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Hala Gorani Tonight

Santa Fe District Attorney Cites Charges Over Rust Movie Scene Incident Won't Be Ruled Out; Queen Elizabeth To Miss COP26 Climate Summit Due To Ill Health; Sicilians Brace For More Devastating Rain And Floods; FDA Recommends Pfizer Vaccine For 5-11-Year Olds; Lawmakers Vote To Recommend Charges Against Brazil's Bolsonaro; Dark Net Drug Sweep; Using Bacteria To Save Rome's Artifacts. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired October 27, 2021 - 14:00   ET



HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone, live from CNN in London, I'm HALA GORANI TONIGHT. Ammunition fired from a prop gun on the "Rust" film set was

a live lead projectile. We've just heard from authorities looking at just what happened last week. Those updates live in a moment.

Also ahead, U.S. kids age 5 and up get a step closer to a COVID vaccine after advisors vote to recommend authorization for them. And streets turned

into rivers in Italy as extreme weather there turns deadly. One more big flooding disaster in Europe, we'll have a live report ahead.

We start with that tragedy on the "Rust" film set. All options are on the table. The district attorney dealing with the investigation into the deadly

shooting on the movie set says no one has been ruled out when it comes to pressing charges. It was the first time the attorney and the local sheriff

talked about last week's incident where a gun discharged as actor Alec Baldwin practiced with it. It fired a live round, killing director of

photography, Halyna Hutchins, and injuring the movie director. The sheriff said there was, quote, "complacency on the set and other possible live

rounds had been found." He also said three people had come into contact with the gun before it was fired.


ADAN MENDOZA, SHERIFF, SANTA FE COUNTY: During the initial investigation, it was determined that actor-producer Alec Baldwin was the person that

fired the weapon. We identified two other people that handled and or inspected the loaded firearm prior to Baldwin firing the weapon. These two

individuals are armorer Hannah Reed Gutierrez and assistant Director David Halls. All three individuals have been cooperative in the investigation and

have provided statements.


GORANI: All right, we're going to go live to the scene in Santa Fe in a moment, but first, I want to discuss the legal implications here with Joey

Jackson; he's a CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney. So the sheriff said there was complacency on the set. The D.A. said she needs to

look at New Mexico law before making any decisions on charges. What's your take?

JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Hala, good to see you. My take is that this investigation, of course, is being done in a

comprehensive way, I think that's been made clear. My take is further that they've isolated at least to now three people that they belief were

handling the gun. They didn't speak to, but perhaps the investigation will conclude any others and what we lawyers call a chain of custody. That is

anyone and everyone who would be in contact with any weapon, there are internal protocols that need to be followed.

What were the training of those people? Did they follow those protocols? Clearly, something went wrong and to what extent things went wrong, we'll

learn more as the investigation unfolds. But there's a distinction between on the one hand civil liability, which means someone --

GORANI: Yes --

JACKSON: Was careless, someone was negligent, in which case it's a civil lawsuit for monetary damages, and a criminal case, Hala, in which case

you're instituting criminal proceedings as a result of criminality. And I think that's going to turn on the extent to which someone was careless.

Last point. There's a statute in every state, but they treat it differently, right? But this particular state -- every state treats it

differently. In this particular state, they have involuntary manslaughter. And what that is, if you are careless to such a degree where as a --

GORANI: Right --

JACKSON: Result of that carelessness and just general negligence a death occurs, then you do have liability here and you could go to prison up to 18

months according -- in accordance with --

GORANI: So, you could --

JACKSON: That statute.

GORANI: It could be criminal liability, maybe at the negligence level. The sheriff listed the people who were in custody, were handling that gun

before ultimately Alec Baldwin fired that fatal shot. Hannah Gutierrez; the armorer, David Halls, the assistant director, and then Alec Baldwin. How

does an investigation usually unfold in order to determine whether or not charges such as criminal negligence should be brought forward?

JACKSON: Yes, so what they'll do, and I think there will be a multi-tiered investigation, obviously, we're talking about the sheriff's investigation.

The show itself has to examine their internal protocols. We know production has paused. I think the industry as a whole has to look at safety

standards, and I think legislatures across the country would get involved or could get involved with regard to imposing particular protocols moving

forward. But how this investigation will unfold is that the sheriff will continue to evaluate everything.

We know about the 600 pieces of information or evidence rather that they seized from there. There will be evaluation as to that. They will look to

what were the actual established procedures that were followed for the show?


What they were supposed to be from what they actually were, who handled the weapon? They indicated who it was. Who was supposed to? What was the

armorer's role? How was there a breakdown? Who, if anyone else could add insight with respect to how the production was supposed to proceed, who

should have been involved, what the safety protocols were? And in the event there's a break in that chain, which clearly there was, someone is dead --

GORANI: Yes --

JACKSON: Another person is injured, then they'll have to assess whether it rises to a level of such carelessness and negligence as to constitute

involuntary manslaughter which is a crime in New Mexico.

