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Hala Gorani Tonight
Prime Minister Boris Johnson And President Donald Trump Hold Joint Press Conference; Interview With British Member Of Parliament, Steve Baker; Nancy Pelosi Speaks On American History Before Caucus Meeting; Trump Tweets He Will Release "Declassified, Unredacted" Transcript Of Ukraine Call; Former Foreign Minister: Ukraine Caught Between U.S. & Russia; U.K. Supreme Court: Parliament Suspension Unlawful; Harry And Meghan On First Stop Of Africa Tour; The Teacher Who Solved Cape Town's Water Crisis. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired September 24, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:16]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN breaking news.
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London, I'm Hala Gorani.
Tonight, two leaders, each caught up in their own scandals, meet on the world stage where U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson, it's (ph) calls for
his resignation after an historic Supreme Court defeat. For U.S. President Donald Trump, it's calls for his impeachment over the growing Ukraine
controversy.
We expect to hear from Democratic House Leader Nancy Pelosi in the coming hours, she's due to make an announcement. And the Democratic presidential
hopeful Joe Biden is also speaking this hour. We'll go to that, live, when it happens.
Two of the most powerful world leaders are facing difficult questions about their futures today. British Prime Minister Boris Johnson met with U.S.
President Donald Trump earlier, at the United Nations. It is the U.N. General Assembly this week.
Mr. Johnson is facing calls to resign after being humiliated back home, while he was abroad. The U.K. Supreme Court delivered a huge defeat to the
prime minister, ruling that his suspension of Parliament was unlawful and now void, as if it never happened.
Meanwhile, Mr. Trump is under greater threat of impeachment today. U.S. democrats will speak soon about their next steps as a growing number of
lawmakers -- 157, was the latest count -- have announced their support for an investigation into an impeachment inquiry.
Earlier at the U.N., both leaders had to face questions about the challenges ahead for them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some of your critics are saying that you should resign because you misled the queen with regard to shutting Parliament down. How
do you respond to that?
BORIS JOHNSON, PRIME MINISTER OF THE UNITED KINGDOM: Well, as I said earlier on -- thank you very much -- as I said earlier on, let's be
absolutely clear. We respect the judiciary in our country, we respect the court. I disagree profoundly --
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That was a very nasty question, from a great American reporter.
JOHNSON: Was that -- I -- was that an American reporter?
TRUMP: That's an American reporter.
JOHNSON: That's a very -- I thought -- I --
TRUMP: He's a good one.
JOHNSON: -- I think he was asking the question, to be fair, that a lot of British reporters would have asked me. ,
TRUMP: You know, we had -- we had, Boris, the first couple of months, we had many -- I think we were 0 for seven with the Supreme Court. And since
then, we won the wall, we won asylum, we won some of the biggest ones. We've had a great streak going.
We've won a lot of decisions. So I'm sure that's going to happen to you.
JOHNSON: Well -- well, we're not counting our chickens and we're full of respect, as I say, for the justices of our Supreme Court.
(LAUGHTER)
QUESTION: Can you explain why aid to Ukraine was stopped?
TRUMP: Because I think that other countries should be paying also. Why is the United States the only one paying to Ukraine? And I've been talking
about this for a long time, not only with respect to Ukraine, but a lot of other countries.
But, frankly, why isn't Germany -- I just met with the chancellor -- why isn't Germany, why isn't France, why aren't these other countries paying
for him? Why are we paying all the time? And nobody's given, I believe, more to Ukraine -- you know, President Obama used to send pillows and
sheets. I sent anti-tank weapons.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: And that's Donald Trump with Boris Johnson, who's expected to speak later. Donald Trump, the U.S. president, there, trying to deflect
away from questions about why aid to Ukraine was frozen a few weeks before a phone call with the new president of Ukraine, amid questions about
whether or not the U.S. president pressured the newly elected president of Ukraine to look into his political rival, Joe Biden.
All these questions, swirling around the president, we will get into that in a moment. Nic Robertson is covering the United Nations General Assembly
for us. And let's talk, first, about Boris Johnson here, because he spoke to business leaders after that U.K. Supreme Court decision came down. He
almost made light of it, and essentially said that nothing has changed as far as he's concerned, he's going to just get on with it, plow ahead and
take the U.K. out of the E.U. by October 31st.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, he did. It's like almost as if it was just a glancing blow, something not to be taken
too seriously. And that was sort of the way that that meeting with President Trump went.
President Trump said, well, I went, you know, seven-nil down to the Supreme Court in the United States, but then I came back and we had some good
results. It was almost as if, well, that's OK, just continue on your way. Which is what Boris Johnson's doing.
You know, I think, obviously, when he gets back to London from here, the mood music around him is going to be much louder and much shriller. But at
least, here, he still has a job to do, he still has to represent the United Kingdom, and he still has his big speech to give today. So perhaps he's
focusing on that.
But very clearly, he said he was going to deliver a no-deal, 31st of October. And he's still saying it.
[14:05:00]
GORANI: Yes. He's still saying it. He's saying, essentially, the U.K. Supreme Court decision makes it harder to get a deal with the E.U., and
there are many, many more hurdles ahead for him in the U.K., when he comes back because he'll be flying back a few hours early, and he will be in
Parliament tomorrow, which will reconvene at 11:30 a.m. local time.
Let's talk about Donald Trump. A new story, coming from him, about why aid was frozen to Ukraine. He says, potentially, that he will release the
transcript of his phone call with the Ukrainian president, but so many questions, Nic, about what he told the Ukrainian leader regarding an
investigation into Joe Biden's son and Joe Biden himself.
