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Hala Gorani Tonight
Americans Abandon Kurds In Syria; Second Whistleblower Comes Forward; Wife Of American Diplomat Kills British Boy In Auto Accident; Iraq's Army Admits To "Excessive Force" Against Protesters; Zelensky Facing Backlash For Peace With Russia Policies; Drone Video Shows Bound Detainees In Western China; China Cut Ties With Houston Rockets Over G.M.'s Hong Kong Tweet; Extinction Rebellion Demands Government Action. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired October 07, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:58]
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London, I'm Hala Gorani.
Tonight, Donald Trump shocks the world by withdrawing American troops from Syria, paving the way for a Turkish invasion and hanging Kurdish allies out
to dry.
Then, casting a wider net. U.S. House Democrats issue new subpoenas in the Trump impeachment inquiry.
And, later, while climate protests sweep the world after the hottest September ever recorded, hundreds of arrests here in London.
We begin with fierce blowback to a stunning policy reversal that leaves critical U.S. allies in the fight against ISIS, now very vulnerable to
attacks themselves. Apologies. Here we go.
President Donald Trump has approved the withdrawal of U.S. troops from northern Syria after a phone call with Turkey's president. Those troops,
already on the move, effectively clearing the way for a long-threatened Turkish incursion to clear Kurdish fighters from the border region.
The Kurds, assisted by the U.S., risked their lives battling ISIS on the front lines for years. But Turkey considers them terrorists and warns that
a military operation is imminent.
Mr. Trump, facing criticism on multiple fronts, tweeted this, quote, "If Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to
be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the economy of Turkey," adding, I've done it before.
Let's get right to our reporters for more. We're joined by Ryan Browne at the Pentagon and Ben Wedeman in Beirut, Lebanon.
Ben, first, to you and reaction on the ground. I imagine these Kurdish and SDF fighters were stunned this morning.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they're stunned. Let's keep in mind that according to the predominantly Kurdish Syrian
Democratic Forces, they lost more than 11,000 men and women, fighting against ISIS, oftentimes alongside -- fighting alongside with the
Americans.
And suddenly, to find out that the Americans are essentially going to abandon them is a bit of a shock. And I'll give you just one story. Our
producer, Kareem Khadder, contacted somebody who lives near the Turkish border in northern Syria, who has worked with us in the past.
And he said, can you work with us now?
He said, no, I can't because I need to get my family out of here as quickly as possible, away from the border.
What we've already seen, according to the SDF, is that they are going to be -- they have already begun to reduce the level of security they maintain
around prisons and camps where battle-hardened ISIS fighters, including 1,000 foreign fighters, are currently being held, and their families as
well, creating a vacuum into which the SDF and many others are worried that ISIS will rush. So the Kurds have two things to worry about at this point:
a resurgence of ISIS and this impending Turkish invasion.
Keep in mind, Hala, that President Erdogan, when he was at the U.N., held up a map indicating that Turkish forces would create a safe zone or a
buffer zone, 30 kilometers -- that's almost 19 miles -- inside of northern Syria, which actually means that they would be occupying some of the major
Kurdish towns and cities in that part of the country. So one can understand why there is this level of alarm at the moment -- Hala.
GORANI: All right. And Ryan Browne at the Pentagon, how is Donald Trump justifying this stunning decision, that even some of his most ardent
supporters -- Lindsey Graham being one of them -- called, this morning, short-sighted?
[14:05:01]
RYAN BROWNE, CNN PENTAGON REPORTER: Well, the president is kind of tying this into some of his campaign and political rhetoric that he's embraced in
the past, which is this desire to get the United States Military out of all these Middle East conflicts.
And he says, basically, he's highlighted the fact that the U.S. military has successfully destroyed the territorial caliphate of ISIS, and that the
U.S. was not going to take responsibility for the 2,000-plus foreign fighters and some 8,000 local prisoners being held by the SDF, saying the
Europeans need to step up, and proposing that Turkey takes responsibility for those prisoners.
Not clear how that's going to happen, that the prisons are very far from the Turkish border currently controlled by the Syrian Democratic Forces,
not clear that Turkey could take over, and why the SDF would give them control of those prisons. A lot of complications there.
President, though, kind of ironing over those in his tweets, saying that while the Kurds had fought with the U.S., they had received a lot of money
and equipment and that were therefore not necessarily needed to be protected by the U.S. any more, while also threatening Turkey with economic
sanctions if they do something that he is not particularly supportive of, not making it clear what exactly that is.
TEXT: Donald J. Trump: As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched
wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the economy of Turkey (I've done before!) They must, with Europe and
others, watch over the captured ISIS fighters and families.
The U.S. has done far more than anyone could have ever expected, including the capture of 100 percent of the ISIS caliphate. It is time now, for
others in the region, some of great wealth, to protect their own territory. THE USA IS GREAT!
BROWNE: So a lot of confusion as to what exactly the U.S. expects from Turkey, threatening it with those tweets -- Hala.
GORANI: All right. And, Ben, what happens on the ground if these SDF forces come under attack? Where will they find support? How will they
defend themselves?
WEDEMAN: It's very difficult to understand where -- who will come to their aid. And certainly, I've seen, myself, firsthand, they don't have a lot in
the way of armor. They -- obviously, they have no air force, they depended completely on the coalition for that. They have very little to defend
themselves against one of the biggest armies in the world, that of Turkey.