GORANI: And what about, for instance, the movie producers, the leadership, those who are, I assume, contractually obligated to make sure that the

workplace is safe?

JACKSON: It's a great question, and we see that in various states where you have people who are at the highest chains, but who are supposed to be

responsible for reasonable care, for safety, for ensuring that all standards of regulations that are in place are followed. And to the extent

that those people who either knew or should have known, right? There are two standards. It's not only what you knew, Hala, it's what you should have

known and what --

GORANI: Yes --

JACKSON: Was supposed to be followed, to the extent that you deviate from those standards of reasonable care, i think what's going to happen here,

there's going to have to be a distinction made. Yes, we know it was carelessness. Yes, we know it was recklessness. Yes, we know it should have

been done differently. The prosecutor will have to decide, does it rise to the level of criminality? And that's what they're focusing in on, depending

upon the egregiousness of the mishaps that occurred in the handling of these weapons and by who?

GORANI: And our correspondent Josh Campbell was at that sheriff and district attorney's press conference in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and he joins



GORANI: Me now. What -- did we learn anything about how a loaded gun with a live round made it on to a movie set, ultimately killing somebody?

CAMPBELL: Well, that remains a key part of this investigation. I asked the sheriff that very question. Do they know how this live ammunition made its

way there? They said that they do not yet. That remains being investigated, involving -- conducting witness interviews, people who were there on the

scene. We heard reports earlier in the week that perhaps crew members had been conducting target practice using live ammunition with this very same

weapons that were to later be used on the set in filming this movie.

That right now looks likely as one of the key causes, but the sheriff says that they're not ruling anything out right now We're learning also that

investigators found a lot of evidence on the site of that shooting here in Santa Fe, including 500 rounds of ammunition. They're trying to determine

how much of that ammunition was live ammo, the same that you would see in a sporting goods store or, you know, that the police and the military use,

versus the dummy rounds, the inert rounds that are typically used on the set of a movie. That evidence is currently being investigated by the FBI,

again, to try to determine how it made its way on that set.

GORANI: And where is Alec Baldwin right now? Is he -- does he have to be in New Mexico to cooperate and talk to investigators?

CAMPBELL: Well, we're told that he is being cooperative, that all of the witnesses thus far that the Sheriff's Department has spoken with, they are

being cooperative. Obviously, the district attorney, the office here are saying that charges are still on the table, they haven't ruled anyone out.

We don't know his exact location right now.

We didn't get any indication that he's being held here or asked to stay here. We know that the law enforcement officers will often stay in contact

with people to ask follow-up questions, you know, as they learn new pieces of evidence and information, they want to stay in touch, but what we're

learning from the Sheriff's Department, Mr. Baldwin being cooperative with authorities as they sift through all the evidence in this case.

GORANI: All right, Josh Campbell, thanks very much, live in Santa Fe there. He attended that sheriff and D.A. news conference. One last question

to you, Joey Jackson, I mean, obviously, we are and everybody involved wants answers quickly, but typically, these investigations take a long


JACKSON: They do, and so the bottom line is that, i think the obligation of the Sheriff's Department is to get it right, and in getting it right,

they will interview various witnesses. They will look, as i noted, at the internal protocols. They will look at every piece of evidence they seize.

They will piece together what the policies were, what they should have been, where the breakdown was with respect to the live ammo getting there,

what if anything they could have done differently, what if anything they should have done differently. And that, of course, can take weeks.

Notwithstanding our timeline, they have a timeline of their own, and in which case the sheriff's office will cooperate and work with the

prosecutor's office in order to determine whether what they find in the break of this particular chain of causation that led to this rises to the

level of criminality and not just purely negligent behavior which, of course, would be a civil matter for a lawsuit, not a criminal matter for an

actual prosecution before a jury.

GORANI: All right, Joey Jackson, thanks very much. Civil liability --

JACKSON: Of course --

GORANI: I mean, fairly certain that something is going to progress perhaps at that level. We'll see if there are any criminal charges. Thanks so much

for joining us, as always --

JACKSON: Of course --


GORANI: Joey Jackson.

JACKSON: Thank you, Hala --

GORANI: A quick break, we're hoping to go live to Sudan after the break. So we're trying to get that together, but we will be discussing also

Britain's longest reigning monarch is resting up a week after her overnight hospital stay, but that has some royal watchers worried. Plus, Sicilians is

cleaning up after some massive floods. You're going to want to see these images. Once again, another country there hit by horrendous flooding. We'll

be right back.


