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Hala Gorani Tonight
Diamond Princess Quarantine Ends; New U.K. Immigration System Unveiled; Michael Bloomberg Makes First 2020 Democratic Debate Appearance, Tonight; China Expels "Wall Street Journal" Correspondents; The Pressure Of Fame; Family Of Ex-Rugby Player Killed In Car Fire; Grief And Outrage As Missing Seven-Year-Old Girl Found Dead; Trump Grants Clemency To 11 Convicted Criminals. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired February 19, 2020 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:22]
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London, I'm Hala Gorani.
Tonight, the long-awaited disembarkation, Diamond Princess passengers finally allowed off the boat, but the coronavirus threat is far from over.
And a high-profile politician avoiding transparency? This time, it's the Democratic frontrunner, Bernie Sanders, refusing to release more health
records.
Plus, the family of a major British celebrity releases a previously unpublished social media post, detailing how troubled Caroline Flack felt.
A psychologist joins me to discuss the pressures of public life after her untimely death.
Iran's health ministry says both of its confirmed coronavirus patients have died. They are the first reported deaths in the Middle East, which makes
them significant. We've reached a grim milestone, by the way, in the epidemic: the virus now has killed 2,000 people. There are nearly 76,000
cases around the world, most in mainland China still.
In Japan, passengers who have tested negative are finally beginning to leave that Diamond Princess cruise ship, where people felt so confined even
as health officials reported dozens of new cases on board.
After two weeks of quarantine, people leaving the ship are feeling a mix of joy but also anxiety. Matt Rivers spoke to some of the passengers -- Matt.
MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Hala, there's just so much bad news coming off of this ship. I mean, it was on Wednesday that another 79 cases
of people testing positive for the coronavirus were reported, but it was also a day that saw a lot of happiness because some 800 people were allowed
off the ship, just to roam free, go back to where they lived in Japan or elsewhere, even if some people here are a little bit nervous about those
people getting off the ship.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RIVERS (voice-over): Guy (ph) wept as she got off the Diamond Princess. It was really hard for me, she says, while thanking tireless crew members.
Earlier in the week, she shot this video as she paced her cabin, waiting for the results of two coronavirus tests. But they came back negative, as
they did for about 800 other people, given special bracelets to prove it and all were allowed off on Wednesday. Officials say they showed no
symptoms as the newly freed started to head home.
And home is where we met Yuki (ph) in person, just 30 minutes' drive from the ship. She wanted to meet outside. She's negative, remember, but was
worried she'd get us sick.
If for some reason I actually have the virus, she said, I don't want to be the one infecting others.
When the quarantine began, she placed a lot of trust in Japanese health authorities. They said the best way to keep everyone safe was to keep
people quarantined in their rooms. But as the number of cases kept rising, Yuki (ph) got nervous.
She says, every day, it would be 60, 70, 99 new infections. We were scared, how powerful this is.
U.S. health officials say the quarantine may not have been sufficient to stop the virus' spread. Japanese authorities admit no quarantine is 100
percent perfect, but this was and is the best option and that most, if not all new infections, were contracted before the quarantine started. Some
passengers and outside experts dispute that.
Wednesday, as people disembarked, Princess Cruise's president, Jan Swartz, was there to greet those lucky enough to be leaving. She spoke exclusively
with CNN.
RIVERS: A lot of them have expressed concern over the situation. Some people say they didn't think the quarantine worked, other people were
concerned that because the crew wasn't in quarantine, that could have an effect on their safety. What do you say to those concerns, especially
considering that there are still people on board?
JAN SWARTZ, PRESIDENT/CEO, PRINCESS CRUISES: You know, I think the entire operation, from a medical and public health perspective, has been run by
the Japanese Ministry of Health. What I can say is, today, as our guests disembarked, they had tested negative for coronavirus.
RIVERS (voice-over): Swartz said she worked closely with Japanese health authorities and thanked them for their efforts, even as she felt for those
on board.
SWARTZ: This is an unprecedented situation. I mean, nobody going on vacation thinks that they're going to be notified in the last days, that
they've got an extension of 14 days and they're not going to be allowed to leave their cabin. So our heart breaks for everybody who experienced this
situation.
[14:05:01]
RIVERS (voice-over): Disembarkations continued into the night Wednesday, this video, from an Australian who recorded her walk to freedom.
Just 30 minutes away, Yuki's (ph) happy to be home but still wary.
I'm going to be anxious until the outbreak ends, she says. In other words, it's not over until it's over.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RIVERS: And, Hala, we really are not going to have any idea when it's over for a while now, and we're not going to have an idea if people are
justified in their fear that people that are coming off of this ship might spread the virus further in Japan. Maybe those fears are founded, maybe
they're not. We're just not going to know unless we see new cases pop up across mainland Japan or not -- Hala.
GORANI: Thanks very much, Matt.
As China struggles to keep health care workers safe in this outbreak, remember, two prominent doctors treating patients have died. Well, what are
they doing? They're sending robots, robots like this one, to help care for patients.
According to Chinese state media, this robot has been trained to work in restricted wards at a Beijing hospital, delivering medication and taking
temperatures. Doctors say they can use the robot to communicate with their patients for as long as they need without putting themselves at risk.
Now, immigration, a big topic of discussion. Certainly, a big talking point among politicians. The U.K. says it will unveil a new points-based
immigration system that it says is meant to cut back on cheap low-skilled labor from the E.U.
