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Hala Gorani Tonight

Israel-Gaza Ceasefire Holds; European Union to Invest $1.2 Billion in African Vaccine Hubs; European Union Reaches Agreement on COVID Vaccine Passports; Both Israel And Hamas Claim Victory After Ceasefire; Conservation Groups Working To Rewild Pacific Archipelago; Hamas Leader: Battle With Israel "Important Milestone. Aired 2-3p EST

Aired May 21, 2021 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:00]

HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: Hello everyone, live from CNN London, I'm HALA GORANI TONIGHT. CNN is inside Gaza as a delicate ceasefire holds for now,

and key players weigh what they lost and what they've gained after days of violence. Also, this hour, Prince Harry reveals he turned to alcohol and

drugs as a coping mechanism. It's one of many royal revelations of the last two days, we'll have coverage of that.

And later, something a little lighter. We look ahead to Eurovision. It unites us all after all, right? The favorites, the dark horses and the just

plain weird. But we start this hour with Israel and Hamas, both declaring victory today after a tense ceasefire took hold. But even though the air

strikes on Gaza and rocket attacks on Israel have stopped, there was new unrest in Jerusalem. Israeli police once again firing stun grenades and

rubber bullets at Palestinian worshippers outside the Al-Aqsa Mosque. In response to what they called a riot. Clashes at that very spot where one of

the main triggers of the 11-day Israel-Hamas war.

Israel says its bombing campaign was quote, "an exceptional success" in destroying Hamas weapons and underground tunnels. But the political leader

of Hamas says the Palestinian resistance has emerged even stronger. And both say the conflict was a game-changer though for entirely different

reasons. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER, ISRAEL (through translator): Just as I promised, we harmed most of Hamas' capabilities far beyond what their

commanders imagined. Hamas thought it was shooting at Jerusalem or the cities of Israel, and we responded as business as usual. Instead, 11 days

and nights of great blows and huge crush that changed the rules of the game.

ISMAIL HANIYEH, HAMAS POLITICAL LEADER (through translator): We saw there was a big change occurring in western and European cities, even in the

heart of America. We witnessed millions of people in all western capitals going out to denounce this aggression. To ask for the lifting of this

occupation and to demand giving the Palestinian people their rights. Yes, we need in the coming period to build and strengthen this relationship with

the international community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Our international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson is in Ashkelon. So, so far, this ceasefire is holding, Nic?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: It is. And we have been down along the border earlier today, and you can see the Israeli

military moving there or getting ready to move the military hardware away from the outskirts of Gaza.

It's all lined up and many of the troops have actually already departed. It's just the hardware that's there. There's a level of disappointment by

some people in this part of Israel, particular close to Gaza, they feel that the government should have pressed ahead, that they shouldn't have

gone for a ceasefire. That they should have even, you know, taken tanks and troops into Gaza.

They're worried about the possibility of future attacks from Hamas. But I think it's Hamas that can really get the wind in its sails politically from

this. They've seen today in Jerusalem at these confrontations between Palestinians and Israeli police and around Al-Aqsa Mosque today. That,

there have been a lot more supporters of Hamas and other factions from Gaza in and amongst those Palestinians and have been for the Palestinian

authority who have a lot more influence in the West Bank and their organization Fatah.

So, politically, Hamas seems to have, you know, scored well by their own measure, and although the confrontations today came at -- we're at a

critical flash point, it seems there would be little incentive for them to reignite the bigger conflict with Israel. So, you know, perhaps, a rocky

day, the middle of today to see if the ceasefire was going to hold, but now it seems to be a little bit on firmer ground. Hala.

GORANI: Well, Ismail Haniyeh, the Hamas leader, I mean, he's trying to sort of portray himself, to position himself as the leader of all

Palestinians. He's even referencing protest in support of the Palestinian cause in western capitals. I mean, this is kind of a new development, isn't

it?

[14:05:00]

ROBERTSON: This is where Hamas is trying to get to internally with other Palestinian groups to emerge as the dominant faction, but internationally,

to emerge as politically recognized, not to be called a terrorist organization. I remember speaking to Hamas leader about ten years ago, and

what he wanted -- and he was speaking to CNN because he wanted to get a message into United States. Said he wanted them to join, to be at a joint

peace talks because they want that international political representation. That's where they're trying to go. They had designated a terrorist

organization in the United States.

The Israelis view them as a terrorist organization, unless they foreswear their weapons they're not going to be able to make that international leap

that they want to make. But this is how they're trying to position themselves in the future as the most important and influential Palestinian

group that represents the Palestinian people, and to be able to translate that into negotiations about a future peace.

