, for receiving us here in the U.S. and the White House. It's a pleasure for my
delegation and for me to be here. Austria, as you probably know, is compared to the U.S., a very small country, but we are a beautiful country.
TRUMP: That's true.
[14:10:01] KURZ: We are an economically quite strong country. You would probably say a great country. We are in the heart of the European Union,
an active member, state of the European Union. As a small country, we need international corporation and therefore I hope that we can discuss now
bilateral relations, but also the relations between the European Union and the United States of America. Of course, trade and how we can as a small
country, we need international corporation and therefore I hope that we can discuss now bilateral relations, but also the relations between the
European Union and the United States of America. Of course, trade and how we can gain economic growth for the U.S., but also for Europe and probably
international issues like Middle East, Korea.
TRUMP: Right.
KURZ: And possibly also Russia. Thank you for receiving us.
TRUMP: Thank you very much. Thank you.
KURZ: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, are you going to impose auto tariffs on the Europeans?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's something we think about. They're very tough to make a deal with the EU they've been very
difficult over a period of time, over many, many years. And so, it's something we think about and we're negotiating with them. If we don't make
the deal, we'll do the tariffs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The new report has changed your mind about it all? The new report from the Commerce Department?
TRUMP: The new report isn't that kind of a report, it's just a study that's under way. We've studied it carefully. But the bottom-line result
is whether or not we can make a deal with EU. We lose about $151 billion trading with the EU. That's a lot of money. This has been going on for
many years. They wouldn't meet with the Obama administration and they're meeting with us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, will the Mueller report be released when you're abroad?
TRUMP: That's up to the new Attorney General. He's a tremendous man, a tremendous person who really respects this is country and respects the
Justice Department so that will be totally up to him, the new Attorney General. I guess from what I understand that will be totally up to the
Attorney General.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President. [inaudible question]
TRUMP: Say it? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Decriminalizing. [inaudible question]
TRUMP: I don't know which report you're talking about. We have many reports. Anybody else?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [inaudible question]
TRUMP: Well, we're going to have a great meeting. We have a great relationship and our countries have a great relationship and he's a very
young leader, I have to tell you. You are a young guy, that's pretty good.
SEBASTIAN KURZ, CHANCELLOR OF AUSTRIA: But the problem with the age is getting better from day to day.
TRUMP: Someday you won't be saying that. But we have a good relationship, we have a great trade relationship and that's what we'll be talking about
today.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you want Dan Coats As Director of National Intelligence?
TRUMP: I haven't even thought about it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [inaudible question]
TRUMP: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [inaudible question]
TRUMP: I spoke this morning with Prime Minister Abe, had a long conversation with him, we talked about the trip next week to Vietnam which
will be very successful. The first trip to Singapore was extremely successful. We'll meet with Chairman Kim for two days and we'll accomplish
a lot. We started off with a good meeting and we'll continue that. I don't think this will be the last meeting but I think the relationship is
strong. When we started there were a lot of problems, the missiles going all over, there were hostages being held, they were remains we wanted to
get back, many, many things now there's no nuclear testing, no missiles going up and we have a good relationship, very good relationship, I'd say
so I spoke with Prime Minister Abe of Japan about that and we compared notes and I think we are on the same wavelength. It was a good meeting.
Good conversation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [inaudible]
TRUMP: No, I don't think they're reluctant. I think they want to do something but you've been talking about this for 80 years. They've been
talking about this for many, many years and no administration has done anything. They've gotten taken to the cleaners and I think we have a
meaningful relationship, we'll see what happens. Sanctions are on in full. I'd love to take sanctions off but in order do that we have to do something
that's meaningful but Chairman Kim and I have a good relationship. I wouldn't be surprised to see something work out. I believe that as an
economic power because of its location in between -- you look on a map and you see Russia, China, and right in the middle of everything is South Korea
but North Korea right smack in the middle so you have Russia, China, and then South Korea and this is right in the middle.
