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Hala Gorani Tonight
Turkish And Kurdish Forces Fire Upon Each Other; Lev Parnas, Igor Fruman, Andrey Kukushkin Arrested; Boris Johnson And Leo Varadkar Met Today To Discuss Brexit Deal; Turkey Escalates Attacks On U.S.-Allied Kurdish Fighters; House Democrats Preparing Wave Of Subpoenas; NBA Preseason Games In China Go On Despite Controversy; Report: Two-Thirds Of North American Bird Species Could Go Extinct. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired October 10, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:20]
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello, everyone. Live from the CNN Center, I'm Michael Holmes, in for Hala Gorani.
Tonight, Turkey and its allies, capturing border villages now through a ground operation, but the U.N. warns hundreds of thousands of civilians are
in the firing line.
And then, two men charged for campaign finance violations in the U.S. But these aren't just any two men, they have ties to President Trump's lawyer
Rudy Giuliani.
And then, later, a Brexit breakthrough? Find out if the U.K. and Irish leaders have brought us closer to or further from a no-deal Brexit.
Hello, everyone. Turkey, escalating its military offensive in northeastern Syria, vowing to create a buffer zone to prevent what it calls a terror
state along its southern border. Turkish troops are attacking Kurdish fighters for a second day now, the same Kurdish fighters that helped the
U.S. defeat ISIS. And up until now, were still conducting operations to keep ISIS at bay.
Turkish forces and allied Syrian rebels have reportedly captured several villages as they close in on Tal al-Abyad, and Ras al-Ain.
Aid groups warn hundreds of thousands of civilians in northern Syria are now in harm's way. CNN Is live for you on both sides of the border
tonight: our chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward in northern Syria; Nick Paton Walsh, just across the border in Turkey.
Clarissa, let's start with you. The international Committee of the Red Cross says, in the last 24 hours, 60,000 people are reported to have fled
their homes. That is likely just a start. What have you been seeing?
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you said, likely just the start, Michael. We witnessed it with our own eyes
yesterday and again today, wave after wave of civilians trying to get out of areas coming under Turkish strikes with no real sense of where exactly
they should go, where exactly will be safe.
This is a large swathe of territory that Turkish forces are trying to clear, and that makes it very difficult for civilians to know exactly where
they should head.
We were in the town of Tal Abyad for most of the day. A group -- a small group of protestors there, saying that they were going to march right up to
the Turkish border. It didn't take long for that protest to be disbanded by Kurdish forces who said you have to leave, it's too dangerous. There
were mortars coming in from the Turkish side, dotting around the town itself.
We also heard, we should say, Kurdish forces, firing off at least two or three rounds back into Turkey. They were also burning tires to create a
sort of smokescreen over the city, which had largely already been emptied, save this handful of protestors. One could only presume, Michael, those
people are now on the road, looking for safety, not sure where they will be sleeping tonight and not sure when they will be able to return home.
HOLMES: And, Clarissa, what -- where are they headed to? I mean, where are they going to be accommodated?
WARD: We stayed in a town last night called Tal Tamr, and found several dozen families who had happened upon that town and were spending the night
there in people's apartments. You know, this is Syria. People are incredibly hospitable, they open up their homes to people in need.
But obviously, that is not a permanent solution. We haven't seen or heard anything in terms of setting up proper facilities or camps to house all the
people who have been displaced.
And everyone who we talked to, Michael, when we would ask them, where are you going?
The answer would come right back, we don't know.
Cities that people had assumed might be safe, like Qamishli, which is up very close in the northeast corner of the country near the Iraqi border,
people had assumed that that would spared, that that wouldn't be part of an initial offensive. But that's been getting hit steadily as well.
So there is no obvious option for people. And by the way, I should add, Iraqi Kurdish officials, also very concerned because they cannot afford to
take an exodus of Syrian Kurdish refugees if the situation continues to deteriorate -- Michael.
HOLMES: OK. Thanks, Clarissa. Also, Nick Paton Walsh.
We're going to take you to New York now, a news conference under way about the latest moves on the U.S. political front, where there have been a
couple of indictments, suspects tied to Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani. Let's listen in.
[14:05:05]
BILL SWEENEY, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR-IN-CHARGE, FBI NEW YORK FIELD OFFICE: -- report, the FBI arrested Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman on campaign finance-
related charges as they attempted to leave the United States. Andrey Kukushkin was arrested in San Francisco shortly thereafter. David Correia,
the fourth individual charged in today's indictment, is not yet in our custody.
Campaign finance laws exist for a reason. The American people expect and deserve an election process that has not been corrupted by the influence of
foreign interests. And the public has a right to know the true source of campaign contributions.
Laws make up the fabric of who we are as a nation. These allegations are not about some technicality, a civil violation or an error on a form. This
investigation is about corrupt behavior, deliberate lawbreaking.
The FBI takes the obligation to tackle corruption seriously. There are no exceptions to this rule. We gather evidence, we collect facts, and we will
act on them when appropriate.
