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The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper
MisinfoNation: The Lost Left. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired September 22, 2024 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:43]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE WHOLE STORY. I'm Anderson Cooper.
The spread of misinformation and conspiracy theories has flourished. The rise of online social platforms that cater to extremist views with little to no regard for what's true and what's not.
CNN's Donie O'Sullivan has spent years talking to people who've fallen for these conspiracy theories. But tonight he's focusing on a group of people you probably haven't heard from, young men who were once liberal Democrats but have changed their views in some pretty surprising ways they say after becoming disillusioned with politics.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): I spend a lot of my time at conferences, and there is a subtle art to a successful one. Like making sure there's plenty of refreshments, creating room for stimulating conversation.
At a good conference, you can feel like you're at home but sometimes conferences are a mixed bag.
MIKE LINDELL, CEO, MYPILLOW: Cameraman of the year. CNN, Donnie, how you doing?
O'SULLIVAN: Sometimes you get a warm welcome. Sometimes you get harassed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think it's funny?
O'SULLIVAN: Sometimes you even get hacked.
You arrived in Vegas and got hacked within an hour?
(Voice-over): Sometimes you have to make your own fun.
It's Memorial Day weekend and I'm not at a barbecue or watching a parade. I'm in Michigan for one of the biggest gatherings of pro- Palestinian activists in the country. But someone who is not welcome here is a 24-year-old named Jackson Hinkle.
JACKSON HINKLE, U.S. BASED POLITICAL ANALYST AND HOST, "THE DIVE": You're not prepared to admit that Israel is a terrorist organization?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because you're wrong.
HINKLE: Kim Jong-un is a peace-seeking leader despite what, you know, the talking heads say. We're going to de-NATO-fy you, friend.
PIERS MORGAN, BRITISH TV HOST: OK.
HINKLE: And we're going to de-Nazify you.
MORGAN: All right. You just sound completely bonkers.
O'SULLIVAN: Jackson is holding another much smaller event for Gaza across town.
What's your name?
MERRICK: Merrick.
O'SULLIVAN: Merrick?
MERRICK: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: Nice to meet you. How are you?
(Voice-over): He and his followers call themselves MAGA communists. And that isn't supposed to be a joke.
You guys always for Jackson and --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you a journalist?
O'SULLIVAN: I am. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
O'SULLIVAN: Do I not look like one?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first journalist.
O'SULLIVAN: Well, you've come all this way to be here.
MERRICK: Yes, yes, yes. I feel like Jackson, he always speaks what he thinks. He doesn't have a filter.
O'SULLIVAN: All right. It's about 30 minutes to go, but yes, let's see if they sell it out. I don't know. I don't know what -- I do not know what to expect. A lot of kids in suits.
(Voice-over): Among the suits a Democrat-turned-MAGA communists in a Hawaiian tanked up and flip-flops who calls himself Charmhole.
ADAM SERVICE, "CHARMHOLE", MAGA COMMUNIST, STREAMER: Charmhole. Follow me on everything.
O'SULLIVAN: So that's your online name? SERVICE: Yes, my online name.
O'SULLIVAN: Not your --
SERVICE: My actual name is Adam Service.
O'SULLIVAN: OK.
SERVICE: I'm incredibly American, born and raised in Ohio.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. So you're a streamer.
SERVICE: Yes, yes. I've been on Twitch, but I've been banned off Twitch a few times. They don't like me because I'm very political like these guys.
O'SULLIVAN: OK.
SERVICE: My heroes, which is weird to say since they're younger than me. But --
O'SULLIVAN: These guys are your heroes?
SERVICE: Yes, absolutely.
O'SULLIVAN: Seriously?
SERVICE: Yes, yes. I wouldn't be here if they weren't.
O'SULLIVAN: So are you a MAGA communist?
SERVICE: Absolutely, MAGA communist. I used to hate Trump. I would call him old -- not sure if I'm allowed to cuss or say bad things here.
O'SULLIVAN: No, you can cuss. Yes. Yes.
