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Hala Gorani Tonight

At Least Six Dead, Dozens Wounded In Beirut Violence; Police In Norway Name Suspect In Deadly Bow-And-Arrow Attack; Taiwan Apartment Building Fire Kills At Least 46 People; Supply Chain Woes; Dr. Sanjay Gupta Talks To Joe Rogan About COVID-19; Prince William Pans Billionaire Space Race; Disney+ Investing In Asian Programming. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired October 14, 2021 - 14:00   ET



CYRIL VANIER, CNN HOST: And hello everyone, live from CNN in London, I'm Cyril Vanier in for Hala Gorani. Tonight, violence and bloodshed in Beirut

as Lebanon's painful troubles boil over onto the streets. Also ahead, police say a highly unusual and deadly bow and arrow attack in Norway

appears to be terrorism. CNN is live in the small town at the center of all this.

And Prince William has a message for the space-obsessed billionaires, focus on fixing problems here on earth, first. So Lebanon's president says he

will not allow anyone to take the country hostage following deadly violence in the streets of Beirut.




VANIER: Security and militias armed with machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades battled for hours today. Local media report that it's now calmed

down and the military is securing the area. But the Red Cross reports at least six people were killed and dozens wounded. It's started as Hezbollah

and its allies led a protest against the judge investigating the 2020 Beirut port blast. Terrified residents fled the violence carrying their

children in their arms. This is just the latest chapter in Lebanon's sad recent history. The country is rocked by a failing economy, massive fuel

shortages and widespread distrust of the government.

Correspondent Jomana Karadsheh is tracking this violence for us from Istanbul. Jomana, what's the situation as we speak in Beirut after the

military was sent in?

JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Cyril, after this really terrifying day for the residents of Beirut, for the people of Lebanon,

really, these most intense clashes that Beirut has seen in more than a decade. The situation at this point seems to be relatively calm. But it

still is very much on edge. We don't actually know, Cyril, how these clashes ended today, whether there was any sort of negotiations behind the

scenes to bring those hours of street fighting to an end.

So people are very concerned about where this is headed next, because, you know, we don't actually know at this point the identity of the gunman who

opened fire at the Hezbollah and Amal protesters, these two very powerful Shia political groups as well as heavily-armed militias. Of course,

Hezbollah and Amal are accusing the Lebanese forces that right-wing Christian party as well as heavily-armed militias as well have been

responsible for what happened today, saying that it was members of the Lebanese forces that opened fire on their protesters.

So tensions are running really high right now. We are talking about a really polarized country. You've got these heavily-armed groups in the

country and a very weak state. So, people are really bracing themselves for any sort of retaliation, escalation, a lot of concern, a lot of anxiety

about what might be coming next, Cyril.

VANIER: And as you speak, Jomana, we saw the footage of the violence that unfolded today in the streets of Beirut. Rockets fired in the capital. This

is a city that still has scar tissue from years of civil war. So what's the reaction like here this evening?

KARADSHEH: You know, Cyril, you speak to any Lebanese today, and they will tell you that these scenes were really terrifying, so reminiscent of the

15-year civil war, those dark days of the country. You know, you saw those pictures of families running for cover on the streets, children huddling in

the hallways of their schools, hiding underneath their desk, the military escorting people to safety. And, as you mentioned, rocket-propelled

grenades being fired in the middle of residential areas. So really, it was a really terrifying reminder of how much the country is on edge, how

volatile the situation is.


A reminder of those dark days. But also, it's not just about the violence, not just about this. The Lebanese people, Cyril, have been through so much,

especially over the past couple of years. And they're continuing to live through some of the most difficult times in their country. As you

mentioned, the -- you know, the state of the country's economy, the political paralysis, the -- you know, the poverty that the majority of the

Lebanese people, the vast majority are living through right now. They are facing starvation, the inflation that is making it so difficult for people

to put food on the table.

And on top of all that, you've got, you know, the state's infrastructure, the basic services are continuing to crumble. Just this weekend, we saw a

power outage across the country. So, I mean, on top of all that, you've got the events of today and people are just asking how much more can the

Lebanese people take? Cyril.

VANIER: That's a question we've been asking quite a bit over the past year. Jomana Karadsheh reporting, thank you very much. Today's gun battle

illustrates the anger and divisions in Lebanon over the investigation into the Beirut port blast in August of last year. So, let's dig deeper into

that with Fawaz Gerges who joins us. He's a professor of international relations at the London School of Economics and the author of "Making The

Arab World". This is about rival political factions as Jomana was detailing, of course, but at its heart, it's about the investigation into

last year's port blast and trying to establish responsibility for that.