GORANI: Right --

ROBERTSON: We're so far away from that at the moment, Hala, but that's how -- that's how they see themselves moving forward.

GORANI: Right, so far, way indeed, not just outside of the Palestinian territories, but among Palestinians, we don't see Hamas as their

representatives and I don't know how many Hamas fans you would find in some of these pro-Palestinian demonstrations in western capitals either. Thanks

very much for that, Nic Robertson. Ben Wedeman, you are live inside of Gaza and you're able to join us now. Tell us what you've seen over the last

several hours since you entered that strip of land.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, since we came in, we just went from one area to another that was utterly obliterated. We

saw huge craters where bombs had fallen like in main streets that had broken sewer pipes and water pipes.

Certainly, the infrastructure was never very good here, but what we're seeing is they were severely damaged by the Israeli bombing. We're seeing,

you know, building after building reduced to rubble and dust, in particular, we were in Al-Wahda Street where three buildings were hit at

about 1:30 in the morning on the 16th of May, around 42 people were killed.

Among them was one of the head of -- was the head of the Department of Internal Medicine at Shifa Hospital, one of Gaza's main hospitals and he

was also responsible for the COVID ward.

And I spoke to one of his family members who told me that they received no warning from the Israelis. And they said our lives are cheaper than the

call of a -- than the cost of a phone call to warn us to leave our buildings. He said they believed the target may have been tunnels, but they

had nothing to do with the tunnels, and that they ended up losing their homes and in this extended family, ten people at least.

Another woman who lived nearby told me that when she heard the blast as those -- the blast as those buildings were coming down, she thought it was

judgment day. Another man said that after the horror of this experience, he doesn't want to have any children anymore.

So, people are traumatized, but at the same time, ironically, below me and Gaza's main square, there are families out enjoying for the first time in

11 days the ability to go out and socialize and enjoy the warm Spring weather. There's a sense that for now, the worst is past. But I think

there's also a deep foreboding that in the absence of some sort of resolution of this conflict writ-large, there will be some time, months,

perhaps years away another war. Hala?

GORANI: All right, thanks very much Ben Wedeman is live in Gaza this evening. All right, we'll get back to Gaza-Israel a little bit later in the

program. We'll have analysis, is this a band-aid, the ceasefire? After all, the violence, the level of violence we saw over 11 days, that has died

down.

But have we solved the root cause of the problem of what led to that conflict in the first place? Let's talk a little bit about a G-20 virtual

health summit. The European Union is promising vaccine health for the world's poorer nations. The EU says it's going to invest more than a

billion dollars building vaccine production hubs in Africa, and it's vowing major dose donations this year.

[14:10:00]

But many people in Europe are focused on an issue much closer to home. The vaccine passports that will bring back traveling within the EU this Summer,

the bloc says its digital COVID-19 certificate will be ready to use by July 1st. Delia Gallagher joins me now. So, let's take those in reverse order,

let's start with these vaccine passports.

First of all, I spoke with the Swedish Foreign Minister, I asked her for details, she said those are still being worked out. Obviously, if these are

due to launch on July 1st, technically-speaking, I mean, logistically, how are they going to arrive at a vaccine passport that can be read and

recognized by every member country?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, let me tell you something, Hala, we just heard from the European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen

who was speaking at a press conference following the G-20 Global Health Summit and she talked about it and she said it's going to be ready for

June.

She said there are still technical issues to be worked out amongst member states, and some states are ahead of others on that. But according to her,

they are aiming for a June roll out of this passport which of course is technically called a European Digital COVID Certificate.

She also said, Hala, that eventually they're aiming to allow international travelers, third countries as they say to plug into that data. So, they're

looking to expand the database as well. So, we do have to see how it's going to work out because member states are busy right now trying to figure

out exactly what they need to do.

Apparently, it can be digital or on paper. It's going to include your vaccination dates, whether you recently had COVID and any recent COVID

test. Obviously, they need to do something like this to allow freedom of movement throughout the European countries, but still very unclear exactly

how each European member state is going to deal with it.

Another big question is whether they're going to recognize Russian and Chinese vaccines because of course, this will be only for --

GORANI: Right --

GALLAGHER: Those vaccines that are recognized within Europe. Hala.

GORANI: All right, I mean, we are all eager. We're all eager for various reasons. Some people want to go on vacation, other people like myself just

simply want to visit family and it cannot come soon enough, the ability to cross borders. Let's talk also about the promise, the investment in vaccine

hub production, facilities in Africa because scientists have been telling us for over a year now, none of us are safe unless all of us are

vaccinated. How is that going to work?