[14:15:00] Tremendous potential for economic well-being long term and I think he understands that very well. I think he might understand that
better than anybody so they have a great, great potential as a country and that's what they're looking to do. We'll see. But we made a lot of
progress. I don't believe this will be the last meeting because I don't believe it will, we have subjects to discuss which will be very fruitful, I
believe.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have a comment on Andrew McCabe briefing McConnell and Paul Ryan and Devin Nunes telling them about the
investigation?
TRUMP: I think Andrew McCabe has made a fool out of himself over the last couple of days and he looks like a poor man's J. Edgar Hoover. I think
he's a disaster and what he was trying to do was terrible and he was caught. I was proud to say we caught him so we'll see what happens but he
is a disgraced man. He was terminated not by me. The IG report was a disaster from his standpoint. Anybody reading the IG report would say how
could a man like this be involved with the FBI? This man is a complete disaster. Thank you all very much, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
JONES: Donald Trump there, the U.S. President sitting alongside the Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz at the White House. Let's bring in our
reporter who has been listening in to what the President had to say. Talked a lot there, in particular, talking about Andrew McCabe. This is
the former acting FBI Director. He was sacked, or who left the FBI under this administration. Very critical there of what he had to say. Largely
because Andy McCabe in recent days said Donald Trump may well be a Russian agent.
SHIMON PROKUPESZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Pretty extraordinary remarks by Andrew McCabe. He was being interviewed by Anderson Cooper. It
was pretty extraordinary to hear that obviously from someone who was running the FBI, even though a short period, but when you think about
Andrew McCabe knows of all the intelligence, knows about what the FBI was investigating while he was there, they were investigating the Trump
campaign. He was in on all the meetings. He was in on all the intelligence briefings. It's a pretty strong statement for someone on his
level to make. What I find hard to believe is that if that was the case, that if he is this Russian asset, that the FBI or people within our own
government would still allow him to be President if they thought that, that there was actual hard evidence that this was the case, that someone
wouldn't do something about it. So, we'll see.
JONES: And, of course, the Russia investigation may well have started with the FBI. It's now fallen to Robert Mueller, special counsel and the
breaking news the last hour or so we might actually find out the contents of that report as early as next week.
PROKUPESZ: We may. What's going to happen is --
JONES: And we may not.
PROKUPESZ: Or we may not. Here's the thing. The headline out of this what our team learned, the Mueller team, the special counsel's team is done
with their part of the investigation completed their work and are now ready to submit to the Attorney General. Arrived, has been briefed on the Russia
investigation. That report we believe will come next week. What happens after that, the Attorney General with his staff will review it and they
will ultimately decide what goes to members of Congress. And that part will likely be made public. We don't expect the entire report to be made
public. There is going to be information there that, quite frankly, the FBI and the Department of Justice don't want to talk about, they're not
allowed to talk about, it's investigative staff. It could be classified information. Information about people who have not been charged in this
investigation. So, there will be parts of that report that we may never, ever see publicly. Where things stand? We don't now, the report that will
be released will answer questions. That may not be the case. Some people need to be prepared some questions may not be answered.
[14:20:01] JONES: Obviously, we may not see much of it, all of it, we don't know when exactly it's going to come out. The content will be
significant. But is the timing potentially significant as well? The President has long taken to Twitter to say this is a witch-hunt, no
collusion, et cetera, et cetera. Has the pressure been so much now on the special counsel he and his team have to release something sooner rather
than later?
PROKUPESZ: I don't know that Robert Mueller and his team is a type of team that would face -- would act quicker because of any kind of pressure. I
think there was a long time understanding, once there was a new deputy Attorney General that Mueller would likely be done and act quicker because
of any kind of pressure. I think there was a long time understanding, once there was a new Deputy Attorney General that Mueller would likely be done
and move on and be finished with his part of the investigation.
I will tell you, the current Attorney General William Barr wants to move on from this. There are going to be parts of the Mueller investigation that
are going to live on, that are still going to be investigated and remain with the Department of Justice. I think people ultimately felt, given how
much time Robert Mueller has been spending on the set. Whatever work is left can be undertaken by the current Department of Justice. We don't have
a conflicted Attorney General. We're getting a new deputy Attorney General at the Department of Justice since this investigation started.
