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Hala Gorani Tonight
Russian-Backed Separatists In Eastern Ukraine Say A Vehicle Blew Up Near Their Headquarters; Ukraine's Breakaway Regions Urge Evacuations To Russia; Storm Eunice Slams The U.K. And Northwest Europe; U.S.: Russia Already Engaging In False Flag Operations; Shelled Ukrainian Kindergarten Shows The Risks Of War; Police Ramp Up Arrests, Tow Trucks From Central Ottawa. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired February 18, 2022 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello, everyone on this Friday, live from CNN in London, I'm Hala Gorani. I want to get you straight to our top
story tonight. Of course, we are beginning with Ukraine. And that country is making an urgent appeal to the world to act now and condemn what's
unfolding in two pro-Russian separatist regions in the east before the situation gets worse. After weeks of warnings that Russia could concoct a
pretext to invade Ukraine, we're seeing some alarming developments today.
Authorities in the self-proclaimed Donetsk Republic say a vehicle was blown up near local government headquarters. Now, the U.S. is calling this a
false flag operation. A pretext basically intended to frame Ukraine as the aggressor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SIREN BLARING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Now, the explosion that you saw on your screen came shortly after sirens pierced the air in Donetsk. That region and Ukraine's other
breakaway territory of Luhansk are urging civilians to evacuate to Russia. The Russian-backed separatist are in fact loading civilians up in buses and
sending them across the border to Russia. These are the first pictures we're seeing of these people on buses.
Ukraine is again denying today any plans to attack those parts of its own territory, saying Russia is simply trying to provoke Ukrainian forces.
Vladimir Putin spoke about the self-proclaimed republics during an earlier meeting with the Belarusian president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VLADIMIR PUTIN, PRESIDENT, RUSSIA (through translator): We can observe human rights violations in Ukraine and discrimination of Russian-speaking
population. We discussed with President Lukashenko that de-escalation around Ukraine should be based on fulfillment of Minsk Agreements. All that
Kyiv needs to do is to start negotiations with Luhansk and Donetsk leadership, and start formulating humanitarian coordination.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: And let's bring in our team of reporters, Matthew Chance is in Kyiv, Frederik Pleitgen is in Minsk, Belarus, Nick Paton Walsh is in
Poland. Matthew, I want to start with you. It's been in the last 24-48 hours, the most intense shelling in eastern Ukraine since 2015.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. There's been a real sharp uptick in the level of tensions in that region over the
course of the past couple of days. You know, last 48 hours, that's 24 hours or so, with reports from both sides of an uptick in shelling that has been
taking place from both the rebel side -- saw those pictures that the Ukrainian Defense Ministry took journalists to see just yesterday of that
kindergarten preschool that was apparently hit by a couple of shells as well.
There were no children inside were injured. Also the rebels on the -- in Donetsk, the rebel-controlled city and in Luhansk as well, another rebel-
controlled region have been complaining that Ukrainian military forces have been shelling residential areas of those cities as well. And then there was
this apparent explosion in the center of Donetsk outside the headquarters of mainly, the administrative building of the Donetsk People's Republic.
In the center of that city, a military vehicle bursting into flames, the blame, of course, from the rebel side being pointed towards the Ukrainians.
All fueling this narrative that they're trying to generate. That the Ukrainian military is building up to stage a military offensive, to retake
that territory back under government control. The Ukrainian officials that we've spoken to here, the foreign ministry saying that, that is divorced
from reality. Those are the words they're using.
Categorically denying that there's any plan to stage military action to retake those rebel-controlled areas. They only want them back, they say
through diplomacy. The State Department, others in Ukraine saying as well that this is all part of a provocation that is being, you know, probably --
you know, behind the hand of Russia in all of this, but a provocation to create a pretext for Russia to stage more military actions.
That's being added to the sense of crisis in the region as well by the fact that, both the administration in Donetsk, the rebels in Donetsk and in
Luhansk have ordered their civilian populations, the old, women and the children there to stage a massive evacuation and head towards Russia where
there are reception camps being set up that could house hundreds of thousands of people.
[14:05:00]
So, a real sort of humanitarian crisis in that region being manufactured perhaps, at least, that's the accusation from the western front from
Ukraine. But it could prove to be -- will be used as a pretext for some kind of escalation from the Russian side, Hala.
GORANI: And Nick Paton Walsh, you're in Poland, and you've spoken to western officials who are essentially saying, this is one of the most
dangerous moments there, that really could in an imminent way lead to an all-out confrontation. What are you hearing?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes, it's important to point out, Hala, this notion of things being imminent has been in the
air for quite some time now. But certainly to the western official I spoke to talked about the fact, the number of battalion tactical groups around
Ukraine had gone from 100, now, 110. Essentially saying that the suggestions from Russia, they were de-escalating, withdrawing were false
and instead they're growing in number.