GALLAGHER: Well, look, at the G-20 health summit, there were pledges certainly to finance regional vaccination production especially in Africa.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said their focus is on Africa because currently they're only producing 1 percent of the vaccines that they need.

But that's obviously a long term solution. So, the more short term solution are these donations, pharmaceutical companies are vowing to donate 1.3

billion doses of vaccines, and that's in addition to the 100 million doses by the end of the year from European countries.

That Italian Prime Minister Mario Draghi said was a staggering amount which he thinks will change the landscape. So, there was some good news, at

least, short term out of this global health summit and then the long term issue of developing these vaccine production hubs in Africa, Hala.

GORANI: All right, Delia, thanks very much. Delia Gallagher live from Rome. I told you at the top of the hour about the royal family in the news.

Well, the royal princes are slamming the "BBC" after an inquiry revealed how the channel landed that bombshell interview with the late Princess

Diana that we all either watched or remember or have seen since.

The investigation found that "BBC" journalist Martin Bashir used deceitful message -- methods to secure the landmark interview and that the "BBC"

later covered that up. Prince Harry says the "BBC's" actions exposed the, quote, "culture of exploitation" and unethical practices that ultimately

took his mother's life. So, he's making a link between the two. And in his new "Apple TV" show, Prince Harry discussed how he coped with his mother,

Princess Diana's tragic death. This is part of what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY CHARLES ALBERT DAVID, DUKE OF SUSSEX: I was willing to drink, I was willing to take drugs. I was willing to try and do the things that made me

feel less like I was feeling. But I slowly became aware that, OK, I wasn't drinking Monday to Friday, but I would probably drink a week's worth in one

day on a Friday or a Saturday night.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:15:00]

GORANI: Well, Scott McLean who is following this story joins me now. So, you know, Prince Harry is being very candid about the fact that he was

abusing drugs and alcohol to cope, to self soothe after the death of his mother for many years.

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, he is also, Hala, taking a huge swipe at the British tabloid press in this new series that he has co-

produced with Oprah Winfrey. In it, he talks about the anger that he felt after the death of his mother, Princess Diana which he blames squarely the

paparazzi for. It's also important to remember though that the driver of the vehicle that Diana was in at the time when it crashed was also legally

drunk. Either way though, Harry says that he never really dealt with the trauma of that experience. He was encouraged to push those feelings, sweep

them under the rug.

It wasn't until his late 20s that you heard there, when he started abusing drugs and alcohol, binge-drinking to try to suppress those feelings. It

wasn't until he met Meghan four years that he began therapy, something he says he continued up until this day, Hala.

GORANI: And he did talk about his wife Meghan as well, and talked about some of the suicidal thoughts that she had. He provided more detail -- more

details on that.

MCLEAN: Yes, you remember, this was a huge thing that came out of the original Oprah Winfrey interview that he and Meghan did back in March. She

talked about these suicidal thoughts that he -- that she had had, what she describes as, you know, the establishment of the royal family's inability

to really find her the help that she was seeking.

In this new series, Harry expands upon that, saying that Meghan not only discussed her suicidal thoughts, but also the practicalities of how she

actually planned to take her own life, ultimately deciding not to because she didn't want to leave him with another experience of losing another

woman in his life. There's another intense segment of this series, Hala, where she -- he discusses what he -- his view of how the British tabloid

press was racist toward Meghan. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID: My biggest regret is not making more of a stance earlier on in my relationship with my wife and calling out the racism when I did. History

was repeating itself. My mother was chased to her death while she was in a relationship with someone that wasn't white. And now look what's happened.

You were talking about history repeating itself, they're not going to stop until she dies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCLEAN: One of the most surprising things that Prince Harry said in that interview, Hala, is that he believed that in that -- in the Oprah interview

that he had left enough space for reconciliation with his family. Instead though, he accused the media of conspiring with what he calls the firm, the

business end of the royal family to pump out this story that was published in "The Times" newspaper here in London and accusing Meghan of bullying her

staff to the point of tears. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID: The cause of their headlines and that combined effort of the firm and the media to smear her. I was woken up in the middle of the night to

her crying in her pillow because she doesn't want to wake me up because I'm already carrying too much. That's heartbreaking. I held her. We talked. She

cried and she cried and she cried.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCLEAN: And Hala, just in case you were holding out any hope at all of Harry and Meghan reconciling with the family and becoming working members

of the royal family again, I would not hold your breath. Harry says in this series that he has no regrets about leaving his job as a working member of

the royal family, and says that he's learned more about himself in the last four years in his time with Meghan than he has in the previous 32 years of

his life. Hala?

