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Hala Gorani Tonight

ICIJ Publishes Pandora Papers; ISIS Claims Responsibility for Deadly Blast in Afghanistan; A Facebook Whistleblower Accuses the Site for Choosing Profits Over Safety; Fired Haitian Justice Minister Says PM Henry Should Resign; Australia Hopes To Welcome Tourists Before Christmas; California Oil Spill Affecting Local Ecology And Economy. Aired 2-3p EST

Aired October 04, 2021 - 14:00   ET



LYNDA KINKADE, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone, live from CNN in Atlanta, I'm Lynda Kinkade in for Hala Gorani, good to have you with us. Tonight, a two-

year investigation by hundreds of journalists details how the world's rich and powerful allegedly managed to keep billions of dollars hidden. We'll

have more on the so-called Pandora Papers.

Then a deadly explosion in Afghanistan, but this time, targeting the Taliban. We'll be live in Kabul on how the group are responding. And later,

yet, another crisis for Facebook as a former employee accuses the company of choosing profits over safety. Well, we are getting a new deep look into

the financial dealings of some of the world's most powerful people. The result of a two-year investigation by hundreds of journalists worldwide.

The so-called Pandora Papers is a huge trove of private, financial documents revealing how the rich and powerful allegedly kept billions of

dollars beyond the reach of taxes, creditors and accountability.

Almost 12 million financial records were obtained by reporters from the international consortium of journalists and other news outlets. They say

they detail double the number offshore accounts identified in the earlier Panama Papers including more than 130 people listed by "Forbes" as

billionaires, and more than 330 public officials in more than 90 countries and territories. We want to know if CNN has not done its own analysis of

legalities here. CNN business reporter Clare Sebastian has been digging into the allegations and joins us now from New York. So, Clare, a lot of

developing countries find their latest named here in these papers. Talk us through them.

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN BUSINESS REPORTER: Yes, interesting, Lynda, because these are countries that of course, can ill-afford to miss out on the tax

receipts from the money that might have been funneled to offshore entities. I want to start with Kenya because the president there, Uhuru Kenyatta, his

family, according to the ICIJ has been accumulating wealth in offshore tax havens for decades. Now, they say that they owned at least seven entities

based in the British Virgin Islands and Panama, which are of course known tax havens. They have apparently amassed about $30 million in wealth. Now,

some of these companies were created before Mr. Kenyatta was president, some are still active according to the ICIJ.

But according to the "BBC", which is one of the partner organizations in this massive journalism project, there's no suggestion that the Kenyatta

family either stole or hid state assets in these offshore companies. Another reason this is interesting and will get a lot of attention in Kenya

is of course, Uhuru Kenyatta has vowed to fight corruption, he continued to sort of take this tone in his reaction today. He said "these reports will

go a long way in enhancing the financial transparency and openness that we require in Kenya and around the globe. The movement of illicit funds,

proceeds of crime and corruption thrive in an environment of secrecy and darkness."

Now, of course, there's no suggestion he's done anything illegal or his family has. The problem with putting money in offshore entities is that, it

can of course, it can hide illegal things being done with it, but we don't know that as of yet. Another country getting a lot of attention here,

Lynda, is Jordan. King Abdullah II of Jordan, according to the ICIJ, purchased 14 homes worth more than $106 million. They are mainly in the

U.K. and the U.S., done through front companies, registered in tax havens. The reporting goes into detail according to the ICIJ saying that

accountants and lawyers in Switzerland and the British Virgin Islands again formed shell companies on the king's behalf, and that they made plans to

shield his name from public view.

Now, the Royal Hashemite Court in Jordan has come out with a long statement, at no point by the way do they deny that these properties exist

or that they were created using offshore or bought using offshore entities, but they say, it is no secret that his majesty owns a number of apartments

and residences in the United States and the United Kingdom. This is not unusual nor improper. These properties are not publicized out of security

and privacy concerns and not out of secrecy or an attempt to hide them as these reports have claimed.

Any allegations that link these private properties to public funds or assistance are baseless and deliberate attempts to distort facts. So, they

are pushing back strongly against these allegations while, of course, not denying them. But I think -- well, we don't know yet what the legal fall-

out of any of this might be, there's no suggestion of any illegal action as of yet. The political fall-out is something to consider.

KINKADE: Yes, I want to ask you a little bit more about that, Clare, because as you say, no one -- it's unclear at this point in time if anyone

actually broke any laws whatsoever.