Under the new system, people receive points for characteristics like education or the ability to speak English. It gives preference to
academics, scientists and engineers. This is similar to the system already in place for non-E.U. immigrants. But Home Secretary Priti Patel has
admitted her own parents couldn't have moved to the U.K. under these requirements.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But it's quite interesting, isn't it? I wouldn't be sitting in my studio and you wouldn't be home secretary, one of the biggest
offices in the land, under your system.
PRITI PATEL, HOME SECRETARY OF BRITAIN: But the policies are changing. This is the point, we are changing our immigration policy, one that is fir for
purpose for our economy, that is based on skills. This is not about refugees and asylum and people that are being persecuted around the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, the new points system is due to start in January of next year, after Brexit, if it indeed happens in December of this year.
Phil Black is here to discuss this with us. Anybody who's been to London knows that the low-skilled, low-wage labor in restaurants and the services
industry is often from European countries within the E.U. That's going to end?
PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's going to end, yes.
GORANI: How do you keep the services industry running?
BLACK: It's a real concern for a number of industries, and that's what we've been hearing today from employer groups. They say there are certain
industries -- because that's the real sting in the tail, the real blunt message from this policy that's been announced today. Not just that skilled
workers are going to have challenges getting here or there's going to be a system for them, but that low-skilled workers simply will have no legal
route to get here, full stop.
And so that's going to hit industries that, as you say, rely upon this. So hospitality, construction, care workers and food and drinks manufacturing.
They're the vulnerable industries, we're told. And the response from the government is, you're just going to have to adjust.
GORANI: And also, the response from the government is, well, British people could fill those roles if you pay them sort of a higher wage. Is that
wishful thinking?
BLACK: To some degree, perhaps. Because there's not a lot of unemployment in the U.K. --
GORANI: Yes.
BLACK: -- right now. It points -- the government points to some 8 million people who, in its words, are not economically active. Look at that a bit
more closely, though, and these are people who are carers already, or who are students or who may be disabled, for example. So that -- that dormant
workforce, just sitting there, ready to step in, I think there's some real dispute over just to what extent that is an option.
The government also says, look, you're going to have a pool of E.U. workers who are choosing to stay here in the post-Brexit reality. And to some
degree, that may be true. But I don't think that takes away from the fact that there are businesses who are worried about their ability not just to
maintain current operations, but to grow in the future. and if they can't do that, then the economy as a whole could potentially suffer.
GORANI: Because this is, of course, also a discussion and a debate happening in the United States and other countries, where you have low-
income entry-level positions filled by immigrants who are willing to work terrible hours or -- you know, fruit-picking or whatever, although I know
that's excluded in this current immigration proposal in the U.K. But similar-type jobs, they're willing to do it, things that native citizens
are not necessarily willing to do. It's the same here.
BLACK: It is a reality, that's true --
GORANI: So --
BLACK: -- the other political reality, though --
GORANI: Right, yes.
BLACK: -- if you go back to the original Brexit debate, a lot of people talked about immigration as a big motivating factor. And that is why for
many of Brexit's biggest cheerleaders, this has been something of the holy grail, to try and end freedom of movement, take control of the country's
immigration system in a -- with a points-based system. Remember, they always talked --
[14:10:10]
GORANI: Yes.
BLACK: -- about an Australian-style system.
GORANI: And you're Australian, you've --
BLACK: I am.
GORANI: -- experienced that.
BLACK: Well, this is somewhat different to the Australian system. In some ways, it's simpler. It's more restrictive because you've got to have a job
offer to come here within a skilled position, in order to get that permission. But it is unashamedly a policy that is designed to reduce
immigration overall figures over time. That's its goal, and there is a big political motivation behind that in order to --
GORANI: It's --
BLACK: -- meet the -- to get the support of the people who voted for Brexit in the first place.
GORANI: And it's not an economic motivation because it is a fact that immigrants pay more into the system than they take out. It is also a fact
that they're a fuel for services jobs in the hospitality industry. So it's interesting that a choice would be made to limit the number of immigrants
taking jobs that maybe British people don't want and that help economically, for political reasons. It's interesting.
BLACK: It is indeed interesting, but we risk re-prosecuting the arguments of the referendum with these sorts of points, unfortunately. Because you're
right, the point has been made that immigrants -- particularly European immigrants -- are net contributors to the British economy.
But that did not stop the fact that big numbers in the referendum -- particularly from communities where they felt immigration had altered their
social fabric, or even from communities where immigration wasn't really a day-to-day factor (ph), they still voted for this. There is a political
will to tighten this up, and the government says it is delivering on it.
GORANI: Right. Well, it'll be interesting to see if it does impact the economy negatively, if opinions change then. Thanks very much, Phil Black.
Just hours from now, six U.S. Democratic presidential hopefuls will walk onto stage for a debate that could dramatically shake up the race. The
stakes are high for all the candidates, of course, with the Nevada caucuses just three days away. But billionaire Mike Bloomberg could face the
harshest spotlight. This is his very first debate, as Arlette Saenz reports, his rivals are more than ready to take him on.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Michael Bloomberg, on the debate stage for the first time tonight, but he won't be receiving a
warm welcome from his Democratic rivals.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Anybody here worth $60 billion? You can run for president!
SAENZ (voice-over): Bloomberg has spent over $400 million in TV, radio and digital ads across the country. But his team argues there is more to his
campaign than money.
JASON SCHECHTER, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, BLOOMBERG CAMPAIGN: Mike believes that Donald Trump is an existential threat to this country. His re-election
poses a huge, enormous challenge to America. So he will spend whatever it takes to get Donald Trump out of office.
SAENZ (voice-over): The former New York City mayor, holding mock debate sessions in recent days to prepare.
