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Hala Gorani Tonight
Iran's Supreme Leader Dismisses Possibility of War with United States; Pompeo and Lavrov Meet Amid Heightened Global Tensions; Trump Says Has No Plans to Send Troops to Middle East; Major Security Flaw Could Let Hackers Access Your Phone; China Retaliates for Steep New Tariffs; Pompeo Says There Are Places Where U.S. and Russia Can Cooperate. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired May 14, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00] HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London, I'm Hala Gorani.
Tonight there will be no war. Iran's supreme leader rules out conflict. Is the U.S. President on the same page? Also this hour, well, it concerns
more than a billion of us, WhatsApp, one of the most popular messaging tools in the world is targeted by a sophisticated hacker. And I'll be
speaking to Hungary's foreign minister.
We begin with the heightened global tension between the United States and Iran. And we've heard directly from Iran's supreme leader dismissing my
possibility of war with the United States according to state television. He said Iran is determined to resist instead against the great devil. It
comes as the top diplomats from the United States and Russia meet in Sochi and they had a lot to talk about, Iran was high on the agenda. Here's the
U.S. Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: We do not see a war with Iran. We've also made clear to the Iranians that if American interests are attacked, we
will respond in an appropriate fashion.
We're covering all these angles today. Matt Chance and Fred Pleitgen are with us. He said essentially, we don't seek a war nor do they. Have the
tensions now noticeably decreased in that part of the world?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I don't think they've decreased at all. You still here mixed messages, if you will, from
a lot of the authorities. On the one hand, you have heard from Iranian politicians who said it's the Americans who are escalating, that the
Iranians don't want an escalation, but you have also heard from military commanders saying if there is an escalation, that Iran would be able to hit
back very heart.
The supreme leader coming out with a very statement that he made saying that there will be no war. I want to read a little bit from what was
officially put out by the supreme leader's website. He said, quote, the Iranian's nation option is resistance against the U.S. and in this
confrontation, the U.S. will have to withdraw. This is not a military confrontation because no war is to happen. We don't seek a war, nor do
they. They know a war wouldn't be beneficial for them.
This confrontation is a confrontation of will powers and our will power is stronger because in addition to our will power, we also enjoy relying on
god. He's saying that the Iranians are going to outlast the Trump administration. But there's another important thing to this which came
later. He also said that there absolutely are not going to be any negotiations with the Trump administration. He said the negotiations would
be poison.
And he said it would be double poison because the Trump administration is demanding a lot from Iran but not willing to give anything back, Hala.
GORANI: Interesting, the rhetoric at least is reassuring. Matthew Chance, the two men had a lot to discuss. They talked about North Korea, they
talked about their agreements on Venezuela. Pompeo brought up the issue of the Crimea annexation, Syria as well as Iran. What was the big takeaway
from this news conference they held after their meeting?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The big takeaway for me was they didn't have much to agree on at all. Mike Pompeo went into
this meeting saying he wanted a better relationship with Russia. The Russian foreign minister said it was -- what did he say, a frank and useful
conversation. He said it was meaningful and detailed.
When they got into itemizing all the details, whether it's the latest escalation in Iran, the situation in North Korea, whether it's the conflict
in Syria, the situation in Ukraine, even arms control, and they have no common ground whatsoever. There was even a ree fusel on the parts of the
Russians to acknowledge any wrongdoing in the U.S. Presidential election. They've been denying that time and again. Sergey Lavrov denied that.
[14:05:00] Didn't get the sense that there Lavrov denied that. Didn't get the sense that there was much in terms of real concrete agreement between
the two sides at all. To add to that, I think this is adding insult to injury. There was supposed to be a meeting between Mike Pompeo and
Vladimir Putin. That was supposed to have taken place three hours ago. And Putin didn't turn up. The expectation is he'll turn up tonight. But
he kept t U.S. Secretary of State waiting.
GORANI: That was going to be my next question. The expectation for us was that this meeting would happen around 11:00 a.m. eastern time. I didn't
happen. So now it's possible that it might not happen at all or are we expecting Pompeo to meet Putin later or what do we know about that?
CHANCE: It's possible it won't happen of course. Vladimir Putin is always late for meetings. I think it's like a power game, he's in control. He
likes to determine when the meeting is going to take place. It was meant to start three hours ago. He's been inspecting Russia's latest high-tech
weaponry looking at the hyper sonic missiles, the stealth fighters. And those pictures have come out while these meetings between the Secretary of
State and Russian foreign minister were under way. We're told he is going to be meeting Vladimir Putin later on tonight. But it's past 9:00 at night
here local time.
And so, you know, this is going to be a very long wait or even a long wait for America's top diplomat.
GORANI: Well, we are going to keep our eye on that because as you mention, and as we've told our viewers, expecting that meeting to happen hours ago.
