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Hala Gorani Tonight
No Clear Trump Response To Impeachment Inquiry; Ukraine Issues Public Statement; One Year Since Jamal Khashoggi Murder; Rep. Tim Ryan (D- OH) Is Being Interviewed About Donald Trump Impeachment Inquiry; Swing State Voters Weigh In On Impeachment Inquiry; Media's Role As Impeachment Debate Heats Up; Paris Court Fines French MeToo Founder For Defamation; France Bid Farewell To Former President Chirac. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired September 30, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:21]
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London, I'm Hala Gorani.
Tonight, Donald Trump on the offensive. But is the White House feeling the pressure now that a majority of Americans polled say they are in favor of
this impeachment inquiry? We'll explore that question.
Also, under pressure, allegations about Boris Johnson's roaming hands and misuse of power have overshadowed his own party's conference.
And, later, a setback for the French face of the #MeToo movement after she was found guilty of defaming the man she accused of sexual harassment.
From suggesting political opponents be arrested to warning about a possible civil war, Donald Trump is on the attack, lashing out today as he faces the
biggest threat to his presidency so far. The U.S. president is furious over an impeachment inquiry that began in earnest this week, calling a
whistleblower complaint fake, when we know parts of it have already been corroborated.
Mr. Trump is demanding to meet this whistleblower despite laws protecting the anonymous informant, leading the whistleblower's attorneys to express,
quote, "serious concerns for their client's safety."
Mr. Trump is also making threatening remarks about the head of the House committee that is leading the investigation. He is suggesting that Adam
Schiff be arrested and charged with treason.
But perhaps the most stunning thing we heard from the president of the United States in the last 24 hours is a suggestion that the country could
descend into civil war if he's removed from office. Quite a week -- quite a way, I should say, to begin the week. And I think I can predict quite a
week ahead.
Let's bring in White House reporter Sarah Westwood. First, let's talk about Trump lashing out at the whistleblower, at Adam Schiff and others in
another tweetstorm in the last 24 hours.
SARAH WESTWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: That's right, Hala. President Trump, casting about for a way to defend himself against this rapidly
escalating impeachment inquiry. As you mentioned, going after House Intelligence Committee chairman Adam Schiff, suggesting baselessly that he
should be arrested for treason.
Also, elevating comments from a supporter, suggesting that if House Democrats successfully removed him from office, then there could be a civil
war-like fracture in this country, and also claiming that he has the right to confront the whistleblower, whom he described as his accuser, also
wanting to know who in the White House communicated with that whistleblower. The whistleblower, in his or her complaint, cited
conversations that he or she had had with various White House officials.
But all of this is coming as it becomes increasingly clear that the White House does not have any kind of overarching strategy to defend President
Trump against impeachment. Sources have told CNN that, privately, President Trump has dismissed the idea of bringing on former aides to form
an impeachment response team. He believes he does not need to hire more lawyers to help him with his. His current team of lawyers is starting to
focus on handling the impeachment issue.
But some inside the White House do believe that the past six days have been a lost opportunity for Trump because the White House has not really been
out in front, trying to shape public perception around the impeachment inquiry -- Hala.
GORANI: And as far as the Democrats, even among those who support the impeachment inquiry, there is a nagging concern that this could backfire
against the Democratic Party. Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the House, was asked that very question. Here's how she responded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EVAN SMITH, CEO, TEXAS TRIBUNE: Do you have any anxiety at all about any of the stuff we're talking about or anything that we're not talking about,
impacting your ability to hold control of the House in 2020?
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Doesn't matter.
SMITH: It doesn't matter?
PELOSI: Our first responsibility is to protect and defend the Constitution. And we (ph) mean (ph) to (ph).
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: And she took her time. There were those Democrats on the Hill who wished she'd acted sooner, that some time was wasted. What is the White
House's strategy? You mentioned, perhaps, that there are those who are saying that they haven't come -- they are not confronting this as directly
as they could at this stage.
WESTWOOD: Exactly. And there was even some frustration with acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney because the White House released that transcript of
the president's now-infamous phone call with Ukrainian President Zelensky. But there was no strategy, really, to frame that as particularly
advantageous to President Trump.
And you are right that Democrats, their reluctance to pursue the impeachment proceedings was based in part over the fear that this could
backfire on President Trump.
But many of the people around the president right now believe that Trump does not really appreciate just how perilous his situation is, and that is
why he has sort of gone on this wild series of attacks, but not done as much planning for actual formal responses to the impeachment.
[14:05:00]
He is expected to be briefed this week, Hala, by his aides, on some of the options for impeachment response, so we could see more of a strategy emerge
after that meeting.
GORANI: All right. Sarah Westwood, thanks very much.
And, by the way, we will be exploring opinion polls in the United States with, now, a majority of Americans supporting the idea of an impeachment
inquiry into the U.S. president, 55 percent, there you have it. We will breaking down those important numbers for you a little bit later in the
program.
Now, this all started with a whistleblower concern, he or she said, about a phone call the president had with the president of Ukraine. And there is
growing alarm in Ukraine, at the prospect of being trapped in the middle of what is, after all, a U.S. political crisis. This year alone, U.S.
military aid to the country has amounted to nearly $400 million.