JONES: Thanks very much indeed for all of that.
All right, still to come tonight on the program, we are going to return to our discussion on Theresa May's visit to Brussels. Plus, the ISIS bride is
to be stripped of her British citizenship. Is it the right decision? Is it even legal? Stay with us for more on that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JONES: All right. Welcome back. Let's return to our top story. Right now, Theresa May, the British Prime Minister is in Brussels meeting with
Jean Claude Juncker on the same day three members of her party quit.
Let's wrap this all up now. John is the chief political commentator for "The Independent" paper who has been standing by patiently to bring us
expertise on this. So, split this week we've seen in the two major parties, the two pillars of British politics, is this a crisis of British
democracy, or do splits bode well for some sort of Brexit breakthrough?
JOHN RENTOUL, CHIEF POLITICAL COMMENTATOR FOR "THE INDEPENDENT": No. I mean, to be honest, the impact on Brexit is going to be very limited. I
mean, Anna Soubry, one of the Conservatives who defected today, admitted their defection doesn't change the Parliamentary arithmetic. The House of
Commons is still the same. All the people who have defected from the Conservative party and the Labour party are opposed to Brexit. They want
Britain to stay in the EU they want to have a second referendum in the hope that the British people will change their mind. Now, those MPs are in the
minority in the House of Commons, whichever party they're in. So, it doesn't have a direct effect on Brexit. It might have a shock effect on
some of the Conservatives who are pushing for us to leave without a deal.
JONES: There are now 11 people in the independent group. It's still not a party. Does it all comes down to numbers? They need a certain number of
people before they can officially declare themselves a party? There are more to join them presumably.
[14:25:00] RENTOUL: I think there will be more to join them. As your correspondent said, more likely to be more Labour MPs joining them than
Conservatives, but who knows how many they will eventually get. I mean, the last time the Labour party saw this kind of break away, it lost 28 MPs
to the Social Democratic Party which was then more or less wiped out in subsequent general elections because our voting system is pretty
unforgiving to new parties.
JONES: Theresa May is obviously focused on what's going on in Brussels now and her conversations there. However, this is certainly going to be
playing on her mind, one would think. What would she do? She's been accused by three who left, accused by them to bowing to the demands of the
extremes within the Conservative party of the hard line Brexiters and also the northern Irish party. Does she lurch further to the right or does she
perhaps seek the second referendum route?
RENTOUL: I think it's beyond -- it's beyond trying to hold the party together now. She has to get whatever she can that will get through the
House of Commons. I mean, it doesn't matter what party labels people have. She has to get people to sign up to whatever she agrees in Brussels through
the House of Commons. And so, the timing of this defection is curious because, you know, one of the reasons these Conservative MPs have left is
because Theresa May refuses to rule out the possibility of us leaving the EU without a deal. But Parliament is going to decide that question next
week if Theresa May doesn't. So, you would have thought they'd wait for that.
JONES: Jeremy Corbyn, the leader, rather, of the Labour party said he would prefer a general election. That's what he's been pushing for. Now
that we've seen splits in the Labour party and in the Tory party, is the general election inconceivable that neither of the two main parties could
get a majority?
RENTOUL: We don't know that. But actually, the effect of the split is to make a general election less likely. Because Theresa May so far has been
relying on the D.U.P., the small northern Irish party for a majority because she doesn't have a majority of her own. She now doesn't just need
the D.U.P., she could rely on this new break away grouping to -- you know, they wouldn't support her, but they might abstain in critical votes. Even
if the D.U.P. turned against her, they couldn't force a general election without the cooperation of this new group.
JONES: Her critics, of course, say she's running down the clock and the legally binding changes she's seeking to get on the Northern Ireland
backstop. It is just a nonstarter as far as the EU is concerned. We're hearing different reports and hopefully presumably hear more of what came
out of the dinner in Brussels. Is this a lost hope for her or is she just sort of --
RENTOUL: Not at all, no. I think she has a very good chance of getting something like her deal through the House of Commons eventually. There is
no majority for leaving without a deal if she doesn't want to close that option off. If the House of Commons closes it off. House of Commons has
to choose, her deal or postponing Brexit? It's not clear which way that would go.
