Return to Transcripts main page

Hala Gorani Tonight

Senate Considering Lengthy Impeachment Trial; FBI Official Investigated For Misconduct; Prince Andrew Steps Down From Public Duties; CNN Reveals New Accusations Against Pedophile Priest; Cape Town Entrepreneur Creates Edible Bowls; Activists Rally Against Murders Of Women; WSJ: USAG Hid Investigation Of Nassar From Simone Biles. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired November 22, 2019 - 14:00   ET



LYNDA KINKADE, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello, everyone. Live from the CNN Center, I'm Lynda Kinkade in for HALA GORANI TONIGHT. Good to be with you.

Well, Donald Trump is lashing out after a week of bombshells. We're live on Capitol Hill and the White House to find out what's next in the

impeachment inquiry.

Then, charities have been dropping Prince Andrew's projects all week, so no amount of damage control seems to stop the fallout from the royal's

controversial interview.

And later, everyone's talking about Tesla's troubles after the company's latest big reveal became an epic fail.

Well, as one crucial phase of the U.S. impeachment inquiry comes to an end, Democrats and Republicans on Capitol Hill are getting ready for the next

steps, in deciding the future of Donald Trump's presidency.

Now, testimony by 12 witnesses in two weeks of public hearings provided clear evidence that Mr. Trump and his aides pressured Ukraine in an attempt

to extract political favors.

And we repeatedly heard there was indeed a quid pro quo. But the House seems as divided as ever, right along party lines, on whether this

constitutes an impeachable offense.

TEXT: Impeachment Timeline: Now, House Intelligence Committee writes report on its findings. December, House Judiciary Committee considers and

possibly drafts articles of impeachment. By Christmas, Possible impeachment vote by the full House

KINKADE: Well, Democrats are pushing ahead with a speedy timeline despite not having the testimony of several key witnesses who have refused to

appear. the Judiciary Committee could draft articles of impeachment next month, and the full House could vote by Christmas.

Well, President Trump is lashing out today, slamming Democratic lawmakers as sick and nuts. He says he's looking forward to getting a trial in the

Republican-controlled Senate.

So let's get some more reaction now from the White House. We're joined by Boris Sanchez. Boris, always good to have you with us. So we've heard,

obviously, some pretty damning testimony, which made it clear that President Trump did use his office for personal political gain. But he was

asked about that at the White House today. What was his reaction?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Right. The president was hosting some collegiate athletes here at the White House today, and he was

asked about impeachment by a group of reporters.

Ultimately, he said that this was a great week for him in this impeachment hoax, as he calls it, the president saying that he feels tremendous support

from Republicans. And it matches what we've heard privately from White House aides, who have told us that the president is confident that

Democrats do not have enough to impeach him.

He has said that he does not believe that he'll be impeached, though it appears increasingly likely. Despite that, he has said, as you noted, that

he wants a trial in the Senate. The president's saying, in part because he wants to call witnesses himself. He wants to call Joe and Hunter Biden to

testify, as well as the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Adam Schiff, and that whistleblower whose complaint initiated this entire

impeachment process.

Of course, it is still being debated in the House, exactly what the articles of impeachment will look like. So far, we've heard from

Republicans who privately have had meetings with the White House Counsel, Pat Cipollone, and trying to sort out exactly what the best path forward

is. It's unclear if ultimately they'll dismiss those articles of impeachment, or whether we'll see a long thought-out trial -- Lynda.

KINKADE: Well, as you mentioned, the president has said that he does indeed want a trial.


KINKADE: And some Republicans seem to be pointing out that they think they could actually benefit from a trial. Just explain why.

SANCHEZ: Yes, precisely. So what we're hearing from sources that -- is that in those meetings between senators and the White House Counsel -- I

should note, senators like Mike Lee, Ted Cruz, Lindsey Graham, Tom Cotton - - they're expressing interest in having Democrats essentially go all-out and make their case and take as long as they need to try to form their

argument, and then rebutting that with a rigorous defense of the president that, in their eyes, shows that he did nothing wrong and that he should not

be removed from office.

Of course, playing into that is this idea that a lot of those Democratic senators that would need to be on hand for an impeachment trial are

currently running for president, and it might take them away from the campaign trail.

I did want to also note that sources told us that during these meetings between the White House Counsel and these senators, senators urged the

White House to not fixate on the whistleblower, to not try to get that whistleblower to testify, something that was obviously contradicted by the

president today when he said that he wanted the whistleblower to come forward.

Obviously, the president mounts his own defense. And we've seen him sort of rebuke what advisors have suggested to him as the best path forward --


KINKADE: And we have seen that on many occasions. Boris Sanchez, good to have you with us. Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Thanks so much.

KINKADE: Well, when Thursday's impeachment hearing was finally adjourned, it marked the end of an historic week. Suzanne Malveaux recaps this week's




SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): House Democrats, moving one step closer to impeaching President Trump, building

their case that he orchestrated a plan to withhold military aid and dangled a White House meeting in exchange for Ukraine announcing investigations

into his political rivals.