While officials in Kiev are not saying much, CNN's Chief International Correspondent, Clarissa Ward tracked down two men who are mentioned in this
whistleblower complaint, and she joins me now, live from Kiev with more. What did they tell you, Clarissa?
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's interesting, Hala. You couldn't find two men who view this situation more
differently, who have more wildly opposed political ideas. But at the same time, they very clearly agreed on one thing, which is that President
Trump's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, was ardently and actively trying to agitate, to open some kind of an investigation here in Ukraine, into
Donald Trump's opponents. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WARD (voice-over): Ukraine is struggling with the fallout of America's political crisis. Officials here aren't talking, but we tracked down two
of those mentioned in the whistleblower's complaint, each with a very different perspective.
Former diplomat Andreii Telizhenko says President Trump's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani approached him in May for a meeting. Telizhenko is known for
his claims that Democrats colluded with Ukrainian officials against Trump in 2016. He says the two men spent six hours discussing a range of issues.
ANDREII TELIZHENKO, POLITICAL CONSULTANT: My insights on what's happening in the U.S.-Ukrainian relationship, and the DNC-Korean (ph) collusions was
also mentioned. Mr. Giuliani also asked me about Vice President Biden, what my thought was, what my insights were on him.
WARD: So you had the sense that this was a priority for Mr. Giuliani?
TELIZHENKO: Yes, that's the -- he doesn't hide it, it's his work, that's what he was hired to do, to represent the president of the United States
and his personal interests. And --
WARD: By trying to further conspiracy theories about the president's political opponents?
TELIZHENKO: No. There is no conspiracy theories there (ph), I'll just -- we need to investigate this properly.
WARD (voice-over): Sergeii Leschenko disagrees. He was an advisor to Ukrainian President Zelensky's campaign, and says Giuliani began applying
pressure to investigate the Bidens shortly after the election.
SERGEII LESCHENKO, FORMER CAMPAIGN AIDE TO PRESIDENT ZELENSKY: I knew it for sure. Because for Giuliani, it was only interesting Ukraine to get
this information about Biden and to use this information in the U.S.
WARD: You think that he was focused on it for the president, or --
LESCHENKO: For sure. Not for his private purposes. We know who is Giuliani. We know what is his role, we know that he is acting not just a
private person, but on behalf of your -- of his client.
WARD: So this wasn't a secret?
LESCHENKO: It was a clear fact.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WARD: Now, Hala, of course, Rudy Giuliani has remained defiant about his activities in Ukraine. He denies any wrongdoing even though both previous
and elements within the current prosecutor's office have said that so far, there is no indication that either Biden broke any Ukrainian law -- Hala.
GORANI: And the president of Ukraine, the new president, Zelensky, was asked if he's taking orders, if he's under any kind of pressure to open an
investigation into Biden and his son. This is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE (through translator): We are open, we are ready to investigate, but I have nothing to do with that. Our
independent law enforcement agencies are ready to investigate any sort of proceedings if the law was broken.
I'll be honest with you, we are not doing anything by command. I can say it again: We are an independent country, we are not following any commands
and we have only one command, to serve Ukraine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: So he's saying they're an independent country, but they're ready to open an investigation if laws were broken. What should we make of that?
WARD: I think we should make of that, Hala, that he's trying to have his cake and eat it too. Or, to be more specific, he doesn't want to upset
either side in what is seen here as a U.S. domestic political battle.
Ukraine relies too heavily on the largesse of the U.S., as you mentioned in the introduction to my story, $400 million U.S. dollars this year alone.
They cannot get involved in the U.S.'s domestic internal politics. And so as a result, you see themselves sort of almost twisting themselves into
pretzels in order to try to walk this very fine line, where they can be seen to both appease but not indulge either side -- Hala.
[14:10:25]
GORANI: All right. Clarissa Ward, live in Kiev.
Let's talk more about the impeachment inquiry, now, with a former U.S. federal prosecutor. Joseph Moreno is joining me from Washington with more.
The president is tweeting out -- and this is from a -- comes from a long tweetstorm over the last 48 hours -- demanding to meet his accuser, as if
somehow this was a criminal case. Obviously, this can't happen in the United States. This person -- man or woman -- is a whistleblower, and his
or her identity is protected.
JOSEPH MORENO, FORMER U.S. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: That's right, Hala. I mean, the president is sort of confusing two key legal differences here.
If you would go to a criminal trial, you do have the right to face your accuser, which basically means that if someone is testifying against you,
you have the right to hear that person testify in open court, and you have the right to cross-examine them.
We are nowhere near that stage of this proceeding at this point. At this point, the person -- man or woman -- is simply a whistleblower. The person
has, seemingly in good faith, come forward and said, "I am a government employee. I know certain things and I'm raising these concerns." That's
it.
And the identity, the confidentiality of that whistleblower is absolutely important. Nobody -- not the president, not the president's lawyers, not
even the person's boss should know what he or she is saying. It only matters that the person brings the information to the people in Congress so
that they then can decide what, if anything, to do with it.
GORANI: All right. Now, the -- Adam Schiff, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, is saying there is an agreement in principle on
securing this whistleblower testimony. In practice, how would that work while maintaining this person's anonymity?
MORENO: Difficult, Hala. So one way would be to do by written questions and answers, right? Which is difficult, though, to get -- you know,
obviously, you can't get live testimony on a piece of paper. That would be one way.