JONES: The Irish backstop has been a sticking point for Brexiteers and Remainers as well throughout this whole thing. We are learning Jean Claude
Junker and Theresa May may have reconfirmed their commitment to avoid hard borders at any cost. Is that the same as a legally binding commitment to
it or are words enough?
RENTOUL: That only works if they get a deal, because if we leave without a deal then there would be a hard border. But as I said, you know, that is
the one outcome that does not have support in the House of Commons. I mean, there are certainly a number of Conservative MPs who will be happy to
leave without a deal. But I think the House of Commons as a whole is going to take control of this process if Theresa May doesn't get a deal by the
middle of next week. And will try to legislate to rule out leaving without a deal. And that is going to change the options before the House of
Commons.
JONES: The middle of next week, this is all going to come back to Parliament again and there will be more votes. Could they be meaningful
votes or is this just non-meaningful votes?
RENTOUL: A meaningful vote means a vote on a deal to approve a deal, which last time didn't go very well. She lost that by a huge margin. Depends
what she's going to agree tonight with Jean Claude Juncker whether she has the deal or not. If she doesn't, then the House of Commons takes control
of the President.
[14:30:00] JONES: Thank you very much. We'll speak next week about it. Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:30:00] HANNAH VAUGHAN JONES, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Now to a question that's been dominating headlines here in the U.K. The future of British
teenager, Shamima Begum, who left London to join ISIS back in 2015. The ISIS bride is to be stripped of her British citizenship. She had hoped to
come home along with her newborn son. Nina dos Santos explains why Britain is refusing to allow her to turn and what could happen next.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Shamima Begum shocked Britain when she skipped school four years ago to travel to
Syria, a child who went to a warzone, returned to the public eye, a young woman with child. But seemingly no regrets.
SHAMIMA BEGUM, TEENAGER WHO FLED LONDON TO JOIN ISLAMIC STATE: Even though I was only 15 years old, I could make my decisions that day. I do have the
like mentality to make my own decision that I did leave on my own knowing that it was a risk.
DOS SANTOS (on-camera): Found in refugee camp last week by then heavily pregnant and pleading to come home, but go homes apparent lack of remorse
appears to have underpins the U.K.'s decision to strip her off her citizenship.
Since she was discovered, she's given birth and granted multiple interviews, during which she's aired contentious points of view. Here she
is seeming to justify the 2017 Manchester Arena attack, which claimed the lives of 22 concert goers.
BEGUM: Women and children are being killed back in the Islamic State right now. And it's kind of retaliation, like their justification was that it
was retaliation, so I thought, OK, that is a fair justification.
DOS SANTOS: It's words like these that have alarmed the country and its lawmakers.
SAVID JAVID, BRITISH HOME SECRETARY: The House will have also seen the comments of Shamima Begum and she's made in the media and it will have to
draw its own conclusions. Quite simply, if you back terror, there must be consequences.
ALEXANDER CARLILE, BRITISH HOUSE OF LORDS: I think that there will be a mixed reception to this, but the vast majority I suspect of British people
don't particularly want Ms. Begum back in this country.
DOS SANTOS: Central to the U.K.'s decision is whether Begum has access to a second citizenship through her mother from Bangladesh. Meaning stripping
her that British passport would not render her stateless.
However, a family representative told CNN she did not have a Bangladeshi passport and had never set foot in that country. Bangladesh says that
Begum's future is a matter for the U.K.
Some argue Britain has a duty of care. Begum, they say, is brainwashed and likely to be suffering from mental illness after her time with ISIS and
following the death of her first two children when they were months old.
EMILY WINTERBOTHAM, RUSI: When she left, she was 15, so she was a minor. Obviously, she isn't anymore. She's now 19, and the experiences that she's
had overseas will need to be looked at.