Thanks very much to you.
Let's take a bigger look at all of this. A CNN global affairs analyst joins us now. What do you make of this Vladimir Putin meeting delay,
playing games a little bit with the U.S. Secretary of State on his own turf?
DAVID ROHDE, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Putin has done this before, to be fair to Pompeo. I was writing a profile with John Kerry, and Putin made
Kerry wait for hours and hours. This pattern isn't new. The clear sign today is that there is no sort of great meeting of minds or some great
alliance, you know, between the U.S. and Russia. When you look at issue after issue, the two countries don't agree.
GORANI: Right. But there was no expectation of any kind of miraculous breakthrough today, was there, David?
No. And I'm pushing back more on kind of a long-running Trump administration narrative that there was this possibility of creating a
better relationship with Russia and post Mueller investigation now is the time when that could happen. But again, I don't see where these -- what
the issues are that they can agree on.
GORANI: It doesn't sound like there overlap on Syria. The U.S. Secretary of State brought up the annexation of Crimea as well. I'm wondering when
you hear from the supreme leader of Iran, we do not seek war, Pompeo reiterated that. We are not looking for a war. Should we all be reassured
here?
ROHDE: I think so, but there's mixed messages kind of coming out of both governments. There's a hard line. In the U.S. there was talk of, you
know, American forces possibly being threatened in Syria and there was a British general who said there is no increased threat from Iran towards any
western forces in Syria. So this is how things -- mistakes happen.
These attacks on the tankers, it's very unclear what happened. Could that have been some element in Iran's security services, it's not clear to me at
this point. It's reassuring. These are the right messages, but it's a very tense situation.
GORANI: There was a report in the "New York Times" that the U.S. defense secretary had drawn up a plan, among other plans I'm sure, for 120,000 U.S.
troops to head to the region in case U.S. assets were attacked. Donald J. Trump was asked about this report. Here's his answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now, would I do that, absolutely. But we have not planned for that. Hopefully we're not going
to have to plan for that and if we did that, we would send a hell of a lot more troops than that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Classic Trump. Could this be a report that, you know -- could this be something the U.S. wants Iran to think is an option.
[14:10:06] ROHDE: It could be. But this is a major change in the U.S. administration. There's a new Defense Secretary Shanahan that is carrying
out Trump's demands for these kinds of scenarios or at least John Bolton's demands. And Defense Secretary Mattis wouldn't do that. It's sort of
extraordinary. I don't understand what the President and the administration is saying. There's all this tension with that. It's sort
of extraordinary. That. It's sort of extraordinary.
I don't understand what the President and the administration is saying. There's all this tension with Iran and Iran's largest ally in Syria has
been Russia. There's all this tension with North Korea and Russia is helping North Korea violate the embargo there. It's a confusing message
there from Trump. And the problem is, he threatens this use of force and he doesn't say he's going to actually do it. If you keep, you know, making
that bluff, it will no longer be effective.
GORANI: So, what do you think -- what do you think then will happen in this situation? Because it's quite tense in the region. There was that
attack on the tankers, two of which were Saudi, whether it's Iranian proxies, whoever it is, we're not sure. It's certainly raising the level
there of anxiety. Will this be resolved peacefully?
ROHDE: I think it will. I think the President doesn't want an armed conflict with Iran that would increase oil prices, the U.S. is now
cushioned more from oil prices due to natural gas. Armed conflict in the gulf is not going to help. Donald Trump has an election coming up next
year. They don't need to strike a deal with him. They're not going to start talks as the supreme leader said and I think North Korea is doing the
same thing, Venezuela.
The President has no achievements with Iran, with North Korea or with Venezuela and I think all three governments are simply going to wait out
Trump and hope he loses the election in 2020.
GORANI: Thanks very much. Appreciate it. I don't know if David uses WhatsApp, I'm assuming he does. There's 1 1/2 billion people around the
world the world who do as well. All of you, all 1 1/2 billion of you, you're going to want to listen to this next story. The popular messaging
service is warning all of its users to update their apps. When you use WhatsApp, you expect it to be encrypted. The company says they've fixed
the flaw.
The source tells CNN software from Israel's NSO group is behind the attack. And they say their technology is only used to fight crime and terrorism.
What does this mean for the many of us who use WhatsApp? There's no indication of how many people were targeted. Still lots of questions to be
answered. And Samuel Burke is here with that. If I've received a call from an unknown number in the last few weeks, should I be concerned?
SAMUEL BURKE, CNN MONEY BUSINESS AND TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: You should be concerned. But what's even more mind-boggling than that, sometimes
investigators say what's happening a call is coming in, but you won't have heard it or seen it or it doesn't even show up in your call logs. With
that invisible call, the software is showing up on your phone.