Multiple Democratic sources, telling CNN they're hoping to wrap up by Christmas, including holding proceedings before the House Judiciary

Committee, drawing up articles of impeachment against Trump, and holding a vote on them.

REP. VAL DEMINGS (D-FL): We'll regroup next week and talk about the steps, moving forward.

MALVEAUX (voice-over): But their investigation has hit some road blocks, with the White House and State Department both stonewalling Democrats from

accessing important documents and having access to top administration officials, allegedly involved in the scheme.

REP. DENNY HECK (D-WA): What I would like to see happen next is that Ambassador Bolton and Secretary of State Pompeo do exactly what the very

brave and courageous people who work for them did, which is to step forward and put patriotism for their country ahead of their own personal interests.

MALVEAUX (voice-over): Still Speaker Nancy Pelosi says they have enough evidence to press forward.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: No, we're not going to wait until the courts decide. We can't wait for that because, again, it's

a technique. It's obstruction of justice, obstruction of Congress.

MALVEAUX (voice-over): House Republicans disagree.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I think we've had enough. I think it's time to shut it down.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): -- the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

MALVEAUX (voice-over): In the last hearing of the week, former White House National Security official Fiona Hill described Ambassador Gordon

Sondland's role in Trump's actions towards Ukraine.

FIONA HILL, FORMER WHITE HOUSE RUSSIA ADVISOR: He was being involved in a domestic political errand, and we were being involved in national security

foreign policy, and those two things had just diverged.

MALVEAUX (voice-over): The White House's former top Russia advisor, also dismantling Trump's debunked conspiracy theory that it was Ukraine, not

Russia that interfered in the 2016 elections.

HILL: I refuse to be part of an effort to legitimize an alternate narrative. These fictions are harmful even if they're deployed for purely

domestic political purposes.

MALVEAUX (voice-over): David Holmes, and aide at the U.S. embassy in Ukraine, detailing the phone conversation he overheard between Sondland and

President Trump, just one day after the president's now-famous call with Ukraine's leader.

DAVID HOLMES, DIPLOMAT AT U.S. EMBASSY IN UKRAINE: The president's voice was loud and recognizable. I then heard President Trump ask, so he's going

to do the investigation? Ambassador Sondland replied that he's going to do it.

MALVEAUX (voice-over): Holmes, quoting Sondland as saying the president did not care about Ukraine. Instead, he only cared about --

HOLMES: Big stuff that benefits the president, like the Biden investigation that Mr. Giuliani was pushing.


KINKADE: Well, for the very latest now on Capitol Hill, I want to bring in CNN's Phil Mattingly for more on all of this. And, Phil, Republicans

obviously do not support impeachment. They believe and they continue to say that President Trump has done no wrong here.

So from the Republicans you've been speaking to, what is it going to take to sway their opinion? Because the Democrats are going to need them if

they are to vote President Trump out of office.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Look, they've been watching the same hearings over the course of the last two weeks as you've

been watching, as I've been watching, as everybody else in the country and around the world have been watching.

And I think the short answer is, I'm not sure there's anything at this point, at least in the House. House Republicans and Senate Republicans,

the two chambers of Congress are kind of in different positions on this. But House Republicans have really stuck together and stuck to the idea that

they're there to support the president, they're there to defend the president. And what they think the president was doing was OK.

Now, that's not monolithic. There are House Republicans who are uncomfortable with what the president was doing, but they aren't

uncomfortable enough to vote to impeach him.

Now, shift over to the Senate. The Senate's kind of a different animal. The Senate is you're representing a state, not a district. You've -- more

people are up for re-election in tough races over there. And Senate Republicans have voiced more concern about what they've heard from the


But this point in time, you mentioned, if you want to remove the president from office, you're going to need at least 20 Republicans in the United

States Senate to be able to pull that off. And right now at most, there's maybe two or three who are even considered on the fence.

It's a heavy, heavy path forward to actually remove the president. At this point in time, I think the bigger question is, can they get any Republicans

to support the Democratic efforts at all, Lynda.

KINKADE: That is the big question. We will see how this plays out. It seems like it's going to be an uphill battle. We'll have to leave it there

for now. Phil Mattingly, good to have you with us. Thanks so much.

Well, for more perspective on all of this, I want to bring in CNN Global Affairs Analyst, David Rohde.

Hi, David.


KINKADE: So this all moved along pretty quickly. And we've had two weeks of public testimony, some real bombshell testimonies. But the Democrats,

now moving ahead with impeachment without us hearing from some key witnesses in all of this.


Some are suggesting that is a mistake, that they're moving ahead quickly without us hearing from those. Others are saying, well, we don't want this

to drag on any further because voters approaching the 2020 election are concerned about a whole raft of other things, from the economy to gun

reform to health care. What's your take?

ROHDE: I think there could be a short pause here. There was a mention earlier of the importance of National Security Advisor John Bolton and his

testimony. He was very troubled by what the president was doing in Ukraine, he said he didn't want any part of this drug deal, was how he

described it. He doesn't want to testify though until he's, you know, ordered to do so in a court ruling, and that could drag on for weeks.