As Geoff mentioned, our investigation will continue. Many thanks, always, to Geoff and your team of prosecutors here at the Southern District. Thank
you as well to our FBI personnel and our offices in Miami, San Francisco and Washington, D.C. And of course thanks Mike (ph), George (ph), to your
team and the team of agents and professionals who are quiet professionals and solid public servants here in the New York Office. Thank you.
GEOFFREY BERMAN, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: Thank you.
HOLMES: That was short and sweet. This is really getting a lot of buzz in Washington. Let's explain a little more about this story. It could have a
very big impact on the U.S. presidential impeachment investigation.
The two men who are in court this hour, they are connected to Trump's lawyer, his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani's attempt to dig up dirt on
former Vice President Joe Biden. Now, what they're charged with is funneling illegal foreign political contributions into the United States.
It's illegal. Two other men are also named in the indictment, and that is fascinating as well.
To break it down for us, let's go to senior U.S. Justice Correspondent, Evan Perez. OK, tell us about the importance of these two men and how they
figure in the ongoing impeachment inquiry.
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Michael, now they are going to be central characters in the impeachment inquiry. You have to
believe that the Democrats who are doing this investigation are going to want to hear more about what they know.
We know, for instance, that Rudy Giuliani has said publicly that these two men helped connect him with Ukrainians who were trying to help dig up some
of this dirt, this political dirt, these allegations that Rudy Giuliani says showed there was corruption involved -- involving Joe Biden, the
former vice president, as well, his son, doing business in Ukraine.
Those allegations, by the way, have not been brought -- have not found any substance to them. As a matter of fact, Ukrainian officials have said that
they don't believe there was anything that was done wrong by Hunter Biden.
It doesn't matter, though, because the president of the United States firmly believes them, and he was pressing the Ukrainian government to do
more to investigate this. And, again, that's the central part of the drama here in Washington, the political drama that is ongoing.
These two men, Igor Fruman and Lev Parnas, were essentially clients of Rudy Giuliani. They were helping to orchestrate some of this. And at the same
time, according to these allegations in the indictment today in New York, they were essentially doing business, they were trying to funnel money from
clients or people outside of the United States in Ukraine, Russian businesspeople as well, that was making its way into U.S. campaigns which,
as you pointed out, is strictly forbidden.
HOLMES: Now, the other thing, too, that's curiouser and curiouser about this, there's also the allegation that they were involved in the effort to
remove the U.S. ambassador in Kiev.
PEREZ: Right. Right, exactly. And that's actually another fascinating side story. It's central to this part of these -- this indictment.
According to this indictment, these men essentially helped raise money for a congressman in Texas, his name is Pete Sessions.
And a lot of us were puzzled when Pete Sessions -- he's no longer in Congress -- sent a letter, public letter, saying that this ambassador,
Marie Yovanovitch, was supposed -- he thought should be removed.
It turns out that there was a broader operation. They, these two men, Fruman and Parnas, were working on this on behalf of Ukrainian clients,
according to the prosecutors. But we know that Rudy Giuliani was also pushing for this, and he went and interceded with the president of the
United States.
We know that Trump personally removed her from her post -- she's a career diplomat -- and, again, it's a very strange thing, for the president of the
United States to get involved with the -- with a Ukrainian ambassador, but that's what happened.
[14:10:03]
And so, again, the question that will be raised is, how much of this is tied into the business that Rudy Giuliani was doing with these men in
Ukraine, and how much of this ends up affecting the president of the United States, how much of this did he know.
HOLMES: I mean, the question in all of these things is always, you know, follow the money. And there are various --
PEREZ: Right.
HOLMES: -- individuals described in this. The indictment describes a lot of money flowing through these men to those U.S. campaigns. Where's it
coming from?
PEREZ: Exactly. I mean, there was -- these men helped orchestrate hundreds of thousands of dollars that went to a political action committee
that was benefiting President Trump. We see mention in these documents, for instance, that they appear and they're raising money for a candidate in
Nevada who was doing a rally, which President Trump attended. So there's a lot of intersection with Trump and with other important Republican
candidates.
The money was coming from Ukrainians, from Russians, according to this indictment. There's a lot of money that was being brought in, and it was
all being hidden, essentially, under false names, according to this court document.
HOLMES: Evan Perez, breaking it down for us. Appreciate it, Evan.
PEREZ: Sure.
HOLMES: We'll check in with you as developments come in, as they surely will.
Let's now go to CNN legal analyst, former U.S. federal prosecutor Michael Zeldin. Great to have you at this moment. The significance of this, what
do you make of it?
MICHAEL ZELDIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So in a very narrow sense, these are four individuals who are charged with campaign finance violations. That
is, they're foreign nationals and they're not allowed to make any contributions to presidential candidate, a congressional candidate, a
political action committee or the inaugural committee of a president. And they seem to have done those things.
And so, standing alone, this is a significant independent campaign finance violation. However, it's hard to look at this in isolation because Rudy
Giuliani is at the center of this, in that these two men that were indicted and charged in Virginia, Parnas and Lev, are people who Giuliani used as
part of his investigative team to dig up dirt on Hunter Biden and his company and Vice President Biden.
And so the intersection makes it too juicy to not think that these things are connected in some way. The indictment, however, doesn't say that yet.