They in fact, yesterday pointed to a similar position where they said half of the forces surrounding Ukraine's borders were now in fact, within 50
kilometers thereof. So they refer to this as -- the exception of dangerous phase that Russia could act at any time it possibly wanted. But that is of
course, you know, what we have been hearing for days, possibly weeks now. And the issue of hearing what Matthew was saying about the actions inside
separatist territories, the question now is, does that begin a process in which some sort of military confrontation becomes inevitable?
Is it like perhaps we heard from Vladimir Putin about trying to push those separatist areas towards -- and particularly push Kyiv towards talking to
those separatist areas and getting some kind of diplomatic agreement out of this? We've long seen very messy, confusing misinformation coming out of
those separatist areas, and what we're hearing today does appear to feed into that broader narrative, certainly, according to western officials.
So, I think there will be enormous concerns about what we've seen in Donetsk and Luhansk, being about trying to feed this idea that Russia
somehow has to step in as the savior for those areas. And I'm sure too, western officials now will continue to point to their concerns that this is
all potentially imminent.
GORANI: And Fred Pleitgen, you're in Minsk, the president of Belarus Lukashenko visited Vladimir Putin in Moscow. Of course, those two countries
are conducting military drills at the northern border of Ukraine. Talk to us about what the relationship is between those two leaders and how --
what they've said -- what it tells us about the probability of an imminent war.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that relationship is actually getting a lot closer. And I think that right
now, Alexander Lukashenko is probably one of Vladimir Putin's most important allies in all of this. He once again today said that he was fully
in the corner of the Russian federation, fully in the corner of Vladimir Putin. In fact, when they were at their press conference today, he kept
speaking about how Russia and Belarus would have to work together to counteract what he said that the West was doing.
We see these military drills that are going -- that are going on, have been going on for quite some time now, which are massive in scale, and are
really joint drills with Russian and Belarusian forces. They have the U.S. very concerned because they believe that Belarus could also be a staging
ground for an attack on Ukraine.
Now, of course, both Russia and Belarus have said that's not the case. However, the Belarusians in the form of Alexander Lukashenko say they
believe that the West is already trying to pin blame on them, and are already trying to hold them responsible. Here's what he had to say about
that earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEXANDER LUKASHENKO, PRESIDENT, BELARUS (through translator): They'll achieve nothing. They've suffered a massive loss in the first round. I can
see today they're gathering for a second round, frightening the entire world by saying we'll attack tomorrow, we'll surround and destroy Ukraine
and so on. Although, we've never even had any plans to discussing it many times, but we'll continue to train people to fight. There's no way around
it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PLEITGEN: And when he says continue to train people to fight, that certainly means that some of these exercises in the future will also be
happening as well. And the big thing that the U.S. has been looking at and questioning is whether or not the Russian forces that are here in Belarus
are actually going to return to Russia after the drills are finished on February 20th. And the Belarusian leader today said, look, it happened in a
day, it could happen in a month, but they will stay as long as needed.
So, certainly, right now, it seems as though there's no real timeline for the return of Russian forces here from Belarus back to Russia. And that's
certainly, also something that has the U.S. very concerned, because of course, the shortest way if Russia were to invade Ukraine further to get to
Kyiv is actually something from Belarus. Again, it's something that both Russia and Belarus deny that they have any sort of plans for, but
certainly, something has the U.S. and its allies very concerned. Hala.
[14:10:00]
GORANI: And one last one to you, Matthew Chance, in Kyiv. A separatist leader in eastern Ukraine was interviewed on Russian state TV, he was
asked, do you think you're headed toward war? He said unfortunately, I think we are, and we were seeing these civilian evacuations that were
orchestrated by some of those separatist leaders in those two breakaway regions of eastern Ukraine. What would a war look like there? How well
armed and organized is any Ukrainian resistance in that part of the country?
CHANCE: Well, I think the latest estimates I've seen from Ukrainian military Intelligence is that there are approximately 35,000 rebels there,
locals, as it were, who have been receiving military training. Some of them -- many of them will have been veterans of the conflict that came to a
close in 2015. Not to a close, but you know, the main hostilities sort of ended there. And in addition to that, there are thousands of, you know,
Russian opposites, and of course, that Moscow denies that.
