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Hala Gorani Tonight
Boris Johnson Seeks Snap Election; New Report Finds U.S. Spy Extracted From Russia In 2017; Remote Bahamian Towns Without Aid; Parliament Votes To Force Release Of Papers On No-Deal Brexit; Voters In Liverpool React To Political Turmoil; Sources: Trump Overruled Advisers On Taliban Meeting; Political Uncertainty Takes A Toll Along Irish Border. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired September 09, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:16]
HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: Hello and welcome, everyone. I'm Hala Gorani.
RICHARD QUEST, CNN HOST: I'm Richard Quest. And, again, we are live outside the Houses of Parliament because it's another extraordinary day at
Westminster.
GORANI: There is a flurry of activity behind us in the House of Commons. At stake? Could the future of Brexit and also the future of the British
prime minister, Boris Johnson, be in play? It's a race against the clock with just hours to go before the government suspends parliament so they
won't be working for five weeks, Richard.
QUEST: Now, at the moment, there's a sort of an end-of-school term feel about everything because there's an emergency debate under way that is
seeking documents, looking at the suspension of the government's plans for a no-deal Brexit. They're hoping to get more information.
GORANI: Right. And so this is one of the debates. There will be a few others this evening, and it will all culminate in the very important piece
de resistance moment for Mr. Johnson, who is seeking a snap election.
QUEST: Which is extraordinary because he's expected to lose, so we'll be investigating why he's bothering to have a vote on something that he's
going to lose. Also, despite a new law aiming to prevent that no deal. He does admit such a prospect amounts to failure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BORIS JOHNSON, PRIME MINISTER OF BRITAIN: I want to find a deal. I want to get a deal. Like you, I've looked carefully at no-deal, I've assessed
its consequences, both for our country and yours. And yes, of course, we could do it. The U.K. could certainly get through it. But be in no doubt,
that outcome would be a failure of statecraft, for which we would all be responsible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: So what does it all mean? Bianca Nobilo joins us now. Why bother with a vote on a snap election if he's widely expected to lose it?
BIANCA NOBILO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, he committed to holding this vote last week, that's when they announced it. So that was before the
opposition parties -- even though we thought that they wouldn't back it before they officially came out and said, "We're not going to support
this."
Because ordinarily, an opposition party, the Labour Party, or the other smaller opposition parties, should back any opportunity to have a general
election.
GORANI: Why not pull it? Why not pull it today?
NOBILO: Because it might be useful, even in terms of a campaign strategy, to be able to day, "Well, the Labour Party, you didn't have enough
confidence to go to the polls when we asked you. We gave you two opportunities. The first opposition in history not to allow an election on
their watch, and we were offering it to you on a silver platter."
There could be a number of strategies at play, or it could actually not be conspiracy, it could not be strategy. It could be the fact that they've
slightly fuffed (ph) up their hand here.
QUEST: All right. Now, in the event that all this plays out, the really important question is what happens during this interregnum, when the --
this prorogation. Because he's got to go to, with the letter (ph), sign (ph) the letter seeking a delay, by -- if he hasn't got another plan, by
October the 19th.
NOBILO: That's right. So parliament is now scheduled to come back after it's prorogued tonight, on the 14th, giving him five days to bring back a
deal that's approved by the House of Commons, or he has to write that letter, or he's breaking the law.
So Boris Johnson now has two options in that situation. Either he goes back on his word, or he breaks the law.
GORANI: Well, and which is --
(CROSSTALK)
GORANI: -- he going to choose -- or he resigns.
NOBILO: Or he resigns, yes.
GORANI: Would he?
NOBILO: It's being talked about today because he's --
GORANI: Does he have any other options?
NOBILO: -- well, exactly. He's booked himself in. That's why --
QUEST: Well, I mean, you know, yes, he could send the letter and immediately rescind it, which --
NOBILO: Or do this other option, of sending the letter and then sending an accompanying letter, undermining the first letter --
QUEST: Exactly.
NOBILO: -- saying that it would make (INAUDIBLE) life difficult.
QUEST: Exactly. Or sending a letter and basically not negotiating --
NOBILO: Yes.
QUEST: -- because, you know, he's obliged to accept whatever date comes back. But you could throw the ball into the European Court. And the
French, tonight --
GORANI: Well, it's not a given that the Europeans, especially the French, will grant an extension. Because I think from the point of view of Macron
-- pardon my voice, and this is not helping, by the way, behind us, the fact that I've lost my voice -- from the point of view of the French and
even the Germans, you can understand that this prolonged period of uncertainty is hurting them as well at this stage. And that they also
might want to rip the Band-Aid, which makes sense.
NOBILO: And Leo Varadkar has said --
GORANI: Yes.
NOBILO: -- in the press conference he gave with Boris Johnson this morning, that basically they're all getting fed up and he needs a good
reason in order to warrant an extension. Now, the E.U. have always said that, granted. But for them, a good reason is usually an election or a
second referendum. Those are the kind of terms that it's (ph) spoken about.
QUEST: If Boris Johnson does try and play games with the letter and the rescinding or not negotiating, if he does, they might still grant him the -
- the delay because they know there's an election coming. You've -- sorry, that was my phone -- oh, no, it wasn't, it was yours. Never mind. I'll
get it for you in a minute.