GORANI: In just a few days, the U.K. will host the COP26 Summit, the most important climate conference in years without its head of state. Queen

Elizabeth was scheduled to attend an evening reception in Glasgow, but will now be staying home instead. Her decision comes nearly a week after she had

an overnight hospital stay, raising concerns over the 95-year-old's health. Max Foster joins me now with more. We did see her on a conference call

after doctors told her to rest up, and she looked well. So how did this decision come about to ask her not to attend in person the COP26 event?

MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, yes, she wasn't just due to attend, she was due to host it, you know, one of the biggest gatherings of

world leaders on U.K. soil ever, it's a really big event. Part of her constitutional role as head of state and she is no longer going. And even

last week, they were very keen on her to go, so this was a big decision. But as you say, yesterday, she was still conducting virtual engagements

with ambassadors, so the palace is very keen to stress that this is taking the pressure off her rather than indicating there's a serious situation.

But it does come off the back of a cancelled visit to Northern Ireland and also a visit to hospital last week, which we weren't told about until a

newspaper leaked that news. So there is concern about how she is, but I think it's a case of, is she pushing herself too hard? Does she need to

reassess really how she carries out her role?

GORANI: And do we know why she was -- why she was in hospital at all? Were we given a reason?

FOSTER: The only reason they've given us is preliminary tests, and the reason they're saying they didn't tell us initially was because they don't

normally tell us about tests, only if it's a procedure of some kind.


So, they are saying it wasn't a serious procedure, but she was in overnight and we can assume that those test results will be coming back, and it's

whether or not they choose to reveal what's in those results. They're very clear on patient confidentiality on this one. They won't even tell us --

tell us if she's had a booster jab, for example. But --

GORANI: Right --

FOSTER: They did tell us previously that she'd had the initial COVID vaccinations. So, I think it's largely the queen deciding for herself, she

doesn't want to make a lot of fuss, she's carrying on with her job, but I think she is going to have to reconsider how much traveling she does and

how she still carries out those constitutional duties without actually being in the place.

GORANI: Yes, because traveling is stressful for, you know, much younger people and COVID numbers are a bit alarming in the U.K. right now. I wonder

if that's also factoring into the decision here.

FOSTER: Yes, so we have asked these questions about, you know, was COVID a factor? And they, again, will say this is purely doctor's advice and she's

acting on that. She is effectively being ordered to stay home. But you can assume that the doctors will be considering the risk factors here for the

queen. And I was in Downing Street last week, and it was very interesting with a group of foreign journalists sitting, speaking to the Downing Street

people about, you know, COVID safety around COVID -- around the conference.

And they said that, you know, vaccination is highly recommended, but it's not strict and you do have to wear masks, but obviously the U.K. hasn't

been terribly strict on that either. So I think a lot of the foreign journalists were, you know, really sort of surprised to hear about how

unsafe it was from a COVID perspective, and perhaps the royal doctors looked at that, too.

GORANI: Yes, thanks very much, Max Foster. Right now, southern Italy is bracing for more tragic scenarios caused by climate change after

devastating rain and floods killed two people in Sicily. This was the port city of Catania on Tuesday. A hurricane-like storm dumped an entire year's

worth of rain on the region in just 24 to 48 hours. Flood waters poured down the streets in rivers. People had to bail water out of homes and

businesses. The devastation spread far outside the city.

Officials say there are hundreds of flooded houses across eastern Sicily, massive damage to buildings and crops. Residents are understandably a bit

anxious right now.


CARMELA MONDIO, CATANIA RESIDENT (through translator): Plenty of water entered my house in these two days, inside the drawers, on the floor. There

is still mud because we haven't managed to clean it. The problem is that if they don't raise the walls on the side, the water will always enter from

there as well as from the side of the airport. Yesterday was a catastrophe. The water completely covered the roads. You couldn't see them anymore.

NICOLA SAPUPPO, CATANIA RESIDENT (through translator): It is not possible that in a city like Catania, canals like this that are already problematic,

do not undergo proper maintenance. They now talk about climate change, but what has really changed for the worse is the way they manage these

structures. They must be cleaned every year, otherwise we would find ourselves always with flooded homes.


GORANI: And it's not over. Officials are expecting to see significant worsening of the weather from Thursday to Friday. Barbie Nadeau is with us

for the very latest. And it's the last thing that this part of Italy needs is more rain, Barbie.

BARBIE NADEAU, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: That's right. This is really -- today was the calm between the storms in many ways, and they were doing a lot of

cleanup, they were trying to make sure that electricity was safe. You know, they cut off all of the electricity in downtown Catania because people were

walking around and there were live wires and things like that. You know, you've got a couple of factors here, you know, you have, you know, lack of

maintenance as some of the people we heard from were saying.

But this out-of-control climate, you know, change is basically wreaking havoc on places like Sicily where flooding, which has really never happened

in the city. This is a city on the flanks of a live volcano. They're used to ash raining on them, not this kind of rain. But you know, the cities

aren't made for it. The infrastructure isn't in place for it, the drains aren't big enough for it. And that's why you saw such devastating flooding.