DOS SANTOS: Less clear and more urgent is the state of Begum's son, born at the weekend while his mother was still a British citizen.
Begum has the right to appeal against the decision to remove her citizenship. On Twitter, her lawyer said her family was disappointed and
would consider mounting a legal challenge to the move.
Nina dos Santos, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[14:35:07] JONES: The decision to revoke Begum's citizenship has sparked a legal debate in this country. One of the biggest questions, will she be
left stateless now? Human rights lawyer Geoffrey Robertson is also a former U.N. appeals judge joins me in the studio. Thank you for coming in.
Can a country legally strip someone off any their citizenship? Can someone be left stateless against their will?
GEOFFREY ROBERTSON, HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER: It depends whether they've got another nationality. If this young woman does, then maybe she can go to
that one. But if she has no other nationality, then she's been made stateless and that is contrary to international law and I would expect her
appeal to succeed.
But home secretary, after all, rather pettily, I think, and cruelly is acting upon television interviews, which were done with her a few hours
after her baby was born.
Now, if I am a judge down at the Old Bailey, I'm going to exclude that because it's grossly unfair as well as unethical. So she's being condemned
on the basis of an interview that shouldn't ethically have been done by a home secretary who may well be breaking international law.
JONES: This sort of trial by media, then, I guess, that she's been subjected to, if you can call it that over the course of the last week, has
she undone her own case? Had she been more apologetic about her actions --
ROBERTSON: Of course, in her first interview with the Times, which was a fair interview before she gave birth, she said, I'm glad ISIS is falling
because they were full of oppression and corruption.
Now, that sort of statement, made there, would not have incurred the home secretary's displeasure. But I think also there's concern in pleasing
areas that we need to get intelligence. She is one of ours, grew up, born and bred in Bethnal Green.
What on earth radicalized her so much at age 15 that she went off? What sort of -- she said she got religion. What sort of religion did she get
that sent her off to help sever heads? She was a kind of comfort woman, a voluntary comfort woman, and so is guilty of aiding and abetting terrorism,
but it's not I think a judge in this country would have a degree of mercy on her. I think, clearly, the home secretary has not.
JONES: What about the rights of her newborn son as well? Because, obviously, he wasn't born in the U.K. and his mother was.
ROBERTSON: Yes, but he is British. He's been born to a British mother who before the home secretary tried to do anything to her status. So he forgot
all about the baby. He didn't mention the baby. So I think the baby can come back to Britain even if the mother can't. And the baby can go into
court or its lawyers can and demand the return of his mother. But it seems to be an extraordinary oversight.
JONES: From a legal perspective, is it the same crime to be an ISIS bride as it is to be an ISIS fighter?
ROBERTSON: No, because there's been a lot of misunderstanding about the difficulties of prosecuting ISIS fighters. It's very easy. But let me
tell you, to be prosecuted here or by the international criminal court. You aid and abet genocide if you go and fight for ISIS because they are out
to eliminate Christians and you've seen this. You aid and abet crimes against humanity.
All you have to prove is someone taking up a gun for ISIS. But the "comfort women" are a little more difficult. There are parts of the
terrorism act hating and abetting. Terrorism might be charged against them, but it's the sort of crime that a merciful judge could impose a light
sentence, a year in prison, even a community service order if satisfied that they were no danger, and had given up this barbaric creed.
JONES: It seems that the U.K., then, is, at least as far as Shamima Begum is concerned, washes hands of her. We talked before about whether there's
another country --
ROBERTSON: What sort of compassionate society --
JONES: Well, exactly. What would happen to her? If for example, I think the two other countries that have been named as possibly being able to take
her, her case on board would be the Netherlands because that's where her husband is from.
ROBERTSON: Is going to go to jail, yes.
JONES: And Bangladesh, because that's where her mother is originally from. But she's never been to either of these two countries. Is the onus on them
though on the international law to take this up?