But what about the political fall-out? What could we see happen?

SEBASTIAN: Yes, we don't get -- it took years actually, Lynda, with the Panama Papers, the previous reporting on this, to get any sense of illegal

activity. But we might get into a more immediate sense of the political fall-out in a country like the Czech Republic which has parliamentary

elections this week. The prime minister who is running for re-election is named in this report, Andrej Babis; he is a billionaire populist prime

minister. And he, according to the ICIJ secretly moved $22 million through offshore companies to buy an estate on the French Riviera in 2009, that was

before he entered politics. That is one thing.

There's another point to this which comes from the partner organization of the ICIJ in the Czech Republic. They say that he has filed asset

declaration forms as a politician, and they say that on none of these asset declaration forms does this property or those offshore entities appear.

Now, his reaction, he is saying that this was deliberately done ahead of those elections. In a tweet, he said, "so it is here, I was waiting, what

will they pull out right before the elections to harm me and to influence Czech elections. There is no case that they can pull against me during the

time I am in politics."

That, of course, it's not related to the time he was in politics. He says, "I have never done anything unlawful or bad, but it does not stop them

trying to slander me again and to try to influence the Czech parliamentary elections." He did not respond to the ICIJ's request for comment, and of

course, this is just days away from elections and he has a narrow lead as of now.

KINKADE: All right, Clare Sebastian for us, joining us from New York. Thanks so much. Well, ISIS is claiming responsibility for Sunday's deadly

explosion outside a Mosque in Kabul. An unknown number of people were killed when the blast ripped through a crowd where senior Taliban members

had gathered for a funeral. Hours later, the Taliban says it completely destroyed an ISIS cell in the northern part of the capital, killing all of

its members. Well, we are also hearing that 11 suspected ISIS members were arrested in Kabul today during a security sweep, and that's where CNN's

Clarissa Ward, she joins me now live.

Clarissa, firstly, I want to start on that attack because that was the deadliest we've seen in Kabul since the U.S. withdrew from Afghanistan.

What more are you learning about that and the raids that followed?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, CNN has spoken to a source with the Ministry of Interior who tells us that seven people

were killed in that attack, five civilians and two members of the Taliban. And it appears that the target was the Taliban's leadership who had

gathered at the Mosque for the funeral prayers of the mother of Zabiullah Mujahid, who is the group's spokesperson. Mujahid himself was not injured,

but what's interesting is that the Taliban has really been trying to keep a very tight lid on all of this.

Journalists who have been trying to get into the Mosque found that they could not do so at all. And on those subsequent raids that you mentioned,

which people have been sharing on social media, the sound of gunfire throughout the night, some images of fires in a Herhana(ph), neighborhood

in northern Kabul as you mentioned, it has been impossible for local journalists or international journalists to get close to those areas to try

to get more information about who was killed or how many people were killed. We have heard from the Taliban spokesperson Mujahid, that a number

of ISIS militants were killed as a result of those raids, and that an ISIS sort of safe house or unit, if you like, was also destroyed as a result of

those operations.

But there has not been a huge amount of transparency at all as to who was behind them, and it is worth noting that the Taliban has yet to even blame

the Mosque attack yesterday on the Taliban, though, as you mentioned, it does -- on ISIS, though, as you mentioned, ISIS has come forward and

claimed responsibility themselves. Lynda.

KINKADE: Right. So, we had obviously the Taliban claiming that they have destroyed an ISIS center as well as ISIS operatives. They have carried out

a number of arrests. Clarissa, what more can you tell us about ISIS-K in Afghanistan and where it has developed cells?

WARD: So, I think what's probably confusing for a lot of our viewers is why ISIS would be attacking the Taliban because they're both militant

fundamentalist groups. But essentially ISIS sees the Taliban as being sell- outs and being too influenced by foreign powers, whether it's Pakistani Intelligence Services or Qatari Intelligence Services, and they don't think

that they are implementing a sort of pure form of Sharia. When we interviewed a senior ISIS-K commander back before the fall of Kabul to the

Taliban, he complained that they were not chopping off enough hands.


And they -- you know, it's -- they're always difficult to get a sense of how widespread their support is. Their area of operations is limited to

really a couple of regions around Kunar and Nangarhar. There have been a number of attacks recently in the city of Jalalabad. And so, it's clear

that they are able to make life difficult for the Taliban and to pose a significant security challenge to them, but what's not clear is where this

goes from here. Does this evolve into a full-fledged insurgency or is the Taliban -- are the Taliban somehow able to contain it? At this stage, it

appears that despite the Taliban's best efforts, ISIS-K is not going away, Lynda.