ROBERTSON: Yes. You might feel that President Trump is trying to muddy the waters. He used the same lines that he's used when talking about NATO.
You know, the Europeans, they don't pay their contribution to NATO.
So all he was doing, by suspending the United States' payments and support for -- you know, for this aid to Ukraine, for this military aid to Ukraine,
in that context, that -- he wanted to pause it so that the Europeans could step up and do their part. Not fair that the United States should shoulder
all the burden.
Of course, the Europeans have been supporting Ukraine in a number of different ways. In a military capacity, in a training capacity, and many
other ways. But for President Trump, that didn't measure up and that was why he is now saying that that was the reason that he had decided to
withhold the money.
Of course, the context is different and the claims are that he was withholding it because he wanted the president, the new president of
Ukraine, to investigate Joe Biden and his son, who had large business interests inside Ukraine at the time.
It is, now, for the president, you know, perhaps the issue that is going to bring about an impeachment. Of course, Democrats have long been wary of
going down this path for the divisive nature that it could -- you know, that it could bring to the political conversation in this year, running up
to the elections. But, nevertheless, we seem to be on the verge of it right now.
GORANI: Right. Nic Robertson, thanks so much, at the U.N.
We'll get into that Ukraine controversy a little bit later this hour. But first, CNN's Nina dos Santos has the details on a big breaking news day
today, and that is the Supreme Court's critical decision.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They waited outside in the rain, hopeful of victory (ph). Inside the court, they weren't
disappointed.
LADY HALE, PRESIDENT, U.K. SUPREME COURT: This was not a normal prorogation in the run-up to a Queen's Speech.
DOS SANTOS (voice-over): it took just 15 minutes for the U.K.'s highest court to deliver the bombshell ruling against the prime minister.
HALE: The effect on the fundamentals of our democracy was extreme. No justification for taking action with such an extreme effect has been put
before the court.
DOS SANTOS (voice-over): Dismantling Boris Johnson's plan to sideline Parliament --
HALE: The court is bound to conclude, therefore, that the decision to advise her majesty to prorogue Parliament was unlawful.
DOS SANTOS (voice-over): The effect of the decision, if there was any doubt, was made crystal clear.
HALE: Parliament has not been prorogued. This is the unanimous judgment of all 11 justices.
DOS SANTOS (voice-over): Outside court, a celebration.
GINA MILLER, APPELLANT: Today's ruling confirms that we are a nation governed by the rule of law. Laws that everyone, even the prime minister,
is not above.
JOANNA CHERRY, SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY: So there is nothing to stop us, members of Parliament such as myself and my colleagues, from resuming,
immediately, the important job of scrutinizing this minority Tory government as we hurtle towards Brexit.
(APPLAUSE)
DOS SANTOS (voice-over): The ruling was handed down just as the U.K. opposition leader, Jeremy Corbyn, was taking to the stage at his party's
conference.
JEREMY CORBYN, U.K. LABOUR LEADER: It shows that the prime minister has acted wrongly in shutting down Parliament. And I invite Boris Johnson, in
the historic words, "to consider his position."
(APPLAUSE)
DOS SANTOS (voice-over): Boris Johnson is currently in New York for the United Nations General Assembly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prime Minister, are you going to resign?
(CROSSALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- resign, Prime Minister?
DOS SANTOS (voice-over): No apology, and no indication of remorse.
JOHNSON: I strongly disagree with this decision of the Supreme Court. I have the utmost respect for our judiciary. I don't think this was the
right decision.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Order.
DOS SANTOS (voice-over): British lawmakers are now set to return to work on Wednesday.
JOHN BERCOW, SPEAKER, U.K. HOUSE OF COMMONS: I've instructed the house authorities to undertake such steps as are necessary to ensure that the
House of Commons sits tomorrow.
DOS SANTOS (voice-over): The ruling is yet another significant blow to Johnson's young premiership, having already lost six votes in just his
first month in office, and being forced by Parliament to seek a Brexit extension if there's no withdrawal deal by the end of next month.
[14:10:04]
JOHNSON: That's (ph) been, no doubt. There are a lot of people who want to frustrate Brexit. There are a lot of people who basically want to stop
this country coming out of the E.U.
DOS SANTOS (voice-over): His plan to exit the E.U. on October the 31st is being thwarted, it seems, at every stage. Nina dos Santos, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: I want to get some reaction to these stunning developments today. British Conservative Member of Parliament, Steve Baker joins me now.
Thank you, Mr. Baker, for being with us. We had a hard time finding a Tory M.P. today. You're the only one to have said yes to us tonight. Why do
you think that is?
STEVE BAKER, BRITISH CONSERVATIVE MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: Well -- well, I'm delighted to support CNN. We're all hard at work, I (ph) suspect --
suspect most of us have been hard at work in our constituencies, I'm here at Wycombe. Perhaps not all my colleagues are willing to do Skype
interviews.
GORANI: All right. Now, talk to us about your reaction. The Supreme Court says that Boris Johnson's suspension of Parliament was unlawful,
void, and of no effect. Your reaction to that? Because it's a pretty stinging rebuke of the prime minister.
BAKER: Well, we're in extraordinary times, even in the midst of this constitutional crisis. I agree with the prime minister, being willing, of
course, to respect our Supreme Court. But in disagreeing with them, but it's not just me who disagrees with them.