GORANI: Well, I don't think he was leaving any room for doubt there in any of his answers that he was -- that he was considering becoming a working

member of the royal family again. Scott McLean, thanks very much for that.

We were talking about that interview with Princess Diana from all those years ago, what the outrage over the "BBC's" actions in securing that

interview. That outrage is only growing. Prince Harry's brother is also weighing in. The metropolitan police have announced that they'll be

assessing the report to see whether it contains any new evidence. Here is Max Foster with a look at the high stakes for the "BBC".

MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT: Hala, two fundamental issues here, the initial deceit by Martin Bashir that he used to secure this interview

or at least get the introduction to Princess Diana. But also, the "BBC's" response to that deceit which was effectively according to lord Dyson to

cover it up.

[14:20:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER (voice-over): It was the bombshell interview that stunned the world.

DIANA FRANCES SPENCER, LATE PRINCESS OF WALES: Well, it was three of us in this marriage. So, it was a bit crowded.

FOSTER: Princess Diana discussing the collapse of her marriage with Prince Charles nearly 26 years ago. And now, Prince William and Prince Harry are

slamming the "BBC" after an independent investigation commissioned by the broadcaster revealed how journalist Martin Bashir secured the interview

with their late mother.

PRINCE WILLIAM ARTHUR PHILIP LOUIS, DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE: It brings indescribable sadness to know that the "BBC's" failures contributed

significantly to her fear, paranoia and isolation that I remember those final years with her.

FOSTER: The 127-page report concluding Bashir used deceitful behavior and created fake bank statements to arrange the meeting with Diana. It also

criticized the actions of the "BBC", saying that without justification, the "BBC" covered up his press logs, such facts as it had been able to

establish about how Mr. Bashir secured the interview. The Duke of Cambridge also noting his concerns about how the "BBC" ignored alarm bells about

Bashir's campaign to gain access to his mother.

LOUIS: But what saddens me most is that if the "BBC" had properly investigated the complaints and concerns first raised in 1995, my mother

would have known that she had been deceived.

FOSTER: Prince Harry spreading the blame not only to the "BBC", but also to coverage of Diana by other outlets and publications at the time. In a

statement, he says, "to those who have taken some form of accountability, thank you for owning it. That's the first step towards justice and truth.

Yet, what deeply concerns me is the practices like these and even worse are still widespread today." The Duke of Sussex who's had his own issues with

tabloids recently discussing his ongoing struggles with his mother's death and the steps he's taking to heal.

DAVID: I was so angry with what happened to her, and the fact that there was no justice at all.

FOSTER: Diana's brother also speaking out, saying the interview caused her to lose trust in other people.

EARL SPENCER, PRINCESS DIANA'S BROTHER: Well, the irony is that I met Martin Bashir on the 31st of August, 1995, because exactly two years later

she died. And I do draw a line between the two events.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: There's no doubt the stakes are very high here for the "BBC". And they may have gone a bit higher as well because the metropolitan police

have now said that they're going to look at the Dyson report, this investigation into the dealings around this interview and see if there is

evidence for criminal investigation. Hala?

GORANI: All right, thanks very much for that, Max. And for those who follow this story, remember, there were actual receipts that were forged

to try to convince the Diana team and her brother in particular that there were some people paid to spy on her.

So, all of that potentially will be the subject of a police -- of a closer look by the police. We're going to take a quick break, when we come back,

Olympic officials say the pandemic will not stop them from hosting the Summer games, but it will force them to make some adjustments. Details on

how they plan to keep people safe, after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:25:00]

GORANI: The International Olympic Committee is insisting that this Summer's Tokyo games will be held in a safe and secure manner, whether or

not there's a state of emergency from COVID. Officials say they're implementing some strict health measures, bringing in doctors, scaling down

the size of foreign delegations. In fact, they've already had to impose restrictions on some of the torch relays and even more changes could

follow. Selina Wang is in Tokyo.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SELINA WANG, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Olympic officials insists that the Tokyo games can be held safely even if Japan is

still under a state of emergency. At a virtual press conference, the IOC said that they're working with Japan to bring medical personnel from

abroad to help with COVID-19 counter measures. Officials also say they expect more than 80 percent of people in the Olympic village to be

vaccinated by the games. The IOC is trying to reassure growing anxiety in Japan.

But opposition continues to mount according to a recent local poll, more than 80 percent of people in Japan do not want the games held this Summer.

Japan has been struggling to contain a fourth wave of COVID-19 cases with less than 2 percent of the population fully vaccinated.

