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Hala Gorani Tonight
State Department Blocks Gordon Sondland Testimony; U.S. Troops Relocating on Syrian-Turkish Border; NBA Defends Freedom of Speech. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired October 08, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:20]
HALA GORANI, CNN HOST, HALA GORANI TONIGHT: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London, I'm Hala Gorani.
Tonight, the Trump administration blocks a key witness in the impeachment inquiry from testifying. We'll tell you how the Democrats are trying to
hit back.
Also, we'll go live to the Turkey-Syria border where confusion reigns about what lies ahead for Kurdish fighters there.
Also this:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BERCOW, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS: Well, of course I remember that still, very keenly. And --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Why the speaker of the U.K. House of Commons was brought to tears in an emotional interview with CNN.
The order came in a phone call just after midnight, leading a crucial witness in the impeachment inquiry of U.S. President Donald Trump to have
to skip his testimony on Capitol Hill today.
Now, Democrats are raising the stakes. They say they will issue a subpoena, and they are accusing the White House of obstruction.
A lawyer for the U.S. ambassador to the E.U. Gordon Sondland, says he's profoundly disappointed that he couldn't testify.
Democrats want a lot of things. They want information about text messages that he exchanged, involving Mr. Trump's efforts to pressure the Ukrainian
president. A top Democrat says the White House is not only blocking Sondland's testimony, but also physical evidence.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): We are also aware that the ambassador has text messages or e-mails on a personal device, which have been provided to the
State Department, although we have requested those from the ambassador, and the State Department is withholding those messages as well. Those messages
are also deeply relevant to this investigation and the impeachment inquiry.
GORANI: President Trump essentially took responsibility for blocking Sondland with a tweet, saying he'd love to send him to testify but not in
front of what he calls a "kangaroo court."
TEXT: Donald J. Trump: I would love to send Ambassador Sondland, a really good man and great American, to testify, but unfortunately he would be
testifying before a totally compromised kangaroo court, where Republicans' rights have been taken away, and true facts are not allowed out for the
public...
GORANI: House Republicans are coming to Mr. Trump's defense once again. They are echoing his allegations that the House impeachment inquiry is
unfair, and using some of the same exact language as him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MATT GAETZ, (R-FL): What we see in this impeachment is a kangaroo court. And Chairman Schiff is acting like a malicious Captain Kangaroo.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP LEE ZELDIN (R-NY): So if we sound like we're pissed as we stand here, it's because we are. The American people are getting screwed by an enraged
liberal activist base, demanding impeachment. They don't even care what the crime is, they don't care what the facts are, they don't care what the
evidence is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Captain Kangaroo, by the way, was a children's television program in the United States, not necessarily related to kangaroo courts, which is
something a lot of people on Twitter certainly picked up on.
The blocking of Sondland's testimony could signal more trouble ahead for the impeachment inquiry. Another key witness is supposed to testify on
Friday.
So there is a lot going on. Let's bring in senior U.S. correspondent Alex Marquardt, congressional correspondent Sunlen Serfaty as well.
So let's start with you, Alex. Why would the State Department or the -- in this case, the Trump administration, the president is taking, also, that
position -- block Sondland at this stage? Why would they not just allow him to speak with congressional investigators behind closed doors?
ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Well, very simply, because he was going to be asked quite directly about those text messages that were
revealed last week, in which it shows very clearly that he understood, as ambassador to the European Union, how closely intertwined U.S.-Ukraine
policy was with the president's personal interest in Ukraine investigating Joe Biden and his son for corruption.
In that slew of text messages that was released, it became clear that Ambassador Sondland was well aware of the efforts by the president's lawyer
Rudy Giuliani, to push that conspiracy theory that has been widely debunked.
There's also a text message in which Ambassador Sondland talks about how President Trump is interested in a deliverable. And if you take that in
the broader context of all these text messages, that deliverable, we understand, is the president's interest in the Bidens being investigated by
Ukraine and the new Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky.
Now, the team behind Sondland says that he was ready to be deposed by these three House committees today. They only got word after midnight, at 12:30
p.m. (sic), that they were being blocked from doing so. That word came from the State Department, but by direction of the Trump administration.
[14:05:01]
We understood that late into the night, there were deliberations by White House lawyers about how much to collaborate or to work with House
Democrats, who have not actually voted on formal impeachment proceedings. And it was decided, late at night, that Sondland should not be deposed.
Now, as you mentioned, Hala, at the top, his lawyer says that he was profoundly disappointed. His lawyer also said that, "Ambassador Sondland
believes strongly that he acted at all times in the best interests of the United States, and he stands ready to answer the committee's questions
fully and truthfully...
"Ambassador Sondland hopes that the issues raised by the State Department that preclude his testimony will be resolved promptly. He stands ready to
testify on short notice, whenever he is permitted to appear."
And of course, as you mentioned, Hala, there is now --
GORANI: Yes.
MARQUARDT: -- a subpoena for him to appear.