[14:05:17]
NOBILO: That's OK. But I agree. It's like game theory on steroids. This is just so difficult to predict. There are so many strategies that could
be in play, but it really is not just a game of chicken any more. There are so many different outcomes. And I find it very hard to believe that
this is the result of some kind of concerted strategy.
GORANI: Right. If there was a loss tonight for Boris Johnson, it will his -- how many, it will be his fifth loss in the House of Commons?
NOBILO: It would be, yes.
GORANI: In just a few weeks.
NOBILO: Yes.
GORANI: He -- if this is some high-level chess strategy, he's not very good at it.
NOBILO: Well, so the only way in which this might be electorally helpful for Boris Johnson is, on the weekend in Britain, this hashtag was trending,
#PeoplesPrimeMinister. This idea that Boris Johnson is the prime minister that's trying to deliver on the popular result of the referendum, and
parliament is stopping him from doing that. It's such a populist strategy, it's the establishment versus Boris Johnson, championing the people.
That's how he'll want people to see it.
QUEST: All right. Now, one of the most familiar faces in parliament to date --
GORANI: People will be very sad around the world. Because even those who don't follow Brexit closely, know one thing about this whole story. And
that's this man's "Order, order!"
But yes, as you said --
QUEST: Speaker John Bercow says he'll leave his post by the Brexit date of October the 31st or even earlier, if snap elections are approved for then
(ph). This is how he said he was off.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BERCOW, SPEAKER, HOUSE OF COMMONS: I have served as a member of parliament for 22 years, and for the last 10, as speaker. This has been --
let me put it explicitly -- the greatest privilege and honor of my professional life, for which I will be eternally grateful.
I wish my successor in the chair, the very best fortune in standing up for the rights of honorable and right honorable members, individually and for
parliament institutionally, as the speaker of the House of Commons. Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: So we know -- we knew he was going. He said -- he'd said earlier on, that he was going to leave us. But he's tightened it now. He will,
despite the crocodile tears on the Tory side, will he be missed?
NOBILO: He has been speaker since 2009, so it was about time. But there was a grudging respect, and then a genuine heartfelt respect across the
House, even those Conservatives that were very different from John Bercow when it came to Brexit and most other issues, and perhaps resented the fact
that even though John Bercow started his career as a Conservative in 1997, he did migrate and then was considered to be maybe defecting to Labour, so
they kind of resented him for that.
But there was a respect for him. It's a tough job, trying to command that chamber.
QUEST: Who gets the next one? Who -- do (ph) they (ph) go from either side, or do they --
(CROSSTALK)
NOBILO: No, it can be --
QUEST: -- one of the (INAUDIBLE) speakers?
NOBILO: -- no, it's any -- it's -- in terms of who will actually get the - -
(CROSSTALK)
QUEST: Yes.
NOBILO: -- next role, so anybody who's an M.P. can put themselves forward. You need between 12 and 15 other M.P.s to back you from three different
parties, and then it's an exhaustive ballot, I believe --
(CROSSTALK)
NOBILO: -- testing (ph) me this morning.
QUEST: No, no. I (INAUDIBLE), it's like (INAUDIBLE), right. Right (ph) on.
GORANI: And we'll get back to Brexit, of course, a little bit later in the program. But we have some exclusive CNN reporting I'd like to bring to
you. Ever since Donald Trump became American president, he and his administration have been accused of mishandling classified intelligence.
CNN has learned about a 2017 incident that is raising some new very serious questions. Sources say a high-level Russian government source, who had
been spying for America, had to be pulled out of Russia partly because of CIA fears that Trump administration leaks could expose that person.
Jim Sciutto is CNN's chief U.S. security correspondent. This is his reporting. He is standing by, live. Tell us more about this story -- Jim.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF U.S. SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Hala, multiple Trump administration officials with direct knowledge tell me that in a
previously undisclosed secret mission in 2017, the U.S. successfully extracted, from Russia, one of its highest level covert sources inside the
Russian government.
Knowledge of the Russian covert source's existence was highly restricted within the U.S. government. According to one source, there was no equal
alternative inside the Russian government, providing both insight and information on the Russian president, Vladimir Putin.
[14:10:08]
A person directly involved in the discussion said that the removal of the Russian was driven in part by concerns that President Trump and his
administration repeatedly mishandled classified intelligence, which could contribute to exposing the covert source as a spy.
Now, the decision to carry out the extraction occurred soon after a May 2017 meeting in the Oval Office, in which Trump discussed highly classified
intelligence with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and then-Russian Ambassador to the U.S. Sergey Kislyak.
The intelligence concerning ISIS in Syria had been provided by Israel. The disclosure to the Russians by the president, though not about the Russian
spy specifically, prompted intelligence officials to renew discussions about the potential risk of exposure. This, according to the source
directly involved in the matter.
At the time, I should note, then-CIA Director Mike Pompeo told other senior Trump administration officials that too much information was coming out
regarding this asset.
GORANI: And, Jim, this wasn't the first time that there were concerns about this asset being exposed?
SCIUTTO: That's right, Hala. And this is important context. At the end of the Obama administration, so months before, U.S. intelligence officials
had already expressed concerns about the safety of not only this spy, but other Russians assets, given the length of their cooperation with the U.S.