KINKADE: It seems that way, all right. Clarissa Ward for us in Kabul, thanks so much for being there for us. Well, Facebook is embroiled in yet

another crisis after a former employee-turned whistleblower has accused it of putting profit over the public good. In an interview with the "CBS"

program "60 Minutes", Frances Haugen came forward as the whistleblower who leaked tens of thousands of pages of internal research and documents. Among

her claims, she said Facebook knows its platforms are used to spread hate.


FRANCES HAUGEN, FACEBOOK WHISTLEBLOWER: The thing I saw Facebook over and over again was, there were conflicts of interest between what was good for

the public and what was good for Facebook. And Facebook over and over again chose to optimize for its own interests like making more money. Facebook

has realized that if they change the algorithm to be safer, people will spend less time on the site, they'll click on less ads, they'll make less



KINKADE: Well, the question all of this raises is, can anybody make Facebook do anything about this? Well, Imran Ahmed is CEO of the Center for

Countering Digital Hate and joins us live now from New York. Good to have you with us. I want to first get your response to what we just heard from

the whistleblower.

IMRAN AHMED, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, CENTER FOR COUNTERING DIGITAL HATE: Well, it's an extraordinary and brave thing that Frances Haugen has done

coming forward in this way because what she's done is confirm what so many people have warned for a long time looking from the outside. What she's

done is sort of switched on the flood lights internally to Facebook and shown that those suspicions were right, that Facebook has not only known

about the harm it's creating in myriad ways, it's creating disinformation and that's poisoning our democracy, it's increasing the amount of hate in

our society, it's spreading misinformation about the vaccine that's undermined our pandemic response, that it's responsible for people dying.

But she's also said that these were the results of active tweeters by the company, that they have the chance to change, they heard the warnings, they

were being echoed internally. And it should make us incredibly angry that these -- the people running these companies have seemingly to you, to other

journalists lied again and again and said, actually, we're not familiar with these complaints that you're raising, we're not sure if that's true at


KINKADE: And the other thing that I found interesting was the whistleblower talking about how Instagram is harmful to large proportions

of the population, especially teenage girls, and Facebook's own research showed just that. Let's just take a listen.


HAUGEN: What's super tragic is Facebook's own research says as these young women begin to consume in this sort of content, they get more and more

depressed and it actually makes them use the app more. And so they end up in this feedback cycle where they hate their bodies more and more.

Facebook's own research says it is not just that Instagram is dangerous for teenagers, that it harms teenagers, it's that it is distinctly worse than

other forms of social media.


KINKADE: So there we heard about the impact on mental health, the psychology of teenage girls using this social platform. This is very

different from scandals, political scandals we have seen and discussed in the past. This is very relatable for parents, for teenagers, for the girls

themselves, and many are worried about this, right?

AHMED: And what this whistleblower has shown is that the platforms, both by their fundamental design, but also by the way that they operate, that

essentially they're one of the main ways in which we create relationships and which we judge ourselves against society. And what they've been doing

secretly is through what she describes as their algorithms. They've been turning up the heat. And so they've been creating it -- they've been making

those differences, those positional differences, those relative differences, the sense that we're not good enough, that we're not loud

enough, that we're not -- we're not beautiful enough.


They've been making them more powerful, and that's had a long-term effect on the mental health of young women. Now, we've seen that from the outside,

there have been changes in the number of young women, the prevalence, the percentage of young women who suffer mental health problems. And that's

been changing over time, and we've been wondering why? In the same way that we all wondered why these strange political outcome is happening. You know,

we look around the United States and think, is the Capitol riots, is this the America that we know and love? And saying, well, probably not.

Well, this is the reason why? And she's really laid out for us that Facebook and Instagram knowingly have caused damage to society, and this is

sort of like, you know, with tobacco where I mean, it was almost a language of tobacco as well. That they knew that if they reduced the amount of

nicotine in their platform, the addictiveness of their platform, they would make less money, so they just kept pumping up the levels.

KINKADE: Obviously, Facebook has grown much faster than anyone could have possibly anticipated. I just want to bring up some figures we've got

because its value has soared from $375 billion in 2018, now it's worth almost a trillion dollars. And at the same time its annual revenue is set

to double, from 2018 it was $56 billion, this year, in the first half of this year alone, it's already made $55 billion. Just incredible how big

it's got. Is it too big to manage? What sort of responsibility does Facebook have and do governments around the world have?