Three candidates, previewing their attacks on Bloomberg at CNN town halls last night.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I actually thought he should be on the debate stage because I don't think you should just be able
to buy your way to the presidency.
SANDERS: But I do think it's a bit obscene that we have somebody -- who, by the way, chose not to contest in Iowa, in Nevada, in South Carolina, in New
Hampshire. He said, I don't have to do that. I'm worth $60 billion.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think Michael Bloomberg is trying to buy the Democratic nomination for president?
PETE BUTTIGIEG (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
What else do you call it when you dip into your endless reserves of millions and billions, and don't go through the process of campaigning?
SAENZ (voice-over): Pete Buttigieg, who leads the delegate count right now, also taking aim at frontrunner Bernie Sanders.
BUTTIGIEG: We're asking people to choose between revolution and the billionaire? I just don't think that's speaking to where most of us are
right now.
SAENZ (voice-over): Sanders, trying to disavow the tactics that some of his supporters have taken.
SANDERS: There are people out there who want to divide the progressive movement. We can have a debate about the issues, but I do not believe in
online bullying, end of discussion.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm Elizabeth Warren, I'm going -- the woman who is going to beat Donald Trump.
SAENZ (voice-over): Elizabeth Warren, losing her voice on the campaign trail but tweeting this, apparently comparing Bloomberg to Trump, writing,
"at least now primary voters... can get a live demonstration of how we each take on an egomaniac billionaire."
Joe Biden is hoping for a strong finish in Nevada, after disappointing showings in Iowa and New Hampshire.
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We choose unity over division. We choose -- we choose compassion over cruelty. And maybe most importantly, we
choose truth over lies, truth over lies.
(APPLAUSE)
So, folks, it's time for us to get up.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: That was Joe Biden. And by the way, CNN poll of polls is very interesting because, once again, it solidifies Bernie Sanders in the poll
position with 28 percent; Biden at 16 percent.
Mike Bloomberg who, as we mentioned, will make his first appearance on the debate stage in Las Vegas, is at 15 percent. And rounding off the top six -
- or last six remaining candidates -- Elizabeth Warren at 13 percent; Pete Buttigieg 10; Klobuchar is seven and Steyer at two percent.
[14:15:14]
Chris Cillizza is in our Washington bureau, following this race very closely, and he joins us now. And Bernie Sanders is saying, Chris, that he
won't release his medical records, even though we know he had a heart episode a few weeks ago. What's going on there? Because that -- presumably,
he can't then criticize Trump for not releasing some of his documents and then saying he's going to not release his records.
CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS EDITOR-AT-LARGE: That's right, Hala. I mean, the medical letter has replaced the medical records. It used to be that you
released --
GORANI: Yes.
CILLIZZA: -- at least some of your sort of more detailed medical records. Now, in the era of Trump -- you'll remember, Donald Trump released a letter
from his personal doctor, that the doctor later claimed had been dictated to him by Donald Trump, saying he would be the healthiest person ever to be
elected president of the United States.
Well, Bernie Sanders is -- a couple things. One, 78 years old. Two, he had a heart attack last fall. So he is someone who would be the oldest person
ever elected to a first term as president of the United States, and I think that raises the bar. That, plus Donald Trump's lack of transparency;
Sanders has promised to be different than Trump.
It just makes for not a great look. And I think a part of the issue here is Bernie Sanders struggling with the reality of being a frontrunner. He's
never been the frontrunner before in a presidential race, he's always kind of been the underdog. Well, he's the frontrunner now --
GORANI: Yes.
CILLIZZA: -- and with the frontrunner status comes a lot of questions.
GORANI: And I wonder if, on the debate stage, he's going to be pressured by his Democratic opponents or whether strategically, it would be better at
this stage, still, for the Democrats to focus on Trump?
CILLIZZA: Well, so I think there will be some Trump focus. I think the biggest focus will be Michael Bloomberg.
GORANI: Yes.
CILLIZZA: Michael Bloomberg has spent his way into relevance in this race, he's second or third. We just -- you just showed the poll of polls, he's
kind of in that mix with Joe Biden, behind Bernie Sanders.
And I think this is the first time a lot of these candidates, these other five people, have gotten a chance to go one-on-one or five-on-one against
Michael Bloomberg. Because he's just been running lots and lots of ads. He's spent over $400 million.
So I actually think that probably, the fact that Bloomberg is new to the debate stage tonight, works in Bernie Sanders' favor because I think
Bloomberg will take a lot of the incoming attacks that, if Bloomberg wasn't there, would probably go to Sanders.
GORANI: And Pete Buttigieg, by the way, was asked in a CNN town hall, how would you fend off attacks on family values? He's, of course, openly gay.
This is how he answered that question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUTTIGIEG: Sorry, but one thing about my marriage is it's never involved me having to send hush money to a porn star after cheating on my spouse with
him or her.
(APPLAUSE)
So they want to debate family values? Let's debate family values, I'm ready.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: But what about Pete Buttigieg? I mean, he's at 10 percent in the poll of polls, but he's defied, really, expectations because a few --
CILLIZZA: Yes.
GORANI: -- months ago, if you'd said he was going to be in the last remaining seven candidates at this stage, probably some people wouldn't
have predicted this.
CILLIZZA: Yes. So I think it's important to note two things. One, he has overperformed in both of the first two votes. So in the Iowa caucuses, he
won -- albeit narrowly, but he won -- he beat Bernie Sanders. And in the New Hampshire primary, he came within a point and a half of beating Bernie
Sanders, and finished second.
So I think point two is, he hasn't gotten as much bump as I think we would have expected. Normally, if you have those two finishes in past elections,
you would be right up there with Bernie Sanders, in the lead in these national polls. He's not there yet.