You saw these businesses just completely overwhelmed with water, nowhere for it to go.

And then as i said, they're expecting it to get worse. In the next two days, they're supposed to be crucial. That's going to be critical for those

people whose homes are already damaged and for the businesses that are already --

GORANI: Yes --

NADEAU: Damaged.

GORANI: i was going to say in the lead-up to COP26, are experts linking this to climate change?

NADEAU: Well, we've seen a lot of linkage to climate change here in Italy, especially in the southern part of Italy. You know, Italy broke the record

for the hottest day this Summer. Now we're breaking all sorts of records, a year's worth of rainfall in 24 to 48 hours --

GORANI: Yes --

NADEAU: That's incredible. And it is common here. Everywhere, I think the further south you go, especially in these low-lying areas, these coastal

areas, you know, they worry that the seas, the beaches are slowly disappearing all over Italy because of rising sea levels in the



It's really a problem and you're going to see it in places like southern Italy, first, Hala.

GORANI: Barbie Nadeau, thanks very much. China is gearing up to host the Winter Olympics just 100 days away, keeping athletes and spectators safe

during a pandemic. It's just one of the big challenges on Beijing's plate as our David Culver reports.


DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One hundred days until China hosts another Olympic games.



CULVER: But the world has changed since these celebrations in 2015 when Beijing won the bid. The 2022 Winter games, like the Summer games in Tokyo

earlier this year, taking place in the midst of the pandemic. Chinese officials are preparing for even more extreme containment measures than

Japan had, creating bubble-like atmospheres for all participants including journalists. Olympic venues in and around Beijing will be sealed off.

Planners even dedicating specific lines of transportation between the three main competition sites.

(on camera): Only domestic spectators will be allowed, so the stands will mostly have Chinese fans. Their health status vetted, their numbers

limited. Organizers intend to keep those traveling into the country and those attending the events separated from the rest of us already here in

China so as to keep the virus from spreading during and after the games.

ZHANG JIANDONG, SENIOR OFFICIAL, BEIJING ORGANIZING COMMITTEE (through translator): Epidemic prevention and control is one of our biggest

challenges in hosting the Winter Olympics. Without the safety of the epidemic prevention, the Olympics cannot be successfully held.

CULVER (voice-over): This 100-day countdown coming amidst another COVID-19 outbreak in China, again linked to the Delta variant and calling into

question the efficacy of Chinese vaccines. Targeted lockdowns, travel restrictions, mass testing, strict contact-tracing, all of it back in place

as daily case counts of local infections are back in the double digits. It may not sound like a lot, but remember, China is sticking with their zero

COVID policy no matter how disruptive it might be to everyday life.

THOMAS BACH, PRESIDENT, INTERNATIONAL OLYMPIC COMMITTEE: China does not only want to contain the virus, it wants to eradicate the virus. And this

is being done with great efficiency, with very strict measures, and this, of course will also be transferred to the Olympic Winter games.

CULVER: CNN recently visited some of the Olympic venues, witnessing the speed and scale of construction. In Beijing, cites an Olympic record like

no other. No city up until now has hosted both the Summer and Winter Olympic games. Beyond the slopes, dozens of windmills and solar panels,

part of China's bold environmental promise that these will be the first Olympic competition venues fuelled 100 percent by green energy. Beijing

likes to showcase itself not only as a leader in tackling climate change, but also as a bastion of global peace and stability.

Yet, the games will be plagued by growing geopolitical pressures including protests and calls for boycotts, from Hong Kong to Tibet, to Xinjiang, to

Taiwan. China's controversial policies and human rights record under increased scrutiny.

(on camera): It seems Beijing is determined to push past any criticism. The 2008 games were a mesmerizing production, and no doubt, the 2022 Winter

Olympics will wow the world with pageantry and performance, and this time with strict COVID counter-measures in place helping keep protesters away

and journalists in check. David Culver, CNN, Shanghai.


GORANI: One of China's loudest critic is U.S. professional basketball player Enes Kanter. The Boston Celtics center is not only taking on Beijing

for its treatment of Uyghur Muslims. But he's also calling out the world's biggest shoe manufacturer and list doesn't stop there. CNN's Steven Jiang

has that story.


