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Aired July 22, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:22] HALA GORANI, CNN ANCHOR, HALA GORANI TONIGHT: Hello, everyone. Happy Monday. Live from CNN London, I'm Hala Gorani.
Tonight, dramatic new pictures from inside the British tanker seized by Iran. It comes as Britain's top diplomat says there cannot be compromise
on freedom of navigation in the Strait of Hormuz. We have a live report and analysis.
Also tonight, thousands of people pour into the streets as pressure grows on the embattled Puerto Rican governor, to resign. We're live in San Juan.
Also this. Who are these thugs? Shocking and chaotic scenes on the streets of Hong Kong once again. This time, a marauding gang attacking
protestors. We look at that question.
We begin with ordinary lives, unwittingly caught up in an extraordinary dispute. You are looking inside the British-flagged tanker, seized by Iran
in the Strait of Hormuz last week. These are some of the images coming to us.
These pictures aired on Iranian television. The shots appear to be staged, with crew members sitting around a table or working in the kitchen. The
video was released by Iran's semi-official news agency. We don't know when it was filmed. And the company that runs the tanker told us it cannot
vouch for the video's authenticity. So that's important to note.
The U.K. is doing what it feels it can, ramping up the military presence in the gulf to protect some of its tankers and establishing a European-led
maritime protection mission. The foreign secretary of this country, Jeremy Hunt, explained what that's about a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEREMY HUNT, BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY: It's clear, under international law, Iran had no right to obstruct the ship's passage, let alone board her.
It was therefore an act of state piracy, which the House will have no hesitation in condemning.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
HUNT: Even more worryingly, this incident was a flagrant breach of the principle of free navigation on which the global trading system and world
economy ultimately depends.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, that was Jeremy Hunt.
Matthew Chance is in Khor Fakkan on the Gulf of Oman, the waterway where the ship was seized, with the very latest -- Matthew.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hala, thanks very much. Well, just 200 nautical miles of this place to the north, the ship,
the Stena Impero has been impounded in the Southern Iranian port of Bandar Abbas.
We've seen those images, the first ones from inside the ship, of the 23 crew members, or some of the 23 crew members that was -- been broadcast on
Iranian state television. Be a huge relief to some of the families, I think, that have seen their loved ones caught up in this geopolitical game,
as pawns with no kind of end in sight, to that coming to an end.
But it is a very difficult situation, and one which the British have now said, they are taking further steps.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHANCE (voice-over): This is the moment Iran seized a British oil tanker in one of the world's most important shipping lanes, pushing tensions in
the Persian Gulf to dangerous new highs.
Iranian state media broadcast these dramatic images of what seems to have been a carefully planned military operation. Fast naval patrol boats,
surrounding the British-flagged Stena Impero before it's boarded by masked troops from a helicopter, hovering above its deck. Iran says the tanker
violated navigation rules.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, IRANIAN NAVY: If you obey, you will be safe.
CHANCE (voice-over): And now, audio recordings of radio transmissions have emerged, of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards ordering the British tanker to
change course.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, IRANIAN NAVY: If you obey, you will be safe. Alter your course to 360 degrees immediately, over.
CHANCE (voice-over): A British warship, too far away to intervene, advises the tanker not to comply, then addresses the Iranian navy directly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, BRITISH NAVY: You must not impair, impede, obstruct or hamper the passage of the MV Stena Impero. Please confirm that you are not
intending to violate international law by unlawfully attempting to board the MV Stena.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, IRANIAN NAVY: No challenge is intended. No challenge is intended. I want to inspect the ship for security reasons, over.
[14:05:08] CHANCE: (voice-over): But there are British suspicions, the real reason was this: a tanker carrying Iranian oil, seized by British
forces off the coast of Gibraltar earlier this month. Officials say they suspected it was heading to Syria in violation of E.U. sanctions.
For weeks, a furious Iran has vowed a response. Now, the Islamic Republic seems to have retaliated.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Matthew Chance, reporting there. We'll get back to Matthew shortly. Because a few minutes ago, Donald Trump, who's hosting, by the
way, the prime minister of Pakistan, Imran Khan, talked about what was going on in Iran and the tension between Iran and the U.K., saying Tehran
is using lies and propaganda to advance its cause.
He's referring to Iran's claim that it broke up a CIA spy ring and arrested 17 Iranian citizens who were working as agents for the United States. Iran
says those arrested have admitted to being spies, and some of them will be executed
Just a few minutes ago, as I mentioned, Mr. Trump had this to day about that. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I read a report today about CIA. That's totally a false story. That's another lie. They put out
propaganda, they put out lies.
Let's see what happens with Iran. We are ready for the absolute worst and we're ready for sense, too. But we are very geared up and if they are --
they are really the number one state of terror in the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: OK. This isn't something we haven't heard before from the U.S. president. Not making news on Iran. But reacting -- I mean, some have
said, in a more subdued way than some have expected regarding Iran.
Joining me now to talk more about the spy claim and tensions with Iran is CNN counterintelligence analyst Philip Mudd. He's a former CIA officer.
Here in the studio with me is Fawaz Gerges, international relations professor at the London School of Economics and the author of the book,
"Making the Arab World."