GORANI: Yes. And I was going to ask Sunlen about that subpoena. Because the Democrats are saying, not so fast, you're not allowing him to testify
without a subpoena? We'll issue one. What happens next?
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hala, Democrats up here on the Hill are moving very quickly, just within hours of being notified
that he was blocked from his testimony, the House Intel Committee chairman Adam Schiff, announcing that he will indeed push forward (ph) to subpoena
Sondland, not only for his testimony, but the documents, these text messages, phone -- perhaps phone calls that they want to see, this
additional evidence.
Making it clear that this is a very deliberate next step, that when and if he does -- he is not compelled to come to Capitol Hill, in defiance of that
subpoena, that they will essentially factor that into their case that they are building for obstruction, up here on Capitol Hill, and plays into the
building blocks of the articles of impeachment.
That's, of course, something that is in (ph) supported as of now, by Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi. This morning, she was asked about it in
this new context, given that he has been directed not to come up here on Capitol Hill. Does it affect the timeline?
She said, not at all. We certainly want to be deliberate here, but said that certainly, time is of the essence.
So a lot of Democrats, Hala, pushing to at least have some movement on articles of impeachment, at least in the committee, by the end of the
month. And so this obstruction by the White House today, the stonewalling, what Democrats will call it, only plays into the Democrats' hand.
GORANI: All right. Sunlen Serfaty and Alex Marquardt, thanks very much.
Let's get more on all of this. We have Stephen Collinson with us, our White House reporter; Elie Honig as well, our legal analyst.
Elie, first of all, if Congress issues this subpoena and it says that -- they say, on Capitol Hill, that they will -- and Ambassador Sondland does
not appear, what happens?
ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So, Hala, the subpoena raises the stakes legally but it's not self-enforcing. A subpoena is supposed to be
mandatory. If you receive a subpoena, then you must testify or you must produce documents.
But what I think will happen, here, is Sondland and the administration will claim some sort of privilege, executive privilege or immunity. I do not
think they are going to say, OK, now we've received a subpoena, now we'll comply.
HARLOW: Right.
HONIG: And what that's going to do when they defy this, is raise it to the next level, which Adam Schiff really has two choices. One is take it into
the courts. That could be time-consuming, though, and I think that's part of the strategy on the administration's end. The other option is to just
say, we don't need you. We're going to assume the worst. We have enough evidence, and we're going to work this into a potential article of
impeachment for obstruction.
GORANI: Because what they want is, they want additional texts, they say there are potentially personal e-mails --
HONIG: Yes.
GORANI: -- they say maybe there are other devices, that we really are entitled, within this investigation, to get our hands on this material and
on these devices, potentially. That's what they're after, Elie.
HONIG: Exactly. And I think Adam Schiff, I think on purpose today, let it be known that he believes there's a personal cell phone that Sondland had,
that they do not -- the House does not yet have access to it.
I think what he was doing, is making the point of, we actually don't have all that we're entitled to. There's plenty more evidence out there,
including some potentially very interesting and relevant evidence that might be on his personal phone, that we need to get if we're really going
to find the truth.
GORANI: I'm going to get to the political implications of this in a moment, but I think for our viewers around the world, Elie, it's important
to note that if a court in a criminal case issues a subpoena, you cannot resist, right? The appearance? You have to appear. In this case, it's
different.
HONIG: Exactly. There's two different kinds of subpoenas. It's really important to understand this distinction. A criminal subpoena, which would
be issued in a criminal case, is mandatory and there are very, very limited ways to resist it. You can invoke certain privileges, attorney-client or
the Fifth Amendment, but by and large you don't have any choice. And you go to jail. I've actually done cases, briefly imprisoning people who
defied subpoenas.
Congressional subpoenas are really -- frankly, they don't carry as much punch. And as we've seen throughout the last several months, the
administration has been defying them largely without consequence. So it's up to Congress how they're going to deal with this, what types of
responsive tactics they're going to use.
[14:10:01]
GORANI: And I guess it's also about how voters interpret this resistance to testify and cooperate. Stephen Collinson, there was a new "Washington
Post" poll out today, 58 percent of those asked support an inquiry, but that's across the board politically.
But interestingly, three in 10 Republicans -- just about, 28 percent -- support the inquiry. That's interesting because that number is growing.
What do you make of that?
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, that's interesting because it shows that at least some Republicans who support the president,
also support an inquiry. And that must be a worrying figure for the president, as he starts to try and shape public opinion against
impeachment, and to kind of tackle this rise of support for the process.
I think that's what we saw playing out today, Hala. This was the most significant political step that the president has taken --
GORANI: Yes.
COLLINSON: -- so far, to get this impeachment machine that the Democrats have been gathering momentum with, back under control. He's signaling to
Democrats that he's not going to cooperate, he's going to try to slow everything down and he is going to put them in a series of difficult
positions, and raise conundrums that they have to solve.