They said they've got no military presence there, but there's overwhelming evidence to suggest that the Russian military is also right there,
certainly in a sort of officer capacity to back up those rebel forces. And then you've got the -- you know, tens of thousands of Russian troops that
we've been reporting on for the past several weeks, past several months, in fact, that have been building up in the region, and near that rebel-held
area.
Obviously, Ukraine across the border in Russia, and in the general facility as well, as well as in the north in Belarus and in the south in Crimea,
which is of course, annexed from Ukraine by Russia some years back. And so, look, I mean, if there's a war, it's not clear how limited it will be. It
could just be limited, and I think perhaps if there's going to be war, the hope is it would just be limited to one small area.
But it could also be a much broader military multipronged confrontation that would be, you know, absolutely horrific for the people who are on the
-- who are on both sides, really, but particularly on the other end of it.
GORANI: All right, thank you, Matthew Chance in Kyiv. Nick Paton Walsh joining us also from Poland and Fred Pleitgen who is in Minsk, Belarus. As
the tensions and rhetoric ramp up, so do the diplomatic efforts. The crisis is front and center for leaders at the Munich Security Conference today in
Germany, it's something that happens every year, but because of all of this tension surrounding Ukraine, it's taking really center stage today.
The U.N. Secretary General Antonio Guterres is warning that a Russian invasion of Ukraine will be, quote, "catastrophic". We've heard that from
many other leaders, obviously. While the U.S. whose delegation is led by Vice President Kamala Harris continues to warn an attack may happen within
days. Natasha Bertrand has been following these developments for us from Munich.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER (on camera): In meetings today at the Munich Security Conference, Vice President Kamala Harris has been
expressing a message of support with NATO and European allies as Russia continues to build up its forces near Ukraine's borders. And as usual
officials warn that Russia is taking all of the steps necessary to conduct an invasion on very short order if that is what Russian President Vladimir
Putin decides to do.
She's been dispatched here to reiterate that the West is more united than ever against Russia's threats and against its aggression, and that they're
willing to act in coordination to impose severe consequences on Russia if they do, in fact, move to invade. This is one of the highest stakes tests
for the vice president to date on the international stage, because it comes at a moment of huge crisis. This is something that could not only threaten
Ukraine if Russia invades, but also the international order as we know it.
That is the message that she will be sending during a speech on Saturday at the Munich Security Conference, and when she meets with Volodymyr Zelensky,
the Ukrainian president, also on Saturday, she will be reiterating the U.S. support for Ukraine. She'll be saying that the U.S. stands with Ukraine and
reinforce the commitment to Ukraine's territorial sovereignty. Ukraine's president is expected to ask in return that the U.S. continue to provide
weaponry and support as they do face down this threat from Russia. Kamala Harris has not been alone here.
She's with the Secretary of State Antony Blinken who has been meeting with his foreign counterparts, issuing very much the same message of solidarity,
of unity and reiterating that severe consequences will be imposed on Russia if they make any further moves. Russia has said that it's pulling forces
back from the border, that has turned out to be a deception according to U.S. Intelligence. They say that, that was a deliberate lie aimed at
drawing the West and the U.S. attention away from what was happening on Ukraine's borders.
But if anything, that deception has only increased the scrutiny on what Russia is doing, especially since they have continued to build up their
forces there. As many as 7,000 have arrived on the borders in recent days. Natasha Bertrand, CNN, Munich.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: All right, and there's a lot going on. Kylie Atwood who is following all these developments for us from Washington D.C., joins me now.
And Kylie, we're expecting the U.S. President, Joe Biden to speak at 4:00 p.m. He has a call with allies at 2:30 p.m., Canada, Germany, France,
Poland, Romania, the U.K., EU and NATO representatives.
[14:15:00]
Let's talk first about that explosion of a vehicle in Donetsk, and the U.S. is calling that now a false flag provocation.
KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN U.S. SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. A senior State Department official saying that, that incident itself is a false
flag incident, something that the Secretary of State warned just yesterday Russia was going to start doing. Also saying that these calls for civilians
on the eastern side of the country to leave because of Ukrainian aggressions is also part of this false flag operation.
This disinformation that the Russians are putting out to try and demystify the situation here, with according to the senior State Department official,
lies and disinformation to hide the fact that Russia is actually the aggressor here. To try and create this false narrative that it is the
Ukrainians who are actually the provocateurs here. Now, Secretary of State Tony Blinken also said earlier today that in the last 24 to 48 hours, we
have already seen in play these false flag operations.
These things that Russia is trying to do to essentially brew the situation so that it could justify going in and invading the country. It is very
clear that from the standpoint of the Biden administration, Russia is already laying the groundwork for this invasion, and they are just
essentially trying to find a way in here. And that is really interesting to watch as the Biden administration sees what they are doing and very quickly
is responding to these actions.