Because we know that the whistleblower is due to testify tomorrow here in the U.S.., in the U.S. Senate. What more can governments do?

AHMED: Well, what's extraordinary is that for companies so big that have such a profound influence on the way in which we create relationships,

share information, set values in our society, that these remain so unwilling to show how they work internally. There's such little

transparency. These are incredibly opaque companies. And what we're asking for is more transparency in the first instance. Look, we don't really want

to get into the business of regulating free speech and regulating what people can and cannot say.

The platforms have their rules and those seem fairly sensible, even though they're not enforced properly. What we want to know, how do your algorithms

work? How do you rank information? How do you decide whether or not to enforce your rules or not? So when you -- when something is reported, what

do you do about it and how do your economics work? So the advertising market -- and one of the things that Nick Clegg said the other day when he

was being interviewed was that, you know, ultimately, they're beholden to their advertisers.

I think their advertisers would like to know, where exactly are you placing our content? Where are you placing our ads? Because if you're placing them

next to stuff that's causing young girls to hate themselves, that's not necessarily a good look for a brand now, is it?

KINKADE: Exactly. You make some really good points, Imran Ahmed; CEO of the Center for Countering Digital Hate, good to get your perspective, thank


AHMED: Thanks.

KINKADE: Well, the company's day is going from bad to worse. Facebook, WhatsApp and Instagram have all been hit by big outages today, CNN's chief

media correspondent Brian Stelter is covering the story and joins us now. Brian, do we know what's behind those outages?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: We do not, but if you're logging on to Instagram, trying to use WhatsApp, you're finding it's not

working, you're not alone. This is a very widespread outage, one of the most -- one of the longest outages I've ever seen impact one of these big-

tech providers. You know, sometimes, Facebook will go down for 20 minutes, Twitter will go down for 20 minutes, but this has been going on for the

better part of three hours and Facebook has not yet explained it. I just got off the phone with a spokesman for the company, they have no update,

but they say in broad terms, we are aware of the problem, we're working to get things back to normal as quickly as possible.

To have this massive outage of all of Facebook's platforms the day after this whistleblower unveils her identity and comes forward is incredible,

because in some ways it is reinforcing the whistleblower's message that these platforms are addicting, that they have damaging consequences. You

know, and I think as people go on to their phones, try to click on their Instagram app, try to open up the app and they feel that tug where they

want to refresh and scroll some more and they can't, it kind of reinforces Frances Haugen's message.

KINKADE: Yes, it certainly does. And I want to ask you a little bit more, Brian, about the Facebook whistleblower and how Facebook was trying to

address misinformation. They did have additional protections in place before the insurrection, before the January 6th attack at the Capitol. You

spoke to the Vice President of Global Affairs for Facebook. How is Facebook defending all of this?


STELTER: Right, well, he says it's ludicrous to blame the January 6th riot on Facebook. This is Nick Clegg, formerly of course, a British -- you know,

a big -- a political big wig now, a top spokesman for Facebook. You know, his argument is, you know, what's going on in the United States with the

political chaos, with socio-economic factors, with many factors that all fuel the insurrection. He says it's ludicrous to point to Facebook. But the

whistleblower's argument is a little more nuanced. She says Facebook contributed to the conditions that led to the insurrection, and by, you

know, lowering the temperature for a while and then letting the temperature rise back up, as your prior guest said.

She says that was a betrayal of democracy. And I think that's ultimately why this story matters so much. Yes, the big tobacco comparisons are real

and we're going to hear more of those from senators. Tomorrow, there's going to be a hearing on Capitol Hill where this whistleblower will be

testifying, and we're going to hear more of those big tobacco comparisons, but no cigarette company had an impact on democracy the way that Facebook

has, and that's ultimately the big story here. It's about whether Facebook and platforms like it contribute positively in societies, in political

debates, or whether they cause those debates to become so poisonous, so toxic, so suffocating that people either tune out or they turn to


Certainly, her argument is that is what happens, people turn to extreme voices and, frankly, we've seen that in eastern Europe and other parts of

the world. We've seen these platforms contribute to ethnic strife and violence, and now, we have an insider calling it out.

KINKADE: Absolutely, Brian Stelter, no doubt we will speak again soon, hopefully tomorrow. Thanks --

STELTER: Thanks --

KINKADE: So much.