HOLMES: The president, you know, this is the other thing we were just talking about with Evan Perez, there, about these men were also perhaps
involved in trying to get the ambassador to Kiev removed, who was seen by some, who wanted the investigation into the Bidens to continue, to be
problematic for resisting it.
The president's involvement in any of that, trying to get rid of an ambassador in Ukraine in this fashion, the extraordinary nature of that.
ZELDIN: It is extraordinary. And it, again, is what brings it back to or though Giuliani. Giuliani is endeavoring to give the president information
that will be helpful to his 2020 re-election campaign. They view the U.S. ambassador to the Ukraine as an impediment to obtaining that. She appears
to have been resistant to private individuals conducting foreign policy in the country that she was an ambassador to.
Yet, now, we see Giuliani and these alleged campaign finance violators, causing her removal and her removal was done by the president. So it makes
his claim of -- you know, sort of, I wasn't aware, you know, plausible deniability, all that stuff is completely undermined by this investigation.
So it puts him sort of in a state of knowledge or awareness about what was going on in Ukraine with his emissary Giuliani.
HOLMES: It's typing the web, you know, from point A to point B, that's going to be crucial here. I mean, Giuliani said he was working on his own,
then he was working as the president's personal attorney, and then he was working at the behest of the State Department. How fraught is his own
position, going forward, Giuliani?
ZELDIN: Well, he doesn't have a position, as you just outlined. He has had, already, three positions and probably additional positions are
forthcoming. What it appears to me to be is, Giuliani believes that the Bidens are corrupt, and that the Ukrainians helped the Democratic National
Committee in the 2016 election, and that none of this stuff has seen the light of day because of the corrupt media.
And so he is going to be a single individual out there to reveal the truth. And he has these Ukrainians who are helping him. The theories that he's
promoting seem to have been debunked, but he's going at it full-bore and he seems to have enlisted the president's, you know, agreement to allow him to
do this.
[14:15:09]
And now we're seeing the consequences of it in one aspect of it, which is foreign nationals making political contributions to the president's re-
election, and the removal of that ambassador by the president at the behest, it seems, of Giuliani and his cohorts.
HOLMES: These two men, Parnas and Fruman, they actually had dinner with the president, back in 2018, May, I think it was, in 2018. And there are
photographs of them, sitting at a table with Donald Trump Jr. I mean, how to make -- I mean, do those links create any sort of thoughts in your mind,
as separate from these charges?
ZELDIN: Well, it certainly is a pot calling the kettle black, when these people are calling the Bidens corrupt. I mean, maybe they know corruption
from their own personal well-being.
The appearances here are just terrible, that these people are trying to promote their own personal interests, they're doing this through illegal
campaign contributions by virtue of their donations, of being given a seat at the table. And it seems that, in part, their wishes have come true with
respect to the removal of the ambassador and their continuing influence with the president, either directly or through Giuliani.
It's -- if it's not criminal beyond this, it is certainly an appearance that's unacceptable and the president should be horrified if he's not
complicit.
HOLMES: Legal analyst and former U.S. federal prosecutor Michael Zeldin, always good to have your expertise on something like this. We'll check in
with you later. Thank you very much.
ZELDIN: Thank you.
HOLMES: Fascinating developments.
All right, we're going to take a break here on the program. When we come back, a sign of hope for keeping a Brexit deal alive, following a meeting
between the leaders of the U.K. and Ireland.
Also, German Jews targeted on the holiest day of the Jewish calendar. The steps Germany's government is taking to combat the threat of anti-Semitism.
It is a very real threat in Germany.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: Welcome back. Boris Johnson's Brexit plans, thrown a bit of a lifeline today. The British and Irish prime ministers, both agreeing they,
quote, "could see a pathway to a possible deal."
Mr. Johnson hosted Leo Varadkar in Cheshire to revive any hopes of getting Europe on board with his plans. They did release a joint statement after
their lunch, saying discussions were constructive.
Nic Robertson, our international diplomatic editor, joins us now from Liverpool in England. Good to see you, Nic. Chances of a breakthrough?
Or are we at a point of, it's a case of the least worst option, please?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes. Look, I mean, where we were at the beginning of the week, there was a blame game going on
and it really looked like talks were stalling. And this, I think people saw this as a sort of a last-ditch effort. If they couldn't close some
ground here, then really, the chances of getting a Brexit deal done by the October 31st deadline, they seemed pretty slender.
[14:20:16]
So, you know, the Irish prime minister, the Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, came out of this sounding quite positive, he said it had gone really well,
things were at a very sensitive stage. But it was promising, that progress had been made. And he did say that, actually, you know, this path to a
possible deal could be achieved by the end of the month.
But then he went on to say, look, there's many a slip between cup and lip, and not all these things are under my control, which really gave you the
understanding, there, that this is not a massive breakthrough, but it just keeps the train on track for right now, if you will.
Look, the big issues of concern here are customs, whether or not Northern Ireland is going to be in the Customs Union with the European Union or not,
and whether or not the people of Northern Ireland will get a say on any kind of final Brexit deal.