And saying that they are lies and disinformation, identifying them as such out of the gates. So that it's very clear to those of us who are watching
from Washington, from around the world exactly what is happening.
GORANI: All right, and what about the U.S. President? What are we expecting from him? Really, when we've heard from U.S. officials, they've
sort of repeated this same message over and over again about false flag operations, potentially used by Russia as a pretext to invade. And I know
that he's speaking with allies. So, what are they discussing? Because their weapons here will not be military weapons. They won't be sending troops.
They will impose, they hope devastating economic and political sanctions.
ATWOOD: Yes, that's right. I mean, their power is in their unity, right? And the president is speaking with allies ahead of this address. That is as
you note, significant. This is the second time that he will speak to the American people on this brewing crisis, this Ukrainian-Russian crisis in
the last week or so. That is a lot of focus from this White House to explain to the American people what is happening here. I think that they
don't want Americans caught off guard if something like this does happen, not only because of the crisis, it will be internationally, but also
because it will hit home, right?
We could see there would be some sort of an impact to the United States, to Americans here, and the president wants to be very clear in articulating
that, and also making it clear that the administration has done everything that they can to try and prevent this from happening. So, we'll see if he
has any more specifics, but also looking forward to next week, it will be interesting to see if Secretary of State Tony Blinken and Russian Foreign
Minister Lavrov actually meet.
Because that is one thing that they have said that they are planning to do late next week. Of course, the State Department says they won't meet if
there's an invasion.
GORANI: Well, yes, absolutely. And when we learned of that planned meeting between the two foreign ministers, you know, there was some hope out there
that, that meant that even if there is a conflict, that at least it won't take place in the first few days of next week. But, of course, we're seeing
Vladimir Putin overseeing military drills, we're seeing, you know, that vehicle explosion and other incidents that are very worrying. Thank you so
much, Kylie Atwood at the State Department as always.
Still to come tonight, the U.K. and northwest Europe are being slammed by dangerously high winds. We'll show you the impact of a giant storm called
Eunice and the devastation Eunice is leaving in its wake. We are feeling it here, I can tell you that. Plus, in the past few days, eastern Ukraine has
witnessed the worst shelling it's seen in many years. And U.S. officials are adamant, the false flag, they say, is being raised. That's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:20:00]
GORANI: We'll get back to the Ukrainian crisis in a moment. But I want to tell you about this giant storm the U.K. and northwest Europe are in the
middle of one of the worst weather systems they've experienced in decades. In the U.K., towns are being pummeled by record gusts of wind, millions of
people have been told to stay at home. The British Met office issued a rare threat to life warning as well.
Thousands have been left without power. Damages already widespread, you see some of it there. At least, two people in England sadly, and a person in
Ireland have been killed. Nina dos Santos has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dangerous winds battered the U.K. and northwest Europe on Friday, with gusts in England reaching the
highest speeds on record, at up to 122 miles per hour. The intense gales caused huge waves along the coasts, uprooted trees and ripped off rooftops,
including parts of the London 02 arena's famous dome. The U.S. Met office expanded its rare red alert for southeast England and parts of Wales on
Friday morning, warning of a possible threat to life and telling millions of people to stay indoors.
The chief meteorologist said that Eunice could prove to be one of the most impactful storms to hit parts of the U.K. in years. Along with strong
winds, the storm brought heavy snow and ice to the north of England and Scotland. It also caused chaos as Britain's rail networks told people not
to travel and hundreds of flights were cancelled across the country. Some flights still went ahead, though, and more than 200,000 people joined a
live stream to watch as planes attempted to land at London's Heathrow Airport.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes!
DOS SANTOS: As the storm reached northwest Europe, France issued orange and yellow wind alerts for large parts of the country. Belgium and the
Netherlands, too, urged people to stay inside and warned of strong gusts. Eunice is the second storm to hit the U.K. in a week. After Storm Dudley
left thousands of homes without power. The red alert has expired, but the strong winds are expected to continue for much of the weekend. Nina dos
Santos, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Well, this is the second severe storm that the U.K. has faced just this week. Let's bring in CNN weather correspondent Jennifer Gray for more
on the extreme weather itself, and what is behind it? We've seen so much more moisture, so much more rain and damage from these weather systems.
JENNIFER GRAY, CNN WEATHER CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you're right. I mean, this is typically the time of year where we see these big systems roll off the
coast, but we normally don't see them to this magnitude.