So I don't think the Democrats, if they wait too long and engage in long court battles that could backfire on them. And it's interesting, this is

almost a political impeachment. I think no one expects the president to be removed. But the Democrats, I think their base -- this is all about, you

know, each party's base -- their base wants to see this president impeached, they want him to sort of be punished for his conduct, even if it

doesn't end up removing him from office.

KIINKADE: And you mentioned John Bolton. I want to reference the testimony we heard yesterday from Fiona Hill -- the White House advisor on

Russia, Ukraine, European affairs -- who clearly noted that her boss, the former national security advisor John Bolton, was worried about Donald

Trump's personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, being involved in all of this.

Let's just play a little bit of what she had to say.


HILL: Ambassador Bolton had looked pained, basically indicated with body language that there was nothing much that we could do about it. And he

then, in the course of that discussion, said that Rudy Giuliani was a hand grenade that was going to blow everyone up.


KINKADE: So today, we've now heard from John Bolton on Twitter. Let's just bring up what he said. And he said, "Since resigning as national

security advisor, the @WhiteHouse refused to return access to my personal Twitter account. Out of fear of what I may say? To those who speculated I

went into hiding, I'm sorry to disappoint."

Well, he's obviously -- he also -- he also dropped a bit of a hand grenade himself on Twitter as well, saying that there is more to come. Could he be

about to throw his own hand grenade? Because we know the White House didn't want him to testify, and we haven't heard from him. So could we now

be about to hear some revelation from him?

ROHDE: We could. There's nothing legally preventing him from testifying. Every witness we saw this week was instructed by the White House to not

testify, but these were career civil servants and they voluntarily testified. So I think it would be great for the country for both

Republicans and Democrats if Bolton would testify. But right now, the White House is ordering all of its senior aides to not testify.

And the president is wrong when he, you know, calls this a hoax. This situation in Ukraine was completely abnormal, improper, you know, illegal,

one could argue. The question is, is it impeachable? And I think John Bolton, because he was with the president, can answer some of those

questions about, did the president himself, you know, drive this? Did he ask for the military aid and the White House visit to be held up?

KINKADE: David, you mentioned earlier that this is indeed just a political impeachment. There's no way that we're going to see Donald Trump removed

from office, given that he has Republican support and the Democrats need the Republicans to get him removed from office in the Senate.

So how can the Democrats make this a key election issue? How can they sway voters that might be sitting on the fence about this?

ROHDE: Frankly, there are so few voters left sitting on the fence. And again, this is what's changed in the Trump era. It's about, you know,

ruling (ph) the country to please your base. So Donald Trump, you know, appeals to his most ardent -- some would say most extreme kind of right-

wing supporters, and then this sort of happening on the left where, you know, Nancy Pelosi, I think, had to start this process.

And I guess they would argue, though, that this is a very serious thing, he should be held accountable and this is the argument Adam Schiff made, the

Democratic chair of the Intelligence Committee. To stop future presidents from engaging in these kinds of abuses, you know, this process has to go

forward to deter Trump himself, and not set a precedent that future presidents can -- can get away with this.

Will that resonate with voters? Not as much as jobs and health care and gun violence and other issues, as you just said. So it's a very risky

dynamic here. I don't think it's going to change the basic alignment of parties in the U.S., but it's -- the stakes are high. If either side goes

too far in one direction, it could backfire on them.


KINKADE: And looking ahead at the election next year, we did hear from Fiona Hill yesterday, give a pretty dire warning about Russia being a

serious threat in influencing the next election. Do you think enough is being done to prevent Russian influence in 2020?

ROHDE: No, I don't think enough is being done to sort of stop Russian disinformation or, frankly, any disinformation. I think there's going to

be domestic political groups inside the United States posting fake videos, all kinds of, you know, fake ads and claims on social media. And it's very

important for voters to sort of, you know, read skeptically, you know? Make sure that they're getting accurate information. It's going to be a

chaotic and very partisan campaign.

But, again, I think there's a -- you know, both parties -- if Republicans sort of dismiss what Trump did with Ukraine and dismiss this impeachment

thing and don't take it seriously, that will hurt them. And I think if Democrats, you know, overplay it, that's a mistake too.

People should respect the votes in Congress, in the House and the Senate. This is our democracy, you know, and this kind of rhetoric is getting too

extreme,. And so if he is not removed, Democrats should accept that and there should be a -- you know, a very aggressive and vibrant 2020 campaign.

KINKADE: It certainly will be that. David Rohde, as always, good to have you with us. Thank you.

ROHDE: Thank you.

KINKADE: Well, CNN has learned a former FBI lawyer is under criminal investigation after allegedly altering a document related to the 2016

wiretap of a former Trump campaign advisor.

Well, that advisor, Carter Page, was under surveillance in connection with the investigation into the Trump campaign's ties to Russia. But despite

the misconduct allegations, sources say it did not affect the overall validity of that surveillance application. And he was described as a low-

level attorney, and he is no longer in the FBI.

Well, the alleged misconduct is part of the Russian investigation review that is due out pretty soon from the Justice Department inspector general.

Evan Perez has been following this story, bringing us these developments from Washington. Good to have you with us, Evan.