Phil Mudd, first of all, what do you make of Trump's reaction here to what's been going on in the Strait of Hormuz? Really increased tension,
Iran seizing a U.K.-flagged ship after U.K. -- the U.K. seized a ship that was potentially transporting Iranian fuel and oil. What do you make of it?
PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: You've also had, as you know, a tax there in the gulf on ships. You've had claims by Iranians, in this
case, in the past 24 hours. I think that some of these people in this supposed alleged spy cell have already been executed. You've got a hike in
oil prices.
I think it's almost -- you're looking at as tensions rise, the president who, as you know, can be as bombastic as anybody, gets more subdued.
Because of the seriousness of the situation, you're talking about a large portion of global oil to Asia, Europe and elsewhere, going through those
straits.
And you're talking about America confronting a regime that has taken American hostages in the past, and just took a U.K. ship. So the stakes
could hardly be higher. The president has, I think rightly, taken a subdued approach today.
GORANI: Right. Fawaz, how is Iran reacting? Because you have looking through Iranian state-sponsored and state-funded media and newspapers. How
are they covering it?
FAWAZ GERGES, AUTHOR, MAKING THE ARAB WORLD: Very (INAUDIBLE). Iranian officials and leaders feel triumphant. They feel --
GORANI: Why? Why do they feel triumphant?
GERGES: They feel that because they bloodied the nose of old colonial Britain, they were able to show and project power. They have the will and
the ability to retaliate against Great Britain. The headlines in major newspapers in Iran today, Hala, "Ship for ship." The reality is -- also
Britain, the United Kingdom, was caught unprepared.
Iran is really trying to increase the costs for the so-called maximum pressure policy by Donald Trump. It's trying to create a crisis, to force
the world to intervene in order to really help Iran escape the squeeze under which it finds itself. And so far, final word, really, as an
observer from the outside, Iran is skillful and cunning in the way that it has managed the crisis in the past few weeks.
GORANI: But the United States wants Europe on board, Phil Mudd. It's not getting Europe. The foreign secretary -- although he -- it might be a very
different person in a few days, if Boris Johnson becomes prime minister.
The U.K. has said this European protection mission that will guard tankers in the Strait of Hormuz will be quite separate from the U.S. maximum
pressure strategy. And they, the U.K. and others in Europe, say they're still committed to the Iran nuclear deal. The U.S. is not getting what it
wants here, is it?
MUDD: That's dead-on. I think Professor Gerges is dead-on as well. Look, the Iranians are better at this game than the Americans. They're more
subtle and they've had more history. Some of the Iranian leadership has been around since the revolution.
If you look at what's happening in terms of the division between the United States and the Europeans, the Europeans are far less likely to take the
Iranians head-on than the Americans seem interested in doing. The Europeans want oil pumped. The Europeans aren't interested in stepping
away from the nuclear deal.
TEXT: Tensions Escalate with Iran: Tankers attacked, Gulf of Oman, June 13; Oil headquarters hit by rocket, Basra, Iraq, June 19; U.S. drone shot
down, Strait of Hormuz, June 20; Iranian drone shot down, Strait of Hormuz, July 18; Iran takes British tanker, Strait of Hormuz, July 19
[14:10:07] MUDD: So one of the ways forward here, Hala, I think, is that the Iranians are going to offer some minor concessions. There have already
been suggestions from the Iranians about this. The Europeans are going to want to take those and squeeze the Americans. Because at that point, if
the Americans don't want to get back into a negotiating room with the Iranians, the Americans are going to be alone.
GORANI: How -- what does Iran want? What will de-escalate here, Fawaz?
GERGES: The Iran -- the --
GORANI: Because people keep talking about accidental war. It's not accidental.
GERGES: Not at all.
GORANI: This has been --
GERGES: Absolutely.
GORANI: -- you have had military tensions ramped up deliberately --
GERGES: Absolutely, yes.
GORANI: -- for weeks now. What will de-escalate?
GERGES: You have an economic war. You have basically military actions by multiple players. The Strait of Hormuz now is one of the most dangerous
theaters in the world. In fact, more dangerous than the Korean Peninsula.
What Iran wants, the Iranian economy is bleeding. Every day, Iranians are hurting --
GORANI: Can't sell its oil any more.
GERGES: Absolutely. So what -- remember, last year, Iran was exporting 3.2 million barrels of oil. Iranian exports now are less than 300,000
barrels a day. And the seizure of the Iranian supertanker, we talk about Grace 1, the supertanker, it had 2.1 million barrels of oil.
The Iranians wants to sell some oil. Not 3 million, but let's say 1 million.
GORANI: Yes.
GERGES: So the question on the table, will President Trump use the sword of sanctions in order to really bring Iran to the negotiating table. Will
Europe be able to convince the Americans to allow Iran to export, if not 3 million, 1 million barrels of oil? So far, the Europeans have failed to do
so.
GORANI: But that's the key. The key is scaling back on these -- on these sanctions against Iran, right?
GERGES: you know, Hala, we keep saying, "de-escalation." How do you de- escalate if both sides are basically confronting each other? Trump says, zero. He wants to make sure that Iran exports zero oil.
Iran says, "We're starving. We're bleeding. Our back to the wall." And this is why you have -- it's not accidental war. Iran is risking a major
crisis because the other -- time is not on its side.