And beyond sort of the military aspect, there are around -- more than 700,000 people living within this proposed --
GORANI: Right.
WEDEMAN: -- buffer zone or safe zone that Turkey is putting forward. And the International Rescue Committee says that they worry Turkish incursion
could result in at least 300,000 new refugees In that part of Syria. Of course, in a country that's already seen millions of people made homeless -
- Hala.
GORANI: Yes. Ben Wedeman and Ryan Browne, thanks very much.
My next guest calls the U.S. withdrawal from the Syrian-Turkish border a catastrophe, and says Donald Trump is actually granting ISIS the gift of
rebirth. Charles Lister is a senior fellow and director of the Countering Terrorism and Extremism Program at the Middle East Institute.
Charles, why is this a catastrophe? What happens when Turkey invades that part of Syria?
CHARLES LISTER, SENIOR FELLOW, MIDDLE EAST INSTITUTE: Well, I think at the outset, we have to acknowledge that we've spent the past five years, a
large amount of money, 11,000 Kurdish and Arab lives, and a huge amount of sort of energy and thinking, to roll back ISIS' territorial caliphate.
We're at the most critical moment right now, whereby we can turn a tactical victory into a strategic one. So to consider a departure in any nature,
any environment right now, is short-sighted and wrong-footed.
But to consider it in such a way as a Turkish cross-border incursion becomes an inevitable eventuality, that almost inevitably sets off an
ethnic and potentially a sectarian conflict in northern and eastern Syria. It's going to provide groups like ISIS every opportunity they could wish
for to stage a comeback, and the comeback that we've all feared all along.
GORANI: But why is that? I mean, because the Kurdish fighters will be occupied -- otherwise occupied. And, by the way, reminding our viewers,
they are guarding 60, 70,000 ISIS prisoners in some parts of Syria. Even if it's not in the zone that Turkey invades, you know, they will have to
kind of turn their attention elsewhere and it could mean that these ISIS fighters, who've been trying to regroup in some of these camps and prisons,
will have the opportunity to do so. So this will hurt the United States, ultimately.
LISTER: Oh, a hundred percent. The prisoners are a huge issue. There's also over 100,000 IDPs, most of whom were family members of ISIS over the
last five years, who are also in camps, who stand to be largely insecured, not to mention the foreign fighters, which is of course a huge issue.
But ISIS is -- I mean, the plain -- the clear fact here is, ISIS is already staging a comeback in parts of Syria, under which we're in control. So to
consider departing now, in a circumstance that will create chaos and instability, creates the conditions whereby groups like ISIS thrive.
Just look at Iraq over the last five years, look at Syria over the last five years. Chaos is exactly what allowed ISIS to grow in the first place.
[14:10:07]
GORANI: Yes.
LISTER: Their philosophy is based on an idea of managing chaos and savagery. And so --
GORANI: Yes.
LISTER: -- an ethnic conflict that will result from a Turkish incursion is a dream scenario. It's everything ISIS could wish for at exactly this
point in time.
GORANI: And who are the other -- not winners, but beneficiaries of this situation? Because I'm sure Assad is quite happy about this development,
Iran potentially, Russia as well.
LISTER: That's exactly it. I mean, the immediate winners are Turkey, at least in the short term, as far as their domestic politics are concerned
and their immediate national security interests. Medium term is ISIS.
And then long term, yes, the fact of the matter is if chaos reigns in northern -- northeastern and eastern Syria over the next months and
potentially years, that will provide the opportunity for Damascus, the Assad regime and its big two backers, Russia and Iran, to step in and, at
some point, offer a deal, either or both to Turkey and the SDF, to the Kurds, which inevitably will mean some kind of -- what they call a
restoration of sovereignty, of sovereign control over that 30 percent of Syria.
So, in a way, just as people criticized Trump for cutting aid to the vetted (ph) opposition a couple years ago, this is just as much of a strategic
victory for the regime alliance, in that it weakens their --
GORANI: So what -- yeah -- sorry.
LISTER: -- most significant competitor or rival.
GORANI: But then it is remarkable, to frame it in that way, right? That the United States is doing precisely what would benefit its enemies, and
precisely what would go against its own self-interest with regards to terrorism and ISIS.
LISTER: Yes. I mean, it speaks volumes, frankly, not to get too political about it, but it speaks volumes about Trump's inability to manage an
effective foreign policy. You can look at the Gulf, you can look at North Korea, you can look at a whole variety of issues around the world.
And just as the congressionally mandated Syria Study Group released their report just a short while ago, there was a line in there, which said, every
second that the U.S. has gained leverage in Syria, sometime soon thereafter it's given it away. And this is probably the biggest --
GORANI: So why is it doing that?
LISTER: -- example of that.
GORANI: why would he (ph) be (ph) doing that?
LISTER: Why? Because I -- for domestic political reasons. I think Donald Trump's primary focus here is getting re-elected in 2020, there's obviously
an impeachment inquiry at the moment, so it's a great time to distract attention.
But Donald Trump got elected on not being involved in wars, particularly in the Middle East. He made that clear in --
GORANI: But, Charles, I would --
LISTER: -- his recent tweets.