So we'll look to Saturday, the Nevada caucuses. If Buttigieg again overperforms, then I think there's really something there that maybe the
national polling isn't caught up to yet, that people in the states who are most exposed to Buttigieg are responding to. And I think at that point, the
Democratic Party, writ large, will have to take a look at sort of what their options are, which, by the way, we'll also, Hala, have to know.
You know, if Joe Biden finishes third in Nevada, I don't know that he can win South Carolina. And then he's done, so that's a big opening that would
open up for a Buttigieg or a Bloomberg or even an Amy Klobuchar from Minnesota.
GORANI: You know, I was wondering if there was fatigue with all these debates and they've been going on for so long and the campaign is endless
in America, and I'll admit that --
CILLIZZA: Yes, it is.
GORANI: -- I wasn't watching every debate. But now, with Bloomberg coming on-stage, I'm considering staying up until 1:00 a.m. --
CILLIZZA: I know.
GORANI: -- to watch the debate tonight. So I wonder, this is going to inject some new energy into the race, and possibly people who weren't
paying that much attention will now be watching. And it'll be a big opportunity for the remaining candidates also to make a case with the
voters. So what should we be looking out for?
[14:20:01]
CILLIZZA: Yes, look, I always tell people, there's a reason why, in reality shows, about halfway through the season, they inject either someone who's
been kicked out of the house or off the island or whatever, they --
GORANI: Yes.
CILLIZZA: -- oh, they're back. The bachelorette is back, whatever it is. Because you want to inject some amount of sort of new life into the
storyline. I don't think that's why Michael Bloomberg's running for president, but that -- to your point, that's the practical effect.
Here's what I would watch. Bloomberg, he's someone who has risen almost solely based on his ability -- that no one else in this race has -- to
spend unlimited amounts, a billion, a billion and a half dollars on a campaign.
If they don't slow him down, Wednesday night in Las Vegas, it means that he goes into March 3rd with as much money as he needs and momentum in polling.
And at that point, I think you have to look at Bernie Sanders, Michael Bloomberg and maybe one other person. I don't know if that's Amy Klobuchar,
Pete Buttigieg, Joe Bide, Elizabeth Warren --
GORANI: Yes.
CILLIZZA: -- but maybe one other person, viable through March into April and as this thing goes along.
So if you don't slow him now, I'm not sure you're going to be able to. And he's going to wind up being at the Democratic Convention, either as the
nominee or with a whole lot of delegates, and be able to kind of play a major role in picking who the nominee is, which is a --
GORANI: Yes.
CILLIZZA: -- remarkable story, given that he wasn't in this race four months ago.
GORANI: Well, it is, in many ways, the power of -- there's -- what a lot of money can buy you --
CILLIZZA: Yes.
GORANI: -- I guess, the access it can give you. Thank you very much, Chris Cillizza. Really appreciate it.
CILLIZZA: Thanks, Hala.
GORANI: Coming up, a new setback for Boeing's troubled 737 MAX plane -- yet another one -- even though the jets have been in storage for nearly a year,
why the company calls it absolutely unacceptable, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: America's secretary of state is in Saudi Arabia for talks on all sorts of issues, regional questions, security issues. And he's, of course,
meeting with the kingdom's royal leaders.
Topping Mike Pompeo's agenda there is Iran. On his way there, the secretary of state said the U.K. -- or the U.S., I should say -- is willing to talk
to Tehran at any time if the Iranians, quote, "change their behavior fundamentally," not unlike what he said in the past.
Now, to northwestern Syria and fears the situation could get even more dire. President Recep Tayyip Erdogan says talks with Russia have failed,
and warns it is, quote, "a matter of time" for a military operation there. Turkey is sending more troops to the region after clashes with Syrian
forces, who are backed by Russia.
The Syrian government is waging an offensive that has sent some 900,000 people from their homes. They are aided by Russia, there is bombardment
happening ever so close to some of the camps where displaced people are trying to seek refuge.
Sam Kiley is in Abu Dhabi and joins me now with more. What are the implications on the ground, the fact that these big superpowers are
squabbling over that territory and that Russia is helping the government, the regime of Bashar al-Assad, continue its campaign in that part of Syria?
[14:25:12]
SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the obvious and immediate implication there, as you alluded to already, is the humanitarian
catastrophe that's unfolding, nearly a million people, 900,000 people, displaced from their camps. They've already -- most of them -- been
displaced from their original homes. Half of them, Hala, 500,000 -- or more than half -- are children.
So there is an immediate humanitarian catastrophe, which is exercising the United Nations and the international community, all of these different
bodies calling for a ceasefire.
But this, as you point out, is where it gets extremely dangerous and tricky, with the Turks sending in substantial numbers of troops but more
importantly, howitzer, 155-milimeter artillery pieces that are extremely powerful. They've been in action already, retaliating against Syrian
positions, and have killed Syrian troops in revenge for the killing of Turkish troops.
At the beginning of this offensive, which was an offensive against an area that, as part of a deal struck between the Syrian government, Russia and
Turkey, there would be a demilitarized zone, a safe zone for these refugees.
That is now under attack, bottling people up in an even tighter area. And Erdogan has pointed out that he cannot afford to absorb another million
people to the huge numbers that Turkey's already got inside its borders. But on top of that, he wants to try to establish some kind of buffer zone,
and he seems prepared to go to war to do that.
That would bring Turkey -- a NATO ally -- potentially into direct conflict with no other country than Russia. Now, the Russians are at the moment
saying that any escalation would be the most disastrous outcome -- not making a direct counter-threat, but signaling very strongly that they would
respond in kind if the Syrian government did come under attack from the Turkish forces.