[14:25:00]
Now, they're following along the jet-stream. The jet-stream has been very active the last couple of weeks, and we're basically riding between systems
right now. So more is coming. They're basically just lining up, but like I said, not to this magnitude. We are seeing just incredible winds across the
U.K., Ireland, also northwest sections of Europe going to get the winds as well. It is starting to wind down across England, but look at that, 196
kilometers per hour. Highest wind gusts ever recorded in England.
So this is huge. We've also seen anywhere from say 120, 140 kilometer per hour winds and other locations mainly across the south. Now, as these winds
start to carry off to the east, along with that will come anywhere from say, 95 all the way up to 125 kilometers per hour. Look at that. We have
155 as well. So the threat is still there, although, it is starting to die down just a little bit.
We're still going to get very strong wind gusts, 65 to 95 kilometer per hour wind gusts still ahead. Road closure, travel disruptions still could
see more power outages since the winds are still very gusty. And the forecast wind gusts move to the east, but you can see just behind it by
Sunday into Monday, we get another round of very powerful winds roll through this area. So, as mentioned, sort of in-between systems, one will
move out, the next one will move in.
Still have a threat for severe weather across central sections of Europe. Tornadoes, very high wind gusts still expected across portions of Germany
and points to the east. This is through Saturday, so the big picture looking like this with a lot of rain still in the forecast, and wind. Snow
across northern sections. So, the forecast accumulation as far as rain and snow goes, well,15 millimeters of rain across southern sections of England
could pick up an additional 25. Hala?
GORANI: All right, thanks very much Jennifer Gray. And you know when there are high winds, there are always issues with planes landing. And if you're
a passenger during a big wind storm, it's never a pleasant experience. Well, it hasn't gone unnoticed by some very enthusiastic plane spotters at
London's largest airport. Jerry Dyer runs a YouTube channel that's called Big Jet TV. And basically, Jerry went viral in the last few hours today.
He's seen hundreds of thousands of people tune in to his live stream with his very dramatic commentary. It has to be said, sometimes very funny
commentary. And it's easy to see why so many were tuning in. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERRY DYER, PRESENTER, BIG JET TV: Easy, go on son -- oh, OK, Tippy toe, tip-tip toe, yes, big swing, man. Surely not. Surely not. He's going to do
it, he's going to do it -- oh, he's down, fair play, mate, fair play.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: OK, full disclosure, I kind of watched that live stream for like two-straight hours. It was very entertaining. He should be hired as a
sports commentator. This guy is fantastic. Still to come tonight, back to the very concerning news in Ukraine. A kindergarten classroom there covered
in rubble. A wall torn apart by a shell. CNN visits one of the most profound reminders of the cost of war.
Plus, analysts say Russia is no stranger to using false flags as a pretext to war. We'll discuss their history of using that tactic Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:30:00]
GORANI: According to U.S. officials, Russia is already engaging in one of those false flag operations to justify an invasion of Ukraine. Russia-
backed separatists in eastern Ukraine claim a vehicle was "blown up" near their headquarters. They are also appealing for civilians in the region to
evacuate to Russia and have started putting them on buses.
U.S. officials say these are both examples of false flags, both the explosion of that vehicle and the evacuation of the civilians to Russia.
And that in all of this, Russia is the sole aggressor, not Ukraine as Russia is claiming.
Many analysts say operations such as these are in Russia's wheelhouse, that the Kremlin has a long history of raising these false flags and using them
as pretext to invade or conduct military action.
Let's discuss with retired U.S. Army Lieutenant General and CNN military analyst Mark Hertling, thanks for being with us. So the U.S. is telling CNN
they believe this explosion of that Jeep-like Russian made vehicle was a false flag, as well as the Russian-backed separatists loading these
civilians onto buses, and sending them on their way to Russia. How do -- would this fit in with how Russia has used false flag incidents in the
past?
LT. GENERAL MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Hala, the Russian doctrine, the military doctrine, which I've been studying all of my
professional war, being a former cold warrior, incorporates something they call maskirovka. It is the Russian word for deception. They do it in every
kind of operation.
And in fact, there's pointed directions on how to use it at the tactical level on the battlefield at the operational level and campaigns and on the
strategic level when they're dealing with other nations. They want to confuse and mislead. So this is just another example or these are examples
of them doing exactly that, portraying that they are the ones that are being aggrieved, when in fact it's them causing or creating a rationale for
going to war.
GORANI: But the U.S. and its Western allies have repeatedly, over the last several weeks, said Russia will use such a tactic as a pretext to invade
Ukraine. So by raising that concern over and over again every day for a long time at various levels of the U.S. government and in other Western
countries, does that take the sting out of that strategy a little bit?