They've overruled a court comprising the Lord Chief Justice, the Master of the Rolls, and President of the Queen's Division of the High Court. These
are three of the most senior judges in the United Kingdom, who have been now overruled by the superior (ph) -- by the Supreme Court, which is
superior in our Constitution, even though the judges that have been overruled are, themselves, more senior --
GORANI: Sure, but --
BAKER: -- so this is quite (ph) extraordinary --
GORANI: -- they're the highest court and the final authority. So the -- you know, that's the system.
BAKER: That is absolutely right, that is the system. The prime minister is quite rightly bound by law. But let's not forget, the reason he's been
losing votes is he inherited a minority government, he then had rebel Conservative M.P.s willing to hand the power to govern over to Jeremy
Corbyn in an alliance of back-bench rebels. That is quite unconstitutional, quite wrong. And so, rightly, he tried to get to a
general election.
Now, under our Fixed-term Parliaments Act, you need a supermajority. That unfortunately means that Jeremy Corbyn and back-bench rebels are holding
our prime minister hostage in Downing Street, when what he needs is a general election to set this right, and to restore some constitutional
norms.
GORANI: But it's not just Jeremy Corbyn, it's also some of the most senior, veteran, Conservative Party members who were chucked out of their
own party -- Kenneth Clarke, one of them, for instance -- who have said, we do not agree with the prime minister's approach to Brexit. We believe a
hard Brexit is detrimental, so detrimental to our country, that we would rather leave the party and stand in opposition to the prime minister.
So, framing it as a Jeremy Corbyn holding the prime minister hostage, isn't exactly accurate, is it?
BAKER: Well, Jeremy Corbyn, of course, has the largest bloc of votes against --
GORANI: Yes.
BAKER: -- the prime minister, so. But of course, you're right, he's got some senior rebel Conservatives. But those rebel Conservatives don't want
to leave the European Union. This is the fundamental problem. During the referendum campaign, I was asked, on the Leave side, will you accept the
result, will you accept the result. And I said yes.
But I realize, now, I should always have said, but will you? But will you accept the result? Because what I think we've seen here, is despite a
legitimate referendum result and a manifest (ph), both the Conservative Party and Labour supporting Leave, and the legislation we've based that
supports leaving, if necessary, with no deal, now that it's become difficult, we find that members of Parliament, who actually faces genuinely
leaving the European Union --
GORANI: But do they -- they're saying --
(CROSSTALK)
GORANI: -- they're saying they don't want to leave without a deal. I think even Remainers now accept -- many of them we've spoken to over the
last year or two, saying, we agree and accept that this country voted to leave. It did not agree to leave without a deal. It was never presented
with a deal because the deal hadn't been negotiated yet.
So please, let's not do something that is so destructive to our country, and leave without an agreement, and let's take a little bit more time to
come to some sort of deal with the E.U. What is wrong with that?
BAKER: It totally undermines the negotiating position. We've got to bring this to an end. And I've published a paper, which the prime minister, in
its first iteration, supported, when it was called "A Better Deal," it's now revised, "A Clean Managed Brexit," it's very similar material. But it
sets out how we get to a relationship with the European Union, of the character they offered us in March, last year.
So even I want to have a sweetened (ph) agreement with the European Union, covering defense and security, trade and other matters. The question is
not whether we have no deal, but how we get to a good deal. And no-deal's not an end state. The problem we've got here is, the people who don't want
to leave the European Union are completely chopping off the prime minister at the knees, in (ph) his negotiating strategy, by not standing firm now.
Because let's not forget, there's plenty of people in the E.U. who don't want us to leave, they want us to stay in. And I'm afraid --
GORANI: All right.
[14:15:00]
BAKER: -- all the time, Parliament looks like it will stop us leaving at all, the prime minister will find it extremely difficult to negotiate.
GORANI: But so far, he's lost six Commons votes in a row, he has suffered a humiliating defeat with the Supreme Court ruling, he has done nothing but
lose and fail at everything he's attempted. Do you believe the prime minister should resign?
BAKER: Absolutely not. But the reason that he's been losing is because he inherited a minority government, and then suffered further extremely
serious rebellions. And that's why he was absolutely right to seek to go to a general election. That is the constitutionally normal thing to do in
the U.K. If a prime minister doesn't command the majority in the House of Commons, he goes to the country and gets one.
And he's -- as I said, he has been held hostage and prevented from doing that. He's a good prime minister. I believe he's going to be a great
prime minister. But right now, he's quite unconstitutionally held hostage by rebels in the opposition.
GORANI: Conservative Member of Parliament Steve Baker. You'll be sitting, once again, tomorrow in the House of Commons at 11:30, I believe, is when
the House of Commons --
(CROSSTALK)
GORANI: -- reconvenes. Thanks so much for joining us, appreciate it.
The U.S. president, Donald Trump, is using the world stage today to denounce globalism once again, and promote a nationalistic view of
international affairs. He addressed the U.N. General Assembly with a carefully scripted, soberly delivered speech. No ad-libbing, very unlike
his normal bombastic style.
He touched on foreign policy challenges from Iran to China to Afghanistan. Mr. Trump also had this message for leaders in the audience, listening.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The truth is plain to see. If you want freedom, take pride in your country. If you want democracy, hold on to your sovereignty. And if you
want peace, love your nation.
Wise leaders always put the good of their own people and their own country, first. The future does not belong to globalists. The future belongs to
patriots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, Mr. Trump was a lot more animated when he spoke off the cuff as he entered the United Nations today. He made a big admission in the
controversy that is fueling Democratic calls in Washington for his impeachment, acknowledging that he did delay military aid to Ukraine before
his phone call with the president, Zelensky.