So those are the two big issues, and they're far from ironed out. But it seems we're at a slightly better place. But, you know, we've heard from
the Irish prime minister, we've heard from that joint statement, but we really haven't heard Boris Johnson's version of how this went -- Michael.
HOLMES: Yes. I mean, and the thing is, everyone knows the clock is ticking. I mean, this -- do you get a sense that anyone really believes a
deal, a decent deal can be done literally by the end of the month? How might these next few weeks play out?
ROBERTSON: They're going to play out roughly this way. Look, what was achieved today, you know, the joint statement said, means that there will
be talks between essentially the chief British negotiator and the chief E.U. negotiator. So that's the process going on.
But, really, it was by Friday this week that there was supposed to be an agreement on what was going to be agreed. Next week, you were going to
have the heads of the 27 other E.U. nations coming together in a summit, and they were going to validate that agreement that was done by tomorrow.
And then, two weeks later, you know, everything would be in place and Brexit would happen.
Look, that schedule just is not on track by any stretch of the imagination. And to be frank, I don't think anyone is holding their breath, really, that
a deal can be done by the end of the month.
But, you know, what you're seeing this (ph) -- any negotiation -- and I think, Michael, you've covered so many of these as well -- any negotiation,
neither side wants to be seen to be the one that's walking away from the deal. Boris Johnson has said, look, come 31st of October, if there isn't a
deal that we can agree, then I am going to walk away, then it will be a no- deal.
But the positioning of both sides, not to be -- appear to be the ones that are sort of collapsing this along the way, that seems to be important. And
I think what we saw today was the Irish -- you know, for the E.U., if you will, presenting themselves in that position of saying, look, we can do it.
It is possible. And Boris Johnson signed up to that joint statement, so it's still in play. But let's say (ph) only just.
HOLMES: Yes. If it's realistically in play or, as you point out, everyone's just trying to avoid the blame if it happens. Nic Robertson in
Liverpool, good to see you my friend, thank you.
All right. Now, let's turn our attention to Germany, where the government says the threat of anti-Semitism is high. Security, being increased in
several Jewish communities after two people were killed outside a synagogue and then a kebab shop in the city of Halle. It happened on Yom Kippur, the
holiest day in the Jewish calendar.
Police arresting the 27-year-old alleged gunman, whose motive is becoming more clear, as CNN's Melissa Bell reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Flowers and candles left in tribute this Thursday morning, just outside the door that saved so many lives on
Wednesday. It was just beyond it, inside the synagogue, that more than 50 people had gathered to mark Yom Kippur. It was a security system,
installed here, on that door several years ago, that prevented Stephan B. from carrying out his plan and getting inside the synagogue.
BELL (voice-over): The security system, however, could not save the woman he shot just outside.
These pictures, caught by eyewitnesses, show the attack as it unfolded on the streets of Halle on Wednesday. CNN is not showing the video captured
by the assailant himself and livestreamed on the video streaming site Twitch. It clearly shows the gunman's frustration with his malfunctioning
weapons.
The condemnation of German leaders was swift, with a prosecutor saying that the gunman had clearly intended to cause a massacre. The German president
visited the synagogue on Thursday.
FRANK-WALTER STEINMEIER, PRESIDENT OF GERMANY (through translator): It is not enough to just condemn such a cowardly attack. It is clear that the
state is responsible for its Jewish communities in Germany.
And it is equally clear that the entire society must take a (ph) stand (ph) in this, show solidarity with the Jewish citizens in our country. As the
citizens of Halle did last night, and will continue to be doing. And we must show our solidarity, not only on days and events like this.
[14:25:03]
BELL (voice-over): A vigil was also held outside the synagogue this Thursday, with some of those who had been inside returning to the scene.
They described 10 terrifying minutes before the police arrived.
JEREMY BOROWITZ, WORSHIPER: The truth is, in the moment, you don't really have time to feel, you just react. And I think that's what we did, we
reacted. And it's only today that I think we're really able to really start feeling.
BELL: This is the kebab shop, just a few hundred yards from the synagogue where Stephan B.'s rampage ended, and where he killed his second victim.
What the livestreaming of his attack shows is at once his clear anti- Semitic motivation and his frustration at his inability to do as much harm as he'd hoped.
Melissa Bell, CNN, Halle.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: We're going to take a short break, here on the program. When we come back, the U.S. military has taken custody of these two high-profile
ISIS fighters. But officials are concerned there are thousands of other ISIS terrorists who could soon be released in northern Syria.
Also, Ukraine's president, weighing in on that July phone call with Donald Trump. We'll tell you what he's saying when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: U.S. officials say the military has taken custody of two high- profile ISIS fighters. They gained attention as part of a British cell of ISIS members known as the Beatles.
Sources telling CNN there are plans to bring the two members to the U.S. for prosecution, but they are just two of the ISIS fighters being held in
prisons in northern Syria, the same area where Turkey is now launching that offensive. There are an estimated 11,000 ISIS fighters in custody.
U.S. officials, concerned that many of those terrorists could escape as this offensive continues.
Joining us now is our CNN Military Analyst, retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. Always a pleasure to see you, sir. You know, we're hearing that
the Turks might want to have a more extended campaign than first thought. I'm curious how surprised you were when the president made what appears to
have been a shock (ph), unilateral decision to leave the Kurds exposed like this.
MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes. I was very shocked, Michael. Probably, like many of my military colleagues, both active and retired.
You know, I'd have to bring up the name of General Joe Votel, who was commander of CENTCOM and actually was given the mission, several years ago,
to stand up the security forces along with his colleague, General Tony Thomas, who was the Special Operations Command commander.
[14:30:01]
Both of those individuals are retired, they retired over the last several months. But between them and Ambassador Brett McGurk, I personally believe
they did a phenomenal job in putting together a force that would fight ISIS.
And recalling back a few years ago, there were a lot of naysayers that said that that could never be done. It was done and it was very successful. So
getting back to your question, how shocked was I? Very shocked because this had gone well for several years. They had -- they had, in fact,
defeated not destroyed ISIS, but they had defeated a good portion of the caliphate and put a real dent in their operational plans.
But with the number of detainees from ISIS that were in prison, I'm very concerned that many of them will be freed. That there will be a generation
of new fighters to link with the hundreds of millions of dollars in cash that they already have to support the organization and we could certainly
see an ISIS 2.0 very shortly.
HOLMES: Yes. As a result of this, which is extraordinary to contemplate, not the mention the president's rationale that the Kurds didn't help in
Normandy for heaven's sake.
I wanted you to speak to the erosion of American global influence that this will bring. But also trust when it comes to allies. I mean, you and I
both worked in the field with Kurdish fighters.
And let's not forget the end of the Persian Gulf War. The United States called for a rebellion, then allowed Saddam Hussein to crush the
insurgence.
HERTLING: Right.
HOLMES: And here we are, the U.S. doing it again in a way.
HERTLING: Yes, and that's a long history and it's very unfortunate. There have been many books and papers written about that. And I was a part of
the first Persian Gulf War in 1991 when that occurred. And over the next several years, we had to provide the safe zone in Northern and Southern
Iraq to prevent attacks against the Shia marshes in the south and Kurdish enclaves in the north.
The Kurds have suffered a lot. They have had many instances, not only with the Iraqi government, but now in the Syrian government and the Turkish
government.
Now, the Turkish government does have a reason for concern about their internal security. There have been terrorist Kurdish organizations that
had been attacking Turkey, but these fighters were not truthfully a part of that over the last several years. They have been very good partners in the
fight against ISIS.
And I think what you're seeing is both sides going at each other. And in the past, the United States forces in the area have been able to provide
the buffer and the deterrence for one attacking the other in many cases. And unfortunately, now you're going to see all hell break loose,
truthfully, in terms of that security zone that Turkey is invading right now.
HOLMES: That's an important point to make. The PKK inside Turkey's border versus the YPG in Syria. You've got Peshmerga fighters, of course, in
northern Iraq as well.
The other thing here is that, you know, Russia and Iran benefit enormously from this, too. So why would the U.S. do something that benefits
adversaries like Iran and Russia and indeed enemies like ISIS? What's in it for the U.S. to do this?
HERTLING: I don't know truthfully other than adhere into a campaign promise perhaps. But it certainly isn't in the realm of global or national
security in this case. There may be a short-term solution related to this of getting forces, as the president said, getting forces out of wars that
we didn't want to be in.
But truthfully, Michael, we both know why those wars have continued. It is a security environment against a continuing radical Islamist threat and it
does continue on. And we're going to see recurrence of this if you just kind of throw up your hands and say we're leaving.
And you can't just delegate it to someone else's country's -- some other area, because it does tend to proceed all over the globe. We're going to
see -- you know, going back to your question though, I think a lot of people are concluding that there didn't seem to be a whole lot of strategic
thought behind this. There certainly wasn't the coordination with allies, especially those in NATO and the European Union in terms of what might
happen next.
And Turkey seems to be going this alone and being given, you know, hands off as they continue these attacks. Specifically on the Russian front
though, I think you're going the see Russia soon join with the Syrian forces in the southern part of this security zone to back up what's coming
in from the north and that is the Turkish forces.
So you're going to see a NATO ally working with a NATO foe, that is Russia, that's been expanding throughout Europe, and in an area that only provides
good things for Russia and good things for Syria, and perhaps, denigrates the security for the rest of both the continent and the Middle East.
HOLMES: And there's another player, too, that I want to get to in just a moment. But first, I should say that the U.S. ambassador to the U.N. did
come out and say that the president has made abundantly clear the U.S. has not in any way endorsed the decision of the government of Turkey to mount
this operation.
[14:35:09]
However, I mean he knew what would happen if the U.S. pulled out on the Turks are saying that the president was well aware of their plans.
I wanted to ask you this. So it was a tiny U.S. presence in Northern Syria. It did, however, a lot of good. It was in many ways, a
geographical block to Tehran. This is something that has concerned Israel for a long time. And this move by the U.S. president, in some ways, gives
Iran almost a clear run on the ground of friendly territory from its borders into Lebanon, its allies there, Hezbollah. Israel is not going to
be happy about this.