KINKADE: So this does indeed center on a low-level attorney, who's no longer with the FBI but is under investigation. Just bring us up to speed

with exactly what he is accused of doing.

PEREZ: Well, yes. This is an attorney who was involved in helping to put together the application for the court-ordered surveillance of Carter Page,

who was a Trump campaign advisor back in 2016. And during the process of doing that, apparently altered a document that was part of the preparation

for this application.

And so that's what the inspector general for the Justice Department found as part of this review that they've been doing. As you mentioned, it's due

out on December 9th, the report that he's prepared, the inspector general has prepared.

But it is a very serious allegation even though, as you mentioned, it did not in the end affect the validity of the work, of the actual surveillance

application. The investigators found that this is a very troubling, obviously, episode to have happened. And so that's why it is now part of a

criminal investigation that is still ongoing at the Justice Department.

KINKADE: So, Evan, from the get-go, President Trump has attacked the FBI and the intelligence community. How is he responding to all of this?

PEREZ: Well, he said that this is just one of many things that he's expecting. He's expecting big things to come from this report. He's

actually raising expectations as to what he says are going to be the findings.

And again he believes, as you said, Lynda, he says that, you know, essentially he was illegally spied upon, he said the intelligence community

and the FBI illegally acted to try to investigate not only his campaign, but also these connections between people like Carter Page and some of his

other advisors and the Russians, who were obviously meddling in the 2016 elections in favor of Donald Trump.

So again, the president's expecting big things. I'm not sure that's exactly what he's going to get, however.

KINKADE: All right. We'll have to take a look at that report when it comes out. Evan Perez, good to have you with us on that story. Thank you.

PEREZ: You, too. Thanks, thanks.


KINKADE: Well, still to come, another major organization distancing itself from Prince Andrew. When we come back, we'll look at the latest

developments involving the troubled royal.


KINKADE: Welcome back. Well, another organization is distancing itself from Britain's Prince Andrew. The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra says it

dropped Andrew as a patron, and it comes after that disastrous interview, where he tried to explain his friendship with convicted sex offender

Jeffrey Epstein. CNN's royal correspondent Max Foster has more.


MAX FOSTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): By speaking out, Prince Andrew hoped to end speculation about him and his links to convicted sex offender

Jeffrey Epstein. But it ended up costing him his job.

According to a royal source, he agreed to step back from his public duties following discussions between him and the queen, Prince Charles and others.

In a follow-up statement, the duke expressed sympathy for Epstein's victims and regret for his association with Epstein, both noticeably absent from

his BBC interview.

EMILY MAITLIS, BBC PRESENTER, NEWSNIGHT: Do you regret the whole friendship with Epstein?

PRINCE ANDREW, DUKE OF YORK: Now, still not. The reason being, is that the people that I met and the opportunities that I was given to learn,

either by him or because of him, were actually very useful.

FOSTER (voice-over): The duke has denied all the allegations made by Virginia Roberts, who alleges Epstein forced her to have sex with Prince

Andrew while she was underage.

PRINCE ANDREW: I have no recollection of ever meeting this lady, none whatsoever.

MAITLIS: You don't remember meeting her?


FOSTER (voice-over): He even questioned the authenticity of this photograph of them together. He refuted Roberts' claims that he was sweating whilst

dancing in a nightclub, saying an overdose of adrenaline after he was shot at while serving in the Falklands War made him medically unable to sweat.

A medical expert has cast doubt on that claim.

ASHLEY GROSSMAN, ENDOCRINE SPECIALIST: I can't readily see how someone, following stress, can stop sweating and then subsequently over time start

sweating again. That is -- if it occurs, it must be very, very rare.

FOSTER (voice-over): Prince Andrew also said that during a 2001 trip to New York, he didn't stay with Epstein but rather with the then-British

consul general, Thomas Harris. But in an interview with "The Daily Mail," Harris said he didn't recall the prince staying with him then. Buckingham

Palace told CNN they wouldn't comment on the discrepancy.

One by one, corporate sponsors for the prince's charitable causes peeled away. And when the story became part of the British election debate, it

was clear the duke's position was becoming untenable.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is the monarchy fit for purpose, Jeremy Corbyn?




FOSTER (voice-over): That was the red line for any member of the British royal family. The duke's actions had affected the institution that he was

born into.

PETER HUNT, ROYAL COMMENTATOR: This has damaged the British monarchy, make no mistake of that. It's not yet a full-blown crisis. What has been

called into question is the judgment of many people, including the judgment of the queen for allowing this interview to take place.

FOSTER (voice-over): An attorney for some of Epstein's victims has asked for the prince to testify. But so far, no official requests from

investigators. No charges have been filed. He says he will help with appropriate law enforcement investigations if required. Max Foster, CNN,




KINKADE: Well, Tesla is known as a company unafraid of bold ambition, but its latest innovation may be falling flat. There were audible gasps from

the crowd when Tesla rolled out its electric Cybertruck, which some have described as a triangle on wheels.