GORANI: -- I mean, I -- when you're in the U.S., nobody's really talking about soldiers in Syria. I don't think the average American knows that
there are about a thousand soldiers in Syria. I mean, it seems to me, if this were a political argument that he's making, to be re-elected, it would
be a strange one at this stage, right?
Because even in that zone that the U.S. is withdrawing from to allow this Turkish invasion, we're talking a few hundred, I think, at most, right?
LISTER: Yes. Exactly. And to those of us who are well-informed on this issue, that is the exactly legitimate argument to make. I've written it,
I've said it many times, as long -- as well as many others have.
But the fact of the matter is, if Donald Trump gets up on an electoral stage and says, I've withdrawn from Syria, I've got -- I've stopped our
involvement in another forever war, he will win votes.
GORANI: Right.
LISTER: For many Americans, it doesn't matter whether we have hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands. The fact of the matter is, we're involved
in a war in Syria. And now I and you and many others will say this is a catastrophe. This is an extraordinarily short-sighted policy decision.
But for Donald Trump, it's just one more thing to tick off on his list, to his voting base in America. And, frankly speaking, we may not see the most
damaging consequences of this for several more years, and at which point, getting re-elected won't matter anymore.
GORANI: Sure.
LISTER: I do, unfortunately, think it's as simple as that for our president.
GORANI: Charles Lister, thanks so much. Pleasure having you on the program on this important day.
LISTER: Thank you.
GORANI: And in the United States, speaking of Donald Trump, new information is coming out in the impeachment inquiry into the president.
In less than 24 hours, three House committees will hear testimony from this man, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union. On Friday, lawmakers will
hear from the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine who was removed from her position by President Trump.
That's after a second whistleblower has surfaced with details about the U.S. president's July phone call with his Ukrainian counterpart. A lot to
get through. Suzanne Malveaux explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A second whistleblower coming forward, intensifying the accusations President Trump
pressured Ukraine to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden and his son.
Their attorney, telling CNN this whistleblower works in the intelligence community, has firsthand knowledge supporting claims made in the first
whistleblower's complaint, and has already been interviewed by the intelligence community inspector general.
[14:15:09]
REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): People around the president, professionals who are in the Oval Office, who are in the Situation Room, are watching what is
happening and are finally saying, my God, this cannot happen anymore, and they are coming forward.
MALVEAUX (voice-over): The White House continues to spin, writing in a statement, "It doesn't matter how many people decide to call themselves
whistleblowers about the same telephone call -- a call the president already made public -- it doesn't change the fact that he has done nothing
wrong."
But the White House transcript summary of that call shows President Trump repeatedly pressuring Ukraine's new leader to investigate his rival.
Trump feels confident he can survive an impeachment vote, if it goes to the Senate.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They have no choice. They have to follow their leadership. And then we'll get to the Senate, and
we're going to win. The Republicans have been very unified.
MALVEAUX (voice-over): But he's facing harsh criticism from some Republican senators after this.
TRUMP: China should start an investigation into the Bidens.
MALVEAUX (voice-over): Senator Susan Collins, joining Mitt Romney and Ben Sasse in rebuking the president's comment.
SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): It's completely inappropriate.
MALVEAUX (voice-over): Romney, taking it a step further, calling the president's China request "brazen," "wrong and appalling," sparking Trump's
fury on Twitter, assailing the former GOP presidential nominee's lack of loyalty by writing, "The Democrats are lucky that they don't have any Mitt
Romney types. They may be lousy politicians... but they stick together."
Most Republican lawmakers, falling in line.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Remember Kavanaugh? It started with one complaint that wound up being unverifiable. This is Kavanaugh all over
again.
CHUCK TODD, NBC ANCHOR, MEET THE PRESS: Do you not trust the -- do you not trust the --
SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): Trump -- President Trump supported our (ph) --
TODD: -- FBI, you don't trust the CIA?
JOHNSON: No. No, I don't.
TODD: I'm just very confused here. You don't trust either --
JOHNSON: Absolutely not. After --
TODD: You don't trust either of those agencies (ph)?
JOHNSON: -- Peter Strzok and Lisa Page?
TODD: OK.
JOHNSON: After James Comey --
TODD: You believe the FBI and the CIA --
JOHNSON: -- Peter Strzok -- John Brennan --
TODD: -- these government agencies?
JOHNSON: -- no, I don't trust any of these guys in the Obama administration.
TODD: OK.
JOHNSON: I don't trust any of them.
TODD: You don't trust them now? Do you trust them now?
JOHNSON: No, I didn't trust them back then.
MALVEAUX (voice-over): Some Democrats, claiming their Republican colleagues are treating Trump like he's a dictator.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): This is wild, the lengths to which Republicans are going to try to avoid being criticized by this president.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: That was Suzanne Malveaux, reporting.
So House Democrats are expanding, by the way, their impeachment inquiry. Today, they sent subpoenas to the Pentagon and the Office of Management and
Budget for information about the freezing of foreign aid to Ukraine. And that's on top, of course, of subpoenas already issued to the White House,
the State Department and the president's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani.
Sunlen Serfaty joins me now, live from Washington. First, Sunlen, a question on that second whistleblower reportedly emerging, corroborating a
lot of what the first whistleblower said? How does that change the impeachment inquiry?