Tokyo and large swaths at the country remain under a state of emergency and the government just added another prefecture Okinawa to the state of

emergency list. Efforts to prevent the spread of COVID-19 at the games which includes social distancing, regular testing and contact-tracing have

failed to satisfy the medical community.

A group representing more than 6,000 doctors in Tokyo have urged the government to cancel the Olympics. With more than 11,000 athletes from more

than 200 countries and tens of thousands of unvaccinated volunteers, medical experts say that it is impossible to keep a safe bubble during the

Olympics.

They fear that the Olympics could further push Japan already over stretched medical system to the brink. While those who opposed the Olympics tell me

that these games are putting politics and money ahead of people's lives, IOC officials say that it is now clearer than ever that these games will be

safe for everyone. Selina Wang, CNN, Tokyo.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: And still to come, the scars of war. How 11 days of conflict between Israel and Hamas have changed this little girl's life forever.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:30:00]

GORANI: Back to our top story, the ceasefire that's ended 11 days of war between Israel and Hamas. Some families in Gaza are returning home today to

discover there's not much left to return to. A lifetime of possessions wiped out in a single airstrike. Still, some of them say they're lucky to

be alive and not seriously injured. CNN's Arwa Damon visited one four-year- old girl, who's now in the hospital, after the roof of her home collapsed in an Israeli attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (TEXT): What's your name?

SARAH (TEXT): Sarah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (TEXT): How old are you?

SARAH (TEXT): Four.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (TEXT): Do you go to school?

SARAH (TEXT): Yes. Kindergarten.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sarah has injuries to her skull, lungs, arm and leg. But doctors say the worst are the multiple pieces of shrapnel

lodged in her spine and spinal cord. "She can't feel her legs," Sarah's aunt says. And doctors fear she may never again, especially not if she

stays here." The family says there was no advanced warning before the strike. They had no idea what was coming.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OMAR (TEXT): Susu was sitting on the floor. Suddenly the rocket hit above our apartment and the roof of the room fell on us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DAMON: Susu. That's what her older brother, Omar, calls her. "She needs an advanced neurosurgical center. We don't have those in Gaza. Doctors said

there is hope that she will be able to stand on her feet," her father, Zahir, says. He's begging for help. He wants his little girl to have her

life back, a life filled with gleeful cries of joy. A life where she can stand on her own. "She's struggling psychologically," her father says. "She

keeps asking me 'Why, daddy? Why did they have to do this to me?'" Arwa Damon, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: Let's turn now to the broader issues in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and how the most recent war may have changed the situation on the

ground, or not. Tim Marshall is the author of the new book, The Power of Geography. Thanks, Tim Marshall, for being with us. This is a Band-Aid,

this ceasefire, isn't it?

TIM MARSHALL, AUTHOR, "THE POWER OF GEOGRAPHY": A Band-Aid, yes. Much needed one. We had to staunch -- the flow of blood will be staunched, I

believe, for some time. I suspect it'll hold. But, you know, I mean you don't have to be a genius to repeat what is so obvious unless you deal with

the underlying causes. It will happen again. I think the only reason it stopped is that each side can claim a form of victory.

On the one side, you've got Israel, which, the moment this began, knew it not only had to really hit Hamas, and it's been waiting for years, knowing

this moment would come, but it's been very interesting the targeting. It's been sending a message not just to Hamas, it's been sending a message to

Hezbollah next door in Lebanon as well, saying you see these buildings were brought down that are owned by the multimillionaires that lead Hamas, the

banks that we've attacked, et cetera, et cetera? We'll do the same to you if you learn the wrong lesson from this, and I think that they may have

achieved something of that.

[14:35:03]

On the other side, Hamas knew when they launched their first missiles that this would end in X days with X hundred Palestinian dead, but -- and only a

handful of Israelis, because it's always like that, but they knew that they can position themselves as the defender of the Palestinian people. They

mean to push the Palestinian Authority out of the West Bank whenever the elections are. And I think therefore they have -- they can claim victory in

that. They are now regarded as the defender of the Palestinians.

GORANI: You think they're regarded by most Palestinians that way? I mean, I wonder. I'm just asking that because --

MARSHALL: Yes.

GORANI: -- I wonder among those who protested against forced evictions in East Jerusalem, those who were upset with the storming of the Aqsa Mosque,

you know, the event that obviously preceded by several days, the first -- the launching of the first Hamas rocket, do they find -- do they think of

Hamas as their representatives?

MARSHALL: I think many of them do. And I think one of the reasons that President Abbas of the Palestinian Authority who really only governs in the

West Bank and not in Gaza, because Hamas controller, as you know.

GORANI: Yes.