The House speaker, Nancy Pelosi, is on her way to meeting with top Democrats in Washington in just a few moments. Let's listen to what she
has to say. This is live.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE SPEAKER: -- the Atlantic for recognizing the role that music and the arts play in our lives, and I do believe that
that is a path that can unify us, one way.
The -- you asked about what?
(LAUGHTER)
Let me just say that last Tuesday -- last Tuesday, September 17th, was Constitution Day. It was the anniversary of that day when Benjamin
Franklin came out of Independence Hall and people said, Dr. Franklin, what do we have? A monarchy or a republic?
He said, "A republic, if we can keep it." A republic, if we can keep it. On that very day last week, that Tuesday, erupted this remarkable set of
facts, on Constitution Day. And it was about the I.G., inspector general at the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, saying that there
was a whistleblower complaint. And then we learned that it was going to be blocked from being presented, and that the DNI was not going to allow it to
come forward.
So let me just say this. I have more experience in intelligence than anybody in the Congress. Twenty-five -- at least 25 years, I was a member
of the committee, I was the top Democrat, I was the Adam Schiff. We didn't have the majority, so I was the ranking member. But that made me a member
of the Gang of Four, years ago. And then, ex officio, as leader and as speaker.
So I have been there, for the writing of the laws that (inaudible) whistleblowers and further protections for them along the way. I was there
to write -- be part of writing the bill to establish the office of the Director of National Intelligence, that's only since 2004. We didn't have
it since then.
And that office has its own inspector general. This inspector general was appointed by President Bush -- excuse me, Trump. Important difference --
by President Trump, his own -- an appointee. The inspector generals are greatly respected for their independence, their objectivity and the rest.
[14:20:04]
And by law, when a complaint comes from a whistleblower, the inspector general has 14 days to investigate, and then the director of national
intelligence has seven days to report it to the intelligence committees of the Congress. That is the law, it says "shall." It doesn't say "may,"
"should." It says "shall," and that's a very fraught with meaning word in legislation.
But this administration is blocking the DNI from conveying that to the Congress -- to the intelligence committees. The DNI is, at the present
time, breaking the law at the direction of the administration. It's really unfortunate.
So, to the substance of the -- we don't know, no. I -- we --
JEFFREY GOLDBERG, EDITOR IN CHIEF, THE ATLANTIC: Well, we sort of do. I mean, the president --
PELOSI: Yes.
GOLDBERG: -- I has, in so many words, said that he has --
PELOSI: Yeah.
GOLDBERG: -- raised these questions with the Ukrainians. And he's, in effect, admitted that and he's intervened on the, quote-unquote, "Biden
issue."
PELOSI: Well, again, if -- and he has referenced that. And if that is the case, that the president of the United States would ask a foreign
government to assist him in a political way, that would be wrong.
(LAUGHTER)
GOLDBERG: Would it be impeachable?
PELOSI: Let me just say that everything we've been doing up until now is about preserving that republic that Benjamin Franklin said, republic, if we
can keep it. And he -- and that means it's not a monarchy. And we have a system of checks and balances in our Constitution, three coequal branches
of government to be a check on each other.
And that, that is our republic, is a democracy. It is not a monarchy. The public -- the president has said, Article II says I can do whatever I want.
That is in violation of the spirit of the Constitution.
Now, our founders wanted to provide for, shall we say, some activities that they might not themselves engage in, and they put up guardrails. But they
never could suspect that a president of the United States would jump over those guardrails.
GOLDBERG: I want to widen out the aperture in a minute and talk about this, the whole of this presidency. But let me just stay on this for a
minute. If what we're describing is accurate and if it's not impeachable, if you're not willing to say that it's an impeachable offense, what is
impeachable to you?
PELOSI: Well, let me just say that I'll be making an announcement at 5 o'clock today -- not here, right now -- and that --
GOLDBERG: But you're more than welcome to make it right now.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
PELOSI: It's really sad, to think that our president would perform an impeachable offense. It's hard, you know? It's hard to say we've gotten
to that place. But the -- what would be an impeachable offense would be that which is proven in an investigation.
GOLDBERG: Right, but --
PELOSI: And we have to have an investigation.
GOLDBERG: -- the -- calling for or convening a select committee on an impeachment is the beginning of a process, the beginning of a discovery
process, not the end.
PELOSI: No.
GOLDBERG: So you don't have to have enough proof to convict at the outset of the process. So my question, I guess, is --
PELOSI: But you said, is it an impeachable offense. And that is a verdict.
GOLDBERG: Given -- given what we know and given what the president has said, I mean, the analogy here is crude, but we seem to be in a situation
at the moment, in which Richard Nixon, after the Watergate break-in, said something akin to, yes, I broke into the Watergate. I needed to see what
the DNC knew.
I mean -- I mean, he -- Donald Trump says -- Donald Trump says, out loud, what most people say to themselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: All right. Nancy Pelosi, there, is in Washington. She's taking part in a Q&A with a reporter at The Atlantic Festival. She did say that
she would make an announcement at 5:00 p.m. local time in Washington, which is 10:00 p.m. British time, 11:00 p.m. Central European time. At that
stage, we'll know more, we hope, about the Democratic strategy when it comes to how it plans on tackling this Ukraine controversy.