It sounds like, though, what they're going for is closed-hearing testimony. Basically, that only a few select members of Congress and their staff
members will hear from this person behind closed doors. It will not be on television, there will not be a public transcript, there will be no public
witnesses.
Now, obviously, the problem with that is, it could be leaked, right? The person's identity could be leaked --
GORANI: Sure.
MORENO: -- there could be steps that could be taken to further protect that person's identity. But at the end of the day, we're putting a lot of
trust into the hands of members of Congress, that they're going to respect the confidentiality of the whistleblower and the process.
GORANI: As a former federal prosecutor, do you think this case is a turning point? I mean, we're hearing from more and more former advisors,
former Trump supporters, one of them, Tom Bossert, a former Donald Trump Homeland Security advisor, saying that he's deeply concerned by this
Ukraine story. I want our viewers to hear what he had to say over the weekend, and then get back to you, Joseph.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM BOSSERT, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISOR: Yeah, I'm deeply disturbed by it as well. And this entire mess has me frustrated, George. It is a
bad day and a bad week for this president and for this country, if he is asking for political dirt on an opponent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: What do you make of the fact that we're hearing more and more voices come out and say, this is a little -- this is really troubling me
now?
MORENO: Hala, I'm always the first person to say, let's be judicious and let's look at the evidence and then weigh it. But at the same time, we
have a lot of the evidence here. I mean, we know what's in the transcript. We know what transpired between President Trump and President Zelensky. So
at the end of the day, it looks bad because it is bad.
And I think that there is a speed in which these things are moving forward, and I think there's a reaction from the White House that we did not see in
the two-year-long Mueller investigation, as things sort of trickled out. We're getting information, we have a sense of what happened. We absolutely
need to get more and get comfortable with all the facts.
But it looks serious because it is serious, and I think the White House is reacting because, deep down, it knows that.
GORANI: And in this whistleblower complaint, there's obviously a lot of classified information that we won't have access to, that people looking
into -- whether it's the Intelligence Committee or the intelligence community, would have access to. That's going to complete the picture, and
that's important as well, I imagine.
MORENO: You're right. And it's an extra added complexity in this whole situation, that not only are we trying to respect the person's identity,
but we need to respect and protect the classified nature of any kind of information that's really sensitive.
So Congress has a lot of work to do here. This is not a simple criminal proceeding, where we just kind of run-of-the-mill, go through information
here. There's a lot of equities (ph), a lot of moving pieces. It's up to Congress to do this right and by the book, and basically get the
information that's appropriate to the American people, so that we can judge for ourselves exactly what happened and how serious it is.
[14:15:08]
GORANI: And finally, when would this take place? I mean, realistically, if this impeachment inquiry leads to an actual vote in the House, when --
what is the expectation there?
Joseph, can you hear me?
All right, we lost -- we lost Joseph. That's OK, we were almost at the end, there, of the interview. Joseph Moreno, thanks for joining us.
Former federal prosecutor, with more there on this impeachment inquiry that started in earnest last week.
Still to come tonight, Saudi Arabia's crown prince speaks about the murder of journalist Jama Khashoggi here, why he says he takes some
responsibility. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Boris Johnson is facing a crucial week -- another one, possibly one of his last as the British prime minister, even -- as personal and
political controversy could have serious repercussions for him.
The prime minister is denying accusations of misconduct when serving as mayor of London. Authorities are looking into allegations that Johnson did
not disclose a close relationship with this American woman, a businesswoman who you see on your screen, there on the right. "The Sunday Times" reports
that her tech company received tens of thousands of pounds in public funding while Mr. Johnson was mayor of London.
The prime minister insists there was no conflict of interest to declare, so there was no wrongdoing.
Meanwhile, the controversy is casting a big shadow on day two of the Conservative Party conference in Manchester. Nina dos Santos is there and
joins me, live. Is this pretty much the talk of the conference, all these controversies hovering over Boris Johnson?
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the salacious stuff really isn't the talk of the conference. In fact, the focus of the conference, this
time, Hala, is really Brexit because, of course, it's the big economic time bomb that is ticking in the background, with the next deadline just around
the corner at the end of the next month.
Ahead of that, the real focus of the Conservative Party, with its current leadership, who -- many of them were very enthusiastic Leavers during the
2016 referendum is, as you can see behind me from the banners, Get Brexit Done, to them, focus on big spending initiatives, which we've been hearing
from the stage over the last couple of days. Extra spending on hospitals, extra spending on roads, on education, so on and so forth.
We also heard, today, the Chancellor of the Exchequer lay out financial plans as to how they could afford that. But in the background as you said,
yes, rumbling on continues to be this story about Boris Johnson's relationship with a U.S. tech entrepreneur who may have accompanied him on
important trade visits when she, as a U.S. entrepreneur, could otherwise have been replaced by a British entrepreneur.
[14:20:00]
And there were questions about whether or not his office had given her -- when he was mayor of London, by the way -- had given her not just access to
big trade missions, but also grants and funding.
And for this reason, the subsequent revelations that we've seen over two weeks in Sunday newspapers, have prompted the police watchdog to
potentially think about launching an investigation. We don't yet know whether an investigation is going to be launched, but they are considering
launching one.