So there is a potential there for a drastic international escalation of this conflict, right in the middle of this humanitarian catastrophe --
Hala.
GORANI: Right. Sam Kiley, thanks very much.
Boeing found debris in the fuel tanks of several 737 MAX jets that have been sitting in storage. It is just the latest problem for Boeing as it
tries to get the troubled planes back in the air. The company told employees Wednesday the debris is absolutely unacceptable.
Boeing's fleet of 737 MAX planes has been grounded since March after two jets crashed, killing nearly 350 people. Boeing says it will address the
problem with additional safety checks. CNN's Clare Sebastian joins me now.
So explain to us what this means, debris in fuel tanks? How does the debris get there?
CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Hala. So this is sort of a quality control issue, unrelated to the ongoing efforts to get the software
fix in place to get the MAX recertified. This is about the assembly line, things like metal shavings -- we don't know exactly what in this case, but
it can be things like metal shavings, tools, all sorts of things that occur as a result of, you know, the happenings along the assembly line as you
build this plane.
Now, it's not supposed to happen. We know that Boeing is aware that this is a potential issue, it has dogged the company with previous planes, the KC-
46 tanker, the 787 Dreamliner, all have faced issues with foreign object debris.
But the company is trying to get ahead of this. They released a memo from the head of the 737 program, Mark Jenks, in which he said, "We're taking
action after a range of foreign object debris was recently found in the fuel tanks of several 737 MAX airplanes in storage." FOD, he says, "is
absolutely unacceptable. One escape is one too many. With your help and focus, we will eliminate FOD from our production system."
So the questions, Hala, they're trying to answer is, how many planes this is in. They haven't said yet. That question will reveal whether or not this
is systemic or sort of a one-off, and how did it get there, what is the weak link in their production systems.
So not related to the work with the 737 MAX recertification, but not coming at a good time for the plane -- for the plane-maker as it tries to rebuild
confidence in that plane.
GORANI: And I guess that's my follow-up with this, in addition to all the problems that they've had with this plane. Do we have any kind of
visibility on when or if, even, the 737 MAX will be able to fly again?
SEBASTIAN: Well, they are not changing their estimate. A company spokesperson today told me that they are continuing to stick with what they
originally said a couple of weeks ago, that the middle of 2020 is when they expect the ungrounding to begin, that is the exact wording that they have
used, so read into that what you will.
The recertification is step one, then they have to deliver all these planes, help the airlines get them back into service.
[14:30:00]
We know that the U.S. carriers United, American and Southwest have pushed out flights to August or September. They're not expecting to have the Max
back for the busiest season of the year, the summer flying season.
So, you know, that is where we stand at the moment. But Boeing is being very careful. They don't want to get ahead of the regulators. That is where
they got burned last year, so they are keeping that cause pretty close to their chest to this.
GORANI: All right. Clare Sebastian, thanks very much.
Still to come tonight. The Wall Street Journal is sticking up for its correspondents, after China expelled three journalists. The opinion piece
that ignited the controversy is next.
And we will look at the tragic suicide of a very famous television personality in this country. The discussion of the pressures of celebrity
when we return. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Well, China has expelled three Wall Street Journal correspondents and the U.S. is condemning this. The Secretary of State Mike Pompeo says
quote, mature responsible countries understand that a free press reports fact and expresses opinions, even though obviously, is the Secretary of
State working in Donald Trump's cabinet who so very often disparages the press.
He is referring to this opinion piece published by the Wall Street Journal earlier this month. The article scrutinizes China's handling of the novel
coronavirus outbreak and its economic impact. The Chinese government condemns it as racially discriminatory. The Wall Street Journal is calling
on China to reverse course and reinstate its journalists.
Brian Stelter joins me now with more.
Is there -- talk to us about how the Wall Street Journal is approaching this, is reacting to the fact that China expelled three of its reporters.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yes. The newspaper's top editor, Matt Murray, says this is a harsh and unprecedented action. And
indeed, the Foreign Correspondents' Club says they haven't seen something like this since 1989. Since the Tiananmen Square Massacre, where multiple
reporters have been kicked out of China.
Now, we know that the reporters in this case have five days to leave the country. One of those reporters is actually in Wuhan right now, the
epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak, trying to cover the situation there. So it may be difficult for her to leave. But these reporters have been
given five days to leave the country.
Dow Jones, it owns the Wall Street Journal. It's a Rupert Murdoch property. It says it is advocating for this decision to be reversed. But the Chinese
government, as you mentioned, says that this opinion piece was racially discriminatory and that's why they are taking action.
GORANI: And it's interesting, as I mentioned earlier, that Mike Pompeo was the secretary of state and a big defender of President Donald Trump, who
essentially calls the news media and oftentimes CNN fake news, and is very, very regularly disparaging the work of reporters that he's --
[14:35:07]
STELTER: Right.
GORANI: -- the one saying something like a free press is very important.
STELTER: It's great to hear him say it, but he is not consistent in the messaging, nor is the Trump administration. I think Pompeo is taking
advantage of an opportunity to chastise China. Because just yesterday, just on Tuesday here on the east coast of the U.S., the State Department came
out and said that the Chinese state owned news outlets that operate in the U.S. will now have to be treated as foreign missions. Basically as embassy
is in the United States.
That means, for example, staffers will have to register as if they are diplomatic staffers. That was a dramatic step by the State Department in
the U.S. And you might wonder if the Chinese government's retaliating by kicking these Wall Street Journal reporters out.