Speaking of the Ukraine controversy, the U.S. president, Donald Trump, tweeted, just minutes ago, "I am currently at the United Nations
representing our country, but have authorized the release tomorrow of the complete, fully declassified and unredacted transcript of my phone
conversation with President Zelensky of Ukraine."
The big question hovering over this controversy is whether or not Donald Trump, on that July -- during that July 25th phone call with Zelensky,
asked or pressured the leadership of Ukraine to investigate his political rival in exchange for unfreezing military aid, hundreds of millions of
dollars of military aid.
[14:25:15]
TEXT: Donald J. Trump: You will see it was a very friendly and totally appropriate call. No pressure and, unlike Joe Biden and his son, NO quid
pro quo! This is nothing more than a continuation of the Greatest and most Destructive Witch Hunt of all time!
GORANI: The president's story on that, by the way, has changed several times. The latest version why he delayed or froze that aid, was because he
believed European countries weren't paying into the Ukraine aid budget as much as the United States. There were other reasons given before that.
Let's talk about all this with our White House reporter Stephen Collinson, he is in Washington; and our military and diplomatic analyst John Kirby as
well.
Stephen Collinson, reaction first to the president's decision to declassify and -- to release and declassify the unredacted transcript of that phone
call?
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: This is a very major development, Hala. Obviously, the president believes that by doing this
against the advice of some of his top advisors, including the secretary of state Mike Pompeo, that there is sufficient information in the transcript
of this call, to clear him.
It's noticeable, I think, that he says that there was no quid pro quo. Just theorizing here, that if there is no quid pro quo, the Republicans
could argue, therefore, that the president didn't hold up the military aid while trying to force the Ukrainians to investigate Joe Biden.
Democrats would argue that even without that, if the president asked for an investigation into Joe Biden without even mentioning the military aid
package, which was on the table, that's enough for impeachment.
So I think we can surmise that the White House wants this fight to be on the question of whether there was a quid pro quo or not, specifically
unveiled in that call.
This is something that's very out of character for the president. The White House has tried to obstruct all Democratic attempts to pursue
oversight over the administration. I think that shows that the White House realizes that this is a very serious situation, and that the momentum in
the Democratic House, which has been, at least on the part of Nancy Pelosi, as you saw there, against impeachment, has quickly been changing and the
politics of this are really changing fast in Washington.
GORANI: And, John Kirby, I want our viewers to listen to what the U.S. president said when he entered the United Nations building in New York
today, about this Ukraine phone call with President Zelensky. Listen.
(BEGN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: as far as withholding funds, those funds were paid, they were fully paid. But my complaint has always been -- and I'd withhold again, and I'll
continue to withhold until such time as Europe and other nations contribute to Ukraine. Because they're not doing it. It's the United States, we're
putting up the bulk of the money. And I'm asking, why is that?
And I want Europe -- and it's always been this, and everybody knows it, every single reporter knows it, everybody in the administration knows that
what I want -- and I insist on it -- is that Europe has to put up money for Ukraine also.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: John Kirby, correct me if I'm wrong. I believe this is the third version, explanation, the president gives for withholding that aid payment
to Ukraine, the latest one being, well, the Europeans aren't paying as much as the United States. This is a new one, it's the first time I've heard it
today.
I wonder if this is something that will convince anyone who believes there may have been something there with regards to pressuring the Ukrainians to
look into Biden?
JOHN KIRBY, CNN MILITARY AND DIPLOMATIC ANALYST: No, I don't think it will. I don't think anybody who is already deeply concerned about whatever
transaction was had here between Ukraine and President Trump is going to be, you know, dissuaded by his argument, that it really came down to
burden-sharing.
It's also not a completely accurate statement. I mean, E.U. institutions have been contributing. In fact, the last figures I saw, contributing more
than the United States when it came to Ukraine over the last several years, so it's not an accurate telling either. He -- it's a convenient sort of
crutch for him to fall back on because he always talks about burden- sharing, when it comes to particularly military issues.
But I don't think this is going to sway anybody, one way or the other. I think, frankly, whether there was a quid pro quo or not, whether there was
an implied or an explicit discussion of aid or not in this transcript that's going to get released, I think we all need to take a step back and
just consider the implications of -- and he admitted this in that scrum, that you -- part of that scrum that you just showed.
He admitted that he talked to a foreign leader about investigating one of his political opponents here in the United States, right before he went to
go give a speech about the importance of loving your country and sovereignty and selfish national interests.
What he really did was admit to using political self-interest above national interest. And I think that, all by itself, is deeply concerning.
[14:30:00]
GORANI: All right. We are all looking forward to seeing right away that unredacted transcript of that phone call. We have to take a quick break.
Please stay with us, John and Stephen.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Let's return to the critical meetings on Capitol Hill that could determine whether President Donald Trump will face impeachment proceedings.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is now confirming that she will address reporters about two and a half hours now 5:00 p.m. Washington D.C. Time.
Let's bring in Congressional Correspondent, Sunlen Serfaty, for more.
Last count, 157 House Democrats backed an impeachment inquiry. So that number is growing. What do we expect to hear from Nancy Pelosi at 5:00?
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We expect to hear, Hala, likely the next steps of the Democrats will take the House Democrats, will
take in terms of impeachment. There is a slew of meetings today on Capitol Hill, most notably speaker of the house Nancy Pelosi huddling with a six
committee chairs who are investigating Trump them in about 90 minutes.
She will meet with the full House Democratic caucus. All of the members, democratic members of the House, where they will be debating and talking
and sorting through what path, essentially, they are going to go down.