MARSHALL: I think the reason he postponed the upcoming elections is because he knew he might well lose to Hamas, because they have a real foothold in

the West Bank now. And they're gaining in strength. And I think they might well win in that election if one was held. Because what happened two weeks

ago, after what was considered an absolute outrage in the al-Aqsa and the threats of the evictions at Sheikh Jarrah, is that the Palestinian

Authority actually did very, very little. I'm not making a case for or against anybody's actions, simply seeking to explain it.

GORANI: Yes.

MARSHALL: Whereas the group that stood up and said we will not stand for this was Hamas. And that's - that appeals to quite a lot of, especially

younger Palestinians, who've all they've ever known is the situation that they're in. And that's why, at this point, I think actually Hamas --

GORANI: Well --

MARSHALL: -- has gained some strength. Now, look, you know --

GORANI: So -- yes.

MARSHALL: -- the region and you know that the reality in Gaza is that even if there are some dissidents, and I don't know how many they are. They're

smart enough to keep their mouth shut because you don't really openly criticize Hamas.

GORANI: But the problem --

MARSHALL: In the wider region -- sorry.

GORANI: -- as I -- if I can just jump in, the Israeli actions here are strengthening -- they're having the opposite effect, right? I mean, let's

forget what side you're on, who you support, the military solution, over and over again, is like banging your head against the same brick wall. It

is absolutely not solving the problem. It's not bringing peace.

MARSHALL: Yes.

GORANI: It's bringing nothing but misery to the Palestinians. And also --

MARSHALL: Yes.

GORANI: -- fear on the Israeli side, because these Hamas rockets are landing on civilian area -- in civilian areas. So from the --

MARSHALL: Yes.

GORANI: -- Israeli perspective, if you -- if this is the end result of a failing strategy every single time, why keep repeating it?

MARSHALL: Yes. Well, they would say that they try to make peace. And, of course, the other side says no way, you only ever keep robbing our land and

mistreating us. But what happened to -- one of the first things that happened was when they left Gaza, and they got rockets, rightly or wrongly,

you can make the argument that they're still corralled. Well, they are, the Gazans are corralled.

So the rockets kept coming. And it was at that point that the most of the Israeli public, including many of the liberal, which is --

GORANI: Yes.

MARSHALL: -- a shrinking base, they just gave up, and the walls went higher up and the keys were thrown away. I mean I don't know how -- the last time

you were there, I know you're well-traveled. But increasingly, Israelis just live behind these walls in relative peace and in relative prosperity.

And they're not listening anymore. Now they're forced to listen when something like this happens. But this one may buy them another few years of

peace.

GORANI: True.

MARSHALL: I don't think this is going to change the dynamic. And you've got to prepare in mind the wider aspects of this. We all know who gave those

rockets to Hamas, it was the Iranians, the Fajr-5 and the Sejjil. They came in through the tunnels. Why did Iran do that? Iran has to break the new

detente in the Middle East. You know the Gulf States have made their peace with Israel up to an extent.

GORANI: Yes.

MARSHALL: Iran cannot have that. Because if the Americans are slowly leaving the Middle East, the Gulf Nations will look around for a new

friend. And it might be Israel. Iran must break that new detente hence --

GORANI: Yes.

MARSHALL: -- they're on that particular side. And it was very noticeable, I thought, out of the capitals in the Emiratis, of course, there was ritual

condemnation, but really there was no ambassadors we call --

GORANI: There was mainly silence. There was mainly -- it was mainly silence in the first few days. But --

[14:40:01]

MARSHALL: Yes.

GORANI: -- one last one for you, Tim, because Hamas and Gaza, that's obviously one angle of the story. Another angle is what has morphed into

what many people outside of the region believe is a battle for the civil rights of Palestinians, that the evictions in East Jerusalem are not a land

dispute, that they are uprooting Palestinians have been for generations in that part of the city, to remove them and replace them with Jewish

Israelis.

That has -- I've never really seen, in all my years covering the region, so much interest outside of the Middle East, from people who are now seeing

this as a battle for some form of civil rights for Palestinians. Will that change the equation?

MARSHALL: Well, I hope it does. Because, you know, there has clearly been an injustice over the decades. And, you know, I have mixed with some of the

settler movement, people who are amongst the most violent, racist people you'll ever come across. But forgive me for being not optimistic on this,

because there's been a shift in Israeli society. As I've said, some of the people just get on with they're having a fairly decent life and just behind

the walls, but there's a growing extremist religious sect now and they're getting more and more powerful in politics.