But again, they say they're offended by that opinion piece you mentioned that they're calling China the real sick man. Look, the opinion division
and the news divisions are separate at the Wall Street Journal. They're absolutely separate. But the opinion division is causing a controversy that
the news division is now being essentially punished for.
GORANI: Yes. And it's interesting, and you mentioned one of the reporters is actually in Wuhan. So they only have five days to leave and they can't
leave physically from basically a huge quarantined area, essentially. What happens?
STELTER: That's right. And I think the Committee to Protect Journalists, the press advocacy group, did a good job calling this out, saying, during a
global health emergency, it is counterproductive for the Chinese authorities to be limited in the flow of news and information. So kicking
out reporters in the midst of this coronavirus crisis, not a good look for the Chinese government makes you wonder if they are concerned about the
scrutiny of how this outbreaks being handled. As for how that report is going to Wuhan, I don't know.
GORANI: Chief media correspondent, Brian Stelter, thanks very much.
STELTER: Thanks.
GORANI: Perhaps she doesn't know either at this point.
Now, the British music industry's big awards night turned into something quite political yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE, U.K. RAPPER: He is racist, whether or not, it feels racist. The truth is all Prime Minister's a real racist. They say you should be great for...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Rapper, Dave, the London rapper, accused Boris Johnson of being a racist just moments before winning one of the top prizes of the evening,
Album of the Year.
Dave also blasted the media for treating Megan, the Duchess of Sussex, differently from Catherine, the Duchess of Cambridge, because of the color
of their skin. And he brought up a lot of other big hot topic issues, whether it was the Grenfell Tower or the Windrush generation as well. Got
quite a lot of applause that evening.
The Brit Awards also included several tributes to a T.V. personality, not necessarily known around the world but who struggles perhaps with -- our
struggles that have been experienced by others outside of this country. Her name is Caroline Flack. She killed herself over the weekend, age just 40.
Flack has been a staple on British television as a reality television personality and a celebrity host for close to two decades.
In December, though, she was charged with assaulting her boyfriend. Flack's family released an unpublished Instagram post on Wednesday in which she
denies the domestic abuse.
Flack's post also talks about the pressure of being a celebrity and dealing with the toxic opinions of the social media world.
Joining me now is Honey Langcaster-James, a psychologist who helps actors deal with stress on movie and T.V. sets. And she's the director of Services
for Onset Welfare T.V. and Film Services. Thanks for being with us, Honey.
So what I want to make clear, and you made this clear as well, we're not speculating about the reasons for this suicide. But I wanted to talk more
widely about the pressures of celebrity of being on social media, of being bullied quite often, of being the target of very personal attacks. What
impact does that have on mental health?
HONEY LANGCASTER-JAMES, DIRECTOR OF SERVICES, ON SET WELFARE: Well, it has a devastating impacts. I mean, it happens to non-celebrities as well. Of
course, we know that young people are getting more bullying online.
This is a whole new arena. And at the moment, it's relatively unregulated, unfettered, people can get anonymous account. They can hurl abuse at people
online. And there's relatively little comeback because even the platforms don't always know who these people are, which is something that I
personally have been campaigning to change.
It's -- to me, I use the analogy that it would be like creating a town and then saying, we're not going to put registration plates on any of the cars,
you can just go around doing whatever you want. And it's very, very destructive for people on the other end of that, what -- you get these so
called keyboard warriors.
GORANI: Yes.
LANGCASTER-JAMES: But actually, they're not warriors. They're people often who are very disenfranchised, very disempowered, looking to get attention.
And one of the problems, of course, is that sometimes when celebrities, public figures receive dreadful, dreadful, shocking messages, they often
want to get validation for the horrific nature of that. And so they might share it, they might say, look at this awful message that I got, but --
GORANI: I see that sometimes.
LANGCASTER-JAMES: -- unfortunately, you're adding fuel to the fire.
GORANI: I see that sometimes, and I know exactly what they're doing. I've received hateful messages not necessarily related to anything I did or
said, but just because people want to hurt you. Some people are just mean- spirited and they do it.
[14:40:08]
But the -- ignoring it, I guess it's easier said than done?
LANGCASTER-JAMES: You can't ignore it. I mean --
GORANI: Well, what do you do then?
LANGCASTER-JAMES: -- emotionally, you can't ignore it, it's going to go in because our brain is hardwired to be attracted to pick out threat.
GORANI: Yes.
LANGCASTER-JAMES: But what I suggest is, have a small private group, and this is for anybody, not just celebrities. Have a small private group,
maybe a WhatsApp group with your friends and family, show them and say, look what happened to me, get the comfort that you need and the validation
that you need.
But actually, the way to sort of, you know, get rid of a fire, if you like, is to starve it of oxygen. So I say, unfollow hateful accounts. I say clean
up your feed, make sure you're not giving any social currency to anybody out there who is sharing things that you don't think should be out in the
internet and they will soon go away.
GORANI: And that's -- I think you're absolutely right. One of -- if I may, one thing I do is I don't block, I mute. They never know that they were
muted, but I have hundreds of muted accounts, that are probably all day tweeting at me, who knows? I'll never know.
LANGCASTER-JAMES: But you wish you could do that in real life sometimes.
GORANI: Sometimes. But back to celebrity. So people who are in the public eye, is there also the mistaken belief, that because you are in the public
eye, probably wealthy, that you know, you're on a magazine cover that, therefore, you're so lucky and so privileged that, therefore attacks don't
hurt you as bad?