Well, in response to all of this, Boris Johnson has been heckled, arriving here for two days in a row on the fringes of the Conservative Party
conference. He's also been asked by journalists, whether there was anything to declare. He said, no, it's all been above board.
And then in the meantime, there's also been a journalist who's accused him of squeezing her thigh 20 years ago, when he was her boss at a publication.
Again, he has said, no, I don't want to talk about that. It didn't happen, I want to talk about this, getting Brexit done -- Hala.
GORANI: All right. Well, we -- understandably, he doesn't want to talk about all that other stuff. Thanks very much. Nina is in Manchester at
the Conservative Party conference.
Saudi Arabia's crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman, says that as a Saudi leader, he takes full responsibility for the 2018 murder of Saudi
journalist Jamal Khashoggi, but he continues to deny any personal involvement, that he ordered this murder.
The statement came in an interview with CBS' "60 Minutes." It's now been a year since Khashoggi's murder, almost. CNN's Nic Robertson has our story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): One year since Jamal Khashoggi's brutal murder, his body is still missing, his
killers yet to be convicted. Justice for this internationally respected Saudi journalist, who'd become increasingly critical of his leaders, yet to
be delivered.
Now, on the eve of the anniversary of his killing inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, October 2nd last year, Saudi Arabia's ambitious
crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman, is answering allegations he had a role in the killing.
MOHAMMAD BIN SALMAN, CROWN PRINCE OF SAUDI ARABIA (through translator): Absolutely not. This was a heinous crime. But I take full responsibility,
as a leader in Saudi Arabia.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): His interview with CBS' "60 Minutes," is the first time he has publicly accepted any responsibility.
BIN SALMAN: This was a mistake, and I must take all actions to avoid such a thing in the future.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Yet these actions remain shrouded in secrecy. The trial of the Saudi officials involved, many of them captured in CCTV
footage in Turkey before and after the killing, began in January and remains behind closed doors.
The U.N. Special Rapporteur on the murder is one of the only international officials publicly shedding light on the case. She listened to secret
Turkish recordings of Khashoggi's killings.
AGNES CALLAMARD, U.N. SPECIAL RAPPORTEUR: There is nothing in the recording that indicates an accident.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Her 98-page report was condemned by Saudi officials, yet provides the most detailed insight so far of what happened.
His killers, planning on cutting him up with a bone saw and putting on headphones while they did it.
CALLAMARD: The matter-of-fact way with which the protagonists are discussing the dismemberment of Mr. Khashoggi, in the conversation itself,
they express concerns, but not over what they are about to do, but over their own fate (ph) and protection.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Turkish CCTV footage, recorded outside the consulate before and after the killing, show what appears to be another
part of the cover-up. Bags, believed to contain Khashoggi's body parts, removed and taken to the nearby consul-general's residence.
When Turkish investigators did get access to the consulate, more than a week after Khashoggi's killing, they discovered chemicals had been used to
clean up the scene.
ROBERTSON: A year on from his death, Khashoggi's murder remains almost as much a mystery as the day that it happened. And justice, equally elusive.
Nic Robertson, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Let's get more on this developing story and the headlines out of Saudi Arabia. Let's bring in Fawaz Gerges, professor of international
relations at the London School of Economics. Thanks for joining us.
So let's talk, first, about this interview that MBS, Mohammad bin Salman, gave to "60 Minutes." He said, yes, I have to take some responsibility
because, after all, it was done on my watch. But I didn't order this killing.
FAWAZ GERGES, PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: Absolutely. He took responsibility, but he denied any personal
involvement in it. I mean, I think this is part of his coming out, is trying to really basically reach out to the global world, to the
international community, by saying, yes, of course, it's my responsibility. I am the leader of Saudi Arabia, I did not order the killing.
[14:25:09]
What really -- what's fascinating about the interview, he was speaking as the king of Saudi Arabia --
GORANI: Yes.
GERGES: -- he was not really speaking as the crown prince. And this is really what I have taken out of the interview. That is, he is basically
the commander in chief of Saudi Arabia.
GORANI: But this is not what -- and we've all seen the intelligence community conclusions, this is not what they've concluded. They've
concluded that orders were given, perhaps from higher up than was ever admitted, and there was the advisor, Saud al Qahtani, who was dismissed
last year. But where is he, even, today?
GERGES: Hala, we do not know what has happened to Saud al Qahtani. Is he under house arrest? Is he alive? Is he dead? What we need to understand,
for your audience, the decision-making in Saudi Arabia is very secretive. And this really does more harm than good to Saudi Arabia, because there is
lack of transparency, lack of information.
So no one knows, no one -- and I mean it -- no one knows exactly what has happened to Saud al Qahtani. And this does not really help the crown
prince, to make the case for the international community, that --
GORANI: There's a big question mark, still, over that --
(CROSSTALK)
GERGES: Absolutely.
GORANI: Because he was mentioned in a lot of the --
GERGES: Yes, of course, yes.
GORANI: -- intelligence reports about the murder, that he was --
GERGES: Yes.
GORANI: -- in touch with, you know, various officials while this killing was taking place.