And then emerging from that meeting in about two hours, we now know, according to Speaker Pelosi herself, who just announced at a few minutes
ago, that she will be addressing, essentially, what formal decision she has made, whether they will embrace formally an impeachment inquiry or not.
And certainly notable that the climate up here on Capitol Hill has shifted significantly over the last 24 hours that we've been talking about on air.
Member by member, one more after another House Democrat coming out to support impeachment inquires and that number has grown. It's now 158
Democrats.
But notable within that number, is who is calling for impeachment. People who previously have been hold out, who previously have been very resistant
to endorsing impeachment, moderates, swing states House Democrats, freshmen, a group of them came out with an op-ed last night saying that if
these allegations prove true, in terms of President Trump and Ukraine that it's time to move towards impeachment.
And notably many allies of Speaker Pelosi coming out and embracing impeachment, indicating this is how significant the ground has moved over
the last 24 hours. Hala?
GORANI: All right. Sunlen Serfaty, thanks so much.
We still have White House Reporter, Stephen Collinson and military and diplomatic analyst, John Kirby.
John, releasing the full transcript of the call is not releasing or making us aware of the whistleblower complaint itself. So we don't know what's in
that complaint. We don't know what led that person, that man or woman to file that complaint to be so concerned.
[14:35:08]
It could be that conversation, it could be that conversation and other conversations. It could be that conversation and other conversations and
other elements, other pieces of information so we won't that conversation. Other pieces of information so we don't have the prefecture necessarily.
Yes.
KIRBY: That's exactly right. I mean, it's really important that the whistleblower complaint the context of it, also is made available. If not
to the public, then certainly to the intelligence committees as per law.
And so you're right. That's a very key component here. You also have to remember and I'm not trying to be hyper critical here. But the president,
when he talks, he doesn't talk in necessarily full complete thoughtful sentences.
And so this transcript -- you'll need to also read a little bit between the lines because we don't know how the conversation actually took place, but
it's likely that it's possible that there could be implications sort of left with President Zelensky as a result of the conversation that won't
necessarily be backed up, you know, by actual sentences. It's just because of the way the president speaks.
It's one thing to hear somebody talk on the phone. It's another thing to read the transcript. And so we'll just have to see what it reads like.
GORANI: And I'm just wondering if President Zelensky of Ukraine, and I know how our viewers tell me, you should know this. Does he speak English?
Was the conversation entirely in English? Was there a translator? I'm going to hopefully one of my producers would be able to look that up for
me. But that could make a difference too.
KIRBY: Absolutely.
GORANI: Nancy Pelosi, Gloria Borger, Stephen Collinson, tweeted, Nancy Pelosi said, a quid pro quo. So one thing for another thing and a
transaction is not essential for it to be an impeachable offense. Your reaction.
COLLINSON: Yes, and I think that's what the president is getting at in his co-ed, his tweet, about releasing this transcripts, saying there was no
quid pro quo in the call.
Look, if the president of the United States used his power to try to get a foreign government to investigate a domestic political opponent. I don't
know many constitution scholars who would not see that as a clear abuse of power, whether or not, there was a quid pro quo.
And, of course, the Ukrainians understood that this package, this military aid package from the Pentagon and the State Department, was on the table.
So even if it wasn't specifically offers a quid pro quo, the situation could have made them think it was anyway.
So that's the issue here. This appears to be -- and much more so than in the Russia investigation, whether all sorts of conversations about what the
president's intended in his campaign's contact with Russia, whether he obstructed justice.
This is a much clearer apparent abuse of power. It's something that's more understandable to voters. And I think that's one of the reasons you've
seen the shifting dynamics in Washington. Those moderate Democrats who've won the districts that Donald Trump won in 2016 are starting to come
towards the position of impeachment. They've made their political calculations.
It looks like we're getting to a moment. If this all carries on unfolding, when the price for Democrats of not moving towards impeachment is bigger
than the price of the backlash they may get if they do. And that's always the point in Washington when changes happen politically.
GORANI: And, by the way, President Volodymyr Zelensky does speak fluent English. So I presume that the conversation took place in English, and
we'll see based on the transcript exactly what was said between the two men.
And once again, here, we have a scandal, John Kirby, over shadowing very important diplomatic announcements and with the president and his team, for
instance, are saying about Iran, just as an example where the president, in a very monotone speech says that Iran -- accused Iran of bloodlust but says
there is a path of peace. That all of that being overshadowed by this Ukraine story.
KIRBY: This is one skin or another. I mean, we're all sort of in reactive mode when it comes to this administration.
But you're absolutely right, Hala, there is more than enough content, serious foreign policy content to be discussed at the U.N. General
Assembly.
This week, he did have some significant issues of policy that he talked about in his speech. He talked about international trade and making it a
little bit more bilateral than multi-lateral. He talked about particular with China. He was very tough on China in terms of intellectual property
theft.
He was more muted on Iran. He was more muted on North Korea. He talked about Venezuela and socialism. I mean, there were a lot of issues there.
But you're right. It all got sort of overturned by this particular scandal, and that's unfortunate.
The one thing he didn't talk about, which everybody else in the world is talking about, with respect to the U.N. General Assembly, is climate
change. It never came up in his speech, never even broke the topic, left early from the Climate Action meeting yesterday and just completely as
abdicated any U.S. involvement, much as leadership on what is truly an existential crisis around the world.
[14:40:08]
GORANI: Right. And though I don't think that would surprise many people.