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's potentially hugely significant, Hala, notably that this is potentially some corroboration of
the first whistleblower's account. Of course, we have heard, in recent days, President Trump attack the first whistleblower, although it's
believed that he is not known -- to know who this whistleblower is -- attack the credibility, say this is not firsthand accounts.
Well, by these accounts, the second whistleblower does have firsthand knowledge of these conversations. So essentially, it just adds more fuel
to the fire, so to speak, to the Democrats' impeachment inquiry, and certainly they potentially could use some information as they push forward
in their investigations.
GORANI: And it sounds like, to me, like by expanding the subpoenas to the Department of Defense, and other places, that the Democrats are wanting to
go quickly with this. So based on that, what does the timeline look like for when an impeachment vote might take place in the House?
SERFATY: Yes. You're absolutely right. Speed, for sure, is a critical element of what's going on, up here on the Capitol Hill. Over this week
and last week, it has been recess, when members are home in their districts.
But things have been really developing at a rapid pace up here on the Hill, and that's fueled in part by many Democrats, wanting to at least have some
progress on impeachment by the end of the year, whether that means potentially a vote on articles of impeachment in the committee, House
Judiciary Committee, by even the end of this month, and then potentially a full House floor vote by the end of the year.
There's a concern, of course, if it drags on, if it goes on for many, many months, slips into next calendar year, that is now 2020, election year, so
they are quickening their pace, making sure that they're staying up on all the investigations.
GORANI: And what testimony are we expecting this week? Because there's a big name coming up, we alluded to it.
SERFATY: Yes. Tomorrow, big day for sure. The E.U. ambassador, Gordon Sondland, is expected to appear behind closed doors, up here on Capitol
Hill, in front of the three committees that are investigating this.
[14:20:05]
Notably, he was named in the whistleblower complaint, along with Kurt Volker, for providing advice to the Ukrainian leadership, according to the
whistleblower, about how to navigate the demands that the president made.
TEXT: Who is Gordon Sondland? U.S. ambassador to the E.U. since 2018, appointed by Trump, donated $1 million to Trump's inaugural committee; Set
to appear before congressional committees tomorrow; Embroiled in Ukraine texts; Referenced in whistleblower complaint
SERFATY: And certainly, in the time since, we've seen many of the text messages released between the two of them, in which they do appear to be
working through the president's demands, making sure that the Ukrainians know that at least a bilateral meeting between the two presidents, is
somewhat conditional on them agreeing in some way and making a public statement about moving forward with investigations.
And, Hala, real quick, another big deposition on Friday, the former U.S. ambassador to the Ukraine will also be appearing up here on Capitol Hill,
to give her deposition.
TEXT: Who is Marie Yovanovitch? Became U.S. ambassador to Ukraine in 2016; Called on Ukrainian government to do more to fight corruption;
Unexpectedly recalled from her post in May; Joined the diplomatic corps in 1986
SERFATY: She was, of course, abruptly recalled earlier in the year, so certainly a lot of questions House Democrats have for her.
GORANI: All right. Sunlen Serfaty, thanks very much.
Still to come tonight, the family of a teenage crash victim grieves in Britain. They want answers from the highest levels of the U.S. government.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: British Prime Minister Boris Johnson says he'll go straight to the White House if necessary, to seek justice in a fatal car crash involving
the wife of an American diplomat.
The woman in question left Britain after the accident, claiming diplomatic immunity. Except the problem is, the car accident killed a 19-year-old and
she promised she wasn't going anywhere.
Anna Stewart met with the victim's grieving family.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHARLOTTE CHARLES, MOTHER OF HARRY DUNN: He was a really, really good lad, fun-loving, big heart. From the age of seven, had his first motorbike.
That was his main passion. He's very, very accomplished rider.
ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER (voice-over): On the evening of August 27th, the lives of this family changed forever. Nineteen-year-old Harry Dunn was
riding his motorbike to visit his father when he collided with a car driving on the wrong side of the road near this exit of an RAF air base run
by the U.S. Air Force.
CHARLES: The hospital had come to Harry. They were doing their best to keep him alive. They got him as stable as they possibly could. And took
him to the hospital, where we lost him.
STEWART (voice-over): The police identified the wife of a U.S. diplomat as the suspect, who they say engaged fully with their inquiry before, without
notice, leaving the country under the protection of diplomatic immunity. She's now been named by British Prime Minister Boris Johnson.
BORIS JOHNSON, PRIME MINISTER OF THE UNITED KINGDOM: I hope that Anne Sacoolas will come back and will engage properly with the process of laws
(ph) that are carried out in this country. If we can't resolve it, then of course I will be raising it myself, personally, with the White House.
STEWART (voice-over): Dunn's family say they are delighted the prime minister has committed to help them, and urge him to do whatever it takes
to get Sacoolas back on British soil.
[14:25:00]
STEWART: If you could speak to the wife of the diplomat, the suspect in this case, if she was listening to this right now, what would you say to
her?
CHARLES: I do not understand how, as a mom, you could get on a plane, go back to your own country and completely avoid not only the family that
she's broken, but our justice system as well.
STEWART (voice-over): The U.S. State Department have expressed their condolences, but said, "Any questions regarding a waiver of immunity with
regard to our diplomats and their family members overseas in a case like this receive intense attention at senior levels, and are considered
carefully, given the global impact such decisions carry; immunity is rarely waived."