The crown prince was asked about Loujain al-Hathloul, who was one of the most prominent female Saudi human rights activists, whose family say she
was and is being tortured, and is being detained. This is his response to that question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIN SALMAN (through translator): This decision is not up to me, it's up to the public prosecutor and it's an independent public prosecutor.
NORAH O'CONNELL, CBS CORRESPONDENT, 60 MINUTES: Her family says that she has been tortured in prison. Is that right?
BIN SALMAN (through translator): If this is correct, it is very heinous. Islam forbids torture. The Saudi laws forbid torture. Human conscience
forbids torture. And I will personally follow up on this matter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: I mean, he's kind of acting like this is the first time he's ever heard of her. She obviously is one of the best-known activists, Saudi
Activists, out there --
GERGES: No, I don't know what to make of the crown prince's assertion that he had not known about the plight (ph) of almost a dozen activists who have
been basically in prison. I mean, in particular, the situation, their plight, has received a great deal of publicity by (INAUDIBLE) and by CNN.
You asked me, how do I explain this. I think the answer itself, analytically speaking, shows the tensions between the ultraconservative
religious establishment and the royal family. What the crown prince, my understanding, his answer, is trying to walk a fine line between the
judicial system that's controlled by the religious establishment, and the calls for transparency.
Let me venture an opinion --
GORANI: OK.
GERGES: -- basically, speculate. You're going to see many of the activists released in the next few hours and next few days, as a result of
this particular interview. That might cause a --
GORANI: But he has the power to release, or does he not?
GERGES: Naturally. Of course.
GORANI: And so there's not -- there's not several centers of power here, it's --
GERGES: But -- but what we need to understand, that there is --
GORANI: Not like Iran, for instance.
GERGES: Hala, what we need to understand about Saudi Arabia is, there is an alliance between the royal family, the crown prince --
GORANI: Yes.
GERGES: -- and the king, and the religious establishment. And this particular fine balance, this is what the answer reveals. It cannot really
push the religious establishment too far, because of the question of stability and the consolidation of the ruling family.
GORANI: Yes. Let me ask you about the shooting death of the king's bodyguard in Jeddah. Curious story here.
GERGES: He is --
GORANI: What happened?
GERGES: -- he is called the guardian of the kings. He walked with King Abdullah, and now King Salman, he's a general, Abdul-Aziz Al-Faghm (ph).
There are questions surrounding the killing of Abdul-Aziz. I mean, he's a general. The story we have -- again, the lack of transparency, we don't
have much information -- but the reality is, I mean, this tells you a great deal about -- I mean, the Saudi government should probably, you know, give
more information about basically why. What's the -- what's the dispute between the two friends that led to the killing of several people?
So, yes.
GORANI: Another mystery, another unanswered question there, coming out of Saudi Arabia. Fawaz, as always, thanks so much for joining us. We really
appreciate having you on the program.
[14:29:32]
Still to come tonight, swing voters are looking at Trump. What do they think about the impeachment inquiry? And just how big of an impact will it
have on them?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:30:03]
GORANI: It's been almost a week since the Democratic Party leaders opened an official inquiry into impeaching President Trump. It accuses him of
using the White House to influence the 2020 presidential elections.
Mr. Trump says the whole thing is made up. But crucially, what are voters think? Miguel Marquez has that story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Quakertown borough, PA voted for the president in 2016. Today, some of his supporters
aren't so sure.
TODD CHIARADIA, WAVERING TRUMP VOTER: I think he's crossed the line. But that's the way he is.
MARQUEZ: Todd Chiaradia voted for Obama twice. Liked Bernie Sanders in 2016. Then voted for Donald Trump over Hillary Clinton.
MARQUEZ (on-camera): Did you reluctantly voted for the president in 2016 and in 2020 it's an open question for you.
CHIARADIA: Only because I didn't see another -- a better opportunity there.
MARQUEZ (voice-over): A chef at Quakertown's Karlton Cafe, Chiaradia says with impeachment, Democrats may be going a step too far.
MARQUEZ (on camera): Do you feel like it's overreaching right now?
CHIARADA: I think so. I think they are. I think they're -- they want him out, I'm pretty sure.
MARQUEZ (voice-over): Third generation shoe store owner, Ralph Morey, became a Democrat in 2008 so he could vote for Barack Obama in the primary.
He voted for Obama again in 2012. In 2016, he voted for Donald Trump. In 2020 he says, no way.
MARQUEZ (on camera): What is it about the president that --
RALPH MOREY, FORMER TRUMP SUPPORTER: The way he manages himself. And then that reflects on what our country's all about. And our country is better
than what the way we're being perceived as.
MARQUEZ (voice-over): But he thinks impeachment will further divide an already a hyper-partisan country.
MOREY: I think it is ugly now. And I think we should focus on not being ugly.
MARQUEZ (voice-over): Hardcore Trump supporter, Rockey Bixel, says Democrats will only harm themselves in going after the president.
ROCKY BIXEL, TRUMP SUPPORTER: In this town, there's a lot of people who are turning because they say it's just stupid.
MARQUEZ: Quakertown is part of Bucks County in the vote-rich Philly suburbs. It narrowly supported Clinton in 2016. In new hope, a Democratic
stronghold, many voters here says impeachment about time.
CASSIDY SMITH, DEMOCRATIC VOTER: It does show people that a president can't do these things and just get away with it.