This, according to a former senior U.S. intelligence official.
Those concerns grew in early 2017, after the U.S. intelligence community released its public report on Russian meddling in the 2016 U.S. election,
which said that Putin himself had ordered the operation. The intelligence community also shared a classified version of that report with the incoming
Trump administration, which included highly protected details on the sources behind that intelligence.
Senior U.S. officials at the time considered extracting at least one Russian asset, but did not do so, according to the former senior
intelligence official. Then, the meeting with the Russians happened in the Oval Office. That raised new talks, and concerns in the intel community
continued to grow in the period after Trump's Oval Office meeting with Kislyak and Lavrov.
Now, weeks after the decision to extract the covert source, the president met privately with Russian President Vladimir Putin at the G20 summit in
Hamburg. You may recall that at the meeting, he took the unusual step of confiscating the interpreter's notes.
Afterward, I'm told, intelligence officials, again, expressed concern that the president may have improperly discussed classified intelligence with
Russia. This, according to an intelligence source with knowledge of the intel community's response to the Trump-Putin meeting. So, Hala, it was
not just one incident here.
GORANI: Yes. And the -- what has been the administration's response here?
SCIUTTO: So I've reached out to the White House, certainly also the agency and others. A U.S. official said that before the secret operation, there
was media speculation about the existence of such a covert Russian source. And such coverage or public speculation poses risks to the safety of anyone
that a foreign government may suspect could be involved.
However this official did not identify any public reporting to that effect at the time, of this decision, and CNN could not find any related reference
in media.
As for comment, Brittany Bramell, she's the CIA director of Public Affairs, told CNN, quote, "CNN's narrative that the Central Intelligence Agency
makes life-or-death decisions based on anything other than objective analysis and sound collection is simply false. Misguided speculation that
the president's handling of our nation's most sensitive intelligence, which he has access to each and every day, drove an alleged exfiltration
operation, is inaccurate."
A spokesman for Secretary of State Mike Pompeo declined to comment to me. White House Press Secretary Stephanie Grisham said, quote, "CNN's reporting
is not only incorrect it has the potential to put lives in danger."
I should note, this removal happened at a time of wide concern in the U.S. intel community, about mishandling of intelligence by Trump and his
administration. Those concerns were described to me by five sources who served in the Trump administration, the intelligence agencies and Congress.
I should also note that CNN is withholding several details about this spy, to reduce the risk of the person's identification.
GORANI: And that's understandable.
And finally, can we measure the cost of losing this asset?
SCIUTTO: Well, I've spoken to a number of people in the intel community and formerly. This is key. It's left the U.S. without one of its key
sources on the inner workings of the Kremlin and the plans and thinking of the Russian president at a time when tensions between the two nations have
been growing. The U.S. intel community considers Russia one of the two greatest threats to U.S. national security along with China.
A former senior intelligence official tells me, quote, "The impact would be huge because it is so hard to develop sources like that in any denied area,
particularly Russia... because the surveillance and security there is so stringent." Adding, "You can't reacquire a capability like that
overnight." Hala, in the simplest terms, this was a significant decision and a significant loss for the U.S.
[14:15:15]
GORANI: All right. Jim Sciutto with exclusive reporting. Thanks very much.
SCIUTTO: Thank you.
GORANI: Much more ahead tonight, including this, a firsthand look at one town in the Bahamas that was virtually wiped off the map by that Category 5
hurricane.
Also, Benjamin Netanyahu has a message for Iran. "Israel knows what you are doing." More on the Israeli prime minister's new accusations about
Iran's nuclear program.
Plus a top-level meeting at the president's retreat between the U.S. and the Taliban has been called off. First, was it ever on? And then some
lawmakers are furious that the Taliban were invited at all, just days before 9/11, the anniversary of 9/11.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: So, a warm welcome back. Let's go return immediately to the Houses of Parliament, while we update you. It's empty because they're out voting
at the moment on a motion concerning Operation Yellowhammer. This is the preparations that were being made for no-deal Brexit by the U.K.
government, or, rather, the lack of preparations, perhaps, to put it more precisely.
Anyway, the opposition is seeking documents and details about private government discussions on this issue.
GORANI: About what it could do to the economy, what it could cost the country. They feel the government hasn't been forthcoming with that
information. So once we have the result of that vote, we will bring it to you.
In the meantime, we do want to update you, still, on what's happening in the Bahamas. With each passing day, we're learning more about the
devastation left by the most powerful hurricane to ever hit the Bahamas. The administrator of one U.S. aid agency says some areas were so decimated,
they look like they were hit by nuclear bombs.
Patrick Oppmann traveled by boat to some of the remote communities there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PATRICK OPPMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): To get to the places still cut off by Hurricane Dorian, we have to go by boat.
OPPMANN: We've been traveling now for about two hours by boat. It's the only way to get here, this is our destination, the easternmost end of Grand
Bahama Island. We know that it got hit really hard, but not much else. The road is still closed here, and we have not heard how the people here
are doing. We really don't know what we're going to find here.
OPPMANN (voice-over): We head from Freeport to McLean's Town, the last settlement on the eastern tip of Grand Bahama. Dorian filled in the
channel and scattered cars throughout the small harbor. We have to navigate around the submerged vehicles.