STEVEN JIANG, CNN BEIJING BUREAU CHIEF: In this latest video message, Kanter not only mentioned Phil Knight, the long-time head of Nike, but also

NBA legends and Nike ambassadors LeBron James and Michael Jordan, challenging all of them to go to China in person to check out under what

conditions Nike shoes are being made. Now Kanter of course, is trying to shine a spotlight on this issue we have been covering for a long time, that

is allegations of wide-spread abuse and ill treatment of the Uyghurs and other Muslim minorities in western China including allegations of forced


The U.S. government has assessed up to 2 million of them have been sent to internment camps in this country. Now, Beijing of course, has denied all

those allegations, but one of Kanter's hashtags this time was "hypocrite Nike". That really illustrates how a growing number of multi-national

companies and institutions are caught between upholding values and principle they claim to hold dear back at home and not to running afoul of

the Chinese government and this country's increasingly nationalistic consumers in a very lucrative market.


And NBA of course has been in this kind of trouble before. Just two years ago, Houston Rocket's then-general manager tweeted in support of Hong

Kong's pro democracy protesters, and shortly after that, their games were being blacked out here and sponsors pulling out in this country. And this

time around, Celtics games have been pulled from the video site of Tencent; the Chinese tech giant that holds the digital broadcast rights to NBA games

in this country, but the official response has been more muted, probably because the country is counting down to the Winter Olympics here in Beijing

and officials are very much aware the whole world is watching how they handle the fall-out when politics and sports clash. Steven Jiang, CNN,



GORANI: China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs responded to Kanter's allegations by saying that he was just, quote, "trying to get attention",

end quote, and that his remarks were not worth refuting. As for Nike, it issued a statement back in March saying it is committed to ethical

manufacturing and does not source products from the Xinjiang Uyghur region. Kanter isn't settled about his message, this week, he wore a custom

sneakers to an NBA game that said "hypocrite Nike", Steven Jiang referenced those and modern day slavery.

He also posted pictures of the shoes on Twitter, take a look. And as you can see, they're spattered with red paint to make them appear blood-

stained. The Chinese dissident who created the shoes talked with CNN today.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think if we want to deliver a message that are about human rights in China and to America, sports game is definitely the biggest

and the most important platform that we can use. And among all those sports, NBA is definitely the pearl in the clam. So with this

collaboration, we really get all the attention from the world, from America that we're sending a very clear information about our concern of China's

human rights abuse against Tibetans, Uyghurs and Chinese, ourselves. I think, well, for Enes to actually helping on this project, to initiate this

project is something very valuable and brave.


GORANI: Well, that interview was blocked from airing in China. In fact, usually when we cover China on CNN, the screen goes black across the

country. The NBA has yet to comment on the controversial shoes. We're going to take a quick break, when we come back, the U.S. is one step closer to

vaccinating 5 to 11-year-olds following a vote by FDA advisors. How soon can we expect shots in those much smaller arms? And later, Brazilian

lawmakers approve calls for President Jair Bolsonaro to face charges for his handling of the COVID pandemic. But we'll see how one of his allies

could stand in the way. We'll be right back.




GORANI: Now to what many consider the next frontier in fighting COVID, vaccinating young children. In a potentially game-changing move, vaccine

advisers to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration voted today to recommend authorizing Pfizer's vaccine for children aged 5 to 11. Alexandra Field has

that story.


DR. DAVID KIMBERLIN, UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA: I think we all have been feeling the urgency for a vaccine for children for quite some time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Out of 18 voting members, 17 voted yes and we had one abstain.

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The FDA's vaccine advisers recommending emergency use authorization of Pfizer's vaccine for

children as young as 5. That means 28 million more people could soon be eligible to get the shot.

Since the start of the pandemic, more than 6 million children have tested positive for COVID. In the past week, more than a quarter of new cases were

among children.

DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: If we can create a situation where more of these kids are not getting infected, we

should be able to drive this pandemic down, which is what we really hope to do.

FIELD (voice-over): It is about the public good but health experts say it is about your children, too.

COLLINS: One shouldn't actually discount the fact that kids can get pretty sick with COVID-19. Sadly, more than 700 children have died of COVID since

this pandemic began.

Kids can also get the long COVID consequences, even though they might not have a severe case. It turns out some of them just don't seem to recover.

They have the fatigue, the brain fog, makes it hard to function in school.

FIELD (voice-over): Some school districts are already starting to prepare for life after vaccines.

Hopkinton High School in Massachusetts will try to lift the mask mandate for vaccinated students and staff for three weeks starting Monday.

Fulton County Schools in Georgia plan to drop the mask mandate 30 days after vaccines are authorized for kids as young as 5. Tyson Foods, one of

the first major companies to implement a vaccine mandate, announcing 96 percent of active employees are vaccinated days before their deadline.

But debates over COVID-related mandates are raging on across the country. A new order from Alabama governor Kay Ivey telling state agencies to fight

federal vaccine mandates.

The union representing New York's Police Department suing the city, days before the deadline for city workers to get a first shot.

DERMOT SHEA, NYPD COMMISSIONER: Vaccines have been around for a long time. They've been mandated in many ways for a long time. I just think it is, you

know, we're going through this unnecessary pain and losing people. And, you know, that's my two cents on it, for what it is worth.