So, if you want to have a government, it's a coalition government, and you have to go to the religious and the religious say, well, our prices, places

like Sheikh Jarrah. So, I just don't see where the breakthrough is going to come from.

There's got to be some new thinking. And there's got to be some compromise, but it's in short supply on both sides still. When there is compromise on

both sides, then people like Biden can start pushing. And let's hope this is a catalyst for that. I hope you're right that there's more interest in

the subject. We'll find out in the coming months.

GORANI: Tim Marshall, the author of the new book, The Power of Geography. Thanks very much for joining us live on the program --

MARSHALL: Thank you, Hala.

GORANI: -- this evening. We'll be right back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GORANI: All right. Now to something completely different. Earlier this week, we told you about a famous rock formation in the Galapagos that

collapsed into the sea. Erosion caused a natural -- this natural bridge called Darwin's Arch to crumble, and many conservationists are

understandably heartbroken.

[14:45:04]

It is shining a light on the growing push to restore plant and wildlife on the Galapagos Islands. Even Hollywood star Leonardo DiCaprio is putting his

fame, his millions, and his social media behind the efforts. With me now is wildlife veterinarian, Paula Castano. And we are looking at Leonardo

DiCaprio's Instagram right now. And there you are, as the latest post, you took over DiCaprio, his Instagram feed. Talk to us about this initiative,

this rewilding initiative of the Galapagos.

PAULA CASTANO, WILDLIFE VETERINARIAN: Yes. So thank you very much for the interview. So this initiative of rewild Galapagos, what it's looking

forward is to be able to work collaboratively between all the groups that have been working here for decades, like the Galapagos National Park Island

Conservation, and several other partners to be able to scale even farther the projects that we have been developing so far.

And with this, we are looking not only to be able to restore islands here in the Galapagos, like nine islands across the whole archipelago, but we

are looking even farther into the future to span this project, even to the other archipelagos in Latin America around the Pacific Ocean.

GORANI: So let's talk about the Galapagos and this initiative, lots of money behind it. DiCaprio has pledged millions. I think the total budget

for it is $43 million. What does it mean exactly? Explain to someone who doesn't know, you know, anything about how this works. What does rewilding

the Galapagos mean?

CASTANO: Yes, of course. So rewilding, the Galapagos means that we are looking to reframe the way that we are working for nature conservation. We

are looking to work collaboratively and being able to have -- restore all of these islands like before now, but also the ecosystems in where the

communities are also involved and part of these processes.

So, this is not something new. This is something that we have done for many years. But the idea with bringing all of this additional funding and

support is that we are going to be able to scale this even further and implement projects like Floreana Island, where we are looking to rewild 13

species.

GORANI: Right. We're talking about land lizards, owls, hawks, all sorts of exotic -- there's a very attractive, handsome land lizard that looks like

he may be happy on the Galapagos Islands. Have you met Leonard? How did this come about, this partnership with this big Hollywood star?

CASTANO: Yes. So a couple of like a month or so ago, he was here in the Galapagos. He came with other people to be able to know, like, firsthand

the work that we were doing, like the Galapagos National Park Island Conservation. And he met with us and also other environmental heroes in

Ecuador, to be able to see the work that was happening here on the ground.

GORANI: Yes.

CASTANO: And he was very interested to see what was happening and he decided to kind of jump together with others to develop this new campaign,

and get in together with Re:wild that used to be global wildlife conservation, and now it's been renamed to be Re:wild.

GORANI: Well, Paula Castano, best of luck to you. It's a great opportunity and a great initiative. And I hope it's a success and that, as you

mentioned, it can spread to other islands in need of being rewilded and repopulated. Thanks so much, Paula. Still to come, get ready for the

wackiest --

CASTANO: Yes. No, thank you.

GORANI: -- outfits, the glitziest stars, the craziest performances, everyone, Eurovision is back. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:50:54]

GORANI: Let's be honest, the last 14 months have been pretty rubbish. So what better way to cheer up the continent at least of Europe than a few

hours of the most bonkers escapism imaginable? Yes, Eurovision is back and it's as mad as ever. It's taking place in Rotterdam and there will be

crowds in the venue. The city is in the mood, even the traffic lights are having a little boogie. One of the songs in the final is Iceland with this

catchy number.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DADI & GAGNAMAGNID, SINGERS: Together for a decade now, still everyday I'm loving you more. If I could do it all again, I'd probably do it all the

same as before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Well, this was last year's breakout hit, was by this band, by the way, this Icelandic band. Of course, COVID couldn't just stay away and

Iceland have had to pull out of the live shows due to one of the band members catching the virus. They will, instead, use an earlier recording.