STELTER: Thank you.

KINKADE: Well, still to come tonight, Taiwan accusing China of sending more than 50 military planes into its airspace in a single day. Beijing is

pointing the finger at Washington.


KINKADE: Welcome back. Taiwan is reporting today that China's Air Force has sent 56 war planes into its defense zone. That's a record ever since

Taiwan started making these numbers public. China's missions near the self- governed island have gone up dramatically in just the last few days. Our Will Ripley is in Taipei.


WILL RIPLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The situation is escalating quickly across the Taiwan Strait. Think about it this way. Just in the last

four days, Beijing has broken its own record in terms of the number of war planes entering Taiwan's self-declared air defense identification zone

three times. They broke the record on Friday with 38 planes, then again on Saturday with 39 planes, and now again on Monday with at least 56 planes.


And these have been coming in waves, some in the day, some in the night, 149 Chinese war planes in total entering Taiwan's self-declared air defense

identification zone over the last four days including 120 fighters, 16 bombers, some of the nuclear capable, 7 anti-submarine aircraft and 6 early

warning aircraft. The United States over the weekend put out a statement criticizing the behavior of Beijing. It says, "the United States is very

concerned by the People's Republic of China's provocative military activity near Taiwan which is destabilizing, risks miscalculations and undermines

regional peace and stability.

We urge Beijing to cease its military, diplomatic and economic pressure and coercion against Taiwan. The U.S. commitment to Taiwan is rock solid and

contributes to the maintenance of peace and stability across the Taiwan Strait and within the region." Beijing Ministry of Foreign Affairs firing

back on Monday, issuing their own statement, saying, "in recent times, the United States has continued its negative actions in selling weapons to

Taiwan and boosting its official military ties between the United States and Taiwan.

These provocative actions have damaged relations and damaged regional peace and stability. China firmly opposes this and takes necessary counter-

measures." And in Taiwan, in addition to activating their own military jets and anti-aircraft and missile defense systems whenever these incursions

happen, they're also putting out their own propaganda video. The message of this video, and this is a quote here from the Taiwanese Air Force. "When

faced with our enemy's aggression and provocation, we will never compromise."

We don't know exactly why Beijing is doing this. They never really overtly publicized their reasons for flying so many war planes near Taiwan, but we

do know that there's been activity in the region involving aircraft carriers from the United States and the U.K. Could these Naval exercises be

a factor? Could the rhetoric and the dialogue between the U.S. and China be a factor? We don't know for sure, but what we do know is that they feel

here on this island they are being bullied and intimidated by Beijing, which continues to claim sovereignty over this self-governing island even

though it's had its own government and its own military for more than 70 years and Beijing has never ruled out taking Taiwan back by force if

necessary. Will Ripley, CNN, Taipei.


KINKADE: Well, Japan's parliament has officially confirmed Fumio Kishida as the country's new prime minister. The moderate liberal politician

unveiled his cabinet, Monday. He pledged to improve the economy, help end the pandemic and take on security threats from China. He also called for a

parliamentary election at the end of the month.

Well, still to come tonight, months after the assassination of Haiti's president, investigation grows ever more convoluted. Ahead, Haiti's former

Justice Minister speaks exclusively to CNN. Plus, want to visit Australia before Christmas? I do. Well, CNN spoke exclusively with a top Australian

minister who says a plan to welcome back international tourists is in the works as well as Australian citizens. We'll hear his comments next.



KINKADE: Nearly three months after the brutal assassination of Haiti's president, Jovenel Moise, CNN is gaining exclusive insight into an

investigation that can only be described as chaotic. Fired Justice Minister Rockefeller Vincent tells CNN that sitting Prime Minister Ariel Henry

should resign. Vincent and the top prosecutor in the case were both ousted last month. They made an accusation that Henry communicated with one of the

suspected masterminds of the killing the night it happened.

Well, CNN's Matt Rivers has been following the developments closely and joins us now from Mexico City. Matt, hard to believe it's been three months

since the assassination of the country's president. Certainly a very complicated situation, a lot of allegations flying, but you have had a

couple of exclusive interviews, what are you learning?

MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And essentially, these are two men arguing basically the same thing, but from two sides of the same coin. So starting

with the ex-justice minister, our viewers will remember that just in the last two weeks or so, it was Prime Minister Ariel Henry actually firing

both the former top prosecutor in Haiti and also the Minister of Justice, you'll remember the top former top prosecutor said that he wanted to bring

charges against Ariel Henry, the Prime Minister, unspecified charges in relation to the assassination of Haitian President, Jovenel Moise. As a

result, the Justice Minister, the former justice minister, who had supported the former top prosecutor, he basically was fired as well for

supporting that top prosecutor.