LANGCASTER-JAMES: Absolutely. And actually, what we see is that when public figures say that they're struggling with their mental health, or say that
they are struggling to cope with the online abuse that they're getting, lots of people will be very disparaging, and they'll say, but what have you
got to complain about? You put yourself in the limelight, as if you should just put up with it.
But actually, one of the things that I think we know and I work with a lot of public figures exclusively with celebrities, is that actually it just
adds a whole other level of difficulty on top of all the things that we all struggle with in our daily lives.
So you've got all the same things, relationship troubles, occupational stress, problems with your mental health. And then on top of that, you've
got public scrutiny and strangers saying things to you. And you can't even have a right to reply, because if you do, they'll say, well, why are you
complaining? So it's a very toxic arena to be in if you're a public figure.
GORANI: Sure. Now, Caroline Flack, we don't know, of course, what pushed her to this irreversible, to take this irreversible and tragic decision. We
do know that she had -- that she had liked and favorited (ph) tweets and articles on mental health, on struggling with mental.
What are the signs that someone is going through a very tough time? When do you intervene? How do you intervene?
LANGCASTER-JAMES: I'm so glad you've asked that because that's something we all need to understand, you know, nearest and dearest. So some of the
things to look out for are if someone has withdrawn and that could be on social media. It could be in your social circles.
If you just think actually, I haven't been seeing that person around very much. Send them a message and say, hey, are you OK? That's one sign. People
who stopped doing things that they would usually enjoy. So if you go to a yoga class or running club, and suddenly you're not seeing someone around,
maybe just say to them, are you OK? I've noticed that you've not been coming. These are the...
GORANI: But you're afraid sometimes of, you know, just being overbearing or, you know, not minding your own business.
LANGCASTER-JAMES: But I would say, don't be afraid of that. Because actually, one of the things we know that can save lives when it comes to
mental health, is being willing to have that conversation and actually ask the really difficult question, ask someone. I've noticed you've been down.
GORANI: Yes.
LANGCASTER-JAMES: Can I ask? Have you had any thoughts at all about harming yourself? Because what we...
GORANI: Can you save a life that way?
LANGCASTER-JAMES: You can. Because what we know is actually often people feel afraid to raise that topic. They want to tell someone, but they worry
that you don't want to hear it.
GORANI: Yes.
LANGCASTER-JAMES: So if you ask that question, it gives someone a sense of permission that they can actually tell you what's going on through their
head and talking about it can sometimes mean the difference between getting help or acting on it.
GORANI: OK. So I'm afraid we have to leave it there. But it's very interesting to hear you say that just by asking the question and showing
interest in someone struggles can make the difference between having them go through with something, you know, that they could never take back and
perhaps...
LANGCASTER-JAMES: Don't be afraid to ask. Yes.
GORANI: Well, thank you so much Honey Langcaster-James for joining us. Really appreciate you on the program.
Well, and also, it has to be said. If you or anyone who's struggling with suicidal thoughts, do not hesitate. CNN's Impact Your World has compiled
resources for suicide prevention, and nearly every country search for how to get help for someone who might be suicidal as well. And this could help
you out if you have a friend or a loved one who might be going through a tough time.
Well, still to come tonight grief and outrage in Mexico City as a missing 7-year-old girl has found murdered, the latest in a string of killings of
young girls and women that is shocking the country.
[14:45:03]
And we also have this story, the horrifying deaths of a young family in Australia. Why police say it's among one of the worst tragedies they've
ever seen. We have that coming up. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Former Australian rugby league player, Rowan Baxter, and his family have died in a car fire. Police are trying to piece together exactly what
happened. As local news outlets report that Baxter may have set the fire himself.
Simon Cullen has this awful story. And warning, the details are disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SIMON CULLEN, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST (voice-over): A scene of unimaginable tragedy. Police arrived to find a car on fire. Three young children burned
to death, their father also dead and their mother critically injured.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've seen some horrific scenes, this is up there with some of the best of them. It's a terrible scene.
CULLEN: But late in the day, their mother had also died in hospital. According to Australian news report, the children's father, former rugby
league player, Rowan Baxter, doused the car with gas before setting it alight. Inside with his children, two girls age 6 and 4, and a 3-year-old
son, along with his wife, Hannah Baxter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I saw some flames and then the vehicle rolled across the road in came to a stopover there. The vehicle was engulfed in
flames and the lady was screaming.
CULLEN: ABC News Australia says Hannah Baxter jumped from the car yelling, he's poured petrol on me, a passerby tried to help. He too was rushed to
hospital suffering burns.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've been the ambulance service a long time and these scenes are always confronting even more so when there's children involved.
CULLEN: Rowan Baxter managed to get out of the car but died at the scene, he reportedly had self-inflicted stab wounds.
Australia's Prime Minister, Scott Morrison, says his heart goes out to the families and communities going through this tragic time and the emergency
responders confronting what would have been a shattering scene.
Police have so far declined to officially describe this as a murder suicide. They're working to understand what led up to the terrible few
moments, and flames consumed this car and the family inside.
Simon Cullen, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Well, a missing 7-year-old girl from Mexico City has been found beaten, abused, and murdered. Now, authorities believe they have identified
two people potentially linked to the girl's death.
Cyril Vanier has more on what has become a pattern of killings.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CYRIL VANIER, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR (voice-over): They're crying out for justice, justice for Fatima, a 7-year-old murdered last week in Mexico.
Here, family and friends from Fatima's San Sebastian neighborhood gathered to honor her memory as her remains were returned home days after they were
discovered in a bag near Mexico City.
Fatima went missing last Tuesday. The CCTV footage allegedly shows Fatima on the day she disappeared, being led by an unidentified woman who is now
the focus of a police search. Authorities have not said whether the woman is a suspect.