And to make matters worse --




KINKADE: Well, that was the company trying to show off its bulletproof windows. Obviously, there, it shattered the metal ball thrown --

obviously, it was not deflected. And the bungled Cybertruck launch has caused Tesla's stock to drop by more than five percent today.

Well, our Clare Sebastian has been following that launch and the reaction to it. Oh my gosh, what an embarrassment -- Clare.

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Lynda, not exactly what you want, especially when you're marketing this truck as something indestructible.

They threw the ball, it smashed the screen, twice. Though Elon Musk did say after that, that at least it didn't go through the window screen, so

presumably if you were sitting inside the car, you would have been fine.

It did also survive the sledgehammer test to the side of the car. It is made from the same metal alloy that Tesla are using in its SpaceX company

to make its Starship rocket ship. So that is still an intact selling point, if you will.

But overall, yes, this was an awkward -- an awkward thing for them. But the stock, down not just because of the blunder there, but because analysts

are seeing this really as a missed opportunity. They're trying to tap into the pickup truck market, which is 18 percent of all car sales in the U.S.

It's seen as one of the lucrative -- the most lucrative corners of the car market.

But many say (ph) that because of the somewhat futuristic design of this car, they are somewhat limiting their market and may not be able to lure

loyal pickup drivers away from their favorite brands like Ford and Ram And Chevy, Lynda.

KINKADE: Certainly are not good news for Tesla. Good to have you with us on this story, Clare. Thanks so much.

Well, still to come tonight, CNN confronts a convicted pedophile priest, working at a charity office in the Central African Republic. So who put

him there and why? We're going to have that exclusive report when we come back.


KINKADE: Welcome back. We're following an exclusive CNN report. A source says the Central African Republic has opened an investigation into a

Catholic priest who was convicted of abusing children in Europe.


In a year-long investigation in the United States, Europe and Africa seen (ph) and found that the second-largest Catholic order in the world, the

Salesians of Don Bosco, repeatedly failed to protect children from pedophile Catholic priests.

In the first part of a CNN's special report, CNN International Correspondent, Nima Elbagir, uncovers the case of a convicted pedophile who

was sent to work amongst some of the most vulnerable children in the world.

This report features themes that some viewers may find distressing.


NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We're tracking down a convicted pedophile priest, Father Luk Delft. Delft abused

two children in a dormitory in Belgium. We've learned he may be abusing again. Our investigation is zeroing in on a remote town in the Central

African Republic, Kaga-Bandoro.

ELBAGIR (on-camera): It's taken us about two days, three different planes, to get up here, to the north of the Central African Republic. If you are

trying to disappear, this would definitely be suitably remote.

ELBAGIR (voice-over): UNICEF has called it one of the worst places in the world to be a child. It's here in Kaga-Bandoro that Delft first worked for

Caritas, the Catholic Charity. Their mission, to protect the most vulnerable.

It's also here that we're hearing whispers of possible new victims.

At a camp for displaced people on the outskirts of town, Alban and his father agreed to speak to us about his alleged abuse at the hands of Father

Luk Delft.

Do you know who this man is?

ALBAN ALAIN, ABUSE SURVIVOR (through translator): Luk. We were friends. He would buy me clothes and he would often give me money. Every morning, I

would greet him before he would go to work. It was the basis for our friendship.

ELBAGIR (on-camera): He became your friend. What happened?

ALAIN (through translator): It was a horrible thing that he did to me. When you showed me his picture, it upset me. I don't even want to see his

face. It upsets me very much.

ELBAGIR: It's clear Alban is too upset to talk much more, so we asked his father if he can explain what happened.

What did Father Delft do?

ONONO ALAIN, FATHER OF ALBAN ALAIN, ABUSE SURVIVOR (through translator): What he did to my son is not a good thing. There are plenty of women he

could have had sex with. He preferred to sodomize my son.

ELBAGIR (voice-over): This was hard for both Alban and his father, but they told us it was important for them to talk. They want justice.

We leave Kaga-Bandoro. It's time to track down Delft.

This is Bangui, capital of the Central African Republic. We've traveled here from the north, where we met Alban.

Our contacts are telling us Delft regularly celebrates mass in the area. We try the churches. He's nowhere to be found. We try him at his

residence, but he hasn't spent the night. Nothing.

ELBAGIR (on-camera): We've spent the whole morning looking for Father Delft. It's been a bit of a wild goose chase. But now, we are hearing

that he's back at his office. And we're heading there now.

Hello, Father Delft.



We spoke to the prosecutor in Belgium. We'd like to speak to you to ask you some questions about breaking the terms of your sentence. We also

spoke to some children up in Kaga-Bandoro who had some really disturbing stories to share with us. And, of course, we want to hear what you have to

say about it, Father Delft.

DELFT: Nothing.

ELBAGIR: What do you mean, nothing?

DELFT: Nothing.

ELBAGIR: You're a priest, you're a man of God. These children are accusing you of abusing them and you have nothing to say for yourself?


ELBAGIR: Do you know Alban? Do you remember Alban? He said he was 13 when you abused him. Do you remember him? Alban? Alban, in Kaga-Bandoro

at the compound, the Catholic compound. He and his father spoke to us. He was crying. He said that you told him you loved him and then you hurt him.