Harry's family are hoping an exception will be made in this case, and are looking to the British government for support. This week, they'll meet
with the U.K. foreign secretary, Dominic Raab, and they won't stop there. A funding page has been set up to support the campaign.
CHARLES: We will use that money to go to Washington. We will do our best to talk to President Trump. We will do everything we possibly can do.
STEWART (voice-over): But no amount of money can buy a waiver of diplomatic immunity, or put an end to their grief.
CHARLES: I just want to say that everyone in America that's come forward to support us so far through social media and other channels, has been
amazing. It's meant a lot to us. We don't feel like we're on our own.
STEWART (voice-over): Anna Stewart, Northamptonshire, U.K.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Terrible for that family, losing their son.
Still to come tonight, the deadly protests in Iraq caught the government off-guard. Now, the military is making a surprising admission. We are
live in Baghdad, where the death toll is skyrocketing. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Iraq's army is now admitting that it used excessive force against protestors. The prime minister has ordered the withdrawal of military
troops from one Baghdad district, and replaced them with federal police. This comes as the nationwide death toll has risen to more than 100.
Demonstrators are furious, they are furious and angry about high unemployment, corruption and a lack of basic services. CNN's Arwa Damon
joins me now, live from Baghdad with more.
So will it make a difference, replacing the military with police, given all the violence that's occurred already?
ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Hala, we're going to have to see how that particular move plays out, especially since
it is restricted to one Baghdad neighborhood.
[14:30:01]
But we just heard from Iraq's president, Barham Salih, who gave a 20-minute speech, where he called those elements that are firing on the protesters
criminals. And he also told the protesters directly that it was their right to peacefully demonstrate and that they should never stop when it
came to demanding their rights and they should never stop fighting for their future.
But here's a look at what the protests have been like over the last few nights.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAMON (on-camera): Oh, is that all smoke from the tires? Yes, you can see that.
Security forces have been deployed across the capital. Roads are blocked. The internet shut down and media access is severely restricted.
All the fires are burning down there.
We want country we can live in. It's been 16 years, this young man yells. I am a university graduate. He doesn't have work.
Many of the demonstrators are the country's young adults, among whom unemployment is especially high.
Another man here says he studied law. The only work he found is in a hair salon. He says he's been demonstrating for days.
His friend was just killed.
They shout over each other about the government's use of force. Their friends were killed in the demonstrations, the injustice.
This man who doesn't want his identity disclosed has been filming from the start.
This is the first day. You can see in the, video all of it, there's nothing. He's saying like the people weren't attacking the security
forces. Our only weapon was to physically block off the street so that the security forces couldn't advance.
The demonstrators demands are not unreasonable, he says, end corruption, provide employment and improve basic services.
But the protests have grown more violent, threatening this country's already fragile security. And the rising death toll has incensed those
trying to take to the streets.
This video is from day three, when there was still a curfew in place. It's really hard to look at because there is a man on the ground who has a head
wound. The audio of the gunfire is just constant.
A few minutes later, another man is seen bleeding from a gunshot wound.
He says, all they want is to be heard. Stop the killing, he pleads. Listen to what they want. Send someone from the government to say I am
here to talk to you, what do you need?
Baghdad's focal point for demonstrations is surrounded by a ring of security. The capital is tense, on edge. The government is calling for
calm and has pledged to address the demonstrators' demands, promises the population has heard before. But hollow words will no longer smother the
people's rage.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: And, Arwa, let me ask you this. Who gave the order for these soldiers and the -- and the military to fire live ammunition like this? I
mean, it seems that in some cases the demonstrators were targeted. I mean, some of these young men as you showed in your piece were shot in the head.
Someone had to have given the order, right? Who's going to take responsibility?
DAMON: Well, here's the thing, Hala. The government is to a certain degree taking responsibility, because at the end of the day, this happened
on their watch.
However, we heard from Iraq's prime minister who vowed that they did not give the order to use lethal force. We heard just now from Iraq's
president who said those who did use lethal force would be held accountable, calling them criminals. He also called those who attacked the
media.
Remember, a number of media offices were also attacked. Staff was beaten up. Equipment was smashed, and this includes a smaller local media network
as well as Saudi owned, Al-Arabiya.
The people have been wanting to demonstrate. They have been unable to do so. So we heard also from the president saying, look, this is your right,
go out, peacefully demonstrate. This is your constitutional right, and you should be able to carry it out.
There is a sense that the status quo in Iraq can no longer last, but really bringing those people who did use lethal force to justice is going to be a
big challenge for this government, but that is going to be one of the many demands that they're now going to have to meet.
GORANI: All right. Arwa Damon, live in Baghdad. Thanks very much.
There's a new name and face in the impeachment's inquiry and to U.S. President Donald Trump, it's energy secretary, Rick Perry. He's now having
to admit that he asked Mr. Trump multiple times to call the Ukrainian president. But he said it was about energy, and Joe Biden and his son, he
says, never came up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[14:35:18]
RICK PERRY, U.S. SECRETARY OF ENERGY: Absolutely. I asked the president multiple times. Mr. President, we think it is in the United States and in
Ukraine's best interest that you and the president of Ukraine have conversations that you discuss the options that are there. So absolutely
yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Rick Perry, Ukrainians caught in the middle of it all are still coping with violent conflict in their country. People there tell CNN Sam
Kiley that Mr. Trump is playing with their lives.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ukrainian soldiers say farewell to a comrade killed by rebels. Another casualty in a
five-year Russian-backed separatist war.