GORANI: And for it -- for it, it is existential, here, at this point for Iran.
GERGES: Absolutely.
GORANI: It hasn't been able to sell its oil.
Are critics right, Philip Mudd, to question why the U.K. hadn't protected its flagged tanker better, knowing that this was a potential risk after the
seizure of the Iranian supertanker off Gibraltar?
MUDD: Well, I think it's a fair question, but I'd let the British off the hook. Look, if you're going to start flagging tankers in the gulf, it's
not just about the British. It's about the UAE, it's about the Americans, it's about everybody who has an interest, including the Russians and the
Chinese, for oil going through the gulf. So you have to have an international conversation with rules of engagement for a bunch of navies.
If I'm the Brits, I'm saying, "I can't go win (ph) this alone. We have to have a global conversation about how to secure oil going through the
straits. It's not just up to London."
GORANI: Yes.
You wanted to say something?
GERGES: Britain does not want to go with the Trump administration. In fact --
GORANI: No, it said so quite clearly. Yes.
GERGES: -- absolutely. It wants an international European one (ph) -- in fact, the British now are talking to their European counterparts to create
an international naval force. They don't have the capacity. Back to square one. At the end of the day, the question, how to resolve this
particular crisis.
What you're going to see in the next few weeks, Hala, the Grace 1 is ship- for-ship. And hard bargaining is taking place behind closed doors. The British are trying to save face because they won't allow Grace 1, the
Iranian supertanker, to be released in exchange for the British vessel. Because, in their opinion -- and they are correct -- their action was
legal, the Iranian action was illegal.
GORANI: Right.
And, Phil Mudd, I think it depends, also, who's in charge in the U.K. Because in a couple of days -- by the way, on Mueller testimony day is when
this country gets a new prime minister. The timing couldn't be -- you know, worse, I guess, if you're trying to cover both events at the same
time.
That could change. It depends who the foreign secretary is, who the prime minister is. If it's Boris Johnson, he could drift closer to Trump on
this.
MUDD: I agree with you. I think in terms of people who watch foreign policy, this is almost like the Super Bowl of foreign policy. You have the
bridge between the United States and Europe -- that is, London -- switching over to someone, Boris Johnson, who's talked about being closer and has
spoken about being closer with the president.
But Britain has an interest, as you've just said, that's different than the Americans in this case. So I want to see what Johnson does. He's not
going to have a lot of time. Within the first few days --
GORANI: Yes.
MUDD: -- he's going to have to make a decision. Is it the Americans or is it British interests? I don't know what he's going to do.
GORANI: It's going to be fascinating to see.
MUDD: Yes.
GORANI: Phil Mudd, thanks very much.
MUDD: Thank you.
GORANI: Fawaz Gerges, thanks very much.
The president, by the way, also talked about America's war in Afghanistan. And he said some startling things. He suggested he's been presented with a
plan, but one that could result in massive casualties.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're like policemen. We're not fighting a war. If we wanted to fight a war in Afghanistan and win it, I could win that war in a week. I
just want to kill 10 million people. Does that make sense to you? I don't want to kill 10 million people.
[14:15:03] I have plans on Afghanistan that, if I wanted to win that war, Afghanistan would be wiped off the face of the earth. It would be gone.
It would be over in -- literally, in 10 days. And I don't want to do -- I don't want to go that route.
So we're working with Pakistan and others to extricate ourselves. Nor do we want to be policemen. Because basically, we're policemen right now.
And we're not supposed to be policemen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: All right. In turn, Pakistan's prime minister, Imran Khan, says that right now is the closest that we've been, he said, to an Afghan peace
deal.
Puerto Ricans are responding en masse to the governor's refusal to resign. Thousands have blocked a major highway and launched an island-wide strike
to demand that Ricardo Rossello step down. San Juan's mayor says the governor's refusal to go is adding fuel to the fire after 12 days of
protests.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is a democracy. Why is this opposition movement so special that it doesn't have
to wait for an election?
MAYOR CARMEN YULIN CRUZ, SAN JUAN, PUERTO RICO: Because the crimes committed by the governor are so horrendous that it cannot wait. It cannot
wait.
PATON WALSH: So it's impeachment? Or it's just --
YULIN CRUZ: It is impeachment. It is impeachment time. He's obstinate. His mental health isn't there. He doesn't want to resign. It's
impeachment time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, our Nick Paton Walsh has been covering those protests in San Juan. He joins me now, live, with more.
What's this -- how many people are actually out there, Nick?
PATON WALSH: Well, there has, just ending now, been some pretty serious rain, which seems to have slowed some of the momentum.
But there were (ph) people out on the main expressway, Las Americas, who have been heading, since the weather was better earlier on today, hundreds
of thousands, at one point, briefly led by Ricky Martin, the pop singer and iLe (ph), Residente, the rapper. So sort of an idea, really, of how
global, how much celebrity elements this protest movement has begun to attract today.
But I think they managed to get across the message. They hope to get a million people out, unclear if they did. But certainly, in their number,
their voice was absolutely clear. Fueled, as you say, by Governor Rossello's statement yesterday, that he wasn't actually going to go
anywhere.
And it was, for me, a bizarre thing to do, just ahead of one of the largest protests this island's seen, to come onto Facebook and say, "I won't
contest the election next year -- which I'm going to lose anyway -- but I won't step down immediately, as all of you demand."