You may not have any evidence that something has come in. In this software which comes from NSO, that software can take advantage of your microphone
as well as your camera and listen and hear everything that you're saying and doing. Think about how much time you spend around your phone. It's
probably something close to 24 hours a day. And I'm sure you've said or done something that you don't want broadcasted.
GORANI: Like ten minutes ago. Anyway. How do I know if my phone has been infected?
BURKE: You can't know for sure. If something shows up on your phone from an unknown number, you should be suspicious. Right now, all of your
viewers should follow these instructions. You need to go in and update what's up WhatsApp. Follow these instructions. I'll tweet them out. Do
it right away. Don't delay. And, yes, if you are a journalist, if you're a dissident, if you've seen something suspicious, you might want to go
through and backtrack and make a log of what you've done.
GORANI: Journalists, human rights activists. Anybody living in a dictatorship. If I update the app, does it block the software?
[14:15:00] BURKE: No, it will not. At that point that software is already on your phone and then you have to hope that Apple or Android are updating
their devices for you and have caught that. I used to say on your show back in the day, wait for an I/O update. A few years ago I stopped saying
that. A lot of times, those telephone companies reacting to software that they've seen has left a whole so somebody -- they've sold this software to
many companies in the gulf. Whole so somebody -- they've whole so somebody -- they've sold this software to many companies in the gulf. If you get a
chance to update it, update frequently and always.
GORANI: Do we know how many people are impacted here?
BURKE: Absolutely not. It's usually going after specific people. I would guess the number is very low, the people that governments are going after
are targeting citizens this way. Though we have seen reports of other countries where you wouldn't think they have governments like this, reports
in Mexico, a software being used to target journalists.
GORANI: Anybody with that NSO software can do this? What is this --
BURKE: This is software that a government would buy from NSO, for example, it's not the only one, there are companies in Italy. They buy that and
they sign an agreement saying we're going after terrorists --
GORANI: That's what they always say.
BURKE: And of course the definition of terrorist are different in every country. They can administer this software in different ways. When NSO
says our software isn't meant for that, we don't know what these governments have done with this software.
GORANI: When I use WhatsApp, all of our viewers who use WhatsApp, they trust that their communications are encrypted. Are there other messaging
apps that are less vulnerable?
BURKE: Don't confuse this. This is a problematic software that happened to come in via WhatsApp. This time it will come in via another app.
Sometimes it comes over plain text messages.
GORANI: Thank you. You'll be tweeting out that list of recommendations. Thank you very much.
Still to come, a little squabble. That's what the American President called his trade war with China, an escalating dispute that's shaking
markets worldwide. Also ahead this hour --
If you use social media to take selfies, then you're probably familiar with filters like these. But are they just harmless fun or can they be
dangerous?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: That meeting between the U.S. Secretary of State and the Russian President has taken place. Here's video and let's listen in to what the
men are saying as well -- no. It froze. We'll get back to it once we are able to fix that small technical issue. But just reiterating, Vladimir
Putin, the Russian President has finally hosted Mike Pompeo, the U.S. Secretary of State. We were waiting for word on that meeting for a few
hours and we'll bring you that video once we're able to play it.
The U.S. President is downplaying his trade war with China insisting things will turn out, quote, very well. He spoke to reporters saying talks have
not collapsed and he stressed his extraordinary relationship with President Xi Jinping.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[14:20:00] TRUMP: We're having a little squabble with China because we've been treated very unfairly for many, many decades, actually, for a long
time. And it should have been handled a long time ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: The feeling on Wall Street is also more optimistic today. The Dow is gaining back at least some of its huge losses from Monday when China
announced it was retaliating with tariffs. Let's bring in a global economic analyst. What are we seeing on Wall Street today?
RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST: I think wishful thinking. They always say that stocks are the dumb money and the bond market is the
smart money. Stocks have been pinging up any time the President says something that's mildly dovish around China. Companies are simply
desperate that there not be this paradigm shift. Something that's mildly dovish around China.
Companies are simply desperate that there not be this paradigm shift. I think we are headed towards a paradigm shift. The bond market is looking
nervous. If you stand back and say what are the issues here? We're not talking just about soybeans or computer parts, we're talking about the U.S.
asking for change in the Chinese regime. That was the sticking point here. The U.S. administration saying we don't want you to subsidize state-owned
businesses, we want you to privatize everything. That's not how China works. And I have a hard time imagining that's going to change.
GORANI: Where does this leave us? The President said we were 95 percent there and it's the Chinese who backtracked at the last minute. What do you
make of that?