OPPMANN: We're going over a car right now. It's a car under water there.
[14:20:00]
OPPMANN (voice-over): McLean's looks like a war zone, and there are fatalities.
EVA THOMAS (ph), HURRICANE SURVIVOR: Everything is --
OPPMANN (voice-over): People like Eva (ph) Thomas' (ph) relatives, who remained and lost their lives.
OPPMANN: You know, you think about the people who stayed behind, what must they have gone through?
THOMAS (ph): Yes. And I think about it because I had a nephew, and three of his kids died in the storm. And I -- my heart is broken, I said. I
couldn't (ph) imagine the terror that they were faced with before they passed.
OPPMANN (voice-over): McLean's has been wiped off the map.
OPPMANN: It's difficult to conceive the force that could cause this kind of damage. It's just otherworldly, to think the winds and the water could
bury so much of this town under broken trees, broken houses, and we really don't know what is underneath all of this rubble. It'll probably take
weeks or longer to dig out and find out what is buried here. All around us is the eerie quiet. It is the sound of a town that has died.
OPPMANN (voice-over): Alex (ph) Carrie (ph) is haunted by the sight of his cousin's dead body
ALEX CARRIE (ph), HURRICANE SURVIVOR: She was (ph) swollen (ph), like, you know, when a dog get hit and swell up, ready to burst? That's how she was,
swollen.
OPPMANN (voice-over): The Bahamian government says the death toll is officially 45. But add up the missing and dead from small towns like
McLean's, and the true loss of life seems higher, much higher.
What little help arrives here comes by boat from other Bahamians. These people brought water from Abaco, also ravaged by the storm.
The rubble tells the story of lives cruelly interrupted: a shoe, a broken teapot, an award from a church.
Mervin (ph) Thomas (ph) tries to recover what's left of his town, a town he no longer recognizes.
MERVIN THOMAS (ph), HURRICANE SURVIVOR: Man, I tell you the truth, I kind of feel lost. Lost since (ph) the place, everything you know, just look,
you know, totally different. You cannot describe it. You never expect nothing like this, man, honestly.
OPPMANN (voice-over): For so many here, all they have left are the things they carry.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: It's just heartbreaking. Patrick joins us now, live from Freeport. He's back in Freeport, the main city on Grand Bahama Island.
And what does the future hold for these people who are so impacted in these remote communities? It's going to take such a long time to rebuild, even
to get basic aid to them.
OPPMANN: If ever, frankly. We were there before the Bahamian government was in this town. And usually, you know, you arrive, the people we see,
they ask for water. one troubling sign that I've seen over the last several days is that people take small sips, they know that bottle of water
may have to last for a while.
I can't tell you how many people we've given our satellite phone to because they have no communications. And that is the call they make to their
family to let them know they're alive. So these are things that are going to stay with all of us for a very long time.
And it seems like we're going from a natural disaster to a response disaster, which is people are now living in conditions that are not fit to
be lived in, with contaminated water, no bathrooms, no electricity and people can only live so long in these conditions without getting sick, and
other people are just looking to leave now, go wherever they can because they feel that the way of life they used to enjoy here has now ended.
GORANI: Patrick Oppmann, thanks very much. Reporting live from Freeport in the Bahamas. Just absolutely tragic, thank you so much.
And, Richard, it's also how remote some of the communities are. Just getting aid, even if the situation weren't as dire as it is, is (ph) going
to be a challenge.
QUEST: When (ph) the Caribbean is perceived to be so easy to get to, say from the United States or even from Europe, if you think about the number
of Caribbean holidays that people go to in the Bahamas, it is one of the most popular because of the cruise (ph) terminals (ph).
GORANI: Yes.
QUEST: And it is something to -- it's going to take a lot -- a serious length of time.
As we move on tonight, Israel's prime minister is unveiling what he says is a previously unknown Iranian nuclear site that was active 16 years ago.
Benjamin Netanyahu says Iran conducted experiments to develop nuclear weapons at the site in Abadeh, and then destroyed the evidence.
Netanyahu's been a fierce critic of the international nuclear deal with Tehran.
[14:25:06]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: This is what I have to say to the tyrants (ph) of Tehran. Israel knows what you are doing, Israel
knows when you are doing it, and Israel knows where you are doing it. We will continue to expose your lies. What we see is a consistent pattern of
Iranian lies, deception and violations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: Now, the prime minister called on the international community to apply more pressure on Iran. CNN's Oren Liebermann's with us from
Jerusalem. When they say "more pressure," what do they mean?
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu wants to see the international community, apart from the United
States, apply sanctions to Iran and against Iran. Obviously, he has the U.S. sanctions, which have been applied over and over again to different
aspects of Iran or Iranian leaders, and now he's calling on Europe to do the same.
In that sense, it's a message he's kept up for the past few weeks, now, all along also hinting that there was more information from the nuclear
archive, which he revealed last May.
And finally, we get our first look into what that new information is. And in this presentation, far less showy, far less dramatic than the one we saw
about a year and a half ago, he revealed what he says is a new site where Iran was doing nuclear experimentation on nuclear weapons, providing little
detail of what that is or when it happened, despite promising that he has that information. A spokesman for the prime minister said there was work
being done there as recently as 2003.