Now, some say, look, there's no obvious process here to immediately replace him, that wouldn't hail from the same political elite that so many of these
people are furious about.
The essential question now is, now he's made it clear he's not going anywhere, where do we go to? And it's most likely the impeachment process
that's beginning to tick away now, legal experts assessing whether the so- called WikiLeaks chat messages, leaked out from Telegram app, which show him and his inner circle using homophobic, misogynistic words to describe
so many of the people they're supposed to serve here, whether that's enough to begin congressional impeachment proceedings. And then weeks later,
potentially see his grip on power challenged.
But there are others too, who say he was democratically elected. Corruption scandals happen in nations all around the world that are
democracies. You've got to wait for the vote to get rid of them.
Still, though, now the rain has ebbed, the possibility we may see the protestors heading here, where they originally claimed they were going to
end up -- Hala.
GORANI: Is this going to put enough pressure on him to resign? Because it's been days now. He's showing no signs of wanting to actually go. And
also, as you -- as we saw on that interview with the mayor of San Juan, it seems as though the pressure will continue on him. But will he go?
PATON WALSH: Yes. I mean, I don't think he will go, frankly, at this point. We don't know what's happening inside the mansion behind me. I
mean, the police have come back out again. There's a large number of riot police in one of the governor's mansions today. We haven't seen that since
there were clashes last Wednesday.
It's unclear what his state of mind is. His critics say that it's basically compromised. He doesn't see the reality of how the people have
turned against him. I'm sure those around him, saying, "Stick it out. Maybe time will get you their confidence back." It seems unlikely.
Donald Trump, President Trump, has stepped in and he has said that he believes the mayor of San Juan is, quote, "a horror show." Well, she's an
opponent of the man he went on to criticize, the governor, who he said was "terrible." He essentially believes that what he mis-claims (ph), tens of
billions of dollars of aid have been sent here, have been squandered.
I think many, though, in Puerto Rico think the aid hasn't been used as wise as it could do. And there have been plenty of corruption scandals
involving indictments against former officials.
So a lot still percolating through here. I don't think tonight is the night where he necessarily goes unless there's something happening behind
those walls we don't know about. And protestors --
GORANI: Yes.
PATON WALSH: -- already plotting their next steps. It really goes, I think, to the legal proceedings now, on whether he'll listen to them --
Hala.
GORANI: Nick Paton Walsh in San Juan.
Still to come, shocking scenes from a Hong Kong metro station where groups of men, dressed in white, chased and then beat a group of pro-democracy
protestors. We'll show you the video.
[14:20:02] Plus, he brought us some of the most haunting and yet human images from the Syrian war. Now, a community is mourning the death of a
young Syrian photographer. That story is ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Police in Hong Kong say they have arrested two men in connection with a mob attack at a suburban train station. But the video from that
scene shows a much larger group of people, dozens of men in fact, armed with clubs and sticks.
They attacked a crowd of pro-democracy protestors. CNN's Anna Coren has that story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNA COREN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Terrifying new scenes of violence after seven long weeks of tense protests in Hong Kong.
Men dressed in white attacked in unison, bludgeoning anti-government campaigners as they returned from another (INAUDIBLE) demonstration.
Masked and armed with metal poles and wooden sticks, the men beat people, chasing them out of subway cars and out of the station.
YAU NAI-KEUNG, HONG KONG ASSISTANCE POLICE COMMANDER (through translator): When the police got there, they saw lots of people, around a hundred of
them. One patrol car of police is not enough to deal with the situation. The command and control center then sent out our colleagues with sufficient
gear.
COREN (voice-over): Police admit that they took over 40 minutes to respond to the attack on Sunday night. As defenseless people were bashed, dozens
hospitalized, at least six now in critical or serious condition.
Police on Monday had to deny accusations that they allowed Hong Kong's organized crime gangs, known as triads, to attack anti-establishment
protestors.
NAI-KEUNG (through translator): We can't just arrest people who are wearing white. We will deal with both sides fairly.
COREN (voice-over): The rift between those two sides may never have been so deep as now, as Hong Kong's embattled chief executive digs in her heels.
CARRIE LAM, HONG KONG CHIEF EXECUTIVE (through translator): They openly challenged the nation's sovereignty, tested the limits of one country, two
systems, and hurt the nation's feelings. They outraged the city.
COREN (voice-over): The Communist Party says any challenge to its authority in Hong Kong is the red line that cannot be crossed. But with
more protest demonstrations planned, Hong Kong's pro-democracy movement appears willing to stare them down, the government and the unknown men in
white who attacked them.
Anna Coren, CNN, Hong Kong.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: His photography captured the horror and humanity of the war in Syria, helping to open the eyes of the world.
[14:25:03] Anas al-Dyab, a 23-year-old Syrian photographer and member of the volunteer search-and rescue group, the White Helmets, died Sunday while
documenting Russian air strikes.
Jamana Karachi reports on his legacy of work. And we want to warn our viewers, some of the images may be disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMANA KARACHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Even when the world almost stopped paying attention, Anas al-Dyab did not stop taking pictures. He
wanted the world to see the living hell that his country had become.