So far, in the two weeks of this, the boot has been on the other foot, if you like. And that all comes back to the political battle because, as you
know, impeachment is not a legal proceeding, it's a political battle, it's whether enough members of Congress believe the president has abused his
power and should therefore be ejected from office.
GORANI: And there's another interesting poll result, and that's the crucial independent, group of independent voters who identify neither with
the Republican Party nor the Democratic Party. They're at 57 percent in favor of this impeachment inquiry. What does that tell us?
COLLINSON: It tells us that Donald Trump needs to get every single Republican in the United States, pretty much, to vote for him in 2020, and
he needs a chunk of independents in more moderate districts.
What happened in the midterm elections, when Republicans lost the House, is the president lost a lot of those independents, and therefore he lost the
House.
If independents are getting more and more suspicious of the president's dealings with Ukraine, if they come to believe her abused his power and
therefore should not be in office, it's quite likely that they may follow through in 2020, and decide that he doesn't deserve a second term.
So the political stakes -- which so far, up until the last few weeks, have been weighing heavily against impeachment, most voters didn't approve of it
-- if these polls are confirmed by future polls, it suggests that the president has a bigger problem with impeachment politically than it looked
like he would have just a few weeks ago.
GORANI: Right. Pat Robertson, the preacher, said Trump risks losing the mandate of heaven. This was with regards to the U.S. troop pullout and the
perceived sort of betrayal of Kurdish fighters. Different -- a different topic altogether, but the fact that you have an evangelical speaking like
this was interesting.
Elie, last question to you here. Where -- is this going -- is this, compared to other impeachment inquiries -- there haven't been that many in
the United States --
HONIG: Right.
GORANI: -- but is it going faster than you would have anticipated?
HONIG: So it is. This -- remember, this all has unfolded over, really, the course of about two weeks. But the clock --
GORANI: Yes.
HONIG: -- is ticking here, and I think everyone needs to be aware of this. The best comparison we have is the Bill Clinton impeachment in 1998, '99.
That inquiry started in October of '98, the House impeached Clinton in December of '98, so about two months, and then they tried him in the
Senate, January and February of '99. So, all told, that's about four, five months, start to finish.
And I think Adam Schiff is very much aware that the clock is ticking here. In fact, we're one year closer to a presidential election, now, than they
were back with Bill Clinton. So he understands, Adam Schiff understands, delay here is the administration's friend and expediency is Schiff's goal.
GORANI: All right. Elie Honig and Stephen Collinson, thanks so much.
HONIG: Thank you.
GORANI: Meanwhile -- and we talked about it briefly -- the U.S. president is facing some very harsh criticism, even by some of his closest allies --
for his decision to pull U.S. troops out of northern Syria. Donald Trump is being accused of turning his back on U.S.-backed Kurdish forces in the
region, and allowing Turkey to conduct an operation in that part of Syria.
A European official now says there is a major risk of an ISIS breakout if those forces are distracted, forces to fight the Turkish forces, rather
than guarding some of these ISIS prisoners. This is as Turkish defense officials say all preparations for their military operations in the area
are now completed. What does that mean?
You'll remember, the Kurds fought and died alongside U.S. forces in the battle against ISIS. They did the fighting, the U.S. was in a supporting
role. Let's go to senior international correspondent Nick Paton Walsh. He's on the Turkish-Syrian border.
[14:15:00]
So, Nick, I've read -- you're there, so you're going to be able to shed light on this. But I've read many reports suggesting the U.S. forces in
that part of Syria have not started leaving, have not even been given orders to move. What is going on exactly there, with regards to American
boots on the ground?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it hasn't really changed much since the initial change after the Sunday night
announcement from the White House. We know that about two dozen, possibly as many as 50 of the troops that were positioned along parts of the border,
behind me here, about 30 miles behind me, have in fact moved back.
Now, that does not mean that U.S. troops have left northeastern Syria altogether, or are beginning to do that. There's no suggestion the number
of total of them has in fact decreased. What they seem to have done is got out of the way of any potential Turkish operation.
Now, in the area around us here, we had constant witnesses saying that they're seeing Turkish armor on the move, signs of Turkish military
activity building up in some areas, on the move to others.
It's hard to tell if that heralds something imminent, or if it is just simply what they would normally do, down on a border here, which has been
pretty heavily fortified since ISIS popped up about four or five years ago as a major threat to Turkey. The question is, is Turkey willing to do
something in the days or weeks ahead?
We had a fascinating development, again, from Donald Trump, who issued another barrage of tweets, reminding the world that Turkey was a key
trading partner, inviting President Erdogan to the White House on November the 13th, while at the same time, too, threatening economic destruction if
Turkey did something that he considered to be unforced violence against the Syrian Kurdish allies here.
So you have to wonder if President Erdogan wants to act now, or wants to get that White House visit out of the way before he makes a move. He
certainly has to deal with the fact that the U.S. still control the skies over the border behind me here, as far as we know from U.S. officials. You
don't really, probably, if you're a Turkish military general, want to see your troops going in without air cover on something like this.