And now in an exclusive interview with us, the former Justice Minister basically says that he was fired along with that former top prosecutor

basically in a political cover-up. He basically says what other option could there be if the former top prosecutor wanted to bring charges against

the prime minister in relation to that assassination? And then he got fired? Well, what other you know, reasoning could there be if not some sort

of political cover-up and as a result, he's calling for the prime minister to resign. Here's a little bit of our conversation.


ROCKEFELLER VINCENT, FORMER HAITIAN JUSTICE MINISTER (through translator): In all serious countries, once you are implicated in such an affair, the

Prime Minister should offer his resignation, he should resign, and we are still waiting for him to resign, because on the night of the President's

death, a few hours later, he had phone conversations with the president assassin.


RIVERS: Now, Henry, the Prime Minister says that he doesn't recall that phone call, but says that it's nothing that would merit a warrant for his

arrest. And that is what the interim Justice Minister currently serving right now also says in a conversation that I had with him just yesterday,

he backed up the Prime Minister saying that he did nothing wrong here and says he has full confidence in this investigation as it goes forward from

this point forward.

I asked him how could anyone have confidence in this investigation, both Haitians and also the international community, because of all the twists

and turns, it's been more than three months since the President was assassinated, we were there covering that right after it happened. And he

says, look, these things can take time. It's a high profile case, here's what he had to say.


LISZT QUITEL, HAITIAN INTERIOR MINISTER & INTERIM JUSTICE MINISTER: This is a very prominent case. I work on this so we cannot, you know, walk into

conclusion and then when we make it required, I mean the lawyers of the defendants, you know, can say, hey, you did this mistake or that mistake

and even if we have enough proof, then we cannot make a case and then they'd walk away.



RIVERS: And so what he's arguing there essentially is that the trial or the investigation needs to take as long as it needs to in order for the

judicial process to play out. I think what is safe to say, Lynda, is that no matter which side you buy into this investigation is a mess. And the

only conclusion that you can take from this is that it's going to undermine confidence in whatever the ultimate conclusion from this investigation is

that the international community, that Haitians have been waiting for for months now. But it's just a political mess in Port-au-Prince right now.

KINKADE: Yes, it certainly is. Matt Rivers, good to hear from those former ministers through your reporting. Thanks so much. Well, thousands of

Haitian migrants trying to escape political instability in their country have fled in the last few months, thousands of others who migrated to South

America years ago, and now also heading north risking everything for a better life. But as Stefano Pozzebon reports, the journey to the U.S. is

not only challenging, it's extremely dangerous.


Stefano Pozzebon, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Trudging across rivers, up rocky slopes, and through gorges of mud, they cross nearly 100 kilometers of

jungle, the terrain, as much of a threat, there's criminal gangs lurking inside. These Haitian migrants are among thousands in Colombia, continuing

a perilous journey with a singular goal. "The fear is there," says Haitian migrant Francisco, "But it lasts for a minute or a half an hour, then goes

away because you regain motivation to reach the United States."

Francisco is following a route thousands of migrants are taking northwards from Colombia. They begin in Necocli, arrive by boat to Acandi, then cross

Colombia's Darien Gap Jungle towards the Panamanian border. Most travel three to four days in that stretch of rainforest, partially controlled by

criminal groups and traffickers who allegedly rob, rape, and assault some of those passing through, and the third, thousands are braving the

dangerous journey. Many had migrated from Haiti to South America years earlier.

But recently, increasingly strict immigration policies, pandemic impacts, and in some places racism are pushing them out of the countries where they

had once settled. In recent months, easing pandemic travel restrictions has led to a surge in migrant traffic along the treacherous route. It's a

continuing dilemma passed from one country to the next. In August, Colombia and Panama agreed 500 migrants could cross for each day, but local

officials say that quota is too low, leaving thousands stuck in cities and towns where resources are running out.


JORGE TOBON, NECOCLI, COLOMBIA MAYOR (through translator): The people feel desperate because they could no longer get food. In addition, many migrants

are running out of money. Migrants have been more than a month in our municipality. The situation is unbearable and very complicated for us.