It is worth remembering that with the big presentation last May, the International Atomic Energy Agency said there was still nothing new in the
presentation, and no reason to suspect that Iran had done nuclear work on its nuclear program past 2009. And having spoken to arms control experts,
that appears to still be the case, even with this latest revelation.
And I'll go here to what Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif just tweeted -- and he sent this a short time ago -- saying, the possessor of real nukes
cries wolf on an alleged demolished site in Iran. And then he says, remember his guarantee of positive reverberations in 2002. This time he
assuredly won't be on the sidelines watching. So Zarif, firing back there at Netanyahu.
QUEST: Oren Liebermann, thank you.
GORANI: Still to come tonight, we return to our special Brexit coverage. We'll have the latest action on the final debates and votes before
parliament is suspended. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
QUEST: Welcome back. A top story that plays out behind us at the moment - - any moment, the House of Commons will announce (ph) the votes on the motion seeking documents for government plans for a no-deal Brexit. And
the conversations, WhatsApp messages, you name it, they want the lot related (ph) to suspending parliament.
[14:30:08]
GORANI: Yes. That -- and then there'll be a debate on opposition leader, Jeremy Corbyn's motion, and that is set to begin. He's making -- trying to
make sure that the prime minister complies with the law aiming to prevent a no-deal Brexit.
And let's go to our guests, Labour M.P., Tan Dhesi, joins us now. He's no fan of the prime minister or the Brexit chaos. We also have John Rentoul,
he's the chief political commentator for the Independent.
So, Mr. Dhesi, let's start with you. How did you vote this evening?
TANMANJEET SINGH DHESI, BRITISH LABOUR MP: Good morning, Hala. I voted to ensure that we have exposure of those documents. It is -- we have been
asking for a long, long time about the released of those impact assessments. It is crucial.
QUEST: We just have to go to the moment. Let's just listen to (INAUDIBLE) sir.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BERCOW, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS OF THE UNITED KINGDOM: The ayes of the right, 311, the noes to the left, 322. So the ayes have it.
The ayes have it. Unlock. Order. We now come to the motion in the name of the leader of the opposition to be moved on the standing order, number
24.
I remind the House, although I'm sure colleagues are keenly conscious of every word of it, that the motion is, and I quote, that this House is
considered the well completion -- the welcome completion of all Parliamentary stages of the European Union withdrawal number six bill and
has considered the matter of the importance of the rule of law and ministers obligation to comply with the law, to move the motion. I call
the leader of the opposition, Mr. Jeremy Corbyn.
JEREMY CORBYN, LEADER OF THE LABOUR PARTY: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Speaker and I welcome the decision that the House has just reached. And I
look forward to the government abiding by and accepting that decision that the House has reached --
GORANI: You heard the result of the vote, your reaction.
DHESI: Well, I'm extremely pleased that what we wanted is actually should -- now should be happening. We've been asking for a long, long time for
these impact assessments to be released. We cannot be having a blind Brexit. If the likes of us don't actually know, and especially the key,
whether it's just the lawmakers or even the likes of me, so.
We should know what is going to be the impact, especially of a no-deal Brexit. We also wanted all the documentation to be disclosed in terms of
the various information streams that have been there between -- especially the key adviser to the prime minister, who seems to be calling all the
shots.
But that's good on the -- on one end. What is very, very disappointing is that Parliament is now going to be shut down for more than a month at the
most sensitive, the most crucial time. That is just -- is at a front to democracy. And that is also because
QUEST: You're going to be shut for -- you're going to be shut for three weeks anyway for the party conference season.
DHESI: But that is only three weeks and it is -- and we would have still been sitting the whole of this week and we would have come back earlier as
well.
Whatever happens during that time, is that the prime minister would have been held to account. But what he's actually doing, by doing this, is that
he will not be facing the likes of myself during prime minister's questions. He will not be facing select committees, so that level of
scrutiny will not be there.
GORANI: What do you make of what's going on here? Because if there's another defeat -- apologies for my voice, by the way, for all the viewers
asking me on Twitter. I have somehow managed to lose it on a very important day.
What happens to the prime minister if he, once again, loses in Parliament today? It'll be the fifth defeat for him. He has painted himself into a
corner, hasn't he?
JOHN RENTOUL, CHIEF POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, THE INDEPENDENT: I mean, he's a -- he has only been prime minister for six weeks. And Parliament has only
been sitting for five days of those six weeks, and in those five days, he has lost every vote he's tried to -- tried to put through.
And then as Tan says, you know, Parliament is going to be off for five weeks. So the result of these votes that forces the government to disclose
all these documents is going to have to be enforced while parliament is not sitting.
QUEST: Isn't all of these theatrics today, and neatly ignoring, John, the real reality which is that since the royal assent was given today of the
other -- of the -- of the banned bill, he is now obliged, the prime minister is now obliged to ask for a delay if by October the 19th certain
conditions all met.
RENTOUL: Absolutely. He has to get a deal before October the 19th. Brexit -- a new Brexit deal that he has to get through the House of Commons
or else he has to ask for a delay.
QUEST: There's another real thing. And this is just noise.
RENTOUL: Yes. This is all just outrage and fluff. I mean, I know that. I mean -- but M.P.s are very upset by the tactics the prime minister has used
to try and -- try and get his policy through.