A judge is trying to pin down who's responsible for 200-plus deaths in Hezbollah and its ally Amal, they just don't like his work.

FAWAZ GERGES, PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: Well, yes and more. Because the clashes that have taken place

today are part of the larger struggle over the authority of the institutions and the neutrality of the institutions. It's not just

Hezbollah and Amal, the Shia-dominated parties, who are basically questioning the neutrality, the investigation, but also some of the Sunni

elites, Al-Hariri supporters. So it's not really only the Shia. For your own, it has turned, unfortunately, this crisis, into a Sunni-Christian


And what -- for your own viewers in the past two decades, most institutions in Lebanon have become basically politicized. Many Lebanese don't view the

institutions as neutral and legitimate. And the question, how do you govern a country where people don't really see the institutions as neutral? So

what happened today is that Hezbollah and Amal called on their own followers on sectarian mobilization and political mobilization to basically

send a powerful message to the judge. And this tells you about the larger systemic crisis that Lebanon faces today.

VANIER: How far do you think political factions, writ large, I understand it's not just Hezbollah and Amal as you laid out, might go to undermine

this investigation?

GERGES: Look, since the civil war in 1975, hardly any politician has been brought to justice. Hardly anyone. What you have in Lebanon -- what we have

in Lebanon is a political culture of impunity. I mean, think of when the war ended in 1970 -- when the war ended in 1990, the civil war in Lebanon

lasted from 1975 to 1990, the warlords basically took ownership of the country. That's how bad it is. So you already have a political culture that

basically protects powerful politicians. And another major irony for me as a Lebanese, it's terrifying.

The clashes today -- the clashes today took place in the same place when the civil war started in 1975. And also the same militia, the Lebanese

forces that allegedly fired on the peaceful protesters and its leader, Samir Geagea was accused some of the major atrocities in the Lebanese civil

war between 1975 and 1990. And this tells you a great deal how little we have learned. We have learned hardly any lessons from the -- I mean,

terrible war that almost destroyed the country. In fact, we have learned the wrong lessons, and because the country now has -- is on the brink of

collapse, not just economically, the economy has already collapsed. But it takes a spark to destroy whatever remains of the fragile social fabric of



VANIER: You know, you're right. Sometimes it does feel like we're going in circles with what's going on in Lebanon. So, there is one man whose mission

it is to put the country back on track, and that is the new Prime Minister Najib Mikati who now has been able to form a government as of fairly

recently. Does he have the political clout to do it?

GERGES: I wish -- I wish I could say he had been or he has. I mean, remember what you have, we're talking about the clashes about the civil

war, about the fighting. The current crisis is three decades in the making. What you have in Lebanon is failed government -- governance, it's failed

state building, with all my respect for Najib Mikati, he is part and parcel of the political elite in Lebanon that have destroyed the economy and have

destroyed the savings of the middle class. I mean, we have not told your viewers that the currency in Lebanon lost 90 percent of its value in the

past one year.

The savings of the middle class have evaporated. Inflation, annual inflation is almost 85 percent, 75 percent of the Lebanese need

humanitarian assistance. Your reporter said there's starvation in Lebanon. And who's responsible for that? The political elites that have plundered

the country, plus, the geostrategic properties and the role of U.S. by the way cannot be underestimated. The U.S. has played a major role in

exacerbating the internal crisis that Lebanon basically has been going in the past year or so.

VANIER: Fawaz Gerges, look, thank you very much and absolutely you're making a point that Jomana made as well, that the people of Lebanon -- this

is not just a political game or political infighting. The people of Lebanon, first and foremost, are suffering one number that we're going to

put up on screen, 82 percent of the population of Lebanon now considered to be living in poverty. This is a measure of multi-dimensional poverty, so

not just income, but access to health, education, and public utilities. Again, 82 percent of the population in poverty. Fawaz Gerges, thank you

very much.

Now, the suspect in the bow and arrow attack in Norway has now been named, 37-year-old Espen Andersen Braathen has been charged for what Norwegian

police say appears to be an act of terrorism. Officers confirmed that they had previously been in contact with the Danish suspect over concerns that

he showed signs of radicalization. Five people were killed, three more were injured during the rampage on Wednesday. Let's bring in CNN's Melissa Bell,

who's in Kongsberg near Oslo where the attack happened.