FOROOHAR: The Chinese did do some back tracking they say around language and wording. But I think at the end of the day there simply was no real
set agreement about the one world, two systems. China and the U.S. have a different way of looking at the market system, very different way of
supporting business. And I think we're headed to a more buy polar world. Europeans are being pressured by the U.S. to go with Qualcomm chips but
looking at Huawei saying they're cheaper and we're being assured they're safer. You're seeing China with the one belt one road doing a lot of
diplomacy in Europe. I think that we are in --
GORANI: In the near term -- sure, but in the near term, you were looking at a trade war that has just started, really. And the U.S. can absorb some
of it because the economy is blooming. But if this -- this can't keep going on forever, it's going to start hurting the United States. It's
already hurting exporting economies in Europe like Germany, for instance.
FOROOHAR: It is. And I think the economy is not nearly as strong that the President says, we're at the end of a recovery cycle. Absolutely, 25
percent tariffs are going to be absorbed by the consumer, the American family may pay as much as $800 a year more from clothing to furniture. And
this is an unforced error, the top ten states in the U.S. that will be most effected by a trade war, eight of them voted for Trump. This is a tricky
high stakes game of poker he's playing right before a 2020 election.
GORANI: Thanks very much. Always appreciate your analysis.
Let's go back to Sochi, Russia. Let's listen in.
VLADIMIR PUTIN, PRESIDENT, RUSSIA (through translator): Mr. Secretary of State, dear colleagues, we are glad to welcome you in Russia. As you know,
several days ago, I had the pleasure of talking to the President of the United States on the phone and I had the impression that the President
intends to -- intends to rebuild U.S.-Russia relations and contacts in order to solve the issues of mutual interest.
[14:25:00] On our behalf, we have said it multiple times, that we also would like to rebuild fully fledged relations. And I hope that right now a
conducive environment is being built for that because however exotic special counsel Mueller was, on the whole he had a very objective
investigation and he confirmed there have been no traces whatsoever of collusion between Russia and the incumbent administration which we said was
absolutely fake as we said before. There was no collusion from our government officials and could not be there -- that was one of the reasons
certain breaking our interstate ties.
I'm hoping today the situation is changing and the common interests in maintaining strategic stability, nonproliferation of weapons of mass
destruction, of solving crisis, fighting criminal gangs, including environmental issues of eradicating poverty and fighting other threats of
modern times and also several issues of economic matters. Our trade was quite low and over the past years it has plummeted.
Still over the past year, we saw some increase in trade. I think it has grown by 5 percent, around 5 percent. We know that the United States have
become a major world producer, and in this regard, we also have something to discuss regarding the stability of global energy markets. There are
also other facets for our cooperation in economics here.
I hope that all that could be -- my foreign minister reported to me in brief about your negotiations and I wanted your visit as Secretary of
State, your first time here, would benefit our bilateral ties and would facilitate their development. And we're very happy to see you here.
POMPEO: Thank you for spending some time with me this evening. We did have a productive set of conversations this afternoon between us. On
places we disagree and places where we can build on. Always -- there are places that our two countries where we can be cooperative, productive. We
can work together to make each of our peoples more successful and the world more successful too.
So President Trump wants to do everything we can and he asked me to travel here to communicate that when we have a chance in a little bit, a couple
other ideas to suggest. But some of our cooperation has been excellent on North Korea, on Afghanistan. We've done work good, counter terrorism work
together.
These are things we can build upon and I know we'll get a chance to talk about our strategic security dialogue as well and the hopes that we have
that to work along side on that. It's a very important project. Thank you for having me here this evening.
GORANI: And there you have it. The Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, meeting finally with the Russian President Vladimir Putin as our senior
international correspondent said earlier, we expected that meeting a little bit earlier. We heard just about a couple hours ago from Sergey Lavrov,
they discussed the topics, many of which are in fact subject to disagreement. Mike Pompeo said there are places we disagree but places of
overlapping without expanding on that. We'll have more on that visit to Sochi by Mike Pompeo after a break.
And still to come, a closer look at this week's White House meeting between the leaders of Hungary and the U.S. Hungary's foreign minister joins me
live to talk about that and what critics say is the misplaced praise Donald Trump has for Victor Orban. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:30:08] HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: A night of deadly violence in Sudan, as people take to the streets by the tens of thousands in pro-
democracy protests still. Witnesses tell CNN that soldiers actually used bulldozers to clear a sit-in and that six people were reported killed after
gunfire erupted.
Nima Elbagir has reported extensively on the unrest there. And she's with me here in the studio.
What happened with this bulldozer? And I know that protestors are still demanding an end to military rule, on transition to civilian.
NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, it feels like this has been a long time coming because protestors have been so
insistent upon their demands that there'd be a civil transition of rule.
And the military transitional council had promised, had vowed publicly the U.S., the European Union, all of them have been pressuring them to not push
the demonstrators out by force. Yesterday evening, finally, it seems like somebody cracked and government forces turned up the bulldozer first. And
we have a video we can show our viewers.