But still, it's quite clear the Turkish are getting themselves ready for something. They're talking about it loudly. The question really is, when
and how extensive -- Hala.
GORANI: And how will those SDF and Kurdish fighters react to this attack? What is their strategy? Because, obviously, the more powerful side here is
the Turkish military. I mean, they -- where -- how are they going to resist this operation, at whatever form it might take?
PATON WALSH: It sounds, doesn't it, by the way you describe the balance of forces there, like it would be good news for the Turkish. I have to say,
you know, if they try something, possibly more than a limited operation -- and remember, too, you know, before this crisis began, they were doing
joint patrols inside Syria with their American counterparts, trying to create a safe zone about five miles.
President Erdogan was talking about taking way more of northeastern Syria off the Syrian Kurds as part of his plan. If they do that, if they sort of
go along with the Erdogan map, as he showed at the U.N. General Assembly, that's most of the heavily populated areas the Syrian Kurds control.
That would be involving the Turkish army, taking on Syrian Kurdish fighters emboldened by years of fighting ISIS in urban environments. That's a long,
messy years-long task. They may prevail very fast early on. The question is, in a long war of attrition in a massive border area like this, with
fighters like the Syrian Kurds steeled in both their ideology and their fighting against ISIS in the past years or so, that could be a lengthy
mess.
So I think the smart money is on President Erdogan ordering a limited operation to flex his muscles, show his capability, achieve immediate goals
to say something has been done. Whether or not that extends, though --
GORANI: Right.
PATON WALSH: -- into creating an extraordinary, hundred-kilometer-wide, 30-mile-deep zone that was shown on that U.N. map, we're really not clear
at this point.
GORANI: All right. Certainly, there is -- there are many questions still that need to be answered. Thanks very much, Nick Paton Walsh near the
Syria-Turkey border.
And, by the way, we'll have more on the U.S. president's decision to withdraw troops from northern Syria later this hour. I'll get reaction
from a Kurdish politician about the situation on the ground there, he'll be joining me live from inside Syria.
[14:19:11]
Still to come tonight, the NBA commissioner does a 180, responding the backlash over a tweet supporting Hong Kong protests. What he says, now,
that has angered China. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Less than 24 hours after the NBA said it regretted a team manager's tweet supporting Hong Kong's antigovernment protests, the league
is doing an abrupt about-face. Commissioner Adam Silver now says profit cannot come before principles after all, and freedom of expression must be
protected.
The tweet has led to, unsurprisingly, backlash in China. And David Kozer (ph) -- Culver, I should say -- explains -- David.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ADAM SILVER, NBA COMMISSIONER: We are not apologizing for Daryl exercising his freedom of expression.
DAVID CULVER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): NBA commissioner Adam Silver, standing behind Houston Rockets general manager
Daryl Morey, after growing backlash over the league's handling of a tweet Morey posted in support of Hong Kong protestors.
SILVER: The long-held values of the NBA are to support freedom of expression. And certainly, freedom of expression by members of the NBA
community.
I don't think it's inconsistent, on the one hand, to be sympathetic to them. And at the same time, stand by our principles.
CULVER (voice-over): Silver, stressing this is not about money and that he is not willing to jeopardize the league's values.
SILVER: I understand that there are consequences from that exercise of, in essence, his freedom of speech. And you know, we will have to live with
those consequences.
CULVER (voice-over): This comes after China's state media announced it would halt broadcasting all NBA pre-season games, and slamming the NBA,
stating, "We express our strong dissatisfaction and opposition to Silver's stated support of Morey's right to speech. We believe any remarks that
challenge national sovereignty and social stability do not belong to the category of free speech."
Morey's tweet set off a firestorm in China after he tweeted his support for Hong Kong protestors. China demanded a clarification of the tweet, which
has since been deleted, and the NBA responded by calling the post regrettable.
The Chinese government, responding to the NBA, saying, "It's not going to work if you have exchanges and cooperation with China but don't understand
Chinese public opinion."
Many U.S. politicians on both sides of the aisle slammed the NBA's response. Republican Senator Josh Hawley, writing a scathing letter to
Silver, accusing the league of putting potential profits in China over human rights, later tweeting that the "NBA should apologize for groveling
to Chinese Communist Party and cancel all exhibition games until the situation in Hong Kong is resolved, peacefully."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They should understand that if they yield one time, then the pressure will be greater. And it is very typical for the Chinese
authorities to ask more and more.
CULVER (voice-over): The creators of "South Park," Matt Stone and Trey Parker, hitting back in "South Park" fashion after the Chinese government
scrubbed this episode of "South Park" from the internet, Monday.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anybody who would betray their ideals just to make money in China isn't worth a lick of spit.
CULVER (voice-over): The comedy duo, issuing a fake apology, saying, quote, "Like the NBA, we welcome the Chinese censors into our homes and
into our hearts. We too love money more than freedom and democracy."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CULVER: So the next stage of this brings the sage to mainland China. On Thursday, that's when the next pre-season NBA game is expected to take
place. It's going to be in Shanghai. And also there, will be NBA commissioner Adam Silver. He's hoping to be there to continue his
conversations with Chinese officials, and perhaps reach some understanding -- Hala.