ANNELI MARTIN, DEMOCRATIC VOTER: I think that Democrats need to show some spine. Though I think that it's a good way of showing power and what's
right and doing everything by the law.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Miguel Marquez reporting there from Pennsylvania, which is a swing state.
House Democrats are moving quickly with this impeachment inquiry and they're planning to issue a flurry of subpoenas and depositions this week.
So where do Democratic presidential candidates stand on the matter?
Congressman Tim Ryan joins me now.
So yours is a swing state, Ohio. Are you sensing a shift among voters who may have supported Donald Trump in 2016 this time around, specifically
because of this Ukraine story?
[14:35:04]
REP. TIM RYAN (D-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes. I think it was like the straw that broke the camel's back. I mean, I think a lot of people
voted for him. They thought he was going to be able to take on the establishment. He was more of an independent minded person. He campaigned
on raising taxes on the rich and expanding healthcare for the poor and middle class and rebuilding the country, so those are some pretty bread and
butter populous issues that he's not acted on any of them, and in some instances, he's reversed it.
But all along, while he's not doing anything, he's also misbehaving in so many different ways. They don't like the way he tweets. They don't like
the race baiting. They don't like the constant conflict.
And then, you know, to see what he did with Ukraine and trying to dig up dirt on Joe Biden was a bridge too far and I think he's going to start
losing some support.
GORANI: But there is some concern, even among Democrats who support the inquiry, that this could backfire on your party ultimately. That he'll be
seen as a martyr that he'll use this to really, really energize his base in 2020. Do you share that concern on any level?
RYAN: I don't know which way it's going to turn. I really don't. I don't think anybody does. It's definitely going to motivate its base. There's
no question about that. He's already raising money off of this and everything else.
But we need to stand on principle. And I think what most Americans want, independent voters especially, is somebody who's going the stand on
principle even if it may not cut your way politically. And I think that's --
GORANI: But it's still risky though -- it's still risky because your primary objective has to be, I imagine, you know, winning back the White
House next year. There is inherent risk here in this strategy, isn't there?
RYAN: Well, there's inherent risk in every strategy. And I think, you know, this is obviously risky, but not doing something is also risky to
have millions of Americans primarily Democrats, but some of the independents that I saw that you interviewed in the previous segment, watch
Donald Trump do something so egregious and then we're going to sit on our hands because we're afraid of the way the politics may play out.
I think that's equally as dangerous, and quite frankly on a personal level, looking back on my career and thinking we didn't do anything when this
happened or looking our kids in the eyes when they get old enough and saying, we didn't do anything because it was politically risky, I don't
think that's a good way to go either.
GORANI: What's your strategy, your personal strategy? Because you have obvious front-runners in this race. You know, at what point do you say to
yourself, OK, I've got to throw my support behind one of the candidates leading in the polls. At what point do you make that decision?
RYAN: Well, you know, before this election, we would wait until Iowa, and, New Hampshire, and Nevada, and South Carolina before anybody would say
this. But the DNC has orchestrated this a very unnatural, a process here with limiting who gets on the debate stage. I'm in this until the end,
until the early state primaries because I'm continuing to make the argument that I am the person who can beat Donald Trump and that's the number one
issue.
I'm from Ohio. I got a blue collar district. I come from a blue collar family. I won, did really well in my district and Donald Trump won three
of my counties. So if you're looking for someone who can go to Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania and win -- so -- because we're probably
not going to remove him on impeachment, he won't get convicted in the Senate, we better start looking for a candidate who can actually do this
and, you know, I'm the guy who can do it and I'm going to stay and we're getting support --
GORANI: But you need to motivate your donor -- but that's what -- that was -- and especially you need to motivate your donors to keep this going
though. Any concern there?
RYAN: Well, we've got enough money to keep going and I think you know, when president -- or Vice President Biden slipped in the polls in the last
week or two, we have a number of people calling us, wanting to help us raise money around the country, because they're afraid that we may not be
able to win this race.
GORANI: Representative Ryan, in fact, speaking of Donald Trump, he's at the White House right now speaking on camera. I want our viewers to listen
in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I made a call, the call was perfect. When the whistleblower reported it, he made it sound terrible.
And then you have Adam Schiff who, even worse, made up my words, which I think is just a horrible -- I've never even seen anything like that. Adam
Schiff, Representative, Congressman, made up what I said, he actually took words and made it up.
The reason is when he saw my call to the president of Ukraine, it was so good that he couldn't quote from it because there was nothing done wrong,
it was perfect. So Adam Schiff decided, I can't let this happen, so let me make up. Did you hear of this one, Gene (ph)? Did you hear anything like
this?
So Adam Schiff made up a phony call and read it to Congress and he read it to the people of the United States. And it's a disgrace. This whole thing
is a disgrace. There's been tremendous corruption, and we're seeking it. It's called drain the swamp. There's been corruption on the other side,
there's been corruption like you've never seen.
[14:40:13]
Now, the new President of Ukraine ran on the basis of no corruption -- that's how he got elected. And I believe that he really means it. But
there was a lot of corruption having to do with the 2016 election against us, and we want to get to the bottom of it, and it's very important that we
do. Thank you very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: I believe we still have, Representative Tim Ryan, on the line, Democrat from Ohio.