HERTLING: No, they certainly aren't. And again, you're exactly right. And that's what many military commanders of my generation have learned over
the last several years that it's critically important to build -- it's a term we use, building partner capacity. Let other people fight the wars on
their turf with assistance from the United States military and from coalition militaries. We have done that successfully after failing
miserably by sending an all-in force into both Iraq and Afghanistan.
When you start building the capacity of other nations that want to get rid of some of the evil within their boundaries, it works very well. My last
several years in the military, Michael, was almost exclusively geared toward, how do we build better partners, how do we build better alliances,
first of all, because we can't -- we can no longer fight alone to instill freedom of movement, freedom of maneuver, Democratic priorities, whatever
you want to call it.
You always have to fight with an alliance. So we were building alliances all over the world to help us proclaim these Democratic virtues and values.
Now, I think unfortunately, as a result of this campaign and some of the conversations going back and forth, we're going to see as turning our back
on a very valuable partner, the Kurds in Northern Iraq and Northern Syria and other people are going to take note of this and it's going to harm, I
think, the United States coordination with other countries for a very long time.
HOLMES: Yes. Be that in parts of Asia or Africa or elsewhere, who's going to trust the U.S.
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time.
HERTLING: Thank you, Michael.
HOLMES: Well, Donald Trump's decision to order those U.S. troops to the sidelines ahead of Turkey's offensive did something rare in Washington,
uniting many Republicans and Democrats in fierce opposition to the move and the president threw fuel on the fire by saying this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now, the Kurds are fighting for their land. Just so you understand, they're fighting for their land.
And as somebody wrote in a very, very powerful article today, they didn't help us in the Second World War, they didn't help us with Normandy as an
example.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: The Kurds actually did fight in the Second World War on the side of the allies in Iraq and played a crucial role in that.
But this not the first time the Kurds have been abandoned by the U.S. Arwa Damon with that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): History has often been unkind to the Kurds, a cycle of repeated betrayals.
When the U.S.-led coalition expelled Saddam Hussein's forces from Kuwait in 1991, then-President H.W. Bush encouraged the Iraqi people to oust the
dictator altogether.
GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There's another way for the bloodshed to stop, and that is for the Iraqi military and the
Iraqi people to take matters into their own hands, to force Saddam Hussein, the dictator, to step aside.
DAMON: In response, Iraq's Kurds rose up against Saddam, but when his elite forces advanced north, the Kurds got no help. Millions fled to the
mountains, and many others were slaughtered trying to resist.
During the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, the Kurds were again enthusiastic allies, assisting American and British forces in their drive
to Baghdad.
When ISIS swept through Iraq, Kurdish resistance was crucial in keeping the militants at bay.
In Syria, the U.S. turned to the Kurds there, the YPG, as key allies, the main ground force that led the liberation of Raqqah, ISIS's headquarters.
But in both Iraq and Syria, the Kurds have been allies of convenience, deserted when no longer needed in the geopolitical chessboard.
Last year, the U.S. stood by while the Iraqi military drove the Kurds back from territory they held during the fight against ISIS.
MASOUD BARZANI, FORMER PRESIDENT OF IRAQI KURDISTAN (through translator): We thought that the people who were verbally telling us they were our
friends and would support us, that they would have supported us, or if not, stay silent.
DAMON: Now, it's Syria's Kurds that face attack by Turkish forces as U.S. troops pull back. Turkey sees the Kurds as terrorists, allied to the
insurgents in its own Kurdish areas. The modest U.S. presence has deterred a Turkish incursion and held the Syrian regime at bay. But President Trump
has repeatedly threatened to pull U.S. forces out of Syria.
[14:40:07]
TRUMP: Let the other people take care of it now. Very soon, very soon, we're coming out.
DAMON: Again, in December last year, he announced U.S. forces were withdrawing, tweeting --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "We have defeated ISIS in Syria, my only reason for being there during the Trump presidency."
DAMON: On both occasions, advisers persuaded the president to change course. But now, he has given Turkey the green light to cross the border,
in a move that stunned even his closest allies at home.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): If he follows through with this, it'd be the biggest mistake of his presidency.
DAMON: The Kurds themselves are separating the president from the people. The spokesman of the Syrian Democratic Forces, Mustafa Bali, tweeting --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Despite the president's decision to pave the way for Turkish invasion, American people are true friends of the SDF."
DAMON: The Kurds have made it clear they'll divert forces currently guarding ISIS prisoners to the front lines, with possibly dangerous
consequences. Unsure of what their ally intends, they will, as they have done so often, fight for their very existence.
Arwa Damon, CNN, Istanbul.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: Well, Ukraine's president says there was no blackmail at all in a phone call he had with the U.S. President Donald Trump in July. That
helped flacked the impeachment inquiry, of course.
Volodymyr Zelensky says the U.S. didn't supply any information or an election interference or corruption allegations regarding a natural gas
company, Burisma.
CNN Sam Kiley was at that news conference in Kiev earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Have you had any details? Have the U.S. -- has Mr. Trump --
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: No, USA didn't give me -- USA gave me nothing. Gave me nothing any details on Burisma and any detail --
I didn't get any details about involved to your elections, their previous elections.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: Now, CNN is learning that a Trump political appointee was involved in freezing aid to Ukraine despite concern from career officials.