Melissa, so, for the moment, not a ton of details. Can you fill out the picture for us? What are you learning about the suspect, how he may have

radicalized, any planning that went into this attack, targets, et cetera?

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, for a start, Cyril, I think it's important to make clear that this is the sleepiest, the quietest of

suburban residential towns, and very little in the way of evidence that many few matches happened here debut on the police cordon, this was a

supermarket where the rampage began. It was here that Braathen first attacked an unarmed, an off-duty police officer who was wounded, but not

killed, and from here, went onto that rampage that lasted more than half an hour. What we now understand from the time line that's been drawn out for

us by authorities is that it was after his first contact with police who tried to apprehend him, that he then carried on and went on to kill those

five people.

Four women, one man, all between their 50s and 70s who were killed by the bow-and-arrow that he was using. Now, as you mentioned, we've been learning

a little bit more about him in the past, the fact that he had been known to authorities for his radicalization. The fact also that over the course of

2021, there had been no reports of him, no reports of erratic behavior and he'd had no contact with the police. What has emerged though is a picture

of a man deeply troubled. Here's what one of his neighbors had to say about him.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has never said anything verbal loud. I never heard him shout, I never seen him with his bow, only with the -- going out the

gate with the garbage and looking through the mailbox, and then go behind the gate again. And staring, every time staring like a little bit angry.


BELL: Now, what we know, Cyril, the very latest we've heard from the prosecutor this evening who explained to us the arraignment hearing will

take place tomorrow as planned. In theory, the suspect should be there, but she believed it was unlikely that he would be since he's due to be

questioned in the nearby town where he's being held, the town of Drammen. And it is psychiatric services that will be evaluating him.


The idea that depending on his state, he may be too unwell to show up for court tomorrow, Cyril.

VANIER: Melissa, one more thing. Has there been a claim of responsibility? Is there any sign that this goes beyond this suspect?

BELL: No, none at all. And I think it's important to remind our viewers that although the police did speak of his history of radicalization, the

fact that he had been alerted to authorities because of that radicalization, there is nothing to suggest that, that was even the motive

of this particular attack. In fact, the police chief reminded the press conference that whilst there was that history of radicalization, we had to

be very careful until we could ascribe a motive to what went on last night.

There is every sign that this was a man with mental health issues, and although he may have had that radicalized past, again, this is not

something that had alerted authorities in the meantime. However, important to note also that the Intelligence services here in Norway have said that

the threat of far-right terror attacks continues as does the threat of other forms of terror attacks, and that the country needs to be on the

lookout for either copycat attacks or revenge attacks.

This is a crime, this is an attack that has really shocked the country, and again, a particular part of it, particularly quiet, and definitely not lose

to the kind of events that have happened here over the course of the last 24 hours.

VANIER: Melissa Bell reporting live from one of the locations, one of the sites of the attack some 24 hours ago. Melissa, thank you very much. Whilst

police confirms this appears to be an act of terror, they also maintain the threat level in the country remains at this time, moderate, narrow

description. But they do believe attacks by extremists could still be possible as Melissa was detailing. I want to bring in security and

terrorism expert Glenn Schoen to break this all down for us. What strikes you the most about this attack? I mean, I think for most of our viewers,

the bow-and-arrow part of it is really headline-grabbing. What -- how do you look at this?

GLENN SCHOEN, SECURITY MANAGEMENT CONSULTANT: Yes, I think that really is the standout feature here is literally the M.O., the method of operation. I

mean, we've had one prior incident where a terrorism suspect was detained in Scotland two years ago with a crossbow. But we certainly have not had

this before, and we certainly have not had this level of violence in terms of the effect. I mean, this was the most deadly attack. And if you look at

lone assailants without firearms throughout Europe in the last five, six years, this really also stands out for the number of victims this person

was able to make.

And I think police were investigating a total of five crime scenes in the town where this person held up for within just 15 or 20 minutes. So that's

I think the first standout feature. The second thing that a lot of people in the analytical and security community are sort of looking at is the

timing. Of course, in the last two weeks, underway in France as the big trial of people who were implicated in the attacks in 2015, in November

2015 in Paris. So there was a lot of concern with law enforcement that we might see a major -- in this case ISIS-inspired attacks to support the

people in prison. That has not manifested itself.