[14:25:03]
GORANI: All right, David, thanks very much.
The controversy isn't just on the basketball court. Another sport has been dragged into the tensions over Hong Kong's protests: e-sports. It's a
multi-billion-dollar industry. Take a look at the gamer on the right. He's competing in a major e-sports tournament. You can see him wearing
goggles and a gas mask. He then shouts a popular protest slogan in Mandarin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Liberate Hong Kong, the revolution of our times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: That outburst got him banned from the tournament. Organizers say he broke rules over engaging in an offensive act. But he made his point.
The mass protests have been going on in Hong Kong for four months now. We're seeing an increase in violence, and the city has been thrown into
chaos, parts of it at least. And there doesn't really seem to be a solution in sight.
And that has forced many people from the professional middle class from the professional middle class to look for an exit, as CNN's Will Ripley found
out.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILL RIPLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the Star Ferry in the middle of Victoria Harbor, it's easy to get lost in the lights
and skyscrapers of Hong Kong. But this passenger we'll call Emily says she no longer recognizes the city she calls home.
EMILY, HONG KONG RESIDENT: I think it's a very beautiful city, but we now wonder if this place is for us.
RIPLEY (voice-over): Emily asked us to change her name and she doesn't want to show her face. She grew up in Hong Kong, has a good job and even
got engaged.
RIPLEY: Tell me why you want to hide your face.
EMILY: Nobody could be safe right now.
RIPLEY (voice-over): Emily's afraid she could lose her job or end up arrested like more than a thousand other protestors so far.
EMILY: Maybe I will have children one day. I don't want them to live in a police state.
RIPLEY (voice-over): That fear led Emily and her fiance to scrap their plan to start a family here. They're trying to move to the U.S. or the
U.K.
RIPLEY: And that's a concern, here in Hong Kong, that people like her, with degrees and valuable skills, might want to leave in greater and
greater numbers.
JOHN HU, MIGRATION CONSULTANT: I'm John Hu.
RIPLEY (voice-over): John Hu is a migration consultant. His business is booming.
HU: Since June this year, a number of inquiries have really, you know, increased by threefold.
RIPLEY: So 300 percent since the protests?
HU: Yes, yes. The best visa option.
RIPLEY (voice-over): He says most of his clients are not protestors but professionals, worried about Hong Kong's future, especially for their
children.
HU: They feel that there's less freedom of speech, democracy and they feel that the one country, two systems, they don't have a lot of full confidence
(ph).
RIPLEY (voice-over): One country, two systems goes back to the end of British rule in 1997. China promised Hong Kong a high degree of autonomy
for 50 years. Protestors accuse Beijing of breaking that promise, tightening control over Hong Kong.
Ken (ph) Lui (ph) runs a small store in Mongkok (ph). After 10 years in business, Lui (ph) is preparing to close his doors. He wants to start a
new life, away from Hong Kong.
KEN (PH) LUI (PH) HONG KONG STORE OWNER (through translator): It's been three months now and the government didn't respond to us and we can see how
the police treat us citizens. I feel very sad, reading the news every day. It's hard not to feel sad.
RIPLEY (voice-over): Sadness for a city still undeniably beautiful, yet undeniably broken. Will Ripley, CNN, Hong Kong.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Still to come tonight, a Syrian Kurdish spokesperson joins me, live, as Turkey prepares a military offensive against Kurdish fighters in
norther Syria, stay with us.
[14:29:04]
Plus, a group of 90 former American officials are praising the whistleblower in this open letter, applauding the whistleblowers -- now --
for living up to their responsibility. I'll speak with one of the people who signed that letter. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:30:41]
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Let's turn back now to one of our top stories. Fallout continuing from U.S. President Donald Trump's abrupt
decision to pull troops from Northern Syria ahead of planned Turkish military offensive against British fighters, fighters who were America's
key allies in the fight against ISIS.
Turkey is already moving troops and equipment to its border with Syria. Turkish defense officials say all preparations for their planned air and
ground operation are now completed. We still don't know when, how, where. So many questions. And also we are very interested in hearing from the
Kurds inside Syria.
Joining me now via Skype is a man who leads the Syrian Kurds inside Syria, Salih (ph) Muslim. He is a former co-chair of the Kurdish political party,
the PYD. He's in Qamishli in Syria with more. You are very linked to the SDF, close to these fighting forces. What is your reaction to this Trump
announcement that U.S. boots on the ground would withdraw allowing for a Turkish operation?
SALIH MUSLIM, SPOKESMAN, DEMOCRATIC UNION PARTY: Well, for you and your viewers, really, actually, we were saddened by this decision by Mr. Trump,
really. We are not expecting though. We are not expecting such a decision by on the formal. Especially we had some other business before which they
said we are not going to withdraw our troops from Syria until we finish Daesh, and Daesh is not finished. And Syria to be stabilized, and Syria
not stabilized also. And also political solution hasn't been found yet.