SERVICE: Well, yes, no, I used to call him a pedophile, a little retard, stuff like that because I was a big Bernie bro, I was like, I'll do anything for Bernie. Anything, right? And that's why I love these guys because they just assume you're smart. They're going to tell you all the smartest stuff, and if you don't get it, then you're just going to miss out on the next big thing, which hopefully is MAGA communism or at least America's form of communism.
O'SULLIVAN: MAGA communism.
SERVICE: MAGA communism.
O'SULLIVAN: You know people watching CNN are going to say, you're (EXPLETIVE DELETED) crazy.
SERVICE: Absolutely. I would hope so.
HINKLE: How's it going, everybody?
(CHANTING)
HINKLE: All right. This is great. It's good to be here. We actually have CNN in the building with us tonight. They're filming some propaganda documentary.
(BOOING)
[20:05:02]
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): The crowd here was mostly male and mostly white.
HINKLE: You know, today's event is called "Free America to Free Palestine." Shoutout to the AI gods for giving this beautiful shot of the American Cowboys with the Palestine flag. We need to stop supporting, you know, these genocidal maniacs. Then we need to, of course, arrest everyone who is committing these crimes at this very moment, which is almost all of Congress and the White House.
O'SULLIVAN: But Jackson had barely started speaking about Gaza.
HINKLE: I've been to Russia, I've been to China. Their major cities are much nicer.
O'SULLIVAN: Before he launched into pro-Russia and pro-China talking points.
HINKLE: Now Russia is better and stronger than ever before, and their leader has a very high approval rating. The more America supports real terrorist entities like Israel, real terrorist countries like Ukraine, the more that we strengthen our actual enemies. And I will just say once and for all, so Piers Morgan never has to ask me again, no, I do not condemn Hamas. Very simple.
(APPLAUSE)
O'SULLIVAN: Jackson's social media following skyrocketed after the October 7th attack on Israel.
HINKLE: Joe Biden is plunging us into a fascist state.
O'SULLIVAN: And he's a big fan of Vladimir Putin.
HINKLE: Most of what is said about Vladimir Putin in the mainstream press is just factually not true. We as communists want to unite with MAGA voters and finish the job of Donald Trump.
O'SULLIVAN: As the event came to a close, super fans lined up to meet Jackson.
SERVICE: That was the most inspiring thing I've ever seen in my entire live. I've seen Barack Obama speak. That was something to behold, for sure. You see all the people there and you think, wow, I'm really a part of something.
O'SULLIVAN: I really don't, I really cannot tell if you're doing a bit.
(Voice-over): But not everyone who came here was a fan of Jackson's.
What did you think?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think he's an insane person.
O'SULLIVAN: Insane?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think he's insane. Rightfully criticize America where they should be criticized, but then glorifies the Chinese Communist Party, North Korea, terrorists, you know, that have kidnapped and murdered people. I think it's weird how he ties himself to MAGA and MAGA communism when Donald Trump is the most pro-Israeli president that's ever lived. MAGA, communism are complete polar opposites essentially.
O'SULLIVAN: Are you going to try to speak to him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I'm going to try to speak to him.
O'SULLIVAN: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to do so as a gentleman.
HINKLE: Nice to meet you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nice to meet you.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): (INAUDIBLE), a provocateur in his own right --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've asked about Palestine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who propped up Hamas? Why do we think Hamas had the ability to do what they did?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's called propaganda.
O'SULLIVAN: Has a history of appearing on online conservative media.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's one thing, when you talk about, I just want to -- I want to make sure I understand. When you go into the things about China or Russia, Iran, especially China, you omit so much about them.
HINKLE: Where you from?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm from Texas. And the things that you --
HINKLE: Have you lived in China?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have lived in China. I went to Tsinghua University. You don't say that 600 million people in the country still logged on less than $1.40 a day.
HINKLE: Well, you --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why don't you say those things?
HINKLE: OK. OK. You're very, very emotional. Like a woman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am. Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: Jackson quickly realized that he wasn't talking to just another fan.