So when something like this happens, it's certainly out of pattern. And, again, while we have seen, you know, incidents in sort of a local setting,

if you will, near where the perpetrator lives in smaller towns, particularly in France, but also some other countries in Europe or in

recent years, it does stand out for the venue. It's very much a -- it looks like, you know, think global but act local type of action is what it looks


VANIER: I was going to ask you precisely about that. This is -- so, this is somebody from the town because we heard from the neighbor who, it seems,

just went out into the town's center and started firing arrows. There wasn't -- it doesn't appear that there were targets chosen for symbolic

value or even for the ability to make more, to have more casualties. It seems there was very little planning that went into this.

SCHOEN: It looks like it. I mean, what is of course hard to figure out at this point is the percentage of mental health versus possible terrorist

motive in terms of the reason for this person picking the time and the place where he did it. And again, points at the dilemma for law enforcement

that even if you have somebody on your general radar, when do you intervene, you know, when does the monitoring go to a priority alert, and

do you intervene and detain somebody in a preventive sense? And of course, unfortunately, there's hundreds of these cases not just on this continent

but elsewhere as well, where it's such a challenge for law enforcement to figure out what's the point where we step in.

And we do find a lot of cases including people with mental health issues in addition to radicalization that they often act out in their own area, their

own comfort zone.


And certainly we've had attacks where it's very specific what the target is, but others, as with the three smaller incidents we saw earlier this

year in France, for instance, with knives, it was more the general public or what was at hand. And, of course, in terms of a terrorist effect,

hitting the target or the public at large as opposed to a particular group of people or law enforcement, the terror aspect, of course, is higher, if

you will, in this kind of case.

VANIER: Glenn Schoen, thank you very much for your insights, joining us from The Hague this evening, thanks. And still to come tonight, tragedy in

Taiwan as a building full of the elderly and disabled catches fire. We'll have the terrifying details on what happened in just a moment. Plus, a

stern warning from the U.S., but will Iran listen? The latest on efforts to get Tehran back to nuclear talks coming up.


VANIER: In Taiwan, investigators are still trying to determine what caused a deadly blaze at a 13-story apartment building. At least, 46 people died,

dozens more injured. And the building housed many senior citizens and people with disabilities. CNN's Will Ripley has the latest on this.


WILL RIPLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): The fire chief in Kaohsiung says there are several reasons why so many people died in this

apartment fire. It happened in the middle of the night 3:00 a.m., so most people were sleeping. The first lower half of the building was abandoned.

There was a movie theater and karaoke lounges and restaurants there before. A lot of those old empty businesses had things piled and clotted up. So,

that added fuel to the fire, making it burn so intensely.

Also, a lot of the residents in the building were either senior citizens or disabled. This was a very low-cost property, you know, as I mentioned an

older building, half of it already abandoned, but the 7th through 13th floors had more than a hundred apartment blocks. And some people say they

actually were alerted to the fire by hearing the screams of other people who were living in the building. By the time the sun came up, there was

smoke billowing out of the building. But for the most part, the fire was brought under control.

It took about four hours to actually get the flames under control. And as the firefighters started going in, they realized just what terrible

situation they were discovering, 11 bodies, they sent straight to the morgue, and then throughout the day as they found more, and as people who

went to the hospital succumbed from their injuries, the death toll continued to pile up.


Taiwan's President Tsai Ing-wen is sending condolences. She's already sent her premier down to Kaohsiung to speak with the families of survivors and

those who died. And they're continuing to investigate what caused this. There was some sort of an explosion sound in the early morning hours, and

residents say they've been hearing a lot of sounds like that from power lines in recent days. Will Ripley, CNN, Taiwan.


VANIER: The window for diplomacy is closing. That's the message to Iran from U.S. officials pushing to revive the nuclear deal. European nations

involved in the stalled nuclear talks are also expressing deep concern and an EU envoy is in Tehran today to convey that very message. Iran's hard-

line President Ebrahim Raisi has indicated that his country will return to talks soon, but there's been no sign of movement from Tehran until now, and

the U.S. is losing patience.

The U.S. Secretary of State giving a veiled warning to Iran after a meeting Wednesday, a meeting that included Israel's foreign minister. CNN's U.S.

security correspondent Kylie Atwood is following this story from the State Department. Kylie, the U.S. talking with Russia, talking with European

partners on this as well, but what are you hearing about channels of communication with Iran?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN U.S. SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, channels of communication with Iran and the U.S. just don't exist right now. All of the

talks that happened over the course of this year, earlier this year were in direct talks. They were happening in Vienna, U.S. officials were talking to

their European counterparts, and then the Europeans would talk to the Iranians, and they would essentially, you know, share messages back and

forth that way. Now, U.S. officials have been very clear, saying that direct communication with Iran would be their preference.