Dyab's photographs brought us the worst of Syria today, like this heartbreaking image earlier this year, of six-year-old Hasna'a Qatran. The
lifeless hand under her knee was that of her three-year-old sister. Her one-year-old brother was also killed in that air strike.
But in the midst of tragedy, he never failed to also capture moments of innocence, the humanity that at times outlived the horrors of war. He was
witness to some of the darkest atrocities of our time, the April 2017 chemical attack on his town of Khan Shaykhun.
Dyab, a media activist and a member of the rescue group The White Helmets, was injured three times in recent years. But that didn't stop the 23-year-
old. He spent the past week documenting the brutal bombardment of Khan Shaykhun by the Syrian regime and its ally, Russia. And it cost him his
life.
Dyab was killed in an airstrike on Sunday. Colleagues and friends gathered to pay their final respects. And the White Helmets mourned him in a
statement, saying, quote, "Anas will always be remembered as the one who chose to stay behind the scenes and fight with his camera."
Less than 24 hours after his death, there were more bodies to bury, more victims to mourn, lives lost in one of the bloodiest attacks in months on
what's left of rebel-held Syria.
Death here has become the normal, the everyday. That is what Anas al-Dyab wanted the world to see, even as it turned the other way.
Jamana Karachi, CNN, Istanbul.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: There's a tone of anticipation in Washington this week. Lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are waiting eagerly for the latest televised
spectacle of the Trump administration and the Russia probe around it. That's because former special counsel Robert Mueller will reluctantly
testify on Capitol Hill, Wednesday.
[14:30:00] Some Democrats are hoping for an 11th hour breakthrough in investigating the president or that he will reveal something that wasn't in
the report or that he didn't say in his news conference. But even they are not united on that idea.
And then you have the Republicans casting aspersions on the whole process. The president very much included in that group. Though he is claiming that
he won't watch much of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not going to be watching, probably, maybe I'll see a little bit of it. I'm not going to be
watching Mueller because you can't take all those bites out of the apple. We had no collusion, no obstruction, we had no nothing, we had a total no
collusion finding. The Democrats were devastated by it. They went crazy, they've got off the deep end, they're not doing anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Let's go to Capitol Hill now, Manu Raju joins us now live. What's the expectation for this testimony on Wednesday, Manu?
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it really depends on who you ask. Democrats themselves aren't united about what this could
actually means. Some believe this could reshape everything. It could turn the tide of impeachment, force more Americans to support the notion of
opening up impeachment proceedings against this president, prompt more calls in Congress to do just that.
Others, the other Democrats are camping down those expectations. Saying, look, the special counsel has said that he will not go beyond the four
corners of the report. He's going to stick to the contents. He's a very discipline witness, and he's probably not going to give a whole lot of new
information. So you have an expectations games sitting on the left.
Nancy Pelosi who's the House Speaker, of course, she told her members last week in private, don't raise expectations and don't lower expectations.
Approach the hearing with a calmness and seriousness and see where this goes from here.
And on the Republican side, their expectation is they want to poke holes on Robert Mueller's credibility, do what the president has been asking for,
which is to promote the notion of the president in his view was exonerated. They want him to essentially say that and raise questions about why the
investigation began in the first place.
But ultimately, Hala, the question is, will either side succeed or whether they will end up coming up short, Hala?
GORANI: And what will the format be exactly for this?
RAJU: Well, at the beginning will be the House Judiciary Committee. There's going to be -- it's about three hours or so of testimony. The
members -- more than 40 members on that committee, each will have about five minutes to question the special counsel after the special counsel
delivers an opening statement, and then top members of that committee deliver an opening statement, followed by the House Intelligence Committee,
will have their own hearing with him and that will -- fewer members are on that committee, each of those members will have five minutes each to
question the special counsel.
But there have been some urging among the members not to give speeches as they often like to do when they have five minutes to speak. The questions
can be key to their questions, pointed and directly at the special counsel. We'll see if they can do just that, Hala.
GORANI: We'll see, and we'll certainly be following the testimony.
And as I was mentioning to one of our previous guest, that's the day the U.K. gets a new prime minister. So we're trying to cover both stories on
the same day. It's going to be hard.
Thanks very much, Manu Raju on Capitol Hill.
The president has focused on attacking his most likely democratic rivals come 2020. But we're join now by a Republican considering a challenge of
his own, former congressman, Mark Sanford of South Carolina. Thanks for joining us.
Are you -- have you decided if you'll run in the primary against the sitting -- against the sitting president, Donald Trump?
MARK SANFORD, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: I've not. What I've told folks is that I'll give it 30 days as we sort of explore and delve into the nuts
and bolts of whether or not there's a path forward.
GORANI: Well, he attacked you during a Republican primary. You basically lost your seat in Congress when he tweeted at you. Why would you do this
now?
SANFORD: Because I have invested the last 25 years of my life in terms of trying to have an impact on debt and deficit, and the way that our federal
government spends money.
And a number of friends brought it up and they kept bringing it up and they kept bringing it up. And therefore, if you've got a lot of time invested
in this particular issue, why not just take it a little bit longer and try and create something of a national debate here in the United States about
where we go on that front.
And indeed, they're right and that we've got a problem. And I watched two Democratic presidential debates and there was not one comment, not one
sentence either from a moderator or from candidates themselves on that issue that we have on spending and debt. And on the Republican side, the
president has ruled out action on the very things of driver debt and spending.