HINKLE: All right. CNN propaganda. CNN propaganda. This guy is a CNN agent 100 percent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think CNN is the worst outlet in the country.
HINKLE: Time to get out, buddy. Danny, Danny, get this guy out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Couldn't answer the question, could he? Didn't think so. Put that on CNN.
O'SULLIVAN: But the men that we met here weren't always this way.
HINKLE: My name is Jackson Hinkle.
O'SULLIVAN: A few years ago Jackson was campaigning for progressive causes.
SERVICE: I was BLM originally. BLM has been co-opted by NATO, by the government.
O'SULLIVAN: And Adam, AKA, Charmhole, changed as well.
So you used to be a big liberal. You used to be a big liberal.
SERVICE: Absolutely.
O'SULLIVAN: A big Democrat. You were a Bernie Bro?
SERVICE: Bernie Bro through and through.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): I wanted to find out what had made them change.
Why do you think the Russians like you so much?
HINKLE: I speak truth.
O'SULLIVAN: Good to see you, man.
SERVICE: American politics is schizophrenic. You got one side saying you're crazy, you get the other side saying you're crazy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Here to see Charmhole. Adam Service. Adam campaigned for Bernie Sanders. Now he's a big fan of Jackson Hinkle, and in his own words, he is terminally online.
How are you doing?
SERVICE: I'm good.
O'SULLIVAN: Good to see you, man. Gotten taller since I've seen you.
SERVICE: I've gotten shorter. I think my dad is hiding.
O'SULLIVAN: He doesn't want to be on CNN?
SERVICE: Dad was here to talk all about how this is a funeral parlor.
O'SULLIVAN: This was a funeral parlor?
SERVICE: Yes. Like 100 years ago. This is actually my mom's hometown.
O'SULLIVAN: OK.
SERVICE: Her dad, a World War II vet. Pacific theater. So he passed away I believe four years ago. And my mom passed away two years ago.
O'SULLIVAN: OK.
SERVICE: Her dad always had a saying, that was his chair. If you go up to the bathroom or cook something, right, you jump in his chair and then he'd come out, he'd say, would you jump in my grave this fast? Two years later, she jumped right in.
O'SULLIVAN: All right. I need to see where you are terminally online.
SERVICE: I've cleaned up a little bit for you.
O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.
SERVICE: So what I've got is 2K monitor right here, curved Samsung Odyssey G7, love this sucker. 240 frames a second.
O'SULLIVAN: Could I like pull in a chair maybe to sit with you?
SERVICE: Actually yes.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Like millions of other video gamers, Adam watches live streams on platforms like Twitch, where fellow gamers often talk politics.
How many hours a day would you say you play up here?
SERVICE: Play, excuse me? This is work right now. This is research. I'm listening to Dan Bongino while also talking to you and playing Championship Rocky League. I've God Gamer, all right? Remember that.
O'SULLIVAN: Sorry. How many hours a day are you God Gaming?
SERVICE: I mean, it's a full-time job. So anywhere from six to 10 hours. O'SULLIVAN: Wow.
DAN BONGINO, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: It's hard to understand how disgusting politics is.
SERVICE: True. Politics is disgusting. So normally what I'll have is, you know, I got Discord blown up, Rumble. So I got Bongino, ex-Secret Service telling me all about how Joe Biden and Cococam cam almost allowed Trump to get JFK'd. And I'll do that while playing videogames.
O'SULLIVAN: Is there a Taco Bell here? I've never had a Taco Bell.
SERVICE: You've never had Taco Bell? There's nothing more American than Taco Bell.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. Could I get four cheesy street chalupas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry but we don't serve street chalupas in the morning.
SERVICE: Dang. That's OK.
O'SULLIVAN: That's OK.
SERVICE: Hope it was worth it. No, just never have leftover Taco Bell.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Adam has moved back to his small hometown in rural Ohio after years of living in Bloomington, Indiana, a city about four hours away.
[20:15:01]
All right. So tell me, though, Jackson Hinkle.