The president there saying Adam Schiff, the chairman of the house Intelligence Committee, made up a phony call. There's corruption in your
party. What's your reaction?
RYAN: Adam Schiff is a friend of mine. I've known him for a long time. I served in Congress with him for a long time. He has more integrity in his
little finger than Donald Trump has in his entire body. What you just saw there was live and in person, a display of delusion of a person who has
never, once in his life, been held accountable for anything he's ever done from filing bankruptcies to making sure that workers and small business
people never got paid by him. He's a racketeer.
And what you just saw there was a display of delusion and him trying to manipulate this situation. He asked the president of Ukraine to help him
find dirt on an American politician that happens to be his competitor in this race. That is beyond any ethical standard that we have in the United
States, especially the president of the United States.
It is a high crime and misdemeanor. I believe it is, in some ways, treasonous for what he has done. And he can talk all he wants and try to
spin all he wants, but he is going to get impeached by the House and those Republicans in the Senate that are going to circle the wagons around him
will forever have to hold that they went with Donald Trump as opposed to with protecting the integrity of the United States of America.
GORANI: I just want to -- I just want to finish by getting your reaction to this new CBS-YouGov poll, which is quite interesting because it suggests
that 55 percent of Americans, obviously, among Republicans, it's nowhere near that number.
But that 55 percent of Americans support the impeachment inquiry into President Trump. Not impeachment, but the inquiry itself. The interesting
figure I found was about a third, 30 percent of Republicans, are open to getting more facts about this Ukraine story and this seems to me like a bit
of a shift in the numbers. What's your reaction to this specific set of figures?
RYAN: That's a significant shift. That's the first I've heard of it. I know it was -- the last I saw, it was inching up into the high 40s of
supporting it. But now at 55 percent, I think what you're starting to see is, yes, he's going to energize his base.
But if you're an independent voter and you're just looking at the facts, and there's just long history of Trump and his misbehaviors with how he
handled the Mueller report and trying to obstruct justice with Jeff Sessions and he got away with that, and yet he went and did this anyway, if
you're an independent, you're a libertarian, you're a moderate Republican, you're going to shift on that.
And I think what the 30 percent in the Republicans that you saw, probably the open minded Republicans who say, yes, let's hear a little bit more, but
boy, this doesn't sound good.
GORANI: Thank you very much, Tim Ryan, who is running for president as a Democrat. Democrat from Ohio joining us live. We appreciate your time on
CNN International. Seen all over the world here and it's a story that's not just of interest to people inside the U.S., but of course, globally as
well.
How big of a roll does the media play in all of this? The choice Americans make and where to get their news is increasingly affecting decisions at the
ballot.
CNN's Oliver Darcy is in New York. So Oliver, let's talk a little bit about Fox News specifically, but conservative commentators as well on the
radio and elsewhere.
But what was interesting is, over the weekend, even some Fox News hosts were holding some Trump supporters to account in a way that was slightly
different to what we've seen in the past.
OLIVER DARCY, CNN SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER: Right, you had a Chris Wallace on "Fox News Sunday" interview Stephen Miller, and he really did, like we
said, hold him to account on the facts. He repeatedly asked certain questions. Didn't get answers, but did hold him to the fire. That is a
bit of an anomaly though, I will say, on Fox. There's a few anchors who are telling the truth, delivering the news straight.
But largely, the network is in defend mode for Donald Trump. They're defending his conduct. They're peddling misinformation, they're peddling
lies to their audience to defend the president, and that's happening on a routine basis, you know.
[14:45:12]
We talked about the Fox News straight news division and that's really only few hours a week, where largely you're hearing people like Sean Hannity,
Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham, do anything they can to come to the defense of the president.
That said, you know, Stephen Miller wasn't the only one, the only administration official on network television, over the weekend, defending
the president. You had Jim Jordan, who is a congressman who was on CNN. And you had on ABC, you had Rudy Giuliani. We have -- we have some of that
video, but let's play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISER: The president of the United States is the whistleblower. And this individual is a saboteur.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): This seems to me like a political setup. It's all hearsay.
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): He has no firsthand knowledge and second, second, he has a political bias. That should tell us something about this guy who
came forward with this claim.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DARCY: So we see there, with the president's allies doing anything they can to defend the president. I think what's really going to be key here,
and you talk about Fox News, but it's this right wing media machine, as a cluster of websites that are loyal to the president. They are talk radio
and it's going to be interesting to see whether they stick to this pattern of misinformation and peddling lies to their audience to defend the
president or whether that wall breaks.
And I think if you see it break, and you see them start to part ways with the president, you might see Senate Republicans be a little more
comfortable as well turning on the president. That remains to be seen.
GORANI: Oliver Darcy, thanks so much for joining us.
Much more ahead. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Now, to our Innovate Africa series where we're meeting a Nigerian seamstress on a mission to better her industry. Here is Robyn Curnow.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PATIENCE TORLOWEI, FASHION DESIGNER: Quality is something that I realized was lacking in production in the garment industry, and that was my number
one focus. And that is why I think in 10 years for us to get this far.
ROBYN CURNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Why do you manufacture at home in Africa? Why do you not do this perhaps in Paris or outsource as many people do to
even China?
TORLOWEI: Africa is also a continent and Africans are heroes. And why shouldn't Africans understand the knowledge of underwear making? They are
training my people in Nigeria.