And so I think it's a needed debate. And the question is whether or not I can help drive that debate or not, and that's where we're delving into here
over these 30 days.
[14:35:02] GORANI: Would you call yourself an old school Republican, you know, concerned with debt, wanting smaller government, and the party has
now -- as you yourself have called it turned into a cult of personality.
What's going on with the GOP?
SANFORD: Well, I don't know. A lot of us are wondering that. And so, you know, the idea of old school, I guess brings back some connotations that
are not so good and that some people say, it's establishment of this or that.
I'm anything but establishment. I mean, I literally walk into the state House when I was governor in South Carolina with two pigs, one under each
arm. Bemoaning the fact that they were putting pork barrel spending ahead of some constitutional requirements of the state level. And I've looked
for any way of highlighting that issue over a long number of years.
But I think that -- you know, former speaker of the house, John Boehner, was right. He's like, "I'm not sure whether the Republican Party is taking
a nap right now."
And so those of us who have long considered financial conservatism, financial realism as a cornerstone to what the Republican Party is all
about have been struck by the fact that we are in something of a cult to personality, and those traditional and values aren't very much a discussion
these days--
GORANI: one has to wonder if you've lost -- if you've lost this party for good. I mean, after the president tweeted, you know, they should go back
home. Go back to where they came from to "The Squad," those four democratic congresswomen of color.
SANFORD: Correct.
GORANI: I was very interested in checking the polls after that. Because I thought, you know, maybe Republicans will be shocked by this. Not only
where they not shock, but Donald Trump gained five points in his popularity rating among Republicans after he tweeted that at those congresswomen.
So I wonder, is this Republican Party, the one you remember, the one you hope comes back one day gone for good?
SANFORD: I sure hope not. If so, I just wish the last 25 years of my life and a lot of other folks who have worked for a lot harder in the vineyards
than I have, have done the same, and that's not just an elected office, that's to the grassroots level, where a lot of people, I've literally had
thousands upon thousands of different meetings over the years with grassroots activists who's given time and talent to try and to make a
difference on this front.
So I would certainly see the point that we're at a different spot or universe right now. But when I talk to the average person out there that's
running a small business or a mom just trying to get the kids to and from school, what they tell me is, no, I still care about economic issues. And
I'm genuinely worried about the fact that we are spending it on unprecedented levels. We have a debt that we've never had in this time at
this level before, we have deficits higher than we've ever had before.
GORANI: A trillion dollar deficit just for the year. $1 trillion.
SANFORD: Correct. More than $1 trillion dollars. Never been there before, but that's where we are right now. And it's anticipated the whole
over the 10 years.
GORANI: Um-hmm. So, why if this an issue of such importance for conservative Americans, has it stop being so in presidential elections?
How do you explain that that's just really now a back burner issue to other topics that the president tweets about, talks about, and talks about a lot
in his rallies for instance? What do you make of that?
SANFORD: Well, I would say a few things. One is I differentiate between elected office holders and grassroots folks across this country. At the
grassroots level, I think the issue is still real and still has currency and that's what I'm exploring over these next 30 days.
At the political level, I agree with you. The issue is gone, because nobody wants to cross Trump. They don't want to be on the receiving end of
a bad Trump tweet. And so they're reticent about going against the gray and what he's laid out as a marker is we're not going to have any
discussion or debate or action on the various things that are driving our deficit.
I don't see a lot of Republican office holders who would want to cross him on that.
GORANI: Yes. You might have -- I mean, if you really enter the race, you will probably be the target of a few Trump tweets. I mean, I'm sure you're
expecting it. There was the issue of infidelity in your marriage, politically that harmed you at the time a few years ago.
Are you -- are you prepared for this?
SANFORD: Well, again, that's why I didn't say I was going. I said, I'm going to look at it over the next 30 days.
GORANI: Yes.
SANFORD: As to your point, would you get hit? Yes, you get hit and you get hit hard. That's the way he operates. But I go back to if we do
nothing, we're all going to get hit a whole lot harder by the economic consequences that's doing nothing in Washington.
I mean, historically, if civilizations have not figured out their math politically, then the financial market is still informed. And that
process, historically, has been bloody for people's savings accounts, the retirement accounts, their job prospect, even the value of the currency and
other things like that.
[14:40:04] Financial markets care about math. They don't care about spend. And I'm worried about -- you talk about getting hammered, we'll get
hammered a whole lot more than I might get hammered by a Trump tweet if we do nothing.
Last question, because we're seeing all over the world, Mark Sanford, what do you think the U.S. should do with regards to Iran?
SANFORD: You know, I personally voted against the Iran deal. I think that there was real false -- in some ways, mirrored what we've done in North
Korea., wherein, you know, we basically offered a help upfront and a promise of good things happening down the road that didn't happen in the
original deal that was signed by President Clinton back in the 90s.
And I thought that this deal had many of those same similarities. So I had voted the resolutions against it when I was in the U.S. House.
GORANI: All right. Mark Sanford, thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate it.
SANFORD: My pleasure.