GORANI: So -- what -- I mean, by the way, as you well know is not necessarily inclined to grant the U.K. delay even if the U.K. asked for
one. Europe is just getting a little bit fed up with this.
[14:35:09]
And from the point of view of France and Germany and these big economies, they want to rip this Band-Aid. They want to be able to move on and put
Brexit behind them, because it's a distraction.
DHESI: Well, Hala, the E.U. aren't the only one --
GORANI: So why ask for a delay?
DHESI: The E.U. aren't the only ones that are fed up. We, in terms of the opposition parties, we are fed up, in terms of the chaotic and shambolic
negotiations that have been conducted by the conservative government.
What we need to be doing is to be -- ensuring that we are doing in a very cooperative and a collaborative manner. We have asked for a long time that
it should be close and collaborative relation with the European partners. Instead, the government --
GORANI: But the more you delay the process, the more the uncertainty drags on --
(CROSSTALK)
RENTOUL: But no, listen. Later tonight though, you've got the chance to vote for an earlier election, but you're not going to take it.
QUEST: You don't want an early election, even though the prime minister has said, he's not going to call -- he's not going to change the date. He
said he's not going to change the date in the 15th. He's specifically said that. You don't want an early election.
You didn't vote for Theresa May's withdrawal bill with the (INAUDIBLE) back stoppers. You don't want a no-deal Brexit. I'm not sure I understand what
you want in the timescale available.
DHESI: What we want is to be putting the national interest in front of our own party interest. We want to be in government. But the first thing that
we want to do is --
QUEST: They're going to push you on this. They're going to be pushing.
DHESI: -- to stop no-deal Brexit. That is key --
QUEST: But what are you going to replace it with? The prime minister, the previous prime minister came back with the best deal she could get and you
didn't vote for it.
DHESI: She got the best possible deal that she could get with the red lines that she herself had imposed. We told her, that wasn't -- that
shouldn't be imposed. We wanted a close and collaborative relation. We wanted that customs union.
Instead, she put these imaginary red lines which then constricted her own negotiations. So what we within the Labour Party want, we want to stop
this catastrophic no-deal Brexit. Businesses within (INAUDIBLE) constituency and we -- by the way, have more corporate headquarters in the
whole of the three nations of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland put together.
Those businesses, those -- the unions do not want a no-deal. So once we've stopped that, then what we want is a Labour government and we will be
negotiated, I am sure, a much, much better deal for the country going forward.
GORANI: John, finally to you. I think people outside the U.K. watching this. Only have one question.
QUEST: Only one.
DHESI: Only one.
GORANI: Will there be another referendum? Can this decision be rethought? Is it even a possibility? And if so, what's the pathway to that?
RENTOUL: It's a possibility, but it's a long way off. I mean, the immediate questions is, when is there going to be a general election?
Because the point about this Parliament is that it's not going to vote for anything. We've seen that. It votes -- it votes against everything.
Including tonight, it's going to vote against -- it's going to vote against having an election even though Labour M.P.s say to lay one.
I mean, Labour M.P.s are playing politics of this issue, I think, in a -- in a deplorable way. I mean, they have the chance and so -- to cut through
this issue, put it back to the people and the general election and they refused to take it because they're playing party advantage.
DHESI: Obviously, I would beg to differ. The simple fact is that we know that -- if we went into an election now, as even former prime ministers and
many, many much wiser individuals and myself have pointed out, that you will inevitably during the course of that election, you will lead to a no-
deal Brexit scenario. That is what the de facto --
RENTOUL: Well, only if -- only if Boris Johnson wins it.
DHESI: That is why we've got to stop that. We've got to stop that. Even if the election on the 15th --
QUEST: Gentlemen, fine gentlemen, please as they say.
GORANI: We will have you both back on. Thank you so much Tan Dhesi and John Rentoul, for joining us.
We are in a bubble here, obviously. It's the Westminster bubble. London is a heavily remain part of the United Kingdom. But if you leave the urban
centers, it's usually a very different picture.
Hadas Gold has been speaking with people in another part of the country. She joins us now live. But you are in Liverpool, which did also vote
largely remain. What are people telling you there?
HADAS GOLD, CNN INTERNATIONAL MEDIA AND BUSINESS REPORTER: Well, Hala, you're right. This area voted 58 percent in favor of staying in the
European Union in that 2016 general election. And people here are skeptical of Boris Johnson, not only because this is a Labour stronghold
and he's a conservative prime minister, but also because of his history as an editor of the Spectator Magazine and how they covered, how they
described Liverpool as playing the victim and an editorial about that tragedy at the Hillsborough stadium here.
But I was speaking today with members of a coop (ph) cafe, how they feel about a general election, how they feel, actually, about a local M.P. here,
Luciana Berger, who has switched parties recently. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Generally, people feel like, well, that's who I voted for. And it comes to this question that there's being that much a movement
with politicians and hopping around recently. What do you do? Do you -- do you say there should be an automatic election when someone moves party.
[14:40:03]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And so much Brexit is a good feeling. You think -- you know, your feeling is if you're a bit tribal like traitor and stuff like
this. But it goes -- it goes on all the time and in such fractious times as these.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Enough people are at ridge about like the lies. But it's probably -- and I mean, it's been going on for about three years now.