SERVICE: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: MAGA communism.
SERVICE: Oh, yes. MAGA communism.
O'SULLIVAN: MAGA communism sounds like the dumbest thing ever to me.
SERVICE: So it's --
O'SULLIVAN: How can you define it?
SERVICE: Boomer, you cannot define it to boomers, right? Because boomers --
O'SULLIVAN: I'm a millennial, I think.
SERVICE: Right, yes. OK. So it's like I said, you have to remember this. Communism is the Russian word for conservatism.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): No, it's not.
SERVICE: At the next intersection you want to take a left or else we're just going to see a whole bunch of beans and corn.
O'SULLIVAN: Do you ever miss the bright lights of Bloomington?
SERVICE: No. No, not at all.
O'SULLIVAN: I feel like you view your time in Indiana in the city as kind of like a period of your life that's over now, right?
SERVICE: Yes. Oh, yes. Campaigned for Bernie, you know. Calling all my Facebook friends racist because they didn't want to vote for Obama, you know.
O'SULLIVAN: Last time I saw you Biden was still in the race. So are you -- I'm guessing you're just not a Harris fan.
SERVICE: She's a Zogbot.
O'SULLIVAN: What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is a Zogbot?
SERVICE: You don't know what's a Zogbot? All right. Zionist Operated Government. We are --
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Adam casually banters in the kind of hateful speech he regularly sees in memes and online slang.
Well, what happens in November if Harris wins?
SERVICE: If they don't make it too big to rig --
O'SULLIVAN: Sir, you said --
SERVICE: -- and she, again, like they did four years ago, because the DNC definitely cheats which Bernie just admitted live.
O'SULLIVAN: So you're saying the only way Harris could win is if they cheat?
SERVICE: Yes, 1,000 percent. See, this is a thing and that's probably what you're going to cut this all up into is me being like a really bad, evil white man racist that, oh, man, I just hate Democrats, I hate liberals, like, we're a bunch of commies, you know, and it's like, OK, one, I was just a part of them four years ago. I was in it, right. I've been betrayed by them multiple times. So now I'm trying my hand at being betrayed by their (INAUDIBLE).
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But Adam's departure from the left has taken him down a dark path to people like white supremacist Nick Fuentes, conspiracy theorist Alex Jones, and MAGA communist Jackson Hinkle. Adam is among the 8 percent of Bernie Sanders supporters in the 2020 Democratic primary, who are now pro-Trump.
And you actually find in Jackson Hinkle impressive? You actually --
SERVICE: Yes. Fundamentally, I have to because, one, he's really good looking. He's fundamentally a handsome man, right?
O'SULLIVAN: When we first met, you said that being American man, being masculine, it's been kind of equated with toxicity.
SERVICE: It's -- that's because it is by nature. We are naturally acidic, but we can also bust nuts and create more humans.
O'SULLIVAN: But the woman has a role in that, too, right?
SERVICE: Yes. They make the men. That's what my mom would always say. There's two things she ever wanted to do in her life, be a nurse and have boys. She did both. That's why she died happy. You know? She died fulfilled. This is why I was such a liberal growing up was because my dad would always listen to Rush Limbaugh, you know, and he's always yelling. And he's really mad about everything, everything is going to shit, you know. And I was like, according to mom, this is toxic. This is bad.
So then I just naturally, you know, had an aversion to conservatism.
O'SULLIVAN: And men.
SERVICE: And masculinity. That's why I got called gay for so much. I mean that and the blonde hair.
O'SULLIVAN: You've got called gay?
SERVICE: Yes. All the time, in this park, constantly.
O'SULLIVAN: So one thing you brought up, you had a spell in a mental health hospital. Do you take any meds for --
SERVICE: They try to get me on Zyprexa. It was like $280 a month.
O'SULLIVAN: Right.
SERVICE: I laughed at that, I said, yes, right.
O'SULLIVAN: If you could afford it, would you?
SERVICE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) no. No, I just smoked weed instead.
O'SULLIVAN: I've been on antidepressants myself for about 12 years now.