So withdrawing is very dangerous at this time, because maybe the American people and Mr. Trump doesn't know the exact situation of Turkey. We know
them very well. We have experienced them and our (INAUDIBLE) what they have done. What they were doing is not different from the Daesh doing -- I
mean, what the ISIS was doing.
And actually, we feel this fighting is a continuation of the fighting against Daesh, the same mentality, the same procedures until now. Yes?
GORANI: How did you learn of this American decision? Was anybody given advance warning of this before the president issued the statement on Sunday
night? Was this a surprise when everyone came to wake up to this news on Monday morning in Northern Syria among Kurdish fighting factions?
MUSLIM: Well, maybe before the announcing through the media, they called the Democratic Syrian Forces commanders and they told them they are going
to withdraw. And actually, they were withdrawing, and they told them they are withdrawing. And then, of course, we have to -- we were -- I mean,
aware of what they were doing.
And then we learned, I mean, the next day, we learned what they were doing. So it's very dangerous really -- I mean, for Turkey to give them the green
light for -- green light for this invasion. Yes.
[14:35:02]
GORANI: Yes. And Turkey is no fan of you, in particular they say you're linked to the terrorist organizations, what they called the PKK, they call
it a terrorist organization. There is no love lost between you and officials and forces in Turkey.
But what would happen if Turkish forces enter Northern Syria and engage in combat with Kurdish fighters? What will the -- what will they do? How
will they react? Will they even maybe find it in their best interests to ally themselves to the Assad regime or do something along those lines
because they cannot -- they are not a match for the Turkish military?
MUSLIM: Well, actually those forces are not Kurdish forces, they are Democratic Syrian Forces, which they are from all the companies. They are
Kurds, and Arabs, and Syrians, and even Turkman (INAUDIBLE). So it's from the company and the area. So it's not only the Kurdish. I mean,
connecting to the terrorism, this is the Turkish way of announcing.
I mean, everybody who wants n democratic rise and he's just became terrorist in the eyes of Turkey. And maybe we are practicing with the
American soldiers maybe since four years. We were a friend of them. I mean, we were in the same trench fight against Daesh.
They know those people very well and how much they are terrorist or not a terrorist. They know them very well. So I think nobody should listen to
the claims of Turkey what they are saying. I mean, of course, I mean, if they are fighting against the Kurds, we feel that it is not only the
Turkish problem because they are fighting for the democracy which was established in this area.
I mean, among the Arabs, the Kurds, the Syrians, the (INAUDIBLE) which living in here. So they are afraid of this one.
GORANI: And do you feel -- apologies for jumping in. But do you feel betrayed by the United States?
MUSLIM: Well, actually not yet, because withdrawal of some points on the border, it doesn't mean that -- I mean, the Americans or the international
coalition is going to be withdrawn from all of the Syria, because still, we have some other troops and forces are fighting together against ISIS from
other areas Deir ez-Zor (ph) in Raqqa and thousand places. Still, they are fighting side by side.
So I don't know what will happen. But just giving the green light to the Turkey. And, especially, we are not sure of what Turkey is going to do.
He announced in the United Nations in front of everybody that he is going down to Deir ez-Zor to Raqqa, it means it's going to occupy maybe all the
areas which is liberated from ISIS. And their practice -- I mean, we're already their occupying north of Syria in Al-Bab, Jarablus, and maybe Afrin
and the other places.
And our fear is that they are going to bring all these forces, brokers from Idlib, maybe the agreement dependent under Russians and the Iranians to
bring all those brutal from Idlib to this area.
GORANI: There's still -- there's still so many questions there. We really appreciate you joining us from Qamishli. Salih Muslim, a Kurdish
politician with his reaction to this announcement by the White House over the weekend.
Thanks for joining us.
MUSLIM: Thank you.
GORANI: Steven Simon is a former member of the U.S. National Security Council serving on the Obama administration. He's a senior director for
Middle Eastern and North Africa Affairs. He joins me from Waterville in Maine.
We're just speaking with Salih Muhammad who's in Qamishli and essentially said this is going to strengthen ISIS. It'll give ISIS the opportunity to
regroup.
STEVEN SIMON, FORMER MEMBER, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: I think it's potentially a problem. I mean, we'll see what happens. It doesn't look as
though there's going to be a Turkish incursion before President Erdogan visits President Trump next month and they get a chance to talk this over.
So there's time to come up with alternatives, it seems to me, that get around this problem.
GORANI: OK. We're having a few audio problems. I just want to make sure it's going out OK on air. I was having a few issues hearing you. I'm just
going to ask my producer. Is it Ok now, Laura?
[14:40:02]
OK. Sorry. So I need to -- I need you if you could, Steven, to repeat your answer. Do you think that there's a risk here that ISIS will regroup
and strengthen once again with any Turkish operation in Northern Syria?