HERTLING: No, in fact, what it attempts to do is cut the misinformation, the disinformation, to say we know this is going to happen so just wait and
see and watch.
And in fact, Secretary Blinken, Secretary General Stoltenberg, the president, President Biden have all repeatedly said be prepared for these
kinds of actions. And when they occur, know that they are false, that it is misinformation. So it takes it takes the sting, if you will, out of what
people think is going on and saying we predicted this and Mr. Putin is not going to get away with it this time.
GORANI: And I guess my point was it could make -- I mean the point, the strategy of the U.S. and its allies is to make the Russian false flag a
tactic less effective potentially.
[14:35:08]
Because the disinformation would -- they hope have been dispelled before the fact.
HERTLING: Well, it's basically telling the population of various countries. Here's what you should expect to come. And by the way, the reason we expect
this is because these are the same kind of activities they used in places like Chechnya, like Georgia when they attacked there in 2008. In the
Balkans, in many other states, so be prepared for it. And when it happens, don't believe it.
GORANI: I wonder, do you think that there will be an invasion? I mean, I keep -- we've been covering this for weeks now. I keep thinking, where --
how is this In Vladimir Putin's best interest right now? It will cost them so much, potentially in lives, a lot, because this military operation is
expensive, then there will be the sanctions imposed on his country, sector- wide potentially this time, not just little tiny sanctions. That won't hurt him. Why would he do this now?
HERTLING: I have no idea, Hala. That's what is so confounding about all this, not only will there be death and destruction, sanctions as a result,
but you're also talking about the potential for Mr. Putin to go down in history, along with the likes -- and I'm going to do this comparison along
with the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, of attacking or going into other countries in the 21st century, for no apparent reason, other
than what he perceives as a national security threat.
Having been a guy who's been within Europe, as -- for 12 years of my 38 years, what I will tell you, this is the kind of thing that when you say
Mr. Putin is saying this is a security threat from NATO, NATO has been in exist -- had been in existence for -- in existence for over seven years,
have never invaded another country as a body, have never posed a threat to anyone. The only thing that NATO has done is offer an opportunity for
shared and collective security. And that's what nations like Romania, Bulgaria, the Baltic states, and Ukraine are interesting -- interested in
being a part of.
GORANI: You know what people watching in listening to you will say, who are perhaps on Russia's side, they'll say, well, look who's talking, the U.S.
went into Iraq based on faulty intelligence. Why are they giving us lessons? I could already hear from the other side of TV screens some people
saying that, but I completely take your point, that this is, as a military alliance, they have not gone in.
But I wonder, so you said you have no idea when I asked you what is in the interest of Vladimir Putin to do this. Could it just be that Vladimir Putin
believes that the post-Soviet order is unfair to Russia, that Ukraine should be in its orbit and that if that costs money, and if that costs
blood to Russia, it will be worth it? Could it be that?
HERTLING: It could be that, but I'm going to go back, if you don't mind, and address your other comment about, you know, those who will say the
United States did the same thing in Iraq. Yes, that's true. There were many in the military, I was one of them that said this would be a wrong move to
take to open up a second front when we were fighting in Afghanistan.
But one of the reasons for going to war was the belief and it was bad intelligence, to be sure, but it was belief that that intelligence was
true. As Secretary Blinken said yesterday, we're not going to war now, we're attempting to prevent a war and the death and destruction. So, yes,
Mr. Putin and all of his followers can say that I'm a typical American that just doesn't understand Russia. But I also don't understand, what are the
security concerns and what would cause someone to try and take away the sovereignty of a wonderful nation.
Having spent a lot of time in Ukraine, it is a great culture. It is very different than Russia. And it is a phenomenal nation. And I just don't
understand why someone would try and usurp that sovereignty for their own ego and hubris.
GORANI: And what Blinken said at the U.N. Security Council was interesting. He said, "I'm here to prevent war not to start a war," and so many and you
mentioned that quote, specific quote, saw that as an attempt to really differentiate his appearance at the U.N. Security Council from that 2003,
or I've lived believe it was maybe at the end of 2002, Colin Powell intervention at the U.N. Security Council to really make that very clear.
America does not want a war.
HERTLING: Right. And that's correct. And in fact, in 2002, when Colin Powell made that statement, he believed that there was a potential for
preemption of any attack by Saddam Hussein using chemical weapons -- chemical and nuclei -- nuclear weapons. The problem was the information was
false. But there were a lot of people believed it to be true and it would conflict there would prevent the use of that in the future.
[14:40:01]
GORANI: Mark Hertling, as always, such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for joining us from New York.