GORANI: Well, speaking of politics, the votes have been passed now. Here in the U.K. the race to replace Theresa May as prime minister, has reached
its conclusion just a couple of hours ago pulled in the conservative party leadership race closed, with the winner expected to be announced on
Tuesday.
Boris Johnson remains the strong favorite and some lawmakers are, in fact, anticipating it to such a degree that they're already resigning and protest
against this possible victory.
Alan Duncan has quit as a foreign office minister and treasury chief, Philip Hammond, says he intends to resign if Johnson is confirmed as prime
minister.
So a new dawn is set to begin in Britain. Let's get into this. Bianca Nobilo is at 10 Downing Street for us tonight.
I remember covering three elections where the result was very much -- not at all what we had predicted. The Brexit referendum, the U.K. general
election, and the U.S. presidential election.
Is there a chance here that despite all this anticipation that it will be Johnson, it might not come to pass and we'll end up with Prime Minister
Hunt?
BIANCA NOBILO, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Even though, Hala, technically, there's always a chance, even I had to stake my reputation on
this and political analysts hate giving predictions. But Boris Johnson is the one that slightly to win this leadership contest. And that's because
of around 160,000 members of the Conservative Party, it's well-known how they feel about the two leadership candidates.
In fact, they will regularly poll over the last couple of years and Boris Johnson would always come out by far in the way as the favorite to replace
whichever Prime Minister was in power, whether it was David Cameron or Theresa May.
So everything does look set for Boris Johnson premiership to begin on Wednesday after Theresa May officially resigns.
GORANI: And then what happens? How will things be different? Because we heard from Jeremy Hunt today, who's certainly the foreign secretary, he was
certainly trying to dial back the tension between the U.K. and Iran over that seized tankers and we're still committed to the Iran nuclear deal.
How will things change in that regard with Boris Johnson as prime minister?
NOBILO: When we saw Jeremy Hunt addressed the House of Commons today and speak about the seizure of the British tanker, it really did underscore how
this prime minister is going to have to hit the ground running.
It is a key question of how this premiership is going to be different to Theresa May is because Boris Johnson or Jeremy Hunt would face precisely
the same problems, the same parliamentary arithmetic that's played Theresa May throughout.
And in fact, Hala, it may even be worst, because when Theresa May became prime minister, the cracks within the conservative party, specifically
around that issue of Europe and Brexit were there, but now, they have fully erupted.
So the next prime minister is going to be facing a more clearly divided party than before. Also, going to have to have the same problem with
renegotiating aspects of the deal with the E.U. And the E.U. being reluctant to do that.
But in the first few days following the next prime minister being sworn in to the role, they're going to have to choose their key cabinet positions,
which are going to be defining and we can expect to hear from some of those on Wednesday.
And another key position which the prime minister will have to select is the Brexit negotiator. Because they're not going to continue with Olly
Robbins who was Theresa May's Brexit negotiator, as he's largely responsible for the deal that she ultimately ended up with.
So this is going to be a momentous week, Hala. It is going to be the template for the rest of this person's premiership as the key figures are
selected to take this government forward.
GORANI: Right. Because there was a question, because this tanker issue is going to be one that tests Johnson if he becomes prime minister with regard
to where he wants to -- who he wants to lean on.
Does he want to drift closer to the United States, be more skeptical of the Iran deal, or does he want to maintain that close alliance with E.U.
partners a few weeks potentially before Brexit becomes a reality? That's going to be a real defining question of any Johnson government.
[14:45:07] NOBILO: It is. It's going to be a huge test. And as analyst often remark upon you expect to premiership T.V. defined by one issue, in
this case, it will obviously still be Brexit. But then other events and circumstances arise which you're going to have a massive impact on the
country, and this may well be one of them.
Boris Johnson has always been at (INAUDIBLE) and we know that President Trump speaks favorably about Johnson. He refers to him as a friend. Boris
Johnson has had rather different opinions of President Donald Trump in the past, but now speaks favorably about him too.
Donald Trump said just days ago that Boris Johnson is a different kind of guy. He's a different kind of guy. So they have a lot in common. And
that's likely to be a very key relationship going forward. And even though Boris Johnson is Euro skeptic, he will still have to find a way to harness
the support of Britain's E.U. allies in dealing with these escalating tensions in the gulf.
GORANI: There's been a lot written about Boris Johnson today. Notably in the New York Times. Not always very favorable columns.
Thanks very much, Bianca Nobilo at 10 Downing Street.
Johnson is one of the most divisive politicians in Britain. And he's made clear that under his leadership, it will be Brexit at all cost. So
politics could be about to get a whole lot messier here in the U.K. as we've discuss. Nick Glass reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK GLASS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just Boris, unmistakably Boris, the great blonde ambitioned himself rocking along and
disheveled as ever.
Boris Johnson, the most charismatic, shambolic, polarizing and recognizable British politician at this time, and now it seems unstoppably destined to
be prime minister. Around the country --
BORIS JOHNSON, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM: Bye-bye. See you. Thanks a lot to you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bye.
GLASS: It's been pretty much the same campaign speech for some weeks now.
JOHNSON: We can get Brexit done and we can win. There's only one way to get this country off the hamster wheel of doom and that is to get Brexit
done by October the 31st.
You know what we need to do? We need to get Brexit done and we need come out to the European Union by October, by October the 31st.