You have nothing to say?


ELBAGIR: It doesn't disturb you to hear that children said this about you?

DELFT: Alban, no.


ELBAGIR: Do you want to say anything?


ELBAGIR: OK. Well, we will, of course, be speaking to the managers of Caritas about our findings. Thank you for whatever this was.

ELBAGIR (on-camera): Father Luk Delft's religious order, the Salesians of Don Bosco, moved him multiple times, each time to schools, campuses, even

supervising children, before we were able to catch up with him. You may think you know the story. Priests abusing children.

But what you may not know is that there are powerful institutions within the church who are free to self-police.

In many cases, not even the Pope can sanction them. Father Luk Delft belongs to the Salesians of Don Bosco, the second largest of these

institutions, a religious order whose mission is to help the most vulnerable children in the world.

Patrick Wall was himself a religious order priest, and to date, has helped to investigate hundreds of clerical abuse cases.

PATRICK WALL, CO-AUTHOR, SEX, PRIESTS, AND SECRET CODES: My experience has been that Salesians have the highest percentage of perpetrators of any

religious order across the world. Because of their focus, if a priest is allowed to go 20 to 30 years, there are several hundred victims per priest.

ELBAGIR (voice-over): We came to the Vatican to share the evidence that we were able to unearth over a year-long investigation and it's not just

Father Delft. We found evidence of abusers being moved, evidence of refusal to defrock convicted pedophiles.

Caritas Internationalis' new head of safeguarding says the Salesians did not contact them about the current allegations against Caritas' former

director, Luk Delft.

So, you were only made aware when we contacted you?

ANDREW AZZOPARDI, HEAD, CARITAS INTERNATIONALIS: Yes, and from what information you shared with us, there are - there are new allegations there

which need to be investigated, hopefully by the police or at least internally by the church to take action against Father Luk and any other

person who was responsible for Father Luk's behavior.

ELBAGIR: The Salesians appear to have withheld information even from others, in the church. We are still looking to understand how this is


Father Hans Zollner was one of the few people at the Vatican willing to answer questions. He says the new papal guidelines are progress.

FATHER HANS ZOLLNER, MEMBER, PONTIFICAL COMMISSION FOR THE PROTECTION OF MINORS: This is a very important step forward in the development of a

culture of accountability.

ELBAGIR (on-camera): Does this apply, though, to the Holy Orders? Because the Holy Orders will not directly fall under that bishop.

ZOLLNER: Now, the congregations and the religious orders follow a different type of structure and legal procedures. Many people think the

Catholic Church is a monolithic block with one CEO, who is the Pope, and he presses a button and every bishop and every priest and every Catholic,

actually, salute and they follow what he does.

And that is not the case. In some cases, in way too many cases, the religious superiors did not follow through canon law.

ELBAGIR: But the fact is, they did not follow through canon law.


ELBAGIR: And there was no oversight mechanism that made any note of that, so there are no sanctions. There have been no sanctions for that.

ZOLLNER: If there are no sanctions within the community, which is in that case, an order, or a congregation, then there is almost no possibility to

do that.

ELBAGIR: And I think that's the heartbreak for a lot of survivors.

ELBAGIR (voice-over): Until this blind spot is addressed, and the religious orders brought under the same guidelines as other priests and

bishops, many survivors believe the cycle of clerical abuse will only continue.

Nima Elbagir, CNN, the Vatican.


KINKADE: Well, more reaction to this report. The United Nations is temporarily suspending its work in the Central African Republic. And a

large European foundation has also dropped Caritas and another non- government organization linked to the Salesians of Don Bosco from a major pre-Christmas fund raising event.

Well, Caritas has responded, declaring that it "is saddened and outraged by the child abuse reported by CNN and it has expressed compassion and

solidarity with the children and their families."

The statement added, "We thank those who have come forward. They have our full support in telling their truth."


Still ahead, the murder of women because they're women. Activists in France are protesting the alarming rate of domestic abuse. And critics

blame a sexist society and its language.


KINKADE: With more and more people wanting ecofriendly products, new companies are rising up to the demand as part of their ongoing "INNOVATE

AFRICA" series, Eleni Giokos talked to the founder of the edible Munch Bowls.


ELENI GIOKOS, CNN BUSINESS AFRICA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The beaches of Cape Town, like many around the world, are littered with food containers

like these.

This kind of waste bothered Georgina De Kock so much, that she was inspired to come up with a product that would eliminate it altogether. It is called

Munch Bowls.

GIOKOS (on-camera): When did you come up with the idea to come up with an edible plate?

GEORGINA DE KOCK, DIRECTOR AND FOUNDER, MUNCH BOWLS: It really started of thinking, you know, what alternatives are they? Because someone asked me

to create something for them to hold curry and rice.

I wanted to make it a wholesome product as well. It's now you saving the world and you give people food that is not good for them.

Yes, no preservatives.

GIOKOS: No preservatives, I see. How do you preserve this thing?


GIOKOS: Why did you think of using that ingredient?