Oleg Reminny was 33, a volunteer, and a father. To his mother, there's no doubt about who's the villain here.
OLGA REMINNY, MOTHER OF KILLED SOLDIER (through translator): What does this Putin lack? Russia is such a huge country. They have so much oil and
gas in Siberia. I'm saying, when will this scum have taken his fill?
KILEY: Half a decade into a civil war that's killed 13,000 people, this is trench warfare. Ukrainian forces fought the rebels to a stalemate helped
by $1.5 billion in U.S. military aid since 2014.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's just like you throw a ball just like that.
KILEY: But this summer, Donald Trump suspended nearly $400 million of that support and sought help from Ukraine's new president to investigate the
roles that his domestic political rival, Joe Biden, and his son, Hunter, have played here.
President Volodymyr Zelensky has mostly resisted Trump's demands. He's focused on a controversial peace plan that's running into widespread
opposition.
KILEY (on-camera): This demonstration here in Kiev's famous Maidan is against proposals from President Zelensky to make peace with the east of
the country, with the rebels in the east that would give them a high degree of autonomy from the perspective here of the demonstrators too much
influence of Russia, a capitulation, they say, to Russian aggression.
But there's also a high degree of frustration even content for Donald Trump's efforts to suspend military aid to them right in the middle of this
conflict.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He plays not Zelensky, he played with the lives of our soldiers, because we really need this help because Ukraine has now a
lot of support from Europe or from another countries, and so this aid is very important for us to resist against Russian soldiers and Russian
troops.
KILEY (-voice-over): American military aid is once again flowing to Ukraine. But Trump's own legacy here may have been dealt a fatal blow.
Sam Kiley, CNN, Kiev.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: With the Ukraine controversy and now the withdrawal of American troops from northern Syria, U.S. President Donald Trump is one pressure
over his foreign policy decisions.
Our international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson, joins me now. Talk to me first about what this means for the Kurds. Because the Kurds feel
abandoned, they feel stabbed in the back, they feel like they were the ones who suffered, who fought, who defeated ISIS, who lost men and women in this
fight and now the U.S. just hands them over to Turkey. That's what they are saying.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: And this is going to put them in the line of fire, potentially, line of fire without the friends
that they've gotten used to. The Kurds, of course, will sort of getting involved in the Syrian war because they had a good relationship with Bashar
al-Assad. Maybe that's the direction they're going to have to lean in the future, strategically, which puts them leaning back towards Russia and Iran
rather than the United States.
Look, the big picture here is that, you know, what we're seeing the United States do, this is the world's number one superpower. It is -- it is on
the decline, however, and what President Trump is doing here is hastening the decline of the United States global reach as a superpower, superpowers
build their empires and main their empires with their global reach and hold and that costs money and President Trump doesn't want to spend it in Syria.
GORANI: Some have said, this was drawn by the U.S. President. This retreat in terms of foreign policy. Could even be reversible in some ways.
I mean, because all this vacuum is being filled by other forces.
ROBERTSON: You know, it's not going to be easily reversible, and certainly -- how do you convince those allies that have been as close to you as the
Kurds there that you're going to be there in good faith? President Trump has been seen on many global issues whether it's on Iran, whether it's on
North Korea, whether it's on Ukraine.
[14:40:16]
You know, it's a flip flop, depending almost upon the days. So he's seen as not dependable. So, how do you re-engage with those old allies on the
ground? The Europeans, the British today said, look, we're worried when we see this unilateral decision. It erodes the good work that we've already
done in fighting the ISIS.
GORANI: Were the French, the Brits given a heads up about this U.S. announcement? Because they also have boots on the ground.
ROBERTSON: They have boots on the ground. They have an interest. They feel that they've made gains alongside the United States.
GORANI: Were they told?
ROBERTSON: It's not clear. They certainly haven't said -- they certainly haven't publicly said that they weren't told, but we don't know at the
moment, you know, the positioning on that.
What sort of underlines this is that, you know, if you want to go -- to your question, if you want to go back into Syria and have an engagement
there, it doesn't wait for you. The situation on the ground doesn't wait. Your partners there need to look to their threats and their future.
And when you give up ground, you give it up and you can get it back so readily, the equation changes.
GORANI: Also, I mean you have tweets like -- when you saw the latest tweet from the president what was widely mocked saying that he has great and
unmatched wisdom, that he would obliterate the Turkish economy -- I'm paraphrasing now, if the Turks went against his great and unmatched wisdom.
I mean, these are some -- I mean, let's be honest, these just are very peculiar, I'm putting it mildly because if anyone goes on Twitter there,
many other adjectives being used to describe this. Very strange tweets from the president of the United States.
ROBERTSON: And they don't inspire confidence in the allies. And his allies in Syria have been Europe, European nation, France and others. And
he has said it -- the responsible -- we're pulling out. I'm trimming it out, their responsibilities now in unit to make sure all those ISIS
prisoners don't end up, you know, free and running around and able to form fighting groups again.