GORANI: Let's take a look at it. We're going to run it now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELBAGIR: So this was -- you can see that standoff with the Rapid Support Forces, a government paramilitary force.
GORANI: And what happens next?
ELBAGIR: And in a moment now, you're going to see the flashes going up into the air. That is the gunshot. They started using live ammunition on
unarmed protestors. And what you can hear the protestors shouting there is "peaceful."
What is extraordinary -- and then, again, there, you see those flashes, that's live ammunition again. What is extraordinary is that, today, there
are even more protestors at that scene. Tens of thousands of people have turned up insisting on their rights.
GORANI: What does this tell us about what's going to happen next here? Because there was the sense a few weeks ago, and you were in Khartoum, that
this was a victory for the protestors, that the military was promising a transition to civilian rule.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Now, they're using live ammunition and bulldozers. What's going on?
ELBAGIR: This speaks to a sense of desperation. Because the protestors have been so insistent, because they have maintained their position
throughout this, and there has been an awful lot of international pressure. They have now backed off, understandably, because there's been a lot of
condemnation, the U.S. and the European Union have come out.
But what it shows is how vulnerable this moment is in Sudan and what you could hear, actually, at one point was protestors shouting as they walked
towards that live ammunition, "hit me." Because the world is now watching. And the hope for them on the ground is the world will continue to watch.
GORANI: And the worry -- I mean, for -- I covered the Arab Spring and I remember the sense of excitement and optimism when the dictators were
finally toppled. But then years later, you look back and you think what these people got, instead, wasn't always much better. Is that a worry for
Sudan?
ELBAGIR: Absolutely. And it's a worry that the demonstrators are very cognizant of. Whenever you speak to any one of them, they immediately say
to you, we have learned and are learning the lessons of the Arab Spring, which is not to give away our main pressure point, which is continuing to
stay on that site.
And that -- you know, and it speaks volumes that they tried to push them out, because they know that that is the strength of this movement.
GORANI: But it's also worrying that now the use of force is happening again.
ELBAGIR: Six more dead. That is incredibly worrying. And over up to, we believe, a hundred people injured. It is incredibly worrying. But the
fact that they continue to stay on the ground, I think speaks to how important this moment is in Sudan's history.
GORANI: And today, any violence?
ELBAGIR: Today, tension but not violence. We've been told that people are very worried about what tonight will bring.
GORANI: Nima, thanks very much. We will keep our eye on this story. A very important story.
[14:35:02] North Korea is demanding the release of one of its cargo ships after the U.S. seized and impounded it last week. Pyongyang says the move
violates international law and goes against the spirit of the agreement between Kim Jong-un and Donald Trump.
The U.S. claims, satellite images show the ship was used illegally to transport coal for sale to other countries. The U.S. and U.N. believed
North Korea uses that money to fund its ballistic missile program.
As North Korea asserts itself internationally, there's growing trouble at home. According to the United Nations, about 40 percent of the country's
population is in urgent need of food after the worst harvest in a decade.
Paula Hancocks has our story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): North Korean farmers prepare the land from rice planting, a staple food in the country.
This footage was filmed last month by the United Nation's World Food Program, one of the few aid groups allowed to operate in North Korea.
It is a warning that recent climate conditions mean 40 percent of the population are now in need of urgent food assistance.
NICOLAS BIDAULT, ANALYST, WORLD FOOD PROGRAMME: What is clear is that the succession of bad drought, heat wave, and floods this year has badly
impacting the crop production.
HANCOCKS: The report from WFP and the U.N.'s food and agricultural organization says those most at risk are young children and pregnant women.
They warned the families being forced to cut meals or eat less. It's a warning that's being heard at the highest levels.
President Trump spoke by phone to South Korean president Moon Jae-in last week and supported the South's desire to send humanitarian aid.
MOON JAE-IN, PRESIDENT OF SOUTH KOREA (through translator): It would have the effect of cracking opened the door from the current stalemate and
talks. President Trump expressed the total support in that regard.
HANCOCKS: This, despite North Korea's suspected short range ballistic missile tests earlier this month, a violation of U.N. resolutions.
South Korea's unification ministry says they are working on a plan to send aid, but no specifics yet.
For some experts, concerns of food and security maybe valid, but the extent of the crisis is unclear.
ANDREI LANKOV, PROFESSOR, KOOKMIN UNIVERSITY: Something bad is definitely happening. However, they should also keep in mind that food prices at free
market, free food prices are stable. And it sort of does not agree this idea of famine just about to erupt.
HANCOCKS: WFP has 11 supported food factories in North Korea and provides nutritional assistance to some 770,000 malnourished women and children.
Its report is based on information gathered during the assessment in country last month and in late 2018, the WFP does acknowledge some data is
provided by North Korea itself, experts' fear that could be open to manipulation.