DE KOCK: It was probably amazing. I was at a talk show, specifically on (INAUDIBLE) and they mentioned it is actually a natural preservative. And

this was like, wow, because I was looking for something and I tasted that and it actually does work.

GIOKOS: Normally, these bowls are machine processed, but today Georgina prepared a few bowls by hand.

GIOKOS (on-camera): How long can it stay like this without getting soggy and you picking it up and it being a disaster and mess?

DE KOCK: At least five hours.

GIOKOS: Five hours?

DE KOCK: Mm-hmm. And you can heat it up in the microwave too.


DE KOCK: Mm-hmm.

GIOKOS: Five -- how did you come up -- how did that -- how does that work?

DE KOCK: Well, you experiment, and then suddenly, you get a surprise and it works.

GIOKOS (voice-over): The soup du jour, lentil, warmed in the microwave, but the bowl is still crisp.

GIOKOS (on-camera): Yes, it's pretty good.

DE KOCK: Do you like it?


GIOKOS (voice-over): Munch Bowls come in different flavors for sweet and savory food. And while this is not the only edible tableware on the

market, the company says they're in high demand.

But for innovations like Munch Bowls to completely eliminate single use plastics, they have to overcome one hurdle. Price.

DE KOCK: It is much more expensive than plastic. I think eventually, it will become cheaper as we can produce more.


No, we don't have a problem with our export market. They realize the need for this product and, you know, they are actually quite proud to be more

green, ecofriendly.


KINKADE: Well, still to come tonight, Simone Biles is the world's most decorated female gymnast, arguably, one of the greatest athletes in


And right now, she's absolutely furious. We're going to explain why when we come back.


KINKADE: Welcome back. Massive anti-government protests have rocked several countries in South America, the latest, Colombia.

On Thursday, national strike forced the country to close its border as thousands marched against the policies of the president. Colombia's police

described the protest as mostly peaceful and said the situation was under control. But some clashes did break out as police fired tear gas to

disperse the crowd.

And violence flared once again on the streets of Bolivia, weeks after former president, Evo Morales, was ousted. His supporters marched in the

capital carrying coffins of people who have died in clashes with authorities.

Police fired tear gas on the crowd after some protesters placed a coffin in effigy of the interim president on top of an armored car. At least 31

people have been killed across the country since the turmoil began last month over a disputed presidential election.

Well, people in France are angry too, but for a different reason. Activists are said to take to the streets Saturday for a mass protest

against femicide, that is the murder of women because they're women. The perpetrators are most often their male partners.

As Rosie Tomkins reports, advocacy groups say culture and language used to describe the killings are a big part of the problem.



ROSIE TOMKINS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There is great power in words. Whether they're chanted, painted, printed, or even

pasted on walls. Some even say that words can kill.

HELENE DE PONSAY, MARIE-ALICE DIBON'S SISTER: This is big. I mean, this is, like, the Bataclan every year.

TOMKINS: One hundred and thirty people died in terror attacks including the Bataclan in November 2015. Around the same number of women are dying every

year in France, from a crisis of domestic violence.

And the debate is now raging here about the culture that allows this to happen. And the language used to describe this violence is right at the

heart of it.

CAROLINE DE HAAS, CO-FOUNDER, NOUS TOUTES: There is a lot of expression which diminish the level of the violence. Family drama is used to describe

a murder of femicide.

TOMKINS: Femicide is the killing of a woman because she is a woman and most often by her partner. That's what authorities believe happened to

Marie-Alice Dibon. Her body was found stuffed in a suitcase and dumped in the river.

DE PONSAY: You're devastated, you're disgusted, you're ashamed that something like that could happen to your family. And you think, what a

waste. I love those. This is really her. She was already caring. He did everything so that she couldn't fight back.

TOMKINS (on-camera): Why do you think he did it?

DE PONSAY: Because I think he understood there was no coming back. She was going to leave him.

TOMKINS (on-camera): A relationship ends and a murder follows. It's a brutally common story here, and one that is often reported in a troubling



DE PONSAY: It's subtle and there is always a sense on it happened because she deserved it.

TOMKINS: That implication has become a focus for many activists here. With a clear message to the authorities and to the media, this is a crime

that needs to be taken more seriously.

DE HAAS: There is still media. We speak of (INAUDIBLE)

TOMKINS: Why is that important? What does that imply?

DE HAAS: It doesn't recognize the reality of the crime. There is no love in the story. There is just violence.

TOMKINS: To help the estimated 200,000 women suffering this violence, the French government has pledged over $5 million and launched a national

debate on the issue of femicide.

DE HAAS: There are 215 rapes each day. So it's a big -- it's a big problem. It's a big issue.

TOMKINS: This issue dates all the way back to 1804, when the Napoleonic code legally made women inferior to men. France's laws may have changed,

but the culture and the media have been slowed to follow suit.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, he hurt his wife because he didn't like the soup. He was trying to seduce women with a vegetable drunk and he went

into the wrong room and into the wrong women. This is some kind of a play on words, but the thing is, it's talking about rape of women.