You know, what message is that? You know, I go back to what I said. You can't -- you can't underestimate what -- how president Trump is eroding the
United States' global standing. It is the superpower, it is on the decline, and this is being accelerated.
GORANI: Yes. We need to move on. Lots of speculation about why you made that decision against the best wishes and advice of his top supporters.
Yes. So that's something, another angle that we'll explore.
Thanks very much, Nic Robertson.
Still to come tonight, a new look at a place the U.S. calls a concentration camp. We hear from two former detainees held in China's training centers
for Uyghurs. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:45:59]
GORANI: Prisoners bound and blindfolded in places the U.S. has compared to concentration camps, China has consistently denied that claim. Instead,
calling the camps training centers.
Beijing says it's holding thousands of Uyghurs and other Muslim minorities there to combat terrorism. That's its official line.
Matt Rivers spoke to two former detainees about conditions they saw on a video.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATT RIVERS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Row by row, there are hundreds of them seated on the ground, heads shaved, blindfolded,
their hands are bound behind their backs as dozens of guards hover in SWAT uniforms.
It's unclear who these prisoners are, but western intelligence sources tell CNN they believe the video is authentic, that it shows Muslim ethnic
minorities, and that the video was shot in Xinjiang, China.
Xinjiang is the western Chinese region, where the government has detained hundreds of thousands of Muslims over the past several years, according to
the United States. Detainees are almost exclusively ethnic minorities, including Uyghurs, who have lived in the region for generations, now housed
in massive camps like this one that we saw firsthand on a trip to Xinjiang in March. We were followed by police every moment of our six-day journey.
Multiple ex-detainees and a former camp employee have told CNN that torture and political indoctrination are rampant inside the camps. Critics say
Beijing has rounded up minorities arbitrarily and en masse, in a blatant attempt to destroy their cultures and wipe out Islam within its borders.
Beijing has repeatedly denied that, saying the camps are merely, quote, "Vocational training centers," designed to counter Islamic extremism in
Xinjiang, which has seen terrorist attacks in the past.
A western intelligence source tells CNN, their analysis of the video, posted online anonymously last month, shows detainees transferred by train.
Analysis by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute suggests the video was shot in the city of Korla in August 2018.
In response, the Xinjiang government said in a statement to CNN, quote, "Cracking down on crimes in accordance with law is the common practice of
all countries. Xinjiang's crackdown on crimes has never been linked to ethnicities or religions. Transporting inmates by judicial authorities
belongs to normal judicial activities."
But, two men, one in the Netherlands and one in Kazakhstan, say the activity is anything but normal and that the video is terrifyingly
familiar, because they lived through something similar.
Amanzhan Seiit, a Muslim ethnic Kazakh, says he was detained in China in 2018, never told what for. Held in his first camp for several weeks, he
says he was transferred to another, exactly as shown in the video.
We were made to sit just like that, he says. They put cuffs on our hands and legs and masks over our heads. Lots of police were there with guns.
He was released after several months and now lives in Kazakhstan, a country on China's western border. While detained, he says the fear of what might
happen was the worst.
AMANZHAN SEIIT, DETAINED IN CHINESE CAMP (through translator): Watching the video, I'm still scared, because I know what the prisoners are
thinking. They don't know where they're being taken or if they'll be shot dead. It's terrifying.
RIVERS: There are no publicly-known instances of shooting deaths inside the camps.
More than 3,000 miles away, Omerbek Bikali, another Muslim Kazakh, knows how it feels to be scared in custody. He lives in the Netherlands now
after being detained in a Chinese camp for months in 2017. He claims he was tortured regularly and describes the camps as hell.
OMERBEK BIKALI, DETAINED IN CHINESE CAMP (through translator): I think the reason they want to torture us is, firstly, to make us physically weak so
that we cannot resist.
RIVERS: Bikali says though he was transferred between camps by car, he, too, had a bag placed over his head and his hands shackled. Watching the
drone video, he's overcome with emotion.
"I feel so sad," he says. "That used to be me. I cannot forget that. It's criminal."
Beijing did not respond to questions about the allegations from both men. CNN cannot independently verify the authenticity of this video or the date
it was shot.
Prisoners in China are regularly transported wearing blindfolds, and it's unclear whether the men are being held for criminal offenses or for other
reasons.
But this drone video does not exist in a vacuum. Rather, it is a singular piece of a swiftly mounting body of evidence, including firsthand accounts,
that shows China is persecuting people in Xinjiang simply because they are Muslim, committing human rights abuses in the process.
Matt Rivers, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Well, anti-government protests in Hong Kong are in their 18th week. Now fallout has reached the world of professional basketball after
the general manager of the Houston Rockets tweeted support for the demonstrators.
[14:50:00]
CNN's David Culver reports from Beijing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID CULVER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): China's passion for basketball can be seen in a neighborly game of pickup. When
he's not shooting hoops with his friends in Beijing, 15-year-old Eric Qu is closely following the NBA.
ERIC QU, BASKETBALL FAN: Toronto Raptors.
CULVER (on camera): The Toronto Raptors?
QU: Yes.
CULVER (on camera): They're your favorite?
QU: Yes, they win the championship.
CULVER (voice-over): But a team that's no longer on his preferred watch list, the Houston Rockets because of a now-deleted tweet sent out Friday by
team general manager, Daryl Morey. The Rockets G.M. tweeting a photo that read, "Fight for freedom. Stand with Hong Kong," referring to the months'
long democracy protests underway in Hong Kong, protests that have both embarrassed and angered China's government.