They think it would be much more effective to figure out how they can get the United States back in the deal, the Iran deal, how Iran can come back

into compliance with that deal. It just hasn't happened yet. Iranian officials have publicly said that they are going to return to these

negotiations soon. But U.S. officials have said that there's reason to believe that they don't actually want to return to these negotiations, that

they don't actually want to return to conversations about how to salvage the Iran nuclear deal.

And that is the reason that the Biden administration's Secretary of State Tony Blinken and his colleagues are having conversations about what the

alternative would look like should that not work, should option A, returning to the Iran nuclear deal, not work, and the U.S. has to deal with

an Iran that has no controls on its nuclear program.

VANIER: OK, so let's talk a little bit about that, and a potential option B. I mean, where could this go? Is the Biden administration, for instance,

prepared to declare this deal dead if the Iranians don't pull back from their current nuclear activity?

ATWOOD: Well, they're not prepared to declare this deal dead right now. It seems like they're doing a little bit of negotiating in public, right?

Saying to Iran if you don't come back to the table, we are going to be prepared with a set of options that we are going to have to turn to which

you aren't going to like essentially because you're giving us no alternative here. They're saying that publicly, they're not going as far as

saying, you know, this is the route that we're going because they want to keep the door open a little bit to see if Iran does come back to the table.

Now, U.S. officials have been very clear in saying that the runway is getting shorter and shorter for when Iran could come back to the table and

have productive conversations about how to salvage the deal. But they haven't put an exact time frame on when that time will actually run out.

VANIER: All right, so it sounds like looking at a plan B, but not there yet. As you say, though, the runway getting shorter for U.S. officials.

Kylie Atwood reporting from the State Department, thank you very much. And still to come tonight, shipping containers in one U.S. port stacked as high

as a multi-story building. How the backlog has gotten so bad, next. Plus Dr. Sanjay Gupta goes on the Joe Rogan experience podcast. Does Rogan ease

up on his controversial COVID-19 commentary? Find out, after the break.




VANIER: The U.S. is struggling to untangle a massive shipping backlog. The country's ports are crammed with thousands of containers, as ships wait in

long queues to offload more.

There aren't enough truck drivers to transport them to businesses. And that's just one part of the problem. The problem is a global supply chain

crisis, sparked by high fuel prices, an energy crunch and a shortage of workers.

The U.S. President says he is determined to get things moving.


JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: With the holidays coming up, you might be wondering if the gifts you plan to buy will arrive on

time. We have some good news.

We're going to help speed up the delivery of goods all across America. After weeks of negotiation and working with my team and with the major

union retailers and freight movers, the Ports of Los Angeles, the Port of Los Angeles announced that it's going to begin operating 24 hours a day,

seven days a week.


VANIER: Some 80,000 shipping containers have piled up in Savannah, Georgia, one of the largest U.S. ports. And things are reaching a crisis

point. Amara Walker is on the ground.

What's the situation there now?

AMARA WALKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Cyril, there's unprecedented congestion that's playing out at ports across America, including here at the Port of


What we're experiencing, what the port is experiencing is a major traffic jam along the banks of the Savannah River all the way out along the coast

of the Atlantic Ocean and also a major backlog of supplies.

You can see this wall of shipping containers, just stacked up about five stories high. We're told about 70,000 to 80,000 of these boxes have been

sitting here, day after day, waiting to be picked up, taken to their final destination, whether that be a store shelf or a factory.

And the Georgia Port Authority tells me they are at physical capacity at their terminals. And now they are starting to move some of these containers

to another terminal that they have for backup to alleviate some of the stress that they are seeing here.

But this is a 50 percent increase in the number of containers that this port is now dealing with. And right now, we are told, seven vessels are

being unloaded as we speak. This is usually about a 24-hour process. That's not atypical.

What's unusual is the fact that there are 25 cargo ships that are in the queue right now, anchored out on the water, waiting, many up to five days,

just to get to port, to unload their freight.


WALKER: Look, Cyril, overall we are told by the Port Authority things are going smoothly. They are making progress for what it's worth. And they are

taking steps to try to alleviate some of the congestion that we are seeing.

They're extending hours, at least on Saturday, to give more time to unload the stuff. They're also in talks with the federal government right now to

locate about four more storage facilities inland.