Adam Schiff, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee has just tweeted this, to both of you. "We've been informed by the whistleblower's
counsel that their client would like to speak to our committee and has requested guidance from the acting DNI as to how to do so. We're in touch
with counsel and look forward to the whistleblower's testimony as soon as this week."
What do you make of that, Stephen?
COLLINSON: It's another fast moving, amazing development. What's happened is that the DNI, the top American spy official has been preventing the
whistleblower's account going to Congress. So now, it looks as though the whistleblower himself or herself is asking for the opportunity to testify
to the House Intelligence Committee.
You would think that testimony would probably be in private, given that most of this information, at least, until the president releases this
transcript is classified. I think it could go some way to answering the point you raise about whether there is something more going on in this
whole affair than just the telephone call between President Trump and President Zelensky. That is what the lawmakers will be trying to find out.
Did this just come from a call or is the whistleblower raising the alarm about a much wider patent of behavior which appears to get towards the
question of whether the President and White House are abusing their power by trying to get an investigation open into Joe Biden? So that is very
significant.
The transcript, I think, and this meeting of the whistleblower, if it takes place with the House Intelligence Committee, is going to be the thing that
really dictates whether this goes into the, you know, deeply, politically divisive territory of an impeachment or we can all step back from this and
carry on as we were.
GORANI: How does this, John Kirby, typically take place if a whistleblower is willing to speak to a committee on Capitol Hill? Is that behind closed
doors? Do they preserve that person's anonymity? How does that work?
KIRBY: I suspect that this would definitely be a closed door hearing to protect, not only the identity of the individual, but probably the
sensitive nature of some of the things that this whistleblower has apparently alleged.
I mean, it's obviously in the intelligence committee domain. So, I guess, it's some classified information or secure information is relevant to that.
But you'll notice in that tweet from Schiff he talked about that they are - - in discussions with the acting DNI about how to do this. In other words -- there hasn't been an actual established agreement to go talk to members
of Congress.
They're going to have -- he's going to have to go through -- that whistleblower is going to have to through Mr. Maguire, the current acting
DNI. And if Mr. Maguire is being held back, as Stephen says, from even giving the complaint in paper to the Intelligence Committees, I suspect
that it's going to be rather difficult for him to be given permission by this White House, this administration, to let the whistleblower actually go
to Capitol Hill to testify.
We'll see. I hope I'm wrong about that. But it seems to me like it's a pretty steep hill to climb.
GORANI: Thanks so much, John Kirby and Stephen Collinson.
Stephen, remind us you have a new newsletter, I believe, coming out?
COLLINSON: That's right.
GORANI: Yes, go ahead.
COLLINSON: It's called CNN's Meanwhile in America. Launched yesterday and it's a look at U.S. politics for the global audience, really, of what we do
in your show every weekday really.
So it's -- you can subscribe, go to cnn.com and you'll be able to work out on how to subscribe.
GORANI: All right. Thanks so much.
COLLINSON: Thanks.
GORANI: There is a side to the Trump-Ukraine story that you rarely hear about. How is all of this impact the Ukraine itself? It's a nation
struggling to get out from under Russia's influence. And it's finding itself in -- well, really, the last thing it wants probably and that's a
U.S. political battle.
CNN's Matthew Chance is in Kiev.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pavlo Klimkin was the Ukrainian foreign minister at the time that controversial
phone call between President Trump and his Ukrainian counterpart took place.
Well, we met him earlier. He expressed deep concerns about how sucking Ukraine into the American political battle was weakening his country in its
confrontation with neighboring Russia. Ukraine is, of course, fighting a bitter war against Russian-backed rebels in the east of the country and
engaged in a diplomatic campaign to regain control over Crimea, annexed by Russia in 2014.
But this scandal, Pavlov Klimkin told me was handing Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin a victory. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAVLO KLIMKIN, FORMER UKRAINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Yes, definitely opening a champagne. Yes, definitely. For them, it's the best way to drive in our
unique -- and I really mean unique is not kind of bipartisan support for Ukraine. So now, you know, the Russians should be crazy happy about that.
[14:45:15]
CHANCE: Do you hold the president of the United States, President Trump, responsible for driving in that wedge?
KLIMKIN: No. But --
CHANCE: Well, he's the one who made the request to investigate Joe Biden.
KLIMKIN: But firstly, we still -- we still have to find out its effect.
But we also remember his position during the G7 summit and the idea to get the Russians back into G7, because that would deliver (INAUDIBLE) for me,
you could not make America great again by letting Putin feeling better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHANCE: All right. Well, the former foreign minister was also sharply critical of President Trump's decision to briefly suspend the flow of
military aid to Ukraine earlier this year.
He told me it had taken the Ukrainian government completely by surprise. And it also said in his words, the wrong message at the wrong time to
Putin's Russia.
Matthew Chance. CNN, Kiev.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Still to come tonight, a British Supreme Court ruling is bad news for Boris Johnson. Why it's also bad news for the Queen.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Here in Britain, the U.K. Supreme Court has ruled that Parliament can reconvene. Reports as Prime Minister Boris Johnson was acting
unlawfully when he advised Queen Elizabeth to suspend Parliament.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LADY HALE, PRESIDENT, BRITISH SUPREME COURT: The court is bound to conclude, therefore, that the decision to advise her majesty to prorogue
Parliament was unlawful. Because it had the effect of frustrating or preventing the ability of Parliament to carry out its constitutional
functions without reasonable justification.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, that decision is raising questions about the future of the prime minister and the advice he gave to the Queen.