[14:40:58] ROBERTSON: He washes his hair -- washer his hands of her and leaves her in a refugee camp at the desert in Syria. So she may well be
taken over by the Syrian army, security services who may well kill her, execute her. So she faces terrible fate if she's not brought back. And
there's a strong intelligence reason for bringing her back, quite apart from a measure of compassion for a child of 15 who was brainwashed into
brutality.
JONES: And she won't be alone, of course, in having made this trip abroad for reasons of terrorism or radicalization. What sort of precedent does
this case and what home secretary said here in the U.K. set for other people?
ROBERTSON: Well, I think it does mean that we're going to get a lot less intelligence if people are just left in the desert and they're not properly
put on trial. It also, I think, means a kind of lowering in whatever civilized values we think we possess because we're behaving in a kind of
cruel way. And that's not what we need to show we're all about.
JONES: Geoffrey Robertson, thank you very much for your analysis.
And we will have more on this story and the plight of women and particular who choose to join ISIS later in the show.
But for now, as ISIS fights for the last sliver of its caliphate, the search is intensifying for its leader, the whereabouts of Abu Bakr al-
Baghdadi are still a mystery despite a $25 million bounty on his head. Some believe al-Baghdadi is on the move between Iraq and Syria.
CNN's Arwa Damon went inside the search for this exclusive report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Reverberating through the streets of the old city during this Friday sermon
are words about the true meaning of freedom in Islam.
But it was also on a Friday in July of 2014 when Mahmoud Dawoud, an imam says his cellphone suddenly lost reception.
"I saw masked men all over the neighborhood and on rooftops, he tells us. The cars came. It's the first time I see them, more than 200 with tinted
windows. And then Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi showed up declared the caliphate himself its leader and ordered all Muslims to obey him.
And that's exactly where al-Baghdadi gave his address.
Mahmoud says he knew in that moment that Iraq would be demolished. It's the only one of al-Baghdadi locations that is fully confirmed. Since then,
despite being hunted by the best intelligence agencies, there has been little more than brief sightings, spotty intelligence and conflicting
information.
Saddam Al-Jamal, a midlevel Syrian ISIS prisoner on death row in the Iraqi capital says he never saw al-Baghdadi, but was close to those who did.
About a year and a half ago, he tells us, there were attempts by foreign fighters to overthrow al-Baghdadi, but he had them all killed.
The dissent within ISIS leadership ranks has even further shrunk the entourage around Baghdadi. The sprawling town of Shirqat is one of the
areas where an intelligence source says Baghdadi moved through in 2015, holding meetings with senior commanders in safe houses.
DAMON (on-camera): We've been talking to residents here, none of whom will appear on camera, but they were telling us that they saw ISIS' top military
commander coming in and out of this house.
And numerous sources say that this is where he was killed in 2015. And an Iraqi intelligence source tells us that this house is one of the places
where he would meet with Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.
DAMON (on-camera): There were also reports that we cannot confirm, that Baghdadi was wounded in that same airstrike. A senior Iraqi intelligence
officer says that on at least three occasions, two in Iraq and one in Syria, they called on strikes that came close to taking him out.
For insight into how the ISIS leader may be moving around, we head from Shirqat to the edge of Baghdadi's former hide out. The foothills of the
Hamrin Mountains, to the west of here lies a vast stretch of desert that leads into Syria.
Exclusive images obtained by CNN show what we are told are ISIS spotter hideouts, masquerading as nomad tents. Photographs of the tunnels inside
the mountains, how their entrance is hidden. Life inside the caves. And a brief video where one fighter discusses his injury and they all crack
jokes. This is where ISIS is training a strike force and still carries out sporadic attacks.
DAMON (on-camera): If you look at the landscape, it's actually a very good illustration of how ISIS is now being forced to move around. They take
advantage of these gorgeous that exist throughout this entire area and, in fact, at one point, they were actually able to, while moving through these
gorgeous come up and attempt to plant an IED right here on the road.
[14:45:14] DAMON (voice-over): Out here, ISIS still rules the night, coming down in small groups to murder, plant bombs and steal. The Iraqis
believe they are closing in on Baghdadi, but he has eluded them more than once. Disappearing into the shadows of these lawless lands.