[14:50:11]
Fatima's murder has angered people here. They took to the streets on Monday demanding quick action to find those responsible.
This is a spokesperson for the Mexico City prosecutor's office offering two million pesos, a little over $100,000 for information.
But this has done little to appease people. Some say they are angry because the killing is just the latest in a series of murders of women in this
country.
There were several protests across Mexico City last weekend over the killing of 25-year-old, Ingrid Escamilla, whose partner is being held for
her murder.
Dozens gathered in front of the presidential palace last Friday and splashed blood red paint on one of the gates, angry that the government is
not doing enough to address violence against women.
Among the protesters was this woman whose daughter was also a murder victim.
LILIA FLORENCIA GUERRIER, PROTESTER (through translator): It fills us with rage and anger and that's why we're here because they're murdering us and
this government and the last one are not interested in us.
VANIER: Official government data shows that an average of 10 women were killed per day in Mexico in 2018, one of the highest murder rates of women
in the country in three decades.
On Monday, President Andres Lopez Obrador described the violent crimes against the women of Mexico as a social illness fueled by hate.
ANDRES LOPEZ OBRADOR, PRESIDENT OF MEXICO (through translator): This is the rotten fruit of selfishness and amassing of wealth in the hands of a few
while leaving behind the great majority of our people.
VANIER: In the meantime, anger is growing. And protesters here see a crisis that they say the government is slow in addressing.
Cyril Vanier, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Well, still to come tonight, he says he's fighting corruption. But do actions speak louder than words? We'll look at U.S. President Donald
Trump's clemency decision that have raised more than a few eyebrows after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: We want to revisit a story we brought you yesterday as it was breaking during our show and take a closer look at what it means for the
rule of law in America.
President Donald Trump is under fire for granting clemency to 11 convicted criminals.
CNN's John Avlon walks us through the details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (on-camera): Remembering Republicans said that Donald Trump really cared about corruption?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I do actually think he's concerned about corruption.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is a corruption issue there and, of course, the president honed in on that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The President raised the issue of corruption.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's talked about corruption all over the world.
AVLON: Well, that was fun, and also complete nonsense, because the president just used his pardoning power to commute the sentence of former
Illinois governor, democrat Rod Blagojevich, who, in case you forgot, was convicted of trying to sell Barack Obama's sentencing.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH, FORMER GOVERNOR OF ILLINOIS: I've got this thing and it's (BLEEP) golden. And I'm just not giving it up for (BLEEP) nothing.
AVLON: Yes. Trump has suggested this call was nothing out of the ordinary for politicians. Blago was charged with a variety of public corruption
crimes, including withholding $8 million in state funds to a children's hospital in hopes of getting a $50,000 campaign contribution.
Blago was impeached for being sentenced to 14 years in prison. And GOP lawmakers from Illinois warned Trump not to do this. And the Illinois House
Republican leader said this yesterday.
[14:55:09]
JIM DURKIN, ILLINOIS STATEHOUSE LEADER: I saw a governor who was rouged on steroids. He was a person that was not -- didn't care about the state of
Illinois, he cared about his own ambition.
Why should he get special treatment? I think it's wrong in a sense of bad message to people in this country.
AVLON: But, hey, he was a contestant on "The Apprentice" and his wife appeared on Fox News asking for a pardon, which is apparently how things
are done in the Trump era.
After all the same day, Trump pardoned former New York City police commissioner and frequent Fox News guest, Bernard Kerik, who was sentenced
in a corruption case for tax fraud and lying on White House forms.
As well as the top procurement officer for Bush 43, David Safavian, who was convicted of obstruction of justice and perjury in the Jack Abramoff
corruption scandal.
And former 49ers owner, Edward DeBartolo, Jr., who failed to report a felony after paying $400,000 to Louisiana governor, Edwin Edwards, for
riverboat gambling license.
Now, to this list can be added the past pardons of political allies like Dinesh D'Souza and Sheriff Joe Arpaio.
It's notable that most of Trump's grants of clemency have gone to well- connected offenders who have not filed petitions with the pardon office or did not meet its requirements, it's according to an analysis by the
Washington Post.
So to recap, the crimes that Trump pardoned today included corruption, obstruction of justice, perjury, tax fraud, wire fraud, and bribery. These
are many of the same offenses that Trump associates are accused of committed and not for nothing. President Trump has preemptively declared an
absolute right to pardon himself.
But hey, we just have to take Trump at his word that he hasn't even thought about pardoning Roger Stone. It's perhaps a good time to remember founding
father, George Mason's, concern that a President may frequently pardon crimes which were advised by himself. It may happen at some future day that
he will establish a monarchy and destroy the republic.
And while federal judges association has called an emergency meeting to discuss interventions and political incentives in cases including Roger
Stone's, make no mistake. We are watching the president abuse his pardoning powers and laying the groundwork for the pardoning of more political
cronies by defining deviancy down.
This is the opposite of draining the swamp and simply restocking them, and that's your reality check.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: John Avlon, thanks very much.
Finally, Harry and Megan are beginning a long goodbye as senior members of the royal family. According to a spokesperson for the couple, the Duke and
Duchess of Sussex will return to the U.K. later this month to carry out their final engagements before a 12-month transition period. It sounds like
Brexit, but it isn't.
This comes as Buckingham Palace discusses whether the couple can continue to use the word royal moving forward. Well, a royal source says it's
unlikely they'll keep using the term.
I'm Hala Gorani, thanks for watching tonight. Do stay with CNN. After a quick break, it's "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