And they're also planning for an expansion, a $700 million expansion. That'll start in December to allow for more capacity here at the port. So

that is the situation here, Cyril.

Of course, the big question is how long is this going to last?

I wish I had a crystal ball; I don't. I asked the Port Authority; they said they have no idea but expect it to last at least several more weeks.

VANIER: What is the Biden administration doing to help this situation?

WALKER: So, well, first off, as you know, what's happening here is that there's a huge demand for goods. The supply chain has been overwhelmed. And

we're seeing also the overwhelmingness (sic) happening with truck drivers. It's not enough.

So the Biden administration announced several things to alleviate this supply chain nightmare. I think you played the sound bite of President

Biden saying they're going to make sure that the largest port in the United States, the L.A.-Long Beach Port to go to 24/7 operations, which means that

their hours will now be doubling.

Also they're pressing the private sector, like Walmart, to step up when it comes to moving their freight out of these ports and into their store

shelves or warehouses. They have gotten a commitment from Walmart.

And they're also talking to FedEx and UPS to begin overnight operations. And lastly, when it comes to truck drivers trying to find ways to increase

the number of truck drivers in this country and the federal government is now working with the State Department of Motor Vehicles to help issue more

commercial driver's licenses so that more truck drivers can get on the road -- Cyril.

VANIER: Amara Walker, reporting live from Savannah, Georgia, Amara, good to see you. Thank you very much.

U.S. President Joe Biden is praising the decline in COVID-19 in the U.S. but also says the country is in a very critical period. To date, a little

over 66 percent of the eligible U.S. population is fully vaccinated.

During remarks from the White House today, Mr. Biden argued that vaccine requirements are proving effective, while pleading with unvaccinated

Americans to get the shot.


BIDEN: The plan I laid out in September is working. We're headed in the right direction. We have critical work to do.

But we can't let up now. My team and I are doing everything we can. But I'm calling on more businesses to step up. I'm calling on more parents to get

their children vaccinated when they are eligible. And I'm asking everyone, everyone who hasn't gotten vaccinated, please get vaccinated.


VANIER: So NBA basketball star Kyrie Irving is speaking out about some of his reasons for not getting the COVID-19 vaccine. With the NBA season set

to start in just a few days, his short-term basketball career is in jeopardy.

And that's because of NBA rules and COVID restrictions where Irving plays, in the state of New York. Irving, who's been largely quiet amid this entire

controversy, took to Instagram live yesterday to make his case.


KYRIE IRVING, BROOKLYN NETS: Don't believe that I'm retiring. Don't believe that, you know, I'm going to give up this game for a vaccine


What would you do?

If you felt uncomfortable going into the season, when you were promised that you would have exemptions or that you didn't have to be forced to get

the vaccine?



SEAN MARKS, BROOKLYN NETS GENERAL MANAGER: Kyrie's made it clear that he has a choice in this matter. And it's ultimately going to be up to him,

what he decides. We respect the fact that he has a choice and he can make his own -- and right to choose.

As again, right now what's best for the organization is the path that we're taking. And I don't want to speak for Kyrie. At the right time, I'm sure he

will address his feelings and, you know, what the path may be for him.


VANIER: So the bottom line for now is that Kyrie Irving doesn't play with his team, the Nets, until he gets the vaccine. Now this is just part of the

wider conversation taking place in the U.S.

CNN's chief medical correspondent and one of the world's most influential podcast hosts went head to head about this and about the coronavirus in


Dr. Sanjay Gupta appearing on "The Joe Rogan Experience" podcast on Wednesday to discuss the pandemic and vaccines. Rogan took unproven

treatments when he contracted the virus earlier this year. And he's faced criticism for suggesting that young people don't need the vaccines. Here's

some of that conversation.


DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So would you now, with what you know now and having had COVID, would you have wished that you had

been vaccinated beforehand?


GUPTA: You almost got vaccinated.



GUPTA: But you got through it.

ROGAN: But I got through COVID pretty quickly. So that was my -- my thought was, I'm a healthy person. I exercise constantly. I'm always taking

vitamins. I take care of myself. I felt like I was going to be OK and it was true. It was correct. I'm happy I got through it.

I don't wish it upon anyone. It wasn't fun. But it wasn't the worst cold I have ever had. And I got over it fairly quickly, relatively speaking.