HERTLING: Thank you, Hala. Appreciate it.
GORANI: An incident in eastern Ukraine is giving us a stark reminder of the lives at stake in this conflict. Yesterday, a kindergarten in the Ukrainian
controlled territory in eastern Ukraine was hit by shelling. Thankfully no one died. Our Clarissa Ward takes a look at the damage that was left behind
and especially the fear that it caused.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Ukrainian military has brought us nearly 400 Miles towards the front lines in the east of the country. It's
already dark by the time we land. We'll only have a short time on the ground, but they are determined to show us the aftermath of heavy shelling
earlier in the day.
This kindergarten is less than three miles from the so-called line of contact, the front line, and witnesses in this area said that around 8:00
or 9:00 this morning they started to hear shelling, it was loud enough that they could hear the whistle of the shells going by and two of them landed
here at this kindergarten. Let's take a look.
At the end of the hallway, this is what remains of the playroom. The military says the first shell hit at 8:45. Mercifully, the children were
eating breakfast in another part of the building.
Teacher Yulia Semenenko tells me she immediately rushed them into the hallway away from the windows.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WARD: So she's saying in that moment, she was only really afraid for the children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WARD: I asked her how they reacted to the situation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WARD: "Our youngest children thought it was all a game at first, and we just let them pretend," she tells us. Our older children understood what
was happening and they were afraid.
A video released by Ukrainian police shows the kids being hastily evacuated from the building.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WARD: Obviously, it's very dark here. I'm not sure if you can see but this is actually a children's playground. And if you just turn over here, you
can see this is a crater. And the local authorities are telling us that this is where the other shell hit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WARD: Our time on the ground is restricted. Fighting usually begins after dark here. As we finish up a live shot, our Ukrainian minders grow nervous.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hear the sound?
WARD: Yes, I hear it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Let's go to the bus.
WARD: John, please excuse me, but our Ukrainian military minders are asking us to move because of that shelling. So, we will check in with you as soon
as we can. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's go.
WARD: Let's go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's go that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WARD: On an average day, there might be three or four major ceasefire violations around here. Today, the military says there have been more than
30.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Let's go back.
WARD: OK. They're telling us we have to go now. There's a steady stream of artillery that we can hear in the distance so we're getting onto the bus to
leave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WARD: In the hours after we leave, another shell. It's a house in the same town as this frontline continues to heat up at a time when calm is
desperately needed. Clarissa Ward, CNN, Stanytsia Luhanska Ukraine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: We'll have a lot more on our top story after a quick break. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:45:55]
GORANI: Let's talk about the Olympic games now and many observers are raising the question, was the pressure to win Olympic medals on top of all
the media attention simply too much for 15-year-old Kamila Valieva? The Russian figure skater finished in fourth place in the women's singles
yesterday after she fell multiple times. She'd been a favorite all along to win the gold medal. Valieva is dealing with a doping scandal that even
overshadowed her historic quad jump.
Now the International Skating Union says it will consider raising the minimum age for competition to 17, while the head of the International
Olympic Committee is vowing to punish those responsible for giving her a banned drug in the first place.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS BACH, PRESIDENT, INTERNATIONAL OLYMPIC COMMITTEE: When I afterward saw how she was received by her closest entourage, with such what appear to
be a tremendous coldness, you -- it was thrilling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: And the World Sport Anchor Don Riddell joins me now live from CNN Center. So what has been the sort of the aftermath as we've been able to
digest this really sad moment if you think about the age of this skater, and how might it change things in the future?
DON RIDDELL, CNN WORLD SPORT ANCHOR: Well, there are so many questions still to be answered. And the feeling for those of us who watched that
event play out, Hala, are still pretty raw. It was really just awful to see what unraveled for Kamila Valieva, but not just her, the other young women
that she was competing against on Thursday evening in Beijing. Some have even described what they witnessed as child abuse playing out live on
global television at the biggest sports event in the world.
You said at the top of the segment that did Valieva crumble under the pressure of trying to win a gold medal, I think she can handle the pressure
of trying to win a gold medal, she's the Russian champion. Arguably, it's harder doing that than winning gold at the Olympics because the top six
skaters in the world are all Russian. I think she crumbled under the pressure of everything that she had been put through in the last week or
so.
Cast into the eye of a storm, a huge doping controversy, she must have been wondering whether those who are supposed to be looking after her and
looking out for her really were.
And we heard the reaction from the Kremlin after Thomas Bach made his statement and their spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, basically said, you know
what, it's sport. Let's celebrate the gold and the silver medal that we did win, which really does seem to suggest a win at all-costs mentality because
the coach who received Valieva when she came off the ice began immediately criticizing -- critiquing her performance as if Valieva didn't know herself
that she hadn't skated up to her, you know, remarkable standards.