SIMON: I think there is some risk. If the Turks do invade and engage in combat operations against the Kurds, the Kurds are going to focus on the
immediate threat to their security, which will be the Turks. And I doubt that the Kurds have the energy or the resources to fight a two front war.
So that will create an opportunity for ISIS, if it does come to pass, but it's not clear that the Turks are actually going to go in, an incursion I'm
told has been postponed until President Erdogan and President Trump meet next month.
GORANI: Right. Because the announcement was a surprise to many people by the president. I know there was talk of it in another series of tweets
over the winter that the U.S. would withdraw completely from Syria.
But still, this came as a surprise, because there was so much pushback from his own supporters on Capitol Hill and Washington, and at the Pentagon. So
that being said, we're all confused basically because it sounded as though something imminent was going to take place.
SIMON: Well, I'm not sure myself why anybody would have been surprised because as you recall, President Trump laid down a marker last winter to
the effect that this was something he intended to do. It was put off for a bit.
And in the interim, there were some senior resignations in the United States, General James Mattis resigned, Brett McGurk, U.S. Envoy on ISIS
issues, also resigned. So -- and of course there's a new national security adviser now. So it's not -- it's not surprising to me that this would come
up again as indeed it has. What's astonishing is that --
GORANI: That's surprising to you --
SIMON: -- no one used the intervening -- sorry.
GORANI: No, go ahead. Go ahead.
SIMON: What's astonishing is that no one on the ground over there or in Washington used the intervening 10 months to devise arrangements that could
reassure the Turks and put off the risk of an invasion, a Turkish invasion of Syria.
That astounds me. It's 10 lost months after the president of the United States gave a clear indication of his thinking on this matter.
GORANI: Right. Let me -- let me turn to the letter you co-signed praising the whistleblower. Now, there are reports of a second whistleblower
corroborating with the first one said in his or her complaint.
Where do we stand now do you think on this Ukraine scandal? You know, based on what we know the whistleblower said and what the president himself
is saying publicly.
SIMON: Yes. The whistleblower's claims have been corroborated by other sources, including the White House itself. The transcript of the phone
conversation with Zelensky and documentation surrounding that phone call that's been transmitted to the Hill to Congress.
So there is no question -- or there can't be very much question that the whistleblower's claims are accurate. And there is another whistleblower
coming out or more so would appear.
You know, my own view is that, at this point, the whistleblower's work is done. He or she has said what it is they have to say. And now, it's up to
Congress to use that information in support of an objective and thorough investigation of the claims made by the whistleblower.
GORANI: All right. Steven Simon, thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate your time this evening.
Still to come tonight, the Speaker of the U.K. House of Commons gets emotional in an interview with CNN. We'll tell you why when we return.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:45:30]
GORANI: Well, with the U.K. just weeks away from leaving the E.U., British media are reporting that a Brexit deal is now essentially impossible.
After all of this.
Those comments from a Downing Street source come after a call between German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, and the British Prime Minister, Boris
Johnson, that didn't -- according to reports -- go all that well.
Meanwhile, European Union Council, President Donald Tusk is accusing Mr. Johnson of trying to win a stupid blame game. In a tweet, he said the
future and security of Europe and the U.K. were at stake.
Bianca Nobilo has been following the developments and she's been speaking to one of the key players in the Brexit drama.
And probably, Bianca, one of the people in U.K. politics that around the world our viewers know most, apart from Boris Johnson, and Theresa may, and
that is Speaker of the House of Commons, John Bercow.
BIANCA NOBILO, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. John Bercow with his very recognizable tone shouting order, order, in the chamber, trying to
keep a handle on things. I sat down, spoke to him today, he has announced that he's going to be stepping down on the day that Britain is supposed to
be leaving the European Union.
It's interesting because you mentioned he is such an influential figure in this Brexit process. And I asked him if he ever expected that he would be
-- when he took the job as speaker just 10 years ago -- if it ever occurred to him, he would have such a an influential position in British politics.
He said that that has come as a big surprise to him.
He also dismissed suggestions which had been reported recently in the British media that he could lead a national unity government if Boris
Johnson was brought down. And had some choice words with some Brexiteers. But the moment which stuck out to me is the most profound in the interview
is I presented him with some of the most significant moments that he's overseen in the chamber of the House of Commons.
Some amusing, some triumphant, some which are very him, like when he's exporting the House to be Zen and calm. And then some which were deeply
moving and tragic, in particular the statement that he gave the day after the murder of the Labour M.P., Jo Cox.
Now, of course, her murder is something which has been spoken about many times in the chamber lately, because the tone of Parliament has become so
bitter and angry. And M.P.s on both sides of the House keep mentioning her name. And so I felt like it was something important to discuss with him,
and here's how he responded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BERCOW, U.K. SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS: Any death in such awful circumstances is an outrage and a tragedy. Yet, this death in this manner
of this person, our democratically elected colleague, Jo Cox, is particularly shocking and repugnant.