CNN's Sara Murray joins us now with the latest of all of this. You've been reporting this on cnn.com. How concerning was it to career budget official
that a political appointee was signing these documents?
SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the biggest concern for career budget officials was the fact that this freeze was happening at all.
I mean, sources are telling us that they were afraid to be the ones who put their names on this decision to free the aid because they were worried they
might be running a following of the law by blocking this money from going out, after Congress had already appropriated it.
So then this Trump political appointees stepped in and signed the documents and congressional investigators who are leading this impeachment inquiry
had taken notice of that saying, you know, this raises red flags, this is not how things are usually done.
HOLMES: OK. Now, when we talk about where the impeachment inquiry is going, I think it's interesting to listen to the Republican strategy.
Particularly some fierce opponents of what's happening now, how they were a few years ago in different times. Let's play that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE POMPEO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The president didn't turnover all the documents in response to a congressional subpoena, and that's just
unacceptable.
We need to make sure that this administration doesn't cover up, doesn't deny, and doesn't withhold.
It's deeply part of the American tradition and our constitution that the Congress perform this oversight.
GRAHAM: Article Three of impeachment against Richard Nixon, the article was based on the idea that Richard Nixon, as president, failed to comply
with subpoenas of Congress. The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day that he was subject to impeachment because he took the
power from Congress.
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This business of high crimes and misdemeanors goes to the question of whether or not the person
serving as president of the United States put their own interest, their personal interest, ahead of public service.
TREY GOWDY, FORMER CONGRESSMAN OF SOUTH CAROLINA: The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress, no matter whether you're
the party in power or not in power, is wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: Hypocrisy is not unusual in politics, but you had some key Republicans back in the day saying the exact opposite of what they say
today. When it comes to the Democrat strategy on this inquiry, how are they planning to deal with the stone walling?
MURRAY: Well, I think that they're figuring that out right now. I mean, one option is to put forth subpoenas for people that they voluntarily
requested information on. The other is to move forward with witnesses that are no longer in the Trump administration, and therefore, might have more
freedom to provide testimony, to provide depositions.
But then they're going to have to make a more crucial decision about how they want to move forward. They're going to have to decide if they want to
have a formal impeachment inquiry vote, which is very politically risky. And it also might not get them what they want. You still might have
Republicans and the White House saying they still don't think that this is a valid investigation.
[14:45:02]
The other option is that they could start taking this administration to court. They could leave it up to the third branch of government in the
U.S., the judicial system, to make a call on whether this administration has to turn over documents. And so far, they haven't exercised that power
yet.
HOLMES: Yes. And a lot on the Democrat side fear that that would just mean months in court, and then all of a sudden, oh, there's an election.
Sara, thank you so much. Good to see you. Sara Murray there.
And we have to take another break here on the program. When we come back, an NBA preseason game takes place in Shanghai despite those tensions
between the NBA and China. We'll have that more when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: High level U.S.-China trade talks are underway in Washington in the hope of preventing further escalation of what has been a damaging trade
war. But tensions increased this week when the White House blacklisted Chinese firms and put visa restrictions on Chinese officials.
Still, there is some optimism. The U.S. president saying he will meet with the Chinese vice premier tomorrow. Now, these trade talks come as the
Brooklyn Nets defeated the Los Angeles Lakers in the NBA preseason game in Shanghai. That game went on as scheduled despite threats to cancel the
match.
All of these tensions coming after an NBA general manager tweeted support for pro-democracy protestors in Hong Kong.
CNN's David Culver was standing by as players and fans left the stadium.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID CULVER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on-camera): The game that almost wasn't officially took place, and it certainly had a packed house
inside the Mercedes-Benz stadium. You can see just behind me here.
And the players are just starting to leave. They're also greeted by a few hundred fans. We look over here, you can actually see several police
trying block off a barrier there. And behind that barrier, you've got very eager Chinese fans hoping to just catch a glimpse of the players in the bus
as they drive past.
It would just be for a few seconds that they would actually see them. But it's interesting to see that. It was interesting to be inside the stadium
for the game, because despite the geopolitical crisis that we're seeing surrounding the relationship between the NBA and China, one that is really
just in a difficult situation right now.
Despite all of that, inside that stadium in the moment of the game, you didn't feel any of the larger picture, so to speak. Just felt the
excitement. You felt the joy from fans and they seemed to filter out politics, if you will.
Now, you also though saw in there, fans wearing memorabilia, jerseys, and also carrying Chinese flags and it appears those were handed out as they
were headed in. We talked to one fan. He essentially said, you know, he's there for LeBron James, that's why he was there. The Laker's star. That's
what drew him in. And at the same time, he's got a love for country. And he said, I can't ignore that.
[14:50:07]
And so it seemed like a mix of patriotism and yet fandom that filled inside of there. The question is going forward though, what's the reality of
repairing that relationship?
We know that Adam Silver, the NBA commissioner, is here in Shanghai. He canceled the pregame press conference. We know that the press conferences
with the players that were supposed to be taking place right after the game is which they normally do, likewise, canceled.