GLASS: Better opportunities aside, can Boris do it? Well, no one really knows. So Both Europe and the British parliament have been intransigent,
can Brussels, Johnson's needs to be regarded as a political lightweight, by some even appears to be despised.
The campaign has been carefully managed to stop Boris Johnson proving himself up, not always successfully.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How would you handle a Paragraph 5C?
JOHNSON: I would -- I would confide entirely in Paragraph 5B, because that is --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But how would you get run what's in 5C?
JOHNSON: I would confide entirely in Paragraph 5B which is --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know what a 5C?
JOHNSON: No.
GLASS: Paragraph 5C featured inside the so-called GAAP International Trade Agreement. Some commentators think that Boris Johnson should know
precisely what it is. As it evidently undermine his plans strategy in the event of no-deal.
Parts of the print media have already crowned Boris Johnson. In a Times cartoon, he's Churchill and his rival, Jeremy Hunt, reduced to a victory
cigar to be smoked at ledger.
It's a relatively small electorate to win over, just to paid up membership of the conservative party 160,000 of them.
GLASS (on-camera): What about Boris?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about Boris? Because I think we need to do something radical now. And I think Boris is the man to do it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has natural leadership ability. I think he's positive. It's a positive vote. I don't want more of this managerial
compromise.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's a breath of fresh air and I find him really, really entertaining.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What one quality do you most admire in your opponent as a future prime minister?
JOHNSON: I've worked very well with Jeremy over many years. And I think I --
(LAUGHTER)
GLASS: Do you think the future is clear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no, no. I still can't see how we're going to get where we're going to get to in the 31st of October.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can we get some decent --
GLASS: What's been evident from the campaign is that Boris Johnson is banking on a close relationship with Donald Trump. Highly reluctant to
criticize the president during the foray over Kim Darroch, the former British ambassador in Washington.
JOHNSON: I had a very good relationship with the White House and I'm very proud of what I was able to build up during my time as foreign secretary.
GLASS: The Guardian cartoon has depicted some Boris Johnson basking on an inflatable in a murky pool in the toilet-lid head of Donald Trump.
[14:50:00] The Spectator Magazine has the two men with interlacing ties, a love knot in prospect.
Boris Johnson is clearly a man in a hurry. He'll have a little more than 100 days until the end of October to show his medal. And perhaps, the most
challenging political crisis in Britain's post-war history.
Nick Glass, CNN with Boris Johnson on the campaign trail.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: There are new developments in Stockholm where authorities are holding an American rapper following a street fight. We'll have more from
Sweden, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Well, even Donald Trump is getting involved in something happening in Sweden, where prosecutors have dropped their investigation into the man
who American rapper, ASAP Rocky, allegedly assaulted.
However, it's unclear what that means for the artist. Melissa Bell is in Sweden with the latest.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MELISSA BELL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "Free ASAP Rocky, ASAP." The sign just outside the Stockholm remand prison, the only
indication of the controversy over the American rapper, currently being held inside.
On Friday, the American president weighed in.
TRUMP: I personally don't know ASAP Rocky, but I can tell you that he has tremendous support from the African-American community.
BELL: ASAP's more than 10 million followers haven't heard from the man himself, in nearly three weeks, ever since he was jailed in Sweden on
suspicion of assault, in connection with a brawl on June 30th.
These are the images of the heart of an investigation into the brawl of June 30th in Stockholm between a Swedish man and ASAP Rocky and his
entourage.
Other videos posted by the rapper on his Instagram, paint a different picture, one, of harassment.
ASAP ROCKY, AMERICAN RAPPER: Look, just for the cameras, we don't want no problems with these boys. They keep following us.
BELL: But the investigation into the Swedish man has now been dropped and the only party still being investigated is ASAP's and two members of his
entourage remain in custody here where they've been kept since July 3rd. They haven't been charged but were deemed, flight risks by the Swedish
judiciary.
The prosecutor has until Thursday to decide whether they should be charged, released or held a little longer if the investigation is not completed.
ASAP's lawyer told journalists that his client was innocent and had acted in self-defense. ASAP Rocky's lawyer and his media representatives have
not responded to CNN for comment.
Last week, the American president weighed in. On Saturday, Donald Trump tweeted that he'd been in touch with the Swedish prime minister saying that
ASAP was not a flight risk and offering to personally vouch for his bail, but that is not how things work in Sweden.
DENNIS MARTINSSON, SENIOR LAW LECTURER, STOCKHOLM UNIVERSITY: If you know the Swedish legal system, you know that there's no bail system. But then
he also said something like the Swedish prime minister would get involved in the case.
Actually, the Swedish constitution forbids any minister, even the prime minister, to get involved or even state anything about an individual case.
[14:55:03] BELL: Indeed, the Swedish Prime Minister said that he neither could nor would try to influence the judicial process, which means that
ASAP Rocky will remain in custody here until and if the prosecutor decides otherwise.
Melissa Bell, CNN, Stockholm.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: And we will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: After a week of delay, India launched its mission to the moon, today. The rocket will travel for two months before orbiting the moon and
landing a rover on the surface. That will make India the fourth country, only, to make a soft landing there.
The rover will spend 14 days on the moon and collect samples for research. Good luck.
I'm Hala Gorani. Richard Quest is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
END