HANCOCKS (on-camera): The U.S. has been skeptical of humanitarian aid for North Korea in the past, because they say that Kim Jong-un is perfectly
capable of feeding his own people. He just chooses to divert millions of dollars into his nuclear and missile program.
But Trump softening of that stance could signal a return to aid shipments as an incentive for Pyongyang to come back to the negotiating table.
Paula Hancocks, CNN, Seoul.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Quick break. We'll be back with the Hungarian foreign minister. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:40:19] GORANI: Today's meetings between the U.S. secretary of state and Russia's president and foreign minister in Sochi, come a day after
President Donald Trump hosted the prime minister of Hungary, Viktor Orab at the White House.
Let's discuss that meeting. I'm joined by Hungary's foreign minister, Peter Szijjarto. He's in our New York bureau. Thanks for being with us.
So you accompanied Prime Minister Orban on this visit. How did the two men get along? How did Mr. Orban and Mr. Trump get along?
PETER SZIJJARTO, HUNGARIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, definitely there was a very relaxed and friendly atmosphere. But we were not surprised with that
since the two leaders' approach to the major dilemmas of global economy in a similar way.
So it was awaited the -- or it was expected the illegal migration, the fight against terror, and helping Christian communities ruled the agenda of
course with some European and economic issues together.
GORANI: But that's what raised eyebrows, this idea that somehow Christian communities in Europe need protecting. This is what the prime minister
said in the oval office. Let's listen again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VIKTOR ORBAN, PRIME MINISTER OF HUNGARY: I would like to express that we are proud to stand together with the United States on fighting against
illegal migration, on terrorism, and to protect, and help the Christian communities all around the world. So, president, thank you very much for
the invitation.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And you have been great respect to Christian communities. You have really put a block up and we
appreciate that very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Who did the Christian communities need defending from in Europe?
SZIJJARTO: No one speak about the Christian communities, they speak about Christian communities globally. We have a program in the Hungarian
government which is called Hungary Helps in the framework which we assist the Christian communities in the Middle East, given the fact that hundreds
of thousands of Christians were forced to leave their homes or are under discrimination.
And we help them to be able to return, we reconstruct their houses, we cover the medical expenditures of the hospitals, we rebuild their churches.
So, you know, our policy is helping them to return and to stay --
GORANI: But foreign minister, when the prime minister said this, the president then replied, you've done a great job. You've put a block up,
essentially referencing the fence you put up to prevent migrants from entering Hungary in 2015. The implication being you're protecting
Christian Europeans from migrants.
SZIJJARTO: Look, we have a very strong policy on migration. You're right. We made a very strong policy, which is against migration. And made it very
clear that the only way to enter the territory of Hungary is the legal way. Therefore, we are not ready to receive illegal migrants. We protect our
own border and we maintain our right to make a decision with whom we would like to live together by us and we remain --
GORANI: But because you feel the Christian identity of Hungary is threatened by these migrants, correct?
SZIJJARTO: We have to -- yes. No, we have to make it very clear, and we have to be brave enough to speak about it openly and honestly, that
according to our approach, Christian culture should be given priority in Europe since Europe is a Christian continent, by history, and we consider
it extremely important to preserve the Christian heritage and the Christian culture and the Christian faith in Europe. That is our position.
GORANI: And you feel it's threatened by migrants, this culture?
SZIJJARTO: Not only migration, secularism is another one, obviously. But migration is definitely a phenomenon which brought, for example, a new and
let's say modern form of anti-Semitism to the western part of Europe. And we have to fight against anti-Semitism as well and we have to protect the
Christian culture, in the meantime.
GORANI: Your prime minister is accused of using anti-Semitic tropes in some of his political messaging.
Did you see the letter by any chance written by the chairman of the house foreign affairs committee, Eliot Engel, that he sent to the president
trying to convince the president to cancel his visit with Mr. Orban? He said, "Prime Minister Orban" -- this is what he wrote in this letter that
he sent to the president, "represents so many things that are unethical to core American values. He's overseen a rollback of democracy in this
country, used anti-Semitic and xenophobic tropes in his political messaging and cozied up to Putin and also he suppressed independent media and
academic freedom."
How do you respond to the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee in the House of Representatives saying these things about your prime minister?
[14:45:04] SZIJJARTO: Well, first of all, that was a mission incomplete, as far as I understand since the meeting took place. This is number one.
Number two, these are lies. These are lies about my country and these are lies about our prime minister. This prime minister and this ruling party
have won three continuous elections in hungry and then gap in two for majority in the parliament.
Everybody, including the chairman of the foreign relations committee, must respect the view of the Hungarian people. And the Hungarian people made
very, very clear decisions.