SERVICE: Oh, my Jesus.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
SERVICE: No wonder you're so good at being true neutral. You got no emotions to mess with you.
Hey, Donie, what's up today? How are you feeling? Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: OK. Probably grew up in a family like yours.
SERVICE: Yes? Did the playground kids call you gay?
O'SULLIVAN: No, they called me fat, though. SERVICE: You're always this fat?
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
SERVICE: You can change. You get off those mood stabilizers, start throwing the bear ball.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Adam's use of homophobic, racist, and antisemitic slurs is something that he sees as, quote-unquote, "edgy."
You keep saying Zogbot.
SERVICE: I'm only using Zogbot because I've been listening to a lot of Nick Fuentes.
O'SULLIVAN: You're not a Nick Fuentes fan?
SERVICE: Not necessarily. I think that --
O'SULLIVAN: He's a white supremacist.
SERVICE: Well, think about it. No --
O'SULLIVAN: He's a white supremacist.
SERVICE: OK. He's a white proponent.
O'SULLIVAN: He's an antisemite.
SERVICE: He's gracefully white.
O'SULLIVAN: He is an antisemite.
SERVICE: He loves Kanye. And Alex Jones who they've been trying to nail for God knows how long now.
O'SULLIVAN: You're an Alex Jones fan?
SERVICE: Absolutely. Right now, absolutely.
[20:20:01]
O'SULLIVAN: But you don't believe the stuff he said about Sandy Hook kids?
SERVICE: I mean --
O'SULLIVAN: Why is it -- there shouldn't be --
SERVICE: I wasn't then. I did at first.
O'SULLIVAN: This should not be a difficult -- this shouldn't be a difficult question for you to answer.
SERVICE: Well, look at the evidence, Let's say that he started to look into it and it turns out Obama had those kids murdered on purpose. O'SULLIVAN: But he didn't.
SERVICE: But if he died that's still a possibility because he was president. And by purpose, I still mean negligence.
O'SULLIVAN: What about the parents of the children, right?
SERVICE: What about them?
(CROSSTALK)
O'SULLIVAN: Alex Jones is doing is making these tragedies so much worse.
SERVICE: No. How do you get worse than child death?
O'SULLIVAN: I'll tell you how.
SERVICE: How?
O'SULLIVAN: By having idiots who watch Alex Jones show up and start harassing the parents of the children who died in the Sandy Hook shooting. That's how you make it worse.
(Voice-over): Adam and I were going around in circles on this nonsense when my photographer Andrew weighed in from behind the camera.
ANDREW, CNN PHOTOJOURNALIST: I just want to say something. I see a lot of view in me.
SERVICE: Yes.
ANDREW: What if told you I grew up five minutes from Sandy Hook, just I was there, you know. Like I was there right away.
SERVICE: You know somebody?
ANDREW: I knew the nurse, her mother was killed that day, and I grew up with her daughter. And everyone in town knows the dad.
SERVICE: OK.
ANDREW: You know?
SERVICE: Yes, small town. When something like that happens. That's why I said earlier that maybe it was Obama who killed those children.
O'SULLIVAN: Andrew, my photographer, had briefly brought a dose of reality to the fantasy world that Adam lives in online.
We left Adam to travel to the Democratic National Convention in Chicago, where we were about to meet one of his former Twitch heroes, Hasan Piker.
HASAN PIKER, TWITCH STREAMER: What is going on with this, bro? Chicago put some crazy (EXPLETIVE DELETED) on their dog. O'SULLIVAN: And some other familiar faces.
Mike?
LINDELL: Where are you?
O'SULLIVAN: Mike Lindell is in here.
PIKER: Dude, wait, MyPillow guy is here.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. Yes. Yes. He has no mustache.
PIKER: Oh, he actually shaved it? Oh, my god. We have to find him.
LINDELL: Wow, we're interviewing each other.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:26:54]
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTER: Palestine will be free.
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Palestine will be free.