GUPTA: Again, I am truly glad about that. All kidding aside, I don't think anybody wishes you -- everyone wants you to be well and healthy. But I

think the question is, in terms of the nuance of this, it is not a strategy recommending anybody get infected.

ROGAN: I'm not recommending anybody get infected.

GUPTA: So they should get vaccinated.

ROGAN: I think a lot of people should get vaccinated.


GUPTA: You're talking to a lot of vulnerable people.

If you just said vulnerable people -- yes, older people, fat people. I think a lot of those folks. My real concern is this urge to vaccinate

children. And I don't know what kind of data we have on the long-term effects of this.

And I don't know what kind of data -- when you look at this study that shows that the 12- to 15-year-old boys are four to six times more likely,

is that the number?

Whatever the number was, much more likely, that scares the (INAUDIBLE) out of me.

GUPTA: Thankfully it's really small numbers, period.


VANIER: And just a window into that conversation there.

Still to come tonight, it's an exciting time for enthusiasts to space travel. Prince William is not one of them. Find out why he says we need to

bring the world's greatest brains back down to Earth. Stay with us.




VANIER: Another first in the race for space exploration. China is sending the first female astronaut to visit its space station now under

construction. She and two other astronauts will blast off Saturday.

They will spend six months working on the station and plan to conduct at least two complex space walks.

Now it's been quite the week for the space race, with "Star Trek" actor William Shatner becoming a real space traveler.


VANIER: Just yesterday we were talking about it on the show. He hitched a ride on Jeff Bezos' Blue Origin spacecraft.

But there is one prominent voice saying "enough." Prince William blasted space tourism, saying that the world's greatest brains should focus instead

on solving problems closer to home. CNN's Clare Sebastian is following the story from New York.

Clare, this is something that I heard a lot when we were covering the story earlier this summer, during the space race between billionaires.

If they have all these resources, this money, this ingenuity and they can pull off something like this, why don't they use it first to address

problems on Earth, especially the emergency problem of climate change?

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Cyril, I think that's a measure of the moment we're in. There are a lot of pressing problems -- not just

climate change, the post-COVID recovery and all the inequities that it brought with it.

I think the spectacle, given that of two billionaires launching themselves into space within two weeks of each other over the summer, did certainly

divide opinions. Some loved it, thought it was inspirational. And some hated it.

But the argument from those in favor of these endeavors is that the two things don't have to be mutually exclusive. You can protect this planet and

you can work toward colonizing others and sending tourists into space at the same time.

And Jeff Bezos was actually asked about this by CNN's Rachel Crane just before he launched himself into space back in July. Take a look.


JEFF BEZOS, FOUNDER, BLUE ORIGIN: We have to do both. And what our job at Blue Origin is to do and what the space tourism mission is about is having

a mission, where we can practice so much that we get really good at operational space travel, more like a commercial airliner and less like

what you think of as traditional space travel.

If we can do that, then we'll be building a road to space for the next generations to do amazing things there. And those amazing things will solve

problems here on Earth.


SEBASTIAN: I think when you're worth $200 billion or thereabouts, you can afford to do both. Jeff Bezos has also pledged money to fight climate

change, about $10 billion. So he can afford to do both things.

The problem, of course, is the time horizon. The plan that he has is to eventually move heavy industry, energy-producing sort of technology into

space, get it off and therefore limit emissions. That, of course, is not going to come ahead of the imminent climate crisis that we're facing right


VANIER: So Prince William says the best brains, why don't we mobilize the best brains on solving Earth's problems?

And no disrespect to Bezos or any of these other business men here, but that's what they are, Bezos, Richard Branson, Elon Musk, they're business

men. And this is also a commercial endeavor.

SEBASTIAN: Right. It's in the early innings still. SpaceX, Elon Musk's company, is the most material all of them. It's got NASA contracts; it's

launched the first manned mission from U.S. soil in a decade.

But space travel in itself is still in the very early innings. And I think that's why the question of how much carbon is actually emitted through

these rocket flights is a difficult one at the moment.

Prince William also expressed some concern about that, saying there was a fundamental question around the environmental impact of these flights.

Right now, it's a very tiny proportion of the world's emissions because there are so few space flights.

They are growing, though, and I think certainly rockets are much more carbon intensive than other modes of transportation that we have already.

VANIER: There is just something about the footage that we're seeing, Clare, of these rockets burning all this fuel for 12 minutes on the edge of

space and for three minutes of weightlessness.