The lead singer of the band spoke to CNN earlier about how that recording happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DADI FREYR, LEAD SINGER, DADI & GAGNAMAGNID: I'm really happy, like, right before we did that rehearsal, like we knew that we had one chance to get a

recording that we would use if we couldn't there and then step on stage. We never thought that was going to happen. But still, right before we started,

I said to the guys, like, this might be us competing in Eurovision so let's perform like that. And I think we all did a really good job. There's a few

lighting and camera moments that I would have changed but the essence of the act is there.

GORANI: Well, Ben Beaumont-Thomas is a music editor of The Guardian. He'll be one of the hundreds of millions of people watching Saturday night. Are

you excited it's back this year, Ben?

BEN BEAUMONT-THOMAS, MUSIC EDITOR, The GUARDIAN: Absolutely, yes. It was unbearable having a year off from all this camp and extravagance last year

due to the pandemic canceling that year's Eurovision. So, yes, I can't wait.

GORANI: Explain to the world. I mean, the non-European, non-Eurovision- loving world, because I love Eurovision since I was a kid, I would watch it, why it's such a big deal in the -- in Europe.

BEAUMONT-THOMAS: Yes, well, and indeed the world, I mean, you have 182 million people around the world watch this. But I think it is very much a

sort of Pan-European cultural celebration. And the reason for why everyone loves it, I think is because Eurovision is some way that every single human

emotion kind of gets dolled up to the most ridiculous degree. So joy is extra joyful. Sadness is incredibly lachrymose. Energy is just sort of

popping off from every single performance amongst all of the kind of dance music acts.

So, it really is this almost quite extreme place. And people love it for that. That energy is something you can't really tap into at this scale,

really outside of a major sporting event. Certainly I think in terms of music, this is most globally important event there is each year.

GORANI: And you don't usually tune in because the best quality -- I mean usually it's pop, that's pretty generic. The outfits are wild. I mean

you're not -- I mean -- and by the way, I was saying to my team earlier, what's made it much more fun is Twitter and social media, because when you

watch the event live, and then kind of just click on the hashtags, the various hashtags that pop up, Eurovision, Eurovision, 2021, et cetera,

everybody's really funny comments are what make this such a fun global party, really. It's like a big cocktail party where everybody's talking to

each other.

BEAUMONT-THOMAS: Yes, that's right. I think social media has really kind of influenced that and then heightened that, that sense of communality.

[14:55:00]

But I think actually, while there are some, rather, as you say, cheesy tracks, and the music often tends towards very sort of sentimental ballads

or quite kind of standard Euro pop dance type tracks, some of these can be really, really excellent.

GORANI: Yes.

BEAUMONT-THOMAS: And I think they have some absolutely extraordinary choreos each year, like this year, the Ukraine entry takes a kind of

traditional folk song form, and then turns it into something that you'd hear in the most kind of ear-bleedingly the loud techno club in the middle

of a warehouse in Central Europe. I mean, it's incredibly high tempo, energetic dance music paired with Ukrainian folk. So it's these kinds of

weird splicings, you simply don't really sort of see it at this scale anywhere, I don't think so. It can be really exciting.

And the other thing to mention is the politics can really kind of come through and that's why you can't make a kind of really strong, vociferous

political statement, because you'll be sort of fined if you do. There are subtle little hints to politics like the host nation, the Netherlands,

their song this year addresses the specter of colonialism and the pain of slavery. So you also have quite a great deal of depth to these songs as

well.

GORANI: Yes, and you had that that Will Ferrell movie, which frankly, I think everyone should watch, last year about the Icelandic entry to NS

Icelandic entry to Eurovision because I found that the Icelandic band that last year obviously there was a Eurovision, but their entry this year is

great, too. I'm a huge fan of theirs.

BEAUMONT-THOMAS: That's right. And everyone absolutely expected them to win last year with Think About Things was their fantastic song from last year,

but, yes, this year, it's equally as charming. They have equally charming, ridiculous sort of dance moves that you might see in a kind of low budget

school play. But that's -- that sort of amateurish vibe almost is quite endearing against the sort of more highly drilled athletic sort of dancing

and staging that you see in Eurovision, so I fancy their chances.

GORANI: Well, thanks very much, Ben Beaumont-Thomas for joining us. We really appreciate your perspective.

BEAUMONT-THOMAS: Thank you.

GORANI: I'll be watching. The music editor of The Guardian. I -- and we'll see how many viewers total we'll get. Hundreds of millions. Thanks so much.

And thanks for watching tonight. Have a great weekend, if it's your weekend and do stay with CNN. "Quest Means Business" is up next.

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END