Well, of course, I remember that still. Very keenly. And the sentiment is very raw. There are many people, Bianca, in the House of Commons who knew
Jo Cox much better than I did. I knew her only from when she was elected in May 2015 for the first time, to when she was brutally murdered.
Thirteen months later, her legacy, you asked me earlier about conduct, behavior, really, Jo was a great exponent of that principle of political
difference, personal and the ability. It should be possible for us as Democrats to disagree agreeably.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[14:50:22]
NOBILO: I must say that even though John Bercow himself, admitted with me today, he is like marmites, and there are very strong opinions about him.
People feel like he's inserted himself into the Brexit process, that he has tried to championing the remain side of things, that he has bene partially
responsible for some of the angry tone within the House of Commons.
And there are evidence -- there's evidence on both sides of that debate. But I must say, interviewing people that moment was incredibly hard to
watch, and deeply authentic. And he did underscore that in his entire time in Parliament, not just a speaker for the last decade, but as an M.P. for
22 years. He's never known the tone in the House of Commons to be this bad, to be this rancorous, and it's obviously something which deeply
unsettles him as he steps down.
GORANI: Right. There's a lot of -- also he's really -- he's been the speaker at a time of great crisis. And I think this also just is
emotionally exhausting. And so when you -- you know, when you showed him that speech that he gave when Jo Cox was murdered -- after she was murdered
in the House of Commons, I think sometimes that triggers things that maybe three years ago or five years ago, it wouldn't have triggered. Because
he's just -- I think people are just exhausted emotionally, aren't they?
NOBILO: They are. And even though people have many criticisms of members of parliament, some entirely justified, some a matter of opinion, it is
definitely true that at the end of the day, everybody is a human being. It takes a massive toll. Sometimes they're in the chamber until after 10:00
at night, that constantly getting pressured from their constituents, from us in the media, from their colleagues. It is very tough and that is not
to, you know, apologize for any of the lack of progress that has happened in parliament. But it does mean that the job is emotionally exhausting --
GORANI: It's definitely a time of crisis and we can all feel it. As we continue to report on it. Thanks very much.
And, Bianca, your program is in two hours and eight minutes and you'll have the full interview. So we look forward to that. Thank you so much.
Still to come this evening --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Drumming up a call to action, climate protests that have swept not just London, but cities around the world. More from Extinction Rebellion,
coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Hundreds of protesters have been arrested now in the first days of worldwide climate protests. Extinction Rebellion's demonstration in London
is the largest across those in 60 cities calling for action on the climate emergency.
Matthew chance was there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Run soil.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Run.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She (INAUDIBLE)
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yet another day of anti- climate change protests, not just here in London, but in cities across the globe. Most become have coordinated mass campaign for environmental
change.
Extinction Rebellion is the grass roots campaign group that's inspiring so many to turn out onto the streets. Calling for a climate emergency to be
declared, for greenhouse gas emissions to be brought to net zero by 2025 and for citizens' assemblies to be formed to consult on environmental
policy.
[14:55:17]
Supporters, and then you can see, there are many of them young, adult, insist that action through peaceful resistance is essential and the only
way that they can get their message of global survival across. Take a listen to some of the passionate voices in this crowd.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are part of the protest because we want the government to take us and the situation more seriously than they are doing.
CHAY HARWOOD, SPOKESMAN, EXTINCTION REBELLION: Now, it's time for government to really step up and put in place real time legislative
measures that not only will combat the climate crisis, but will prepare us for when disaster strikes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know our generation are responsible for this emergency. And we're not going to be here to see what happens eventually.
So we just have to do everything we can while we're still here to protect our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren.
CHANCE: All right. Well, the Extinction Rebellion movements only began last year, but it's already spread in popularity around the world. The
plan two weeks of protests here in London are being repeated elsewhere in Sydney, New York, Madrid, Berlin, Toronto, just a few of the cities where,
as I say, similar protests like this one are being staged.
Of course, there are critics. The tactic of blocking off streets and targeting public transport, it's disrupting the lives of commuters. There
are also lots of public resources being spent from policing the events and processing the hundreds of people who have been detained on public order
charges. There's also debate about what impact this kind of protest will really have on government policy or they all just be ignored.
What many of these protestors say is that the stakes are far too high to worry about the inconvenience their demonstrations cause. The
inconvenience of continued change in the global climate, they say, would be immeasurably greater.
Matthew Chance, CNN, in Central London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Well, the British Prime Minister says he was warned about the protests. Listen to how Boris Johnson described the demonstrators.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: My own team didn't want me to come to this event tonight because they said that there were some uncooperative
crusties and protestors of all kinds littering the road. And they said there was some risk that I would be egged on my way in here.
And so I immediately asked the faint hearts in my private office, what would Margaret Thatcher have done tonight? What would Maggie do?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Not much sympathy for the climate protestors from Boris Johnson.
Thanks for watching. I'm Hala Gorani, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