So (INAUDIBLE) there's a second referendum and see if people's stand by their decision.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think there should be a general election?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I think we need a general election. But I that people are so confused and there's such a turmoil at the moment. A little
bit of heat needs to be taken out of the situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLD: Well, Hala, what's really worrying some residents here is actually, there's a recent report about the increasing levels of children who live in
poverty in Liverpool. And the people that I spoke to today are particularly concerned that all the focus in Westminster on Brexit is
taking focus away from programs and things that they think that people here really need.
As one resident here described it to me, he feels the city is already trailing a fine line with all of their issues and that the Brexit headwinds
are just making it worst. Hala.
GORANI: Hadas, thanks very much.
QUEST: Liverpool, of course, where I was born and brought up. Let's get a view from Brussels. Nina dos Santos is there.
They are doing a very good job in Brussels of following the same rhetoric and rubric. Basically saying it's up to the Brits and they are ready for
any eventuality. But they must be getting concern right now.
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Yes. There's 52 days to go until Brexit is set to take place at this point after the briefings that the
press in France has from France's own foreign minister, Yves Le Drian, suggesting that France, this time, may not play ball and acquits to another
Brexit extension.
Yes, you can believe that people inside the European Commission, the building behind me are watching very eagerly and watching all of these
press conferences.
Remember that although the British prime minister did go and speak with Leo Varadkar, the Irish Taoiseach. Ireland, of course, has to defer to this
building, the European Commission on Brexit. And the E.U. has made it very, very clear that it wants to stand in solidarity with Ireland, if
Boris Johnson had some hopes to try to clean the way Northern Ireland to get some kind of bilateral agreement. Well, the E.U., for the moment,
aren't buying that.
So far, the message both obviously from Dublin and from the E.U. is that the U.K. hasn't yet put forward any concrete proposals that they can
entertain as being legally binding and serious on the subjects of the Irish border.
For the meantime, it seems as though Boris Johnson has yet again trying to put things on the table. They're being there before, so we're talking
about try to use the fact that Ireland sells an awful lot of beef, billions of dollars' worth of beef, Richard, to the U.K., that the idea of having
some kind of agricultural agreement, that could work. Well, the Irish have rejected that it in the past. They're likely to do so if it comes up and
write yet again.
And then also something else that they reportedly discussed was this idea of creating trusted trade statuses. So this is the idea of people going
back and forth from south to north of the border, who already registered a known to trade back and forth with the rest of the U.K. and the republic of
Ireland, which is in the E.U.. Yet again, all of this is being dispelled by E.U. diplomats we've been speaking to over the course of the last few
days.
The real point that Leo Varadkar made in Brussels -- in Dublin that you will likely to hear later on this week in Brussels, Richard, is that, why
should they scrap something legally binding like the backstop for promises that, at this point, still remain vague, Richard?
QUEST: Nina, thank you. Nina is in Brussels and we're have more reaction as we get more votes tonight. As you and I with Hala's voice. How is it
going?
GORANI: Not well. It's faltering. But I'm going to keep it together for the rest of the hour.
QUEST: Absolutely. Still to come. U.S. president Trump has invited the Taliban for peace talks at Camp David then cancelled, in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:45:14]
QUEST: Now, warm welcome back. We're learning new information about the president's -- U.S. president's decision to invite the Taliban to Camp
David for peace talks.
Sources are telling us that Donald Trump overruled his top advisers and the Vice President, Mike pence, who disagreed with the plan. Mr. Trump,
eventually, cancelled those plans to meet the Taliban at the presidential get away.
Lawmakers return to work on Monday after some of them furious that the idea that the president would host the Taliban at Camp David.
Let's go to Washington and bring in our White House reporter, Stephen Collinson. What's going to happen next? Any talk of rescheduling this
summit?
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, the secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, who's been saying that they are still hoping to reschedule
talks between the Afghan government, the Taliban, and the U.S. side.
Now, whether that is going to happen, because now, it seems that both the Taliban and the United States were accusing the other of blowing up these
talks on this long, laborious peace process that's been going on for many months. Whether the conditions can be got back together, so this is,
again, a possibility is unclear.
But I think this is a -- this announcement by the president on Saturday was extraordinary. The idea that he was thinking about bringing the Taliban
who harbored Al-Qaeda before the 9/11 attacks to Camp David, a really symbolic spots for U.S. presidency around the anniversary, the 18th
anniversary of the September 11th attacks in 2001.
That in itself is stunning. And it does raise all sorts of questions about the president's motivation and pulling this to the next stage at such a
public step. And whether that might actually turn out to be counterproductive and heard the conditions for those talks that you
mentioned, Hala.
GORANI: But, also, it's very rare, if indeed Mike Pence disagreed and, reportedly, with the president on this. And John Bolton is very rare to
see daylight between the two men on anything.
COLLINSON: Certainly. Mike Pence, has made the underlying theme of his vice presidency, his over willing loyalty to the president, has started
during the campaign. So it's remarkable to be any discussion or any public show of discontent between the two of them, and for Pence to allow it to be
known that he was contradicting the president, I think shows the depth of consternation among some Republicans in Washington, the imagery of the
Taliban being invited to Camp David around the time of the 9/11 anniversary.