When it comes to anti-Semitism, I think we can be proud on our track record fighting against anti-Semitism. We have interviews --
GORANI: You have a law in your country called the anti-Soros law. I mean, you know, and you're using -- I mean, you can't say we're fighting anti-
Semitism and then using the oldest anti-Semitic trope in the book in your political messaging.
SZIJJARTO: No, sorry. This is -- this is fake news. This is simply not right.
GORANI: How is that fake news?
SZIJJARTO: You say that our debate with George Soros should have anything to do with his religion. We don't care about his religion. We definitely
do have a serious debate with him, because our vision, regarding the future of Europe and the future of Hungry are two totally different visions.
And we have a serious debate. He went out with his strategy against the Hungarian government. We obviously responded. But it has nothing to do
with his religion. We don't care about it simply.
GORANI: OK. So you're saying that it has -- what I find entering is Steve Bannon, who as you know, where he is ideologically positioned, called the
prime minister of Hungary, Trump before Trump. What do you make of that? That Steve Bannon, a man who's an avowed nationalist, not at all a fan of
the European Union, who is trying to unite these anti-globalization forces in your part of the world and Europe says your prime minister is Trump
before Trump?
SZIJJARTO: Look, we respect the decision of the American people. I mean, it was your decision, it was a decision of the American people to elect
Donald Trump as the president. We respect the will of your people, we respect himself very much. We were never a part of the hysteria in Europe
which was created after Donald Trump had been elected.
I see that he's under an enormous pressure by international media. We are under pressure by international media as well. So maybe that has helped
the two leaders to understand each other much better.
So I respect this opinion, but you do have to respect --
GORANI: When you say pressure, you're just answering questions, that's what journalists do.
SZIJJARTO: Sorry?
GORANI: All right. No. I'm just saying, you say you're under international media pressure. It's just we're asking you questions.
SZIJJARTO: No, no, no. Questions are OK. That's why I'm happy to be here.
GORANI: And we're glad that you accepted our invitation.
Thank you, Peter Szijjarto, the Hungarian foreign minister for joining us on the program this evening.
SZIJJARTO: Thank you.
GORANI: Mr. Orban's visit to the White House was two decades in the making and some might argue it was worth the wait for the Hungarian president who
seems to have found a -- Hungarian prime minister, I should say who seems to have found a kindred spirit.
In fact, the former White House strategist, Steve Bannon, as we were just discussing with the foreign minister, called Mr. Orban the Trump before
Trump.
Now, last year, Bannon spent time in parts of Europe, working to ride the wave of populism. But with European elections just days away, is he having
any kind of impact in this part of the world?
Melissa Bell investigates.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MELISSA BELL, CNN PARIS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was at first discreetly that Steve Bannon began turning up in Europe. In March 2018,
Donald Trump's former chief strategist was seen wandering the streets of Rome, just ahead of an Italian election that would bring to power and
alliance of populist, led by Luigi Di Maio and Matteo Salvini's far-right.
STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: -- sovereignty and a call --
BELL: Just days later, Steve Bannon took center stage in France at the far-right's annual conference. His message, where Italy, other Europe
countries would follow.
BANNON: You're part of a worldwide movement that is bigger than France, bigger than Italy, bigger than Hungary, bigger than all of it.
BELL (on-camera): But Steve Bannon didn't just want to be speaking at events, his plan was to unite and coordinate European populist with
concrete actions like help with polling, advice on messaging and data targeting. And his plan was to do it through an organization called, The
Movement, based here inside the mansion of the Belgian lawyer who runs it.
MISCHAEL MODRIKAMEN, BELGINA LAWYER: The problem we face very quickly in Europe is legislation for one of these reasons. In many countries, it is
forbidden for a national party to get contribution in kind or in money from foreign sources. And we made our own work in, let's say, almost half of
the countries, in the E.U. it was impossible.
BELL (voice-over): The other problem for Steve Bannon was that some of the European populists he was helping to help, like France's marine Le Pen,
began to take their distances of draw. Nationalists tend to be defined by their nationalism.
[14:50:05] UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Mr. Bannon is not from a European country. He is an American with a political force that will be
born of the European elections, it is us and us alone who will build it.
BELL: So it has been in the absence of Steve Bannon and with the matter of weeks until the European elections, that European populists have been
trying to build bridges among themselves.
In April, Mateo Salvini brought together the Danish, Finish, and German populist far-right. And earlier this month, he met with Hungary's Viktor
Orban to inspect a border. But if fences make good neighbors, they hardly encourage unity between the parties that sits resolutely on either side of
them and cooperation has been hard to agree on.
Back at the movement's headquarters in Brussels, aspirations have been lowered from actually helping unify and coordinate Europeans to encouraging
and monitoring the broader spread of the populist wave.