That suggests that there is great concern over any word being taken out of context and adding to what is already a deteriorating relationship. So
they're trying to seemingly contain that for now. But at some point, the players and the leadership of the NBA are going to have to speak. And it's
not clear if when they speak, if it'll be after a repaired relationship with China.
China, as of now, still feeling pretty hurt as they have put it. But the fans, they showed up. No question.
David Culver, CNN, Shanghai.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: At another game in Japan, the postgame news conference was a little tense, really. The Rockets public relations team quickly shutting
down CNN anchor, Christina Macfarlane for daring to ask a question about the NBA's ongoing standoff with China. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, CNN ANCHOR: The NBA has always been a league that prides itself on its players and its coaches being able to speak out openly
about political and societal affairs. I just wonder after the events of this week and the fallout we've seen, whether you would both feel
differently about speaking out in that way in the future?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Excuse me, we're taking the basketball questions only.
MACFARLANE: It's a legitimate question. This is an event that's happened this week during the NBA.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's already been answered.
MACFARLANE: This particular question has not been answered. James.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Any other questions?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: Awkward. Later, the team told CNN the players did not answer the question because they had already answered it several times.
All right. Quick break here on the program. When we come back, three degrees might not sound like much, but when it comes to climate, it could
spell disaster for many North American birds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: Climate change protests continue all around the world. Extinction Rebellion activists kicking off what they said would be two weeks of global
demonstrations on Monday.
At London City airport today, one protestors got one top of a plane, and then another plane returned to the gate after a protester started giving a
speech in the passenger cabin.
Now, across the ocean, climate change protestors tied up traffic in New York's busy Times Square, as you can see there.
Meanwhile, a new report warning that nearly two-thirds of the bird species in North America could go extinct if global warming hits that throw degree
mark. Bill Weir reports from Tampa, Florida.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From the Baltimore oriole to the golden eagle, from the songbirds in your backyard
to America's rarest heron fishing in Tampa Bay, our fine-feathered friends are in deep trouble.
MARK RACHAL, MANAGER, AUDUBON SANCTUARY MANAGER: At this site, there used to be 50 to 60 nesting piers. This was only about 15 years ago. And now,
we're down to about five to eight piers.
[14:55:02]
WEIR: After a recent study found that the U.S. and Canada lost nearly three billion birds just since the 70s, Audubon scientists took the latest
climate models and looked into the future of over 600 species.
WEIR (on camera): So this is not a development comes into a grassland and ruins the nesting grounds. This is that places on earth get too warm for
these species, so they have to either move or go extinct.
BROOKE BATEMAN, AUDUBON SENIOR CLIMATE SCIENTIST: Exactly. So it's a combination of changes in temperature, precipitation, and vegetation.
WEIR (voice-over): Brooke Bateman was the lead scientist, and found that if humanity keeps warming the planet at the current rate, almost two-thirds
of the North American birds, they studied, could be driven to extinction.
And as they try to survive, many species, like the common loon, will fly north and never come back.
BATEMAN: This is a bird that I just -- I went home, in my second grade, and I wrote a report about it. And to this day, it's been a special bird
for me.
Last year, I brought my 5-year-old daughter and we went and we sat on the lake and she got to hear the loon for the first time. And it's like magic.
You see it on her face.
And its range is going to completely shift out of the U.S. in the future, with climate change. So you'll no longer be able to go to that same place
and hear that bird call anymore.
WEIR: But more alarming than a loss of pretty songs and colors is what birds like the common robin are telling us about the speed of climate
change.
BATEMAN: People usually think of robins as the sign of spring -- oh, the robins are back. But robins are actually overwintering in a lot of places
more frequently than they used to and not leaving at all.
WEIR (on camera): So it's a different kind of harbinger now.
BATEMAN: Yes.
WEIR: If the robin is hanging out in December --
BATEMAN: Yes.
WEIR: -- something's wrong.
BATEMAN: Something's wrong. And that's the thing. Birds are indicators, birds tell us. They're the ones that are telling us what's going on in the
environment.
WEIR: Yes.
BATEMAN: And so, we say, at Audubon, that birds tell us it's time to act.
WEIR (voice-over): And if humanity can act fast enough and somehow hit the carbon-cutting targets of the Paris Accord, she says 75 percent of the most
vulnerable species could survive.
WEIR (on camera): You have kids, do you?
RACHAL: I do, I have three young girls.
WEIR: Do you think these species will still be around when they're your age?
RACHAL: I do, I do.
WEIR: You do?
RACHAL: I think -- I think the habitat may be a little bit different, but I'm hopeful.
WEIR (voice-over): Mark has been working to protect Tampa Bay for over a dozen years and has seen firsthand how even a casual love of birds can
inspire positive action. Even the managers of that coal-fired power plant are Audubon supporters, he tells me.
But while it was the canary that warned coal miners of invisible doom back in the day, these days it seems that birds of all shapes and sizes are
being forced to do the same.
Bill Weir, CNN, Tampa Bay.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: Extremely worrying stuff. Bill Weir there.
Now, thanks for watching the program tonight. I'm Michael Holmes. Do stay with CNN. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