Now, it's interesting, you mentioned John Bolton, we've been picking up signals for weeks that John Bolton has not been happy with the
administration's tactics, sort of strategy in these talks.
Let's remember, these are not talks to end the Afghan war. This looks like agreement, when we get the details that would be between the Taliban and
the United States government. The Taliban will agree to renounce terrorist groups and not to allow Afghanistan to be used as a staging ground from
attack on the west.
That doesn't mean that the Afghan war will end and people who like Bolton are concerned that the agreement will leave the U.S. allies in Afghanistan.
The afghan government, high and dry, and it will not honor the sacrifice of 18 years of American, NATO combat losses in Afghanistan, and it will simply
turn over Afghanistan to the Taliban and we will see what we saw in the years up to 9/11, the Taliban, you know, toppling the government in
Afghanistan and in Kabul.
[14:50:01]
So there is, I think, a great deal of splits within the administration and the foreign policy establishment, particularly the Republican foreign
policy establishment and Washington about this whole idea.
GORANI: Stephen Collinson, thanks very much.
A salvage team has made contact with all four trapped crew members of a cargo ship that capsized off the coast of Georgia on Sunday in America.
The Coast Guard is trying to rescue them. Twenty other crew members were rescued earlier before it caught fire. Very dramatic images there.
And the footage shows some of them being lifted to safety by U.S. Coast Guard helicopter. And the cause of the incident is still under
investigation.
QUEST: If you book to British Airways flight for tonight until tomorrow, then you probably are well aware, but you should be that you ain't going,
at least not on British Airways. The airlines cancelled most of the flying as the result of a strike by pilots who are wanting more pay.
Now, BA's cancelled virtually all of its flights, 200,000 passengers are affected. It's the first pilot strike in British Airways history. As we
continue tonight --
QUEST: Yes. The Irish border may looked serene, but it is a flashpoint. We'll take you there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Now before we go, an update on where things stand in the Brexit showdown. A short time ago, the U.K. Parliament voted to force the
government to release documents for planning for a no-deal divorce. This is all, if you like noise and fury around what's actually taking place.
GORANI: It's a one setback for Mr. Johnson. Another is expected later today. Parliament is likely to reject his bid to call snap elections.
Later at the end of today's session, the prime minister's controversial move to suspend Parliament will take effect.
QUEST: And for time being, the curtain will come down on the Parliament as it gets ready for the next session.
Brexit's thorniest issue remains the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. The British and Irish government administers met
in Dublin today to try to find a solution.
As Nic Robertson reports, as pretty much everybody's always, always said, there's no easy fix.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): From sea over mountains, more than 300 miles along rivers. Slicing through towns,
the border between Northern Ireland and its southern neighbor, the Republic of Ireland cuts the island with a surgeon's precision, and a drunk sense of
direction. It is a historic scar and more recently a symbol of peace. But it's fast becoming the bad lands of Brexit where real lives, a colliding
with bitter E.U., U.K. negotiations.
And one of Northern Ireland's biggest industries, agriculture is collateral damage.
ANDREW LITTLE, DAIRY FARMER: It is a very big uncertainty. The water is going up and (INAUDIBLE) Brexit is completely unknown.
ROBERTSON: Andrew Little is 26, milked his first cow when he was 10. Inherited the tiny farm not far from the border from his father, has grown
to 100 cows, scrapes a living selling milk to south of the border.
A no-deal Brexit and the cross border tariffs that would follow was crushing.
LITTLE: I'd be out in the business just straightaway. I couldn't sustain it.
[14:55:01]
ROBERTSON: You'd be out of business?
LITTLE: Yes, no problem.
ROBERTSON: You have to shut down the farm?
LITTLE: You have to set up. And then who's going to (INAUDIBLE) the cows if everybody's in the same book?
ROBERTSON (on-camera): Right now, the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is invisible. No customs post, no controls, the
road is wide open.
Little more for most people than a line on the map. But after Brexit, all that could change, meaning, the simple act of passing freshly produced
cow's milk from one hand to the other, over the border, could become a whole lot more complicated.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): But even before Brexit happens, it's having an insidious impact.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
ROBERTSON: Crisis at this border capital market are down, 15 percent lower than last year. Much of that over Brexit uncertainty, according to the
Market's owner.
HAMPTON HEWITT, DIRECTOR, MARKETHILL: Farmers don't know when Brexit is going to happen, if it's going to happen. And if it does happen, they
don't know what the effect is going to be.
ROBERTSON: If prices dip more, some here could go under before Brexit even happens.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the price comes down (INAUDIBLE) we're out of business, simple as that.
ROBERTSON: Each days Brexit delay erodes the economy. From here effects seems so near.
HEWITT: We need free movement between North and South.
ROBERTSON: And yet here at the border, the same fix seems so far away, 72 million vehicles crossed each year, and as yet, London and Brussels can't
agree on how to handle even one of them. Nic Robertson, CNN On the border of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Well, that's going to do it for this hour. I'm Hala Gorani. This story has literally left me speechless.
QUEST: A wee dram of something. I was in Scotland today. Wee dram of something for your nerve. Bit of honey on that will soon sort that out.
GORANI: I will give it a shot this evening. But you will be staying on.
QUEST: I'm going on. There's more. Since Parliament is still sitting, we have a lot more. It's after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