Over the weekend, Morey's tweet unleashed a strong response in Mainland China. The Chinese Basketball Association severing ties with the Rockets.
CCTV, the Chinese state-run broadcaster, no longer planning to air upcoming games. And the Chinese tech giant, Tencent, suspending its deal to
livestream Rockets games.
The reaction led to an apology by Morey, tweeting in part, "I have always appreciated the significant support our Chinese fans and sponsors have
provided and I would hope that those who are upset will know that offending or misunderstanding them was not my intention."
CNN was in Tokyo as the Rockets hit the court Monday. Rockets guard, James Harden, echoing his G.M.'s apology.
JAMES HARDEN, GUARD, HOUSTON ROCKETS: You know, we love China, we love playing there. I know for both of us, individually, we go there, you know,
once or twice a year. They show us the most support and love, so we appreciate them as a fan base.
CULVER: The NBA acknowledging Morey's tweet deeply offended many in China and called it regrettable, but that has U.S. lawmakers on both sides upset.
Republican Senator Ted Cruz tweeting, "Human rights shouldn't be for sale and the NBA shouldn't be assisting Chinese communist censorship."
Democratic Congressman, Tom Malinowski, called the NBA's response shameful.
Back on the streets of Beijing, Eric and his friends try to see past the off-court drama.
CULVER (on camera): Does it make you think differently about the Rockets?
QU: Just OK. It didn't change my opinion on them. I still like Harden and -- but maybe I won't watch them too often.
CULVER: Basketball has been a big deal here in China for decades. But their love for the sport really intensified in 2002 when Yao Ming, one of
their own, signed with an NBA team, the Houston Rockets. Yao today is the president of the Chinese Basketball Association, the same association that
severed ties with the Rockets, his former team.
David Culver, CNN, Beijing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: From the plastic cups we use for morning coffee to plastic cutlery at lunch, one Japanese company is trying to change our plastic habits to
help the environment.
Kristie Lu Stout has our story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Japan boasts one of the highest recycling rates in the world. Eight-four percent of the plastic it
collects, the country claims ends up being recycled.
But the kind of recycling that goes on at this plant turning old plastic into new plastic, takes place for less than a quarter of collected plastic.
Much of the rest is burned.
KENJI FUMA, FOUNDER AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, NEURAL: If you say that recycling is plastic, the plastic is a productive products. The number is
-- they're really low.
LU STOUT: Kenji Fuma is the founder and CEO of Neural, a Tokyo-based consulting firm specializing in corporate sustainability.
FUMA: Japan's really care about continence and health about plastics. So we consume a lot of the plastics.
LU STOUT: Last year, Fuma was hired as a contractor to help with Yahoo Japan's sustainability efforts and the decision was made to replace the
plastic cups in the company cafeteria with bamboo ones.
[14:55:01]
KOICHI KOTANI, OFFICE AND MANAGEMENT SUPPORT, YAHOO JAPAN (through translator): Plastic waste was becoming a global issue. And as we are
using fairly large amounts of plastic unit, we started wondering what can we do? More people are using bamboo cups than I expected. The number of
plastics used before was 18,000 per month, but has decreased by 8,000.
LU STOUT: Kristie Lu Stout, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Last month's tied for the hottest September on record, such intense weather events are driving many people to say enough to government
inaction. And they're taking to the streets to do it. Matthew Chance has more on Extinction Rebellion protests.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(CROWD CHANTING)
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Well, hundreds of people have come here to Central London as part of this
Extinction Rebellion protest. They're here, of course, to highlight climate change and the dangers that poses. They've got all the signs with
Stop war, stop climate chaos, everything will change. People are full of optimism.
They want three things though. First, they want the government to, in their words, tell the truth, to declare a climate emergency. Of course,
that's their biggest concern that this is not being taken seriously enough.
Secondly, they want firm action from the government as well, a reduction in net emissions of greenhouse gases to zero by 2025. And that's, of course,
very optimistic. Critics say it's totally unrealistic. But nevertheless, that's one of their demands.
Finally, they want a citizen's advisory council to oversee government implementation of environmental policies. And it is incredibly urgent,
these protesters say, that action is taken now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do we want?
CROWD: Climate change.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When do we want it?
CROWD: Now.
CHANCE: Why now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because now is the only time we have. We're out of time. The government has to act. We all have to act. It's not enough me
and you doing recycling and doing this and there. The government needs to put things in place. It needs to demand changes.
(CROWD CHANTING)
CHANCE: Do you think people are going to listen though to this? Because it's not just in London, it's all over the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I think people are listening.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so. I think the cities comes to a standstill in the middle. We've got a really positive group of people. What we were
saying is we want things to change.
CHANCE: Well, the tactics that the Extinction Rebellion movements are using are classic (INAUDIBLE). They're not just blocking streets here in
Central London and elsewhere, but rather were -- but also key government installations, government buildings, train stations, even airports.
And obviously that attracts big police presence. There have been multiple arrests. And the organizers that they say they're expecting even more in
the weeks ahead.
Matthew Chance, CNN, in Central London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: I'm Hala Gorani. Stay with CNN. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