It just strikes a very dissonant chord with everything else that is making the news and COP26 and the energy crunch. It doesn't seem completely

aligned with other priorities that have been outlined recently.

SEBASTIAN: Yes, the timing is difficult right now, obviously, coming ahead of the COP26 summit that's seen by so many as a make-or-break moment.

We're getting all these warnings that we're running out of time to tackle climate change, that the current commitments are not good enough.

But I think, again, what you saw yesterday with the William Shatner flight is that there are people who are inspired by this, that it was a sort of

moment of inspiration amid all the gloom that we've experienced collectively over the past 18 months.

And some of the technologies, it should be pointed out, that are sort of coined as a result of space travel, do have impacts on Earth as well, not

least of which is the ability to monitor climate change, which is something that NASA is heavily involved in as we speak.


VANIER: That's the trickle-down effect argument, which is, OK, that's interesting, I didn't know that. Clare Sebastian, thank you very much for

coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Still to come tonight, did "Squid Game" change the game?

Disney announces a major move into Asian markets, hoping to find its version of the global smash hit. I'll have details just after this.




VANIER: The streaming wars are going global. Disney+ has announced a major expansion of Asian content, more than 15 new original programs from South

Korea, Japan and other Asian markets.

It's seen as a response to Netflix's unprecedented success with "Squid Game," the Korean language series that has proven to be a global sensation.

Netflix says "Squid Game" has been its most watched original program in any language.

Frank Pallotta of CNN Business is following this story closely.

So is it really the success of "Squid Game" that's forcing Disney's hand?

Or was this in the offing anyway?

FRANK PALLOTTA, CNNMONEY CORRESPONDENT: I think "Squid Game" is a phenomenon, a sensation; 111 million accounts on Netflix, the biggest

series launch ever.

But Asia is a major market for any streaming service, from Disney to Netflix to our own streaming service, HBO Max. It has obviously tons of

consumers that are an untapped potential and is a huge market.

So I think "Squid Game," if it never existed, I think Disney would still be looking at this market as a premier place to grow Disney+. But it doesn't

hurt that content from it is very popular not just in an Asian marketplace but in the United States and around the world.

VANIER: So is there any sense already of the type of content, the type of show, perhaps, that we're going to get from Disney, from the Asian market?

PALLOTTA: Not really. I mean, it's still kind of in the primordial ooze. But Disney is a global company. They have theme parks in Asia. And some of

their movies, especially the Marvel movies, are hugely popular in Asian markets. But they have global franchises; it's not like their TV shows and

their films are U.S. specific.


PALLOTTA: They're really made for global audiences, just like Netflix makes shows for a global audience.

VANIER: From a business standpoint, are there other untapped markets?

We're talking about Asia but I wonder if there's a next frontier that we'll be talking about in six months or two years.

PALLOTTA: I mean, there's a ton of, like, African marketplaces that can really be broken into. India, with Hotstar, using Disney+ as an example, is

a place where they're still building it out.

But there's still a lot of untapped, you know, marketplaces in those areas and in the Asian-Pacific area, as we've been talking about here. The U.S.,

they're still going to try to build up as many people as possible in the U.S.

But that's going to hit a saturation point eventually. So I think there is definitely a few untapped marketplaces for them to go. That's the thing

about streaming, they have to find where consumers don't have the service yet so that they can grow the service.

Because you're going to hit saturation points in many places around the world, including the U.S.

VANIER: All right, just before I let you go, how good is "Squid Game"?

I haven't seen it. Scale of one to 10.


PALLOTTA: I guess we are the only two people in the world who have not watched this show. I heard it was addicting. LeBron James was talking about

the ending of it. It's everywhere online.

I have so much other content. But it's also kind of like a very terrifying dystopian show. Right now, we're heading into winter here in the United

States. So I don't know if I want to watch like a terrifying show as the night grows longer and it's the middle of October.

VANIER: Terrifying dystopian show, that works for me. Anything that goes for LeBron goes for me. Thank you very much, Frank.

And finally, it turns out, Europeans may have been enjoying beer and blue cheese for nearly 3,000 years. That's according to a weird primary source:

ancient feces.

Scientists analyzed samples of preserved human excrement found in some underground salt mines in Austria. They found two fungi that are used to

produce blue cheese and beer.

Researchers say it shows that Iron Age Europe used some pretty sophisticated culinary techniques not just for preservation but for taste

as well.

Thank you for watching tonight. I'm Cyril Vanier in London. Stay with CNN. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.