POZZEBON: He thinks few places in Latin America are well-equipped to welcome Haitian refugees, who are among scores of other migrants here also

fleeing political upheaval, economic unrest, and violence at home. In recent years, millions have poured across the borders of Venezuela, El

Salvador, Honduras and elsewhere in the region, while hundreds of thousands more have arrived from West Africa.

One of them is Adem Magdanzo, a chef from Togo who migrated to Chile to work as a gardener. When we first met several weeks ago, Adem was crossing

that same stretch of jungle between Colombia and Panama, determined to reach his final destination.


POZZEBON: Where in the United States you want to go?

ADEM MAGDANZO, CHEF: Georgia. Georgia. Because I have some --


POZZEBON: On September 15, Adem messaged me saying he made it. He had crossed into the United States, but that was the last I heard from him.

Since then, he has been unresponsive. What became of his long journey unclear, tracing Adem's path, these migrants also face an uncertain fate,

but they desperately seek a better life and risk everything in hope they may find it. Stefano Pozzebon, CNN, Bogota.


KINKADE: Well, Australia is preparing to reopen its borders next month to bring home thousands of its citizens who have been stranded by the

pandemic, and it's hoping tourists will be able to follow. Australia's Minister of Trade and tourism investment spoke exclusively to CNN's Scott

McLean about the reopening. They also discussed Australia's controversial submarine deal with the U.S. that has infuriated France. CNN's Scott McLean

joins us now from Expo 2020 in Dubai. Scott, I'm very keen to hear all about this interview because I, for one, want to get home to Australia. But

at this point in time, borders might open next month, but some restrictions and a quarantine period will remain in place, right?

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. It's essentially -- the plan at least is to transfer it from a government-mandated Hotel quarantine

into a seven-day home quarantine instead.


And perhaps even fully vaccinated tourists could come as well. As I mentioned, I got to sit down with the Australian Minister of Trade and

tourism over the weekend who is here to meet with Emeriti officials and also officially open the pavilion which, as you might expect, is a bit of a

party out front and much more thoughtful and introspective on the inside. As you also mentioned, I asked him about that disastrous submarine deal

gone wrong, setting off that diplomatic row and also the COVID-19. situation. Listen.


MCLEAN: You said recently that the Australian borders would be opened by Christmas at the latest. When do you expect to open for tourists?

DAN TEHAN, AUSTRALIAN MINISTER FOR TRADE, TOURISM, AND INVESTMENT: We're expecting the borders to open now in November, and we will get them open.

Obviously returning Australians are the other priority. But we're hopeful that we'll start to see tourists coming back to Australia before Christmas

as well.

MCLEAN: Are vaccinated tourists still going to have to quarantine?

TEHAN: So we're working through that with the state governments that initially vaccinated tourists a week of home quarantine.

MCLEAN: I just wonder, how can you realistically expect to attract anyone to a country if they know that when they arrive, they have to spend seven

days in a hotel room even if it's their own hotel room that they paid for not a government one?

TEHAN: Over time, as we work through testing, as we work through vaccination certification, we'll be able to change those requirements. And

we're confident that we'll see the tourists coming back.

MCLEAN: I think it was yesterday that you said that trade talks with the E.U. would be delayed until November. Why do you think that is?

TEHAN: Because I think the E.U. want time to be able to digest what's happened in the European-Australian relationship in the last month. But

it's great that those talks will go ahead.

MCLEAN: It sounds like you're saying they need time to cool off after the nuclear submarine incident.

TEHAN: Well, look, what the E.U. has said is that they need a few weeks just to make sure that they're prepared for the next round. And they want

to they want to put it back or not.

MCLEAN: But to do something specifically or just to have their anger subside?

TEHAN: Well, you need to ask the European Union exactly what the reasons are.

MCLEAN: I think you've said recently that, you know, at the end of the day, Australia has to act in its national interest. And I think people

understand that. But you can see looking back that things could have been done in a different way.

MCLEAN: These were discussions that were taking place at a top security level, at the highest level when it comes to national security. So there

wasn't the ability to be able to forewarn, there wasn't the ability to be able to do it a different ways.

MCLEAN: Sounds like you wouldn't do anything different.

TEHAN: Well, I think once history is -- of this is looked at, I think people will understand that there wasn't really another way to do it.

MCLEAN: How many months were those negotiations taking place for while you were also, you know, chugging along with the French contract?

TEHAN: Look, I'm not going to go into every intimate detail around the discussion --

MCLEAN: It was months though presumably, right?