FIELD (voice-over): And in Florida, the newly appointed surgeon general flat-out refusing to wear a mask in a meeting at the request of a cancer

patient, state senator Tina Polsky.

TINA POLSKY, FLORIDA STATE SENATOR: That's what it really is about, a matter of respect. It is not a lot to ask to wear a mask for 10 or 15


FIELD: The FDA vaccine advisers spent hours reviewing evidence for and against the emergency use authorization. The FDA says it is likely the

benefits of vaccinating children outweigh the risks.

The advisers also heard from a Pfizer doctor, who said he believed that the pandemic had the potential to worsen over the winter. He cited the cold

weather that's coming, the presence of the Delta variant and also the large number of susceptible children still, of course, capable of spreading the

virus -- In New York, Alexandra Field, CNN.


GORANI: Let's get more on what to expect following this FDA recommendation. I want to bring in Dr. Octavio Ramilo, chief of infectious

diseases at Nationwide Children's Hospital and professor of pediatrics at Ohio State University.

Thank you so much for joining us from Columbus.

This FDA recommendation for Pfizer to be administered to patients, to young children between 5 and 11, how significant could this be?

DR. OCTAVIO RAMILO, CHIEF OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, NATIONWIDE CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL: I think it is remarkable. It is very important to emphasize that

message that you showed earlier, children do get infected.


RAMILO: More than 6 million children in the U.S. alone have been documented with COVID-19 and we know that a small percentage can get very

sick. You know, the hardest part is to predict who is going to end up sick in the hospital because we cannot predict at this time.

Personally, since the beginning of the pandemic, we have had 1,100 children hospitalized in our hospital. And among those, 170 end up in the ICU. The

important message is half of those children were previously healthy. They did not have any chronic conditions, so that's the hardest part.

It is very difficult to predict who is going to end up very sick, so the vaccine offers that ability to protect those children. We protect them, we

protect the family and we protect the community, because they are less likely to spread the virus.

GORANI: So if I just understood you correctly, half of the 170 children who ended up in ICU had no preexisting conditions that could explain why

they became so seriously ill?

RAMILO: Half of the hospitalized. I don't remember exactly among the percentage in the ICU. But for sure there were children in the ICU who had

no preexisting conditions. Yes, that's the worrisome thing.

GORANI: Children are much less likely to become seriously ill, much less likely to die from COVID, so some parents might think, why take the risk of

potential side effects if my child will probably be OK if he or she catches this virus?

RAMILO: Well, I think the data does not suggest the case, because, again, the risk -- the advisers of the FDA committee was very clear. And they

showed the risk-benefit clearly benefits the vaccine but 90 percent effective in preventing infection.

Yes, maybe it is true and the kids do well but if it is your kid, your child, when I take care of the kids in the ICU it is 100 percent. That's an

important message. When it is your child, a percentage doesn't count. You want him or her to be better and to be safe.

GORANI: Have you encountered -- I mean have you interacted with parents who have not wanted their kids vaccinated?

What do they tell you about why they don't want -- because I don't -- I mean, I obviously don't work in a hospital and I'm not a pediatrician. But

I don't remember ever hearing vaccine hesitancy for the measles or for polio or the obvious vaccines that kids get.

Why is this one so controversial?

RAMILO: I think it is very unfortunate because we've become with ideas, philosophical ideas about life and politics that got involved into this

matter. You are totally correct. Some people have reasonable questions. They want to understand why the vaccines were developed so fast and what do

we know about them, how safe they are.

We can address those questions with data and with the right information. And you can see that, once they receive the information, they begin to

change their mind. I think it is difficult to explain sometimes that these vaccines, although they have been developed quite fast, they have been

tested because we did a lot of the studies in parallel.

We did not wait from step one to go to step two to step three. One, two and three were done at the same time and the government already funded most --

not all -- the vaccine but most of the vaccine development, they were being manufactured before the tests were completed. So that would allow us to

move so fast.

GORANI: We have obviously heard many cases of breakthrough infections, those are people who catch the virus, despite having been vaccinated twice.

I actually have a friend, who caught COVID after her booster shot, two months after her booster shot. It seems as though this vaccine is acting

certainly to prevent serious illness. But that infection is still very much possible.

Will it be the same thing for children, when it comes to whether or not they can infect each other or their family, once vaccinated?

RAMILO: That's a good question. I think it is important to remember the vaccines prevent more than 90 percent hospitalizations. But you are right,

there is a small percentage of individuals who can still get infected.

In our experience, 96 percent of the children who were hospitalized were not vaccinated in that age group. Children between 5 and 11 have a very

robust immune system. They're different than the young infants or the elderly.