Arwa Damon, CNN, Shirqat, Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JONES: Still to come tonight, more on Britain's decision to block a teenager's homecoming after her life with ISIS in Syria, an expert on
radicalization joins us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JONES: Welcome back. We want to take a closer look now at the case of Shamima Begum. The teenager is trying to return home to the U.K. after
living in Syria as an ISIS bride and showing no apparent remorse for the life she led as the wife of an ISIS terrorist.
Making her case more compelling, she wants to come back with her newborn son. The 19-year-old says she was shocked to hear that her British
citizenship is being revoked, as the home secretary announced earlier.
Now, for this discussion, I'm joined by Joanna Cook. Joana is a teaching fellow and senior research fellow at King's College London. Thank you for
coming in.
I want to talk about radicalizing individuals. We were just talking to Geoffrey Robertson earlier about the legal side of it, but I'm wondering,
is there a difference in the threat of an ISIS fighter to an ISIS bride?
JOANA COOK, TEACHING FELLOW AND SENIOR RESEARCH FELLOW, KING'S COLLEGE LONDON: I think the most important thing in this case is to look at every
individual on a case by case basis. And so when we talk about radicalization that we look at the push factors and the pull factors.
So what in that individual's life pushed them towards the organization? Did they feel a sense of not belonging in their society? Did they want to
conduct violence on behalf of the organization? These factors are going to be relevant to assessing their kind of potential threats going forward.
But also the roles that they held over there.
JONES: She was presumably radicalized here in the U.K. when she was 15 years old. That's when she first left to go to Syria. What kind of de-
radicalization efforts are there or infrastructure is there in place in the U.K. and would that be a good argument and to say, actually, instead of
just leaving her to rot in a Syrian camp, she should come back and she can still go through some kind of reformation?
COOK: Yes. One thing with the case of Shamima is she represents one of 145 British women that went over there --
JONES: One hundred forty-five you said?
COOK: One hundred forty-five -- one of over a thousand western European women that went and one of almost 4,700 plus women that went globally. So
this is a problem shared by about 80 countries around the world right now.
The U.K. has a channel program which does focus on de-radicalization. And there are -- it is able to work with women in there as well. But again,
each of these kind of programs is going to be unique country to country and they're going to have to be specific adaptations for each individual that
goes through there, whether a man or a woman and the kind of roles that they held in the organization.
[14:50:02] JONES: Should her mental state or the level of brainwashing that she's undergone over the last four years be a factor in deciding
whether she should be able to return back?
We've heard in media interviews that she's been earlier, she talked about having seen beheaded heads in bins and she didn't really flinched. She's
lost two children. She's just given birth to her third as well. And she's just -- she's still 19 years old. Should that be taken into consideration?
COOK: I believe that all these factors should be taken into consideration. And the fact that she did go over as a minor is something that does have to
be born and mind as well.
But I think what is also imperative at this time is to consider the pragmatic approach to this organization. The policy response to leaving
these individuals over there is the equivalent to sticking the head -- like sticking our head in the sand.
It's not dealing with this issue going forward. And ISIS is now losing its territory. It's expanding into an insurgency locally. But it has 10
branches around the world. It has 10 affiliates around the world. It has 22 branches. And when we're looking at what kind of concern this
organization poses going forward to neglect the individuals that became associated with it over there and do not proactively deal with them now is
going to cause problems going forward without a doubt.
JONES: Yes. You talked about other brits abroad who want to potentially come home as well. This isn't just a U.K. problem though. We're hearing
earlier the case of Hoda Muthana. I think we can probably bring up a picture for our viewers as well. She is an ISIS bride of -- American born
ISIS bride who Mike Pompeo, now the U.S. secretary of state and said she will not be allowed to return home.
You can see the picture of Hoda Muthana there. It's a similar ish-case, I suppose, in the sense. Both ISIS brides, both her and Shamima Begum, both
born, one in America, one in the United Kingdom and both now being denied citizenship. I mean, is everyone is going to say they're stateless than us
for everyone.