O'SULLIVAN: It's the first morning of the Democratic National Convention in Chicago. And pro-Palestinian protesters are already gathering.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think people here came in peace. I'm came in peace. I'm asking for peace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I'm hoping to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) shut up without getting arrested.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dude, chill out, chill out. We're all friends.
O'SULLIVAN: It is tense here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're just press.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then why did we run?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're sorry about that one.
O'SULLIVAN: Organizers are right to be worried.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) these guys. They're (EXPLETIVE DELETED) scumbags. They're ruining America.
O'SULLIVAN: Not everyone here is on their side.
Loads of pro-Palestine demonstrators gathering over here. Small group of pro-Israeli demonstrators and among them we found some MAGA influencers.
JACK POSOBIEC, HOST, HUMAN EVENTS: Hey, who are you with? O'SULLIVAN: CNN.
POSOBIEC: Oh, no.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): We watched as far-right troll and pizza-gate conspiracy theorist Jack Posobiec tried to disguise himself as a pro- Palestine protester.
POSOBIEC: Now the mainstream media isn't going to be out here. I haven't seen anyone from the mainstream media that's hanging out here.
O'SULLIVAN: But his disguise didn't work out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Jack. How are you? This is a right-wing fascist.
O'SULLIVAN: Jack the troll got trolled.
POSOBIEC: How many abortions have you had today?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am getting paid by George Soros to have an abortion on the stage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll be broadcasting live.
O'SULLIVAN: But it's not just outside the event. This year's DNC was the first where creators or influencers were treated the same as the mainstream press. One of the biggest stars in the new world of news consumption is Hasan Piker.
PIKER: I'll put this in the trunk, too. How are you letting this guy drive?
O'SULLIVAN: How do you explain what it is you do?
PIKER: I have a pretty easy explanation for people that are older. I basically do what Rush Limbaugh used to do, right, but online instead of on radio. And also, I don't have brain worms.
This game is wild.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Hasan has almost three million followers on the video game streaming platform Twitch.
PIKER: I'm talking for eight to 10 hours every day, and --
O'SULLIVAN: Eight to 10 hours a day?
PIKER: Yes. Yes.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Where he streams live almost all day watching the news.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The former president was found guilty of all 34 felony counts.
O'SULLIVAN: And playing video games.
PIKER: How do we fight again? I totally forgot.
O'SULLIVAN: Sometimes plan a character named after me. He even tries to do an Irish accent.
PIKER: My name is Donie O'Sullivan, sir. I'm fascinated with Republicans and I obviously always loved the hits that you would do when you go to these rallies and you talk to them.
O'SULLIVAN: People may, you know, people might confuse us.
PIKER: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: You're 6'4" built. Like myself.
PIKER: Like you are as well.
O'SULLIVAN: Are you a Harris supporter?
PIKER: I wouldn't say I'm a Harris supporter.
O'SULLIVAN: You'll vote for her?
PIKER: Maybe. We'll see. I get a lot of criticism from the Democratic Party loyalists regardless.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
(Voice-over): Hasan was about to try and live stream all day from the DNC.
PIKER: I pray to God that the internet is stable. Wait, this is my permanent space? This is fire. I mean, I, this is cool and it's a much cooler than I anticipated.
[20:30:05]
O'SULLIVAN: I can see CNN from here. Anderson! Anderson! The restraining order. So this is in your rider.
PIKER: That would not be in my rider.
O'SULLIVAN: Protein. We need more protein in here.
PIKER: It would feature core power, elite, 42 grams of protein, 230 calories.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): On the face of it, Hasan is a bro, one of these so-called masculine men that Jackson and Charmhole revere and aspire to be.
Do you know about this MAGA communism?
PIKER: Yes. Jackson Hinkle being one of them. He was like a Bernie Bro I think back in the day. I don't know anything about the guy. O'SULLIVAN: You were Bernie guy, you're Bernie Bro?
PIKER: Yes. I like Bernie a lot. Yes.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But Hasan says his brand of masculinity is very, very different to Jackson's.