I had to go beyond just training them to make what I wanted to do with me. It was also trying to instill in them that they have to learn to be
patient, they have to learn to really nurture and know that good things don't come easy. And in the long run, they will be the pioneers in
underwear making in Africa.
[14:50:04]
CURNOW: So how did you move from being a purveyor of lingerie to having a permanent exhibition in one of the most iconic museums in the world?
TORLOWEI: I made a dress for a client who was attending some seminar in Abuja, the state capital. (INAUDIBLE). Her dress caught the attention of
these people from America.
The museum was celebrating its 50th anniversary, so I was one of eight, seven other designers selected randomly from different -- several African
countries to participate for this "Earth Matters" fashion show.
And I produced this dress, which I call Esther. Esther is named after my mother who died around the same time. So I was quite full of emotions.
The title gave me a chance to talk about the damage and destruction happening in Africa. I opted to donate it because to me, it adds more
value that way. It was something about education, of the destruction really happening in Africa.
CURNOW: Do you see your work as inspiring other African women designers?
TORLOWEI: I think that I've been a strong inspiration to a lot of people, both men and women, because I returned to Africa as the last phase of my
life because I believe lived my life in three phases. I'm on phase three, is to give back, is to actually transfer the knowledge of everything I
have. I just want to leave a legacy that would outlive me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: More after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Squeal on your pig was the rallying cry of many French women at the height of the Me Too movement. But the woman who coined that phrase
was taken to court over it and she lost.
Here is Saskya Vandoorne.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SASKYA VANDOORNE, CNN FIELD PRODUCER (voice-over): She was one of Time's People of the Year.
Called a silence breaker for founding France's Me Too movement. But now, Sandra Muller, who paved the way for many women to speak out is being not
only silenced but fined 15,000 euros for defaming a man who admitted making salacious remarks to her.
SANDRA MULLER, FOUNDER, ME TOO MOVEMENT: The message is very clear is don't move, don't speak. We don't want to hear your voice.
VANDOORNE: Muller started the BalanceTonPorc -- squeal on your pig, hashtag in 2017 by recounting her experiences years before with television
producer, Eric Brion, on Twitter.
She tweeted that Brion told her at a party, "You have big breasts. You are my type of woman. I will make you orgasm all night."
Brion recognized Muller's version of events, and said it was a one-off mistake, but it did not constitute sexual harassment.
ERIC BRION, FORMER TV EXECUTIVE: I tried to seduce her. Yes, my words were really bad. I know that, I admit that. And when I went back home
after sleeping, I send her a message to her to apologize. But I never harassed her.
VANDOORNE: The court in Paris agreed with Brion. Ruling that Muller lack a sufficient factual basis to accuse him of sexual harassment.
Nevertheless, Brion said the tweets ruined his life.
BRION: My trial was the social networks. In a -- in two, three, four days, I was condemned. I was a bad guy. I was a guy who made sexual
harassment at work.
[14:55:12]
VANDOORNE: Muller says she took to Twitter instead of going to the police. Seven years after the event, she feared they wouldn't take her seriously.
MULLER: It was prevent the other woman. It's, hey, be careful of this man.
VANDOORNE: The verdict was met with anger by feminists such as Marie Laguerre, who was punched outside a Paris cafe after calling out, her pig,
in real-time.
MARIE LAGUERRE, ASSAULT VICTIM: I think it's going to have a bad consequences on women who already have a hard time speaking out. We know
that it's hard to press charges. Sometimes, we don't have the strength to do it, sometimes we're not well received, and sometimes the only thing that
you have left is speaking out. And apparently, we cannot even do that anymore.
VANDOORNE (on-camera): Sexual harassment and assault complaints in France rose 30 percent in the month after the squeal on your pig hashtag was
launched, according to France's interior ministry.
But the ruling in Sandra Muller's case ignited a debate on naming and shaming men for what some consider flirting. In fact, many people here say
that the trial tested the boundaries between sexual harassment, freedom of expression, and the heavy pickup approach.
Muller believes it's a cultural problem.
MULLER: I think in France, it's much more like Latin lover of country, it's a country of love, you know, it's a country of seduction, is the
country of la, la, la, patriarchal country, you know. And they don't want to be disturbed in their position -- men, many are men, woman -- a woman.
VANDOORNE: Muller says she will appeal the decision. Meanwhile, she fears it may prevent other women from coming forward.
Saskya Vandoorne, CNN, Paris.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Foreign dignitaries, thousands of others and all of France, it seems like gathered to say a final goodbye to former president, Jacques
Chirac.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: A series of private and national ceremonies, including a church service, a military tribute as well were held today and it was declared a
national day of mourning.
There were dozens of world leaders in attendance including the Russian President, Vladimir Putin. The former U.S. president, Bill Clinton. The
former afghan president, Hamid Karzai, and the Lebanese prime minister, Saad Hariri.
A private funeral took place at the Montparnasse Cemetery in the south of the capital.
And Chirac, it's the end of an era. He served as president from '95 to 2007, but his political career spanned four decades. He was the mayor of
Paris, he was prime minister. It really is the end of a chapter for France.
He died Thursday at the age of 86.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: I'm Hala Gorani. Thank you for watching tonight. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