And you can see that, even with smaller dose, the immune response were very, very good. So we cannot anticipate but we hope that the rates of

hospitalizations will go down and that it can prevent the serious consequences. No vaccine is 100 percent but we're in the upper 90s, which

is really remarkable.

GORANI: Right. So this, though, is a roll-out that will happen in the future. So we need to -- similarly, I imagine, adults need two jabs;

children are going to need two jabs. So we are looking really into the future.

What timeline do you anticipate for this?

RAMILO: No, I think my expectation is in the next couple of weeks we can begin to vaccinate.


RAMILO: We have one advantage, pediatricians and the pediatric community, hospitals, clinics, they're much more used to vaccinate, right. That's

another message that I can come up for parents.

If you have questions, if you have concerns, talk to your pediatricians. Pediatricians are so well-trained with vaccines and they are the people you

trust, that you have a good, established relationship and they can give you the answer you need to make a decision on vaccinating your kids.

GORANI: Doctor, thank you for joining us. Dr. Octavio Ramilo is the chief of infectious diseases at Nationwide Children's Hospital. Thank you for

your expertise and time.

RAMILO: Thank you.

GORANI: Here in the U.K., the leader of the opposition leading Labour Party has tested positive for COVID-19. Starmer is isolating, meaning he

was unable to challenge the government on its budget in person this week. The former Labour leader Ed Miliband stood in for him.

Protests in the streets and increasing economic and political pressure, all bearing down on Sudan's military. Coming up, we'll tell you who is now

joining a nationwide strike against the military's coup.




GORANI: Brazilian lawmakers have voted to officially recommend charges against the president, Bolsonaro, including crimes against humanity.

They approved a report that says he, quote, "deliberately" allowed COVID-19 to spread throughout the country in a failed attempt to achieve herd

immunity. But the push for criminal charges may hit a dead end. Let's bring in Isa Soares for details.

So first of all, what are these charges?

Let's get through that.

ISA SOARES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, plenty of charges. You should ask what isn't the charge against him at this stage.

Look, this report, Hala, a long time coming, six months of really emotional testimony. As you are looking at your screen, these are nine charges, I

should say, some of them: cause to propagate an epidemic, charlatanism, incitement to criminal behavior.

This as it relates to vaccines, everything from crimes against humanity to crimes of responsibility. The key part which you mentioned there, Hala,

that was mentioned several times, I counted about 14 times in the report.


SOARES: It's that line of "guided by an unfounded belief" in the theory of herd immunity by natural infection. Basically, he intentionally, is what

they're saying, is allowed COVID to spread in order to reach herd immunity.

But Bolsonaro's (INAUDIBLE) says it is politically motivated. Of course, elections in less than a year in Brazil, October of next year. He maintains

he is guilty of absolutely nothing. Take a listen to what one senator had to say, though.


RENAN CALHEIROS, RAPPORTEUR, BRAZILIAN SENATE PROBE (through translator): We saw terrifying crimes, inhumane barbarities, mockery with life, contempt

with pain. This period sadly will be remembered as one of the greatest civilizational downgrades in Brazil.

This document redeems us in part but the atrocities committed by this government will not be forgotten. We won't forget.


SOARES: Those are strong words, "We won't forget," worth reminding viewers not just Bolsonaro who has been recommended charges against, but 77 people,

including three of his sons and two Brazilian companies.

GORANI: How likely are the charges to stick?

SOARES: The majority of people I have been speaking to believe it might not go anywhere. This may be the end of the road when it comes to the

Brazilian justice system. I will tell you why.

The attorney general, who is expected to receive the report today, he is going to be assessing the recommendations. But he's also an ally of

Bolsonaro, a supporter of Bolsonaro. In fact, he was put in that position, appointed by the president.

So that justice might not come for the 600,000 victims of COVID-19. But what we are seeing is the tide turning in Brazil. Bolsonaro's approval

ratings are falling and falling dramatically. I looked at last numbers.

According to numbers from Brazil, 42 percent believe he is doing a good or great job. So the change may not come in the courts but perhaps in the

polls, Hala. We will keep an eye on that.

GORANI: We will. Thanks very much.

Pressure is building against Sudan's hardline military. Take a look.


GORANI (voice-over): These are some of the disturbing images emerging on social media. This is showing what appears to be security forces, shooting

at protesters in Khartoum with live ammunition. Sources say at least eight protesters have been killed and at least 140 others wounded since Monday's

military coup.



GORANI (voice-over): Well, in cities across Sudan, protesters are demanding an immediate restoration of the toppled transitional government,

which included, of course, a civilian component. They're also demanding the release of civilian officials who have been detained.

HAMSA HASSAN, SUDANESE PROTESTER (through translator): The people are mobilizing by themselves because there is no internet, no phone

communications. Nobody is leading us, not the Freedom and Change forces or the professionals association. The people in the street are leading



GORANI: Well, add to that a growing nationwide strike. Doctors, oil workers and pharmacies, banks and other businesses are closing. This is to

protest the coup.