MODRIKAMEN: When Bolsonaro wins the election, I mean, the movement is winning. If Trump is re-elected, the movement is winning. If we have good
score in the election, the movement is winning. But it's not a -- but it will end after the 26th of May. It's just starting.
BELL: Later this month, Mateo Salvini will hold another meeting of populist parties ahead of the May 26th elections. His hope, that unity may
help populists make progress in the polls, but for now, do not predict them the victory they seek Europe-wide.
Melissa Bell, CNN, Paris.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: We have a lot more to come. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: It's Mental Health Awareness week here in the U.K. One of the main themes this year is the issue body image. And in a world where
sharing selfies on social media is a regular part of life for so many of us, it's easy to see why body image has become such a concern, an
increasing concern, especially as filters and editing tools allow people to get smoother skin, whiter teeth, sparkling eyes with just the press of a
button.
But as these filters increasingly blur the line between reality and fantasy, as the pursuit of a flawless look gone just a bit too far?
Here's my report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI (voice-over): With almost half a million followers, KyRhys Devoe or Tuggzie to his fans, makes his living through Instagram. Like others in
his generation of social media influencers, he's on a constant quest for physical perfection.
KYRHYS DEVOE, SOCIAL MEDIA INFLUENCER: We all want to have smooth skin, we all want to have high cheekbones, we all want to have like frozen faces.
We just want to look perfect.
GORANI: KyRhys spends at least an hour editing each selfie using apps like Facetune and AirBrush. He's also part of a new trend which is seeing the
Snapchat selfie look spill over into real life.
DEVOE: I want to be a Bratz doll. I want to be a little Bratz doll.
GORANI: A doll is not human, by definition. Why do you want to look less human?
DEVOE: Because a doll is perfect. I just want to look like my actual photos on Instagram. So I want to look selfie ready all the time.
GORANI: KyRhys even gets regular cosmetic procedures done to look more like his edited selfies.
DEVOE: I don't want to have any lines. Because I feel like I just want to be a face cream version of myself.
GORANI: Today, he's having filler injected into his smile lines and under- eye area.
DEVOE: It's looking much better already.
[14:55:03] GORANI: KyRhys is not alone. Leading plastic surgeon, Dr. Dirk Kremer, says he's noticed his clientele get younger and younger, and edited
selfies play a big role in what people ask him for.
DR. DIRK KREMER, PLASTIC SURGEON, LONDON: Most of them come with a phone, with their phone and show me pictures, and that's how I get most likes and
most followers. And I noticed, and could we do that in reality? I'm tired of -- you know, modifying -- editing of the picture.
GORANI: And it just gives you a sense -- I show him the selfie I took with KyRhys. He edited the picture. I showed the doctor the before and after.
KREMER: Nasolabial folds are smoother.
GORANI: Gone.
KREMER: They -- well, exactly, that's easy to do.
GORANI: With filler.
KREMER: With filler.
GORANI: Dr. Kremer says before social media, clients would mainly compare themselves to celebrities.
KREMER: Now, you see the girl next door who looks amazing on the Instagram photo with all the filters they apply and suddenly, the competition is
much, much higher.
GORANI: But do you think it makes people more anxious about their appearance on social media, in what way?
KREMER: Definitely. The pressure is on. The young people, if they want to have a very successful account, they post constantly. They wake up,
picture, they go to work, picture.
GORANI: This obsession with personal appearance, that selfie culture encourages, may have darker implications for mental health.
DR. BRUCE CLARK, PSYCHIATRIST: In those people who have that psychological vulnerability, it can be particularly concerning. They are constantly
bombarded with the image and constantly referencing their own image in a way that was not seen before.
GORANI: At its most extreme, this fixation on appearance can manifest in a mental health condition known as body dysmorphic disorder or BDD.
For people like Alanah Bagwell, BDD can be completely debilitating.
ALANAH BAGWELL, RECOVERING BDD SUFFERER: Bradley left the house, I was stuck in a dark room, curtains closed, sleeping most of the day, I wouldn't
let my family see me. Have to bring food to the door. If I did have to leave my room and see my family, I'd spend about four hours applying
makeup. And even then, I would have a panic attack leaving the room.
GORANI: Alanah, says although selfies didn't cause her illness, the hours she spent taking pictures of herself exacerbated her condition.
BAGWELL: I felt that I looked so disgusting and deformed and monstrous, that I just wished to be normal. So, I post selfies in the hopes of this
sort of reassurance from other people. And when you hate the way you look, that can lead to you taking 100s before you find the perfect one.
GORANI: Our collective obsession with social media can be a very innocent and fun experience. But we are only just beginning to understand the
potential mental health impacts on this selfie generation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Thanks for watching the program. I'm Hala Gorani. Stay with CNN. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.
On the latest of the trade war between China and the United States, or as President Trump has been calling it, a little squabble.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