COOK: We've seen President Trump in recent weeks call for other countries to repatriate -- to repatriate their citizens. We know that those in SDF
custody currently are not going to be there forever. SDF forces do not have the capacity to hold these individuals forever.
So unless these individuals are dealt with likely by the countries from which they came, which would be the most logical thing, then again, their
future in that region going forward and the potential concerns that will emanate from these is very problematic.
JONES: Joana Cook, thank you very much for joining us on the program. We appreciate you coming in.
And we will, of course, have plenty more on this story and, of course, lots of other news as well coming up through the rest of the program.
The latest on the cell phone war, Samsung unveils its new phone with a bunch of high tech features, a breakdown of what it has and what it doesn't
have, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JONES: Welcome back. Now, the way you use your phone, and what you can do with it, took a big step into the future just minutes ago. Samsung
unveiled its newest line of devices including a foldable phone that fits in the palm of your hand and also unfolds into the size of a tablet. The
Galaxy Fold also has six camera lenses and will cost close to $2,000.
Our tech correspondent Samuel Burke has been watching the announcement. That happened just minutes ago. He's in the studio with me now. So this
is a foldable phone. It's like the return of the flip phone, isn't it?
SAMUEL BURKE, CNN BUSINESS AND TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, except that was like 2009, and here we are 2019 and a different type of foldable screen
is back.
[14:55:00] I was on an airplane the other day and I noticed that more people were doing this to watch a movie than using the screen in front of
them.
So, in some ways, this really make sense to have a phone that folds into a tablet or is it a tablet that folds into a phone? What they've showed just
now is that it has three different screens, so there's the big screen, but then if you fold it on the backside, could be a phone call, that means you
could watch your favorite Netflix series, Google who the actors are, and text me all about it at the same time.
Now, I thought that was going to be the most incredible thing, this change in technology. But I just want to put on the screen all the details for
you. Because, Hannah, it is incredible. The price tag is $1,980. And that's what price it starts at. So we don't even know what the most
expense version will cost.
So the big screen is about 7.3 inches. The smaller one that folds into the phone, a little over four inches, two batteries if you're doing all that
computing with the screens. You're going to need that. And both 4G and 5G versions.
Now, that price, I know that's what you're going to want to talk about. But if you think about this, Apple's most expensive phone, the iPhone XS
Max cost $1,449, I believe. This is way more than that. But Samsung has so many more phones that they can have different price points into the
market. So they've talked about this being a luxury device. So clearly that -- they're making that calculation there. Your face just -- like,
wow.
JONES: It just seems like we're going back in time, back to this idea of a foldable phone. Is it -- is it really that new? Are there other, sort of,
gimmicks as well to go with the gadget -- rather would go with the new design?
BURKE: In a way, it's similar to the flip phone. You were smart for mentioning that. Because the flip phone gave you more features, but
allowed it to go into a smaller space. This is doing exactly that, allowing you to create a way to watch movies or TV series in a different
way.
Now, that phone being more bendable, the screen being more bendable should mean that it's less likely to break. So in that sense very strong.
And I think at the end of the day, what this really shows, forget all the other stuff, the great cameras that also coming out in the S10, which
they're announcing as we speak. This really shows how Apple has fallen behind the Asian phone makers. Whether it's Samsung, Huawei, which will
inevitably have a foldable phone and Xiaomi which was -- as well.
JONES: I was going to ask you about the competition whether the others were all going to do it as well.
BURKE: And it used to be that Apple was the first one. They really led with the touchscreens. Now, Apple already had these big phones out and
they don't have anything like this. We saw earlier today Xiaomi coming out with some strong stuff, but not the way that Samsung has made the first
move here with the first really foldable phone or tablet, depending on which way.
JONES: Expecting how the first one in the newsroom as well. Samuel, thanks very much indeed.
Thank you also for watching tonight. Stay with us here on CNN for an exclusive interview with Federal Reserve Vice Chairman Richard Clarida.
"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