So I think, you know, the legacy of this incident, this event, will hopefully be profound. Hopefully it will lead to some changes because it
really was just an awful position that those athletes were put into.
However, there is happier news to report, Hala, I can tell you about the 18-year-old Eileen Gu who won gold in the halfpipe, making her the first
free -- freestyle skier to win three medals at one game. She is just 18 years of age. She was already the poster girl of these games, born in
California representing China. And she has more than justified the hype at the age of 18. Her resume is looking absolutely spectacular.
GORANI: All right. Yes. It'll be interesting to see if they raised the minimum age for skaters. It sounds like a good idea, anyway, when you see
what happened to this one. Thank you so much, Don. Still to come tonight, the stubborn variant that refuses to go away. Parts of Asia are battling a
rise in COVID cases. We're in Hong Kong next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:52:36]
GORANI: Police in Canada are trying to break up the "freedom convoy" protests that have been paralyzing the nation's capital. Today, they're
ramping up arrests and they're towing some of those big trucks blocking the way. They are targeting the movement's leadership. As Paula Newton reports,
many protesters say despite all that, they're not giving up.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Canada's capital and its Peace Tower remain under a state of emergency. And yet at the foot of Parliament,
protesters against COVID-19 measures are clinging to their cause.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm already at peace with myself. If I have to die here, I'm OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: This trucker says he's already been fired, his license and insurance canceled.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: But why stay because it's obviously costing you a lot to stay?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I have nothing to lose, lady. I came here. I have a normal life, normal job. I got only this cause.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: The cause has brought this city to its knees and in his place, there is a makeshift protest village united against the government. Police
have started arresting some and insist those and other enforcement actions are imminent. But police tolerance, so far, has infuriated residents and
emboldened protesters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KYLE NORBURY, PROTESTER: If I was scared for them to arrest me, I would have stopped doing what I'm doing out here. I would have stopped fighting
for this country but I'm not going to. So if they want to arrest me, I'm here. I'm not hiding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: Despite the bravado, convoy organizers have been blunt. They say they need more supporters to come and flood this city if they're to hold
their line against more aggressive police enforcement.
But police say they have reinforcements and new emergency powers and will secure downtown with nearly 100 checkpoints preventing anyone else from
joining the protests. They will encircle downtown. Tamara Lich, one of the Freedom convoy organizers, was emotional in a social media post hinting
she'd be arrested.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TAMARA LICH, ORGANIZER: I am -- I'm OK with that and I want you to know that I'm not afraid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: CNN has learned she was taken into custody late Thursday. The task ahead for police is complicated.
[14:55:01]
Hundreds of rigs and cars still line streets and dozens of children remain, too. City officials say they are being used as human shields to prevent
police moving in and arresting parents. This vaccinated military veteran doesn't see it that way. He's been here with his kids a few times.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's opened up a whole new debate and a divide in society. I haven't a clue how that's going to be solved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: And that is something most Canadians on either side of the divide agree on. Paula Newton CNN, Ottawa.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: And COVID cases are soaring across parts of Asia fueled by the Omicron variant. South Korea is reporting more than 100,000 new COVID cases
that's setting a daily record and Hong Kong is trying to contain a fifth wave of outbreaks. Its election has been postponed from March to May. Ivan
Watson is in Hong Kong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is something I never thought I'd see in Hong Kong. This is the entrance to the emergency
room of a hospital overflowing with patients right now, and across the street, an outdoor COVID isolation ward with dozens of patients laying in
hospital beds in the winter cold. Hong Kong is counting more than 6,000 New COVID infections a day and that number is likely to climb.
The city's policy has been that if you test positive, you need to go to a hospital and there clearly isn't enough room at this one for all the COVID
patients. For two years, the Hong Kong government has focused on keeping the virus out of this city. Clearly not enough work was done on the
possibility that COVID-19 could one day spread out of control inside the city.
The city officials have reached out to the Chinese central government for help. It is sending several mobile testing labs and specialists. And there
are plans being put together to possibly test the city's entire population of more than seven million people for COVID.
But if the patterns that we've seen in other countries around the world are any indicator, the crisis in Hong Kong is likely to get worse before it
gets any better. Ivan Watson, CNN, Hong Kong.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: All right. Well, thanks for watching this hour with me tonight. I'm Hala Gorani. I'll be with you on the other side of the break on "QUEST
MEANS BUSINESS." Don't go anywhere.
END