Our Royal Correspondent, Max Foster, is in Cape Town, South Africa where he's been covering the royal tour of the Duke and Duchess of Sussex.
How can this impact the Queen all of this ruling from the Supreme Court and all the troubles that Boris Johnson finds himself in?
MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, she's part of the constitution and the fact that she's head of state, but she has defined her monarchy as
being politically independent. So other monarchies, you take Belgium or Denmark, for example, they do sometimes get involved in politics.
If there's no deadlock, they will come in and try to broker some sort of deal. The queen doesn't even see herself in a role in that either. And
she goes back to her 21st birthday speech when she made from here in Cape Town where she committed to be independent. She also committed to the
people.
[14:50:05]
But imagine the situation. You got opposition leaders, you've got the liberal Democrats, you've got Labour, you've got the Scottish National
Party calling for Boris Johnson to resign. He doesn't resign. They somehow get together in Parliament in the coming days and say he has to
resign. If he doesn't, we're going to call in the Queen to use a power she still does have which is to sack the prime minister.
So we often hear her talking about how one of her key roles is to appoint a prime minister. She could also sack a prime minister. Imagine if
Parliament goes to the Queen and says, you have to do that, when she, judicially, only acts on the advice of her prime minister.
You literally got a situation where the advice of her prime minister will be up against the will of Parliament and that puts her in a very difficult
position indeed.
That president where she only acts on the advice of the prime minister would be tested and she may have to make a call and she won't be happy
about that.
GORANI: She's certainly won't be. And you are in South Africa because you are covering the trip of Harry and Meghan, the Duke and Duchess of Sussex.
Tell us about their first few days. I believe you spoke to them.
CHANCE: Yes. A rip-roaring -- a rip-roaring tour. They're both throwing themselves into all of the causes. There's been visits around town today.
They're going down extremely well. Partly, because she talked about being a woman of color yesterday, which a lot of people here thought they could
connect. There's been a lot made out in here.
This morning as well going into a project promoting mental health which was one of their key causes, getting kids out of the townships and to the beach
to learn to surf. Something they care deeply about. In that so, well, they spoke to these national media.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGHAN MARKLE, DUCHESS OF SUSSEX: You know, I think what's so amazing about being here today is you can see there are so much good happening in
the world and there's so much positivity and all this diversity and inclusivity. I think if the focus is on that, which is like it's so great
that you're are here today just highlights that, yes, there's a lot of attention on things that could be a bit troubling in the world, but this is
actually what's making a difference and what matters.
PRINCE HARRY, DUKE OF SUSSEX: Exactly (INAUDIBLE) I think what these -- what these kids are doing, and actually, the coaches are the main thing,
because they've had this quite unique experience. It's not as unique as you'd think because so many of these communities have been through a very
similar traumatic experience, but they've now come into a place like this, into this charity, to be able to learning each other's experiences, but to
be able to help the younger generation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: All right. We'll have more from Max soon. Thanks very much, Max.
We'll be right back.
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GORANI: You may recall the water crisis in South Africa when Cape Town almost ran out of water completely. Well, one of the ways they survived
was simple and smart as we learn in the latest edition of "Innovate Africa." Here's Robyn Curnow.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBYN CURNOW, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In 2017, in the midst of a severe drought, Cape Town made an astonishing announcement.
The city of four million was only months away from a collapse of its public water system.
THINUS BOOYSEN, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, STELLENBOSCH UNIVERSITY: Supplies were dwindling and it just wasn't raining. And there was a real threat
that the city would run out of water.
[14:55:01]
CURNOW: Day Zero as it became known, as Thinus Booysen to come up with an innovative solution.
A professor in Stellenbosch University. He was already working with students on a device to help manage electricity used for water heating.
BOOYSEN: So when the draws came, we strip that down to just become a very simple water meter, which were called Count Dropula and we use this Count
Dropula at this course to raise awareness, to change behavior, and to also improve the maintenance at this course.
CURNOW: Soon, local businesses got involved sponsoring schools to help pay for the cost of installation and maintenance.
SEAN CAROLISSEN, HEADMASTER, NOOITGEDACHT PRIMARY SCHOOL: When we started the problem, we switched off all the taps, check that they weren't leaking,
leaking taps were fixed immediately. And then we discovered but there's still water being used.
So what we did was we traced the problem and found it was an under water leak and we replaced the pipes.
BOOYSEN: The schools had a massive impacts and what we found was that many of the schools, we're using in the order of 20, 30, 40 kilo liters per day,
and a lot of that was waste.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But every day, they give us a report of the flow of water in there.
CURNOW: Armed with information, principals were able to empower their students to become part of the solution.
MIKE MORAVANA, HEADMASTER, HECTOR PETERSON SECONDARY SCHOOL: For me, the effect that there was a reporting system on daily basis that could give you
an account of your water usage. It made us as the school as teachers, and I hope parents also much more use friendly water than we were before.
BOOYSEN: To date, we saved more than 500 million liters of water at the 350 odd schools.
CURNOW: But Booysen's success goes beyond, saving water by keeping kids engaged and rewarding schools for their conservation. His technology is
also changing behaviors.
CAROLISSEN: It was a real surprise that we managed to save the most water and it was such a simple thing. Through saving water, which otherwise, it
would have just flowed away.
MORAVANA: It shows that if people keep on thinking, critically, there's always solutions to every problem that we have.
CURNOW: Robyn Curnow, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: I'm Hala Gorani. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next.
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END