Violence against women is not a fun history. It's something that you have to talk about like a fact of society, something that happens very


DE PONSAY: Femicide is just a very tip of the iceberg. The result of something a lot bigger and this can only change if the culture changed.

TOMKINS: Rosie Tomkins, CNN.


KINKADE: Well, USA gymnastics is the focus of negative attention once again. This time, it involves superstar, Simone Biles.

Now, the organization is already under fire after its long time team doctor, Larry Nassar, was convicted of sexual abuse. More than 150 women

and girls described the abuse in court which was hidden in plain sight.

Well, now in an explosive report from the Wall Street Journal lays out how USA gymnastics kept Biles in the dark when it began to investigate Nassar

back in 2015. They reportedly knew that she was uncomfortable with Nassar's treatments, but Biles didn't find out about the investigation

until years later, long after she'd won Olympic gold and had accused Nassar of abusing her.

I want to talk over this with CNN Sports Analyst, Christine Brennan, she joins us now from Washington.

This entire story is absolutely horrible. But, you know, as a mother of two young girls, I can't begin to understand why they would -- when they

were carrying out this investigation, why they wouldn't tell their star performer, who herself had raised concerns about this doctor.

CHRISTINE BRENNAN, CNN SPORTS ANALYST: Absolutely, Lynda. This is horrifying and it continues the now what three or four years of just

appalling stories out of something that should be so good, sports. Youth sports. Children playing sports, and as you mentioned, Simone Biles, the

best of them all.

Here she is winning four Olympic gold medals in Rio, and she doesn't know that the leaders of USA gymnastics and the U.S. Olympic committee know all

about Larry Nassar, they've been hearing about him since a year earlier at this point, July of 2015, and they basically have done nothing.

Not only have they not spoken with any of the alleged victims at the time, including Simone Biles, they're not telling the athletes including Simone

Biles that they are looking into this. The FBI finally was called. But the lack of information, the lack of any sense of humanity from the

leaders, thankfully the good news is these leaders are long gone.

And who knows if they'll end up in jail or not. But it's appalling and it remind us again of just what a tragedy, a sports tragedy and a lifetime

tragedy this was.

KINKADE: And really is the tragedy for the women and girls who have to live with this, because despite the fact that we heard from more than 150

women and girls who testified, there are so many others, at least 350 other women and girls who said that Nassar sexually abused them.

And we do have a response from USA gymnastics, I just want to bring that up and get your reaction, because they said, "We have extended our apologies

to Simone and her family and we are very sorry. Our organization's leadership at the time handled this situation in a disrespectful and

inconsiderate way."

I mean, as you say, this has gone on for years now. They're still dealing with the fallout of this. But how do you think the current leadership are

handling this?


BRENNAN: Well, probably a little bit better than the old leadership. But the fact that that wording isn't even stronger, Lynda, you know, that is

surprising to me. Here we are, 2019, heading into the 2020 Olympics, who's going to be the biggest name at that Olympic games for the U.S. and really

around the world, Simone Biles, that really shouldn't matter whether she's a star or a kid in the gym. Just having a dream and hoping for a chance to

maybe go to a regional or state competition, whatever the level.

But they are slowly but surely changing the culture of the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic committee and USA gymnastics. But I've been reporting about

U.S. figure skating and allegations of abuse there now over the last year, USA swimming has been dealing with a lot on and on it goes and it is so


And the key question is, Lynda, can we know for sure today that every girl and every boy is safe in gymnastics. And I'm not so sure the answer is

yes. And that truly is the problem, it is also a cultural problem, it's the Catholic Church, it's so many other things. But that's no excuse

because USA gymnastics, the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic committee needs to do a better job in keeping these kids safe.

That is, in fact, the charge of these national governing bodies to grow their sports and to make sure children are having good experiences in those

sports and that has been an abject failure over the last four or five years and going well back decades, especially in gymnastics.

KINKADE: It certainly has and we have heard from Simone Biles and her family.

I want to first bring up a tweet from Simone Biles reacting to this story on Twitter. She said, "I can't tell you how hard this is to read and

process. The pain is real. And doesn't just go away, especially when new facts are still coming out."

What is it going to take for a complete and independent investigation of both the U.S., obviously, Olympic, Paralympic committee and the USA


I mean, clearly, what is it going to take? I mean, certainly despite the fact that Nassar is now behind bars, there are still a lot of people

implicated in this.

BRENNAN: That's right, Lynda. And it may well take the U.S. Congress, and they have definitely been looking at both the Senate and the House of

Representatives, especially the Senate, looking at the -- again, the appalling lack of leadership and turning the -- a blind eye to sexual

abuse, the sexual abuse of young people in the U.S. Olympic movement.

And so they're looking into it, obviously, there's awareness now that we've never had before. And let's hope that those two things, legislation with

the culture being aware of it, hopefully that will change what has been an absolute horror story for the U.S. Olympic movement.

KINKADE: We can only hope.

Christine Brennan, good to have you as always. Thanks very much.

BRENNAN: My pleasure, thank you.

Kinkade: Well, thanks very much for joining us tonight. I'm Lynda Kinkade. Please stay with CNN. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.