The African Union today suspended Sudan's membership and the World Bank announced it is pausing its aid and operations inside Sudan.

Sadly, we were not able to -- and this, by the way, speaks to how difficult it is to establish coms, communications with people, inside the country.

We were planning on speaking with an activist in Khartoum. Unfortunately, the internet is down. There is a blackout of the internet and

communications on phone lines extremely dicey and difficult, which is the reason why, unfortunately, we weren't able to establish communication and

have that conversation on the show.

We hope to bring it to you as soon as we can.

Now European and U.S. authorities say they have busted a dark net opioid trafficking ring and that they've made 150 arrests. Operation Dark Huntor

netted more than $30 million in cash and virtual currencies as well as dozens of weapons and some 230 kilos of drugs like fentanyl, meth and


The sweep targeted vendors, buyers and sellers, who peddled killer pills, which are counterfeits laced with deadly drugs.


LISA MONACO, BIDEN HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER: In the United States alone, this operation seized over 200,000 pills, 90 percent of which were found to

contain counterfeit opioids or other narcotics.


MONACO: To put this in perspective, just 2 milligrams of fentanyl, a size so small it could fit on the tip of a pen, that's considered a deadly dose.


GORANI: Well, Europol and U.S. law enforcement agencies made the bulk of the arrests were made in Germany, Britain and the United States.

Still to come tonight, one of Australia's top-level footballers reveals that he is gay. We will have an emotional announcement coming up next.




GORANI: Well, we know how harmful some bacteria can be to humans and, given time, bacteria can even eat away at stone, something I didn't know.

But scientists in Rome are finding ways to use it to their advantage in the battle to save priceless artifacts. Ben Wedeman has our report.


BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Laser burns away the grime of 18th centuries, caked on to the Arch of Septimius

Severus in the Forum.

Rome may be the Eternal City; its ancient artifacts, however, are not under unrelenting assault by the ravages of time, pollution, acid rain and the

sweat and breath of millions of tourists.

Conservator Alessandro Lugari and his colleagues are using the latest technology to try to salvage the city's treasures.

"See the block?" he asks.

"It's about four cubic meters, several tons and, inside, there are billions of bacteria, bacteria that ever so slowly disfigures and erodes the marble.

We built a box so it would be dark."

Lugari explains the temperature and humidity should be relatively high to recreate conditions on the outside like those inside. They then covered the

outside of the marble with enzymes, drawing the bacteria out to the surface where it calcified, strengthening the stone.

WEDEMAN: Increasingly, restoration work is being done on a molecular level. But of course, for Italy, the challenge is huge because it has

archaeological sites on a monumental scale.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): While some fight bacteria, others are using it to eat away grease and dirt.


WEDEMAN (voice-over): Microbiologist Chiara Alisi and her team at ENEA, Italy's National Agency for New Technologies search for potentially useful

strains of bacteria in industrial waste sites, abandoned mines and from the distant past.

"They've already been selected by nature to develop potential abilities, which we can test and study and apply," she says.

"This strain we collected from an Etruscan tomb."

isolating individual strains that thrive on the right kinds of filth, sequencing their DNA and then putting them to work.

Silvia Borghini shows us the results in the garden of the National Roman Museum. With a toothbrush she removes gel suffused with bacteria from a

block of marble, once part of a 4th-century Roman bridge. Out of the test strips, each of which tried different bacteria strains, the cleanest was

covered for 24 hours with one known as SH7.

"It's easy to apply and afterwards the artifacts stay clean," Sylvia says. "It doesn't harm the environment. It's not toxic for us or the floor in the

garden. It's perfect."

And therein lies the paradox: a single celled organism could help preserve the city's ancient glory -- Ben Wedeman, CNN, Rome.


GORANI: The U.S. State Department says it is committed to the freedom, dignity and equality of all people of every gender identity. They just

issued the first U.S. passport with an X gender marker.

That is for nonbinary, intersex and gender non-conforming persons. The department spokesperson says they're looking to offer the option to all

routine passport applicants by 2022.

Australian soccer player Josh Cavallo has announced that he is gay. He made the emotional announcement in a video message released by his A league

club, Adelaide United.


JOSH CAVALLO, ADELAIDE UNITED: Hi, everyone. It is Josh Cavallo here. I'm at my home here in Adelaide. There's something personal that I need to

share with everyone. I'm a footballer and I'm gay.


GORANI: Cavallo also said he wants to show that everyone is welcome in the game of football and that everyone deserves the right to be their true

self. Cavallo follows former A league player Andy Brennan, who became the first Australian professional male soccer player to announce he was gay

back in 2019.

Well, thanks for watching. I'm Hala Gorani. QUEST MEANS BUSINESS is next.