TEHAN: So obviously those talks took place over a period of months. But the contract discussions and negotiations with regards to the French submarines

also took place over months and years.


MCLEAN: And the naval group, the French submarine builder involved in that canceled contract had previously said that there was no question that

Australia would pay for at least part of that contract worth tens of billions of dollars. The minister there declined to speculate on how much

that bill might end up being.

On COVID-19, Lynda, as you well know, part of the big problem that Australia has is that so few people have any kind of natural immunity

because the virus has barely been in the country at all. And so I asked him, whether he expected the death toll to rise, whether he expected

hospitals to be overwhelmed, and he insisted that there would be other public health measures put in place to try to mitigate that.

But as we've seen in other countries, when this happens, and we have this substantial part of the population that is unvaccinated, the U.K., for

instance, has more than 80 percent of the eligible adult population fully vaccinated at a much, much higher rate of natural immunity because of the

millions of cases that they've had already, and yet, just in the past week, more than a thousand people died in the U.K. alone.

KINKADE: Yes. Well, he's hoping the vaccination rates really do pick up there. And Aussie citizens like my parents can also leave the country and

come visit outside of Australia. All right. Scott McLean As always, thanks so much and great interview.

Well, still to come tonight, an ecological mess in California, a large oil spill hits popular beaches and causes damage to local wildlife, what

officials are doing to try and contain it.



KINKADE: Welcome back. Some of California's most popular beaches have been closed following a large oil spill of the Southern Coast. A pipeline breach

has sent thousands of barrels of oil into the ocean and dead fish and birds are washing ashore. Cleanup crews are racing to contain the slick and

prevent more damage to the area. I want to bring our Natasha Chen, who's covering historian joins us now live. Natasha, huge cleanup underway. A lot

of devastation. What are you learning about the source of the leak?

NATASHA CHEN, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lynda, that's still being investigated because divers were actually going underwater Sunday to

try and go to the potential source site and figure out exactly what happened and where this is a 17-mile pipeline that connects a processing

platform to the shore. And so right now the good news is that there is probably no more leakage because the entire capacity of the pipeline was

126,000 gallons or so. And it seems like that all has already come out. So it's unclear exactly how much but it's understood, to us at least told to

us, that there is no more from that since the initial spill.

It's just been coming onshore, it's been moving slowly to the coastline and that's why we're seeing all this tar coming up onto the bottoms of people's

feet. We're seeing these birds that are being picked up and actually treated here at this center. One brown pelican already had to be

euthanized. So, reports of other animals with oil on them throughout the coastal area here. We heard from the Huntington Beach Mayor this morning

who spoke to us just about what it's like living here and having this happen in her community.


KIM CARR, HUNTINGTON BEACH, CALIFORNIA MAYOR: For me personally, this is a really rough one. I am a beach person, grew up on the beach and from this

area and so to see this happening in my backyard, it's devastating but I also know that we are going to do everything that we can to make this even

better than it was before.


CHEN: And she did also say that it could take weeks, even months perhaps, to know the full extent of the damage that's happened here. There is a lot

of effort right now putting out boom, thousands of feet of boom to contain that oil. Some of the oil has been recovered already.


But nowhere near the total potential spill amount. And again, as I mentioned, there are teams actively looking for injured animals, animals

with oil on them and bringing them right here behind us to this building. Lots of teams trying to help. This is a community that is very

environmentally conscious. And so in speaking to the people on the beach yesterday over the weekend, who were trying to scrape and clean the oil off

their feet, they were just very upset at what this does, especially to their wetlands, where multiple organizations have spent decades trying to

protect that wildlife that's now been destroyed in the matter of a day, Lynda.

KINKADE: Really difficult operation to clean up that much oil. Can you tell us how many people are working to both clean up -- in the cleanup operation

also the rescue of wildlife who may be impacted?

CHEN: Yes, well, as far as the rescue of the wildlife, we're told by these folks here that there are 10 member organizations that are going out doing

this work, so a lot of people involved. And as far as the people cleaning up right now, that's going to be a long-term process. Eventually, the local

cities here may require volunteers. They will ask for that at that time, but right now, it's about figuring out what caused the leak and making sure

this never happens again.

KINKADE: All right. Natasha Chen, Hunting -- near Huntington Beach, thanks so much. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.



KINKADE: Can't wait to see that film. Well, thanks so much for watching tonight. I'm Lynda Kinkade. Stay with CNN. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next.