HINKLE: Hitler at the end of the war, he killed himself. He's a (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
PIKER: Like how does this happen where you are to the right of Adolf Hitler?
O'SULLIVAN: What is it about some of these guys that has made them go from far-left to far-right?
HINKLE: Like every young man at a certain of their lives have liked had some kind of insecurity, whether it'd be about their sexuality or whether it'd be about like their future prospects or whatever. And I think that like a lot of these guys take advantage of that and present this false narrative that like in order to be a man, you got to be like homophobic. It's like no, a real man is going to want to protect people who are marginalized.
O'SULLIVAN: It really is getting intertwined more and more with politics where a lot of young men who are disillusioned for whatever reason, they don't have a girlfriend, they don't have a job and they have people telling them, wait, this is not your fault. And to some extent, you know, it's a societal issue, of course. But here specifically is who to blame in a way that can have profound impacts for our society and our politics.
HINKLE: Yes, I mean, you're absolutely correct, which is why I always advocate to fix the underlying material inequalities that creates a perfect opportunity for these kind of guys to be radicalized in this way.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): The DNC had given Hasan a nice setup.
PIKER: Whoa, I just -- I just dropped zero. What is happening?
O'SULLIVAN: But didn't give the Twitch streamer the thing he needed most. A working internet connection.
PIKER: It's completely gone. The internet is completely gone. They shut it off.
O'SULLIVAN: With the Grace Patti Labelle rehearsing behind him.
PIKER: What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
O'SULLIVAN: We left Hasan to figure out his technical difficulties.
PIKER: (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
O'SULLIVAN: As we move around the DNC, we saw more and more creators and influencers each one trying to upstage the other.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I'm here at the Democratic --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: DNC day one.
O'SULLIVAN: What is a Skibidi?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's such B.S.
O'SULLIVAN: So you got Ben and Ari here, he got a right-wing guy versus really big supporter for Harris here. I got to give it to them. They are arguing statistics and policies. It hasn't devolved into a culture war bullshit yet.
(Voice-over): But that didn't last long.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, well, I did it. I used the gender neutral bathroom and out of who you are, there is something wrong with that.
O'SULLIVAN: Ben had soon moved on to the convention's gender neutral restrooms.
How was that experience?
LINDELL: I'll tell you why.
O'SULLIVAN: He was joined at the restrooms by Mike Lindell, the pillow salesman and election denier, who was all too in disguise.
LINDELL: Shaving up my mustache. We're going inside the Democratic convention in disguise.
Are you from Ireland?
O'SULLIVAN: I did not recognize you.
(Voice-over): Mike isn't exactly discreet.
LINDELL: I snuck in. I'm in the Democrat convention.
O'SULLIVAN: Lindell debated, too, with a 12-year-old content creator.
LINDELL: 257,000 votes, this happened last week. A judge ruled in Georgia.
O'SULLIVAN: Who wasn't buying it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So your source is trust me, bro? That's your source? He provided no facts, no sources.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike Lindell just got rolled by a 12-year-old.
O'SULLIVAN: Jackson Hinkle didn't make it to Chicago for the convention this summer, but he had made multiple trips to Russia.
HINKLE: Now I'm in Vladivostok. I'm safe for the time being. O'SULLIVAN: I wanted to find out who Jackson really is. So we finally
got to speak to him.
You are an absolute gift to the propagandas in Russia and China.
HINKLE: I'm a gift to the free people of the world.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): And to some of the people who knew him best.
Are you worried for him?
JOSH GREENE, JACKSON HINKLE'S FORMER FRIEND, FILMMAKER: I'm more worried for myself. I'm doing this right now, honestly, but --
O'SULLIVAN: Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't want his army coming after me for speaking out against the MAGA communism movement.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:39:21]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vote for hope, not fear and divisiveness. Surfers for Kennedy. Surfers for Kennedy. Surfers for Kennedy. What do you think about a surfing president? Get him, get him, get him.
O'SULLIVAN: What's his name?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: BT.
O'SULLIVAN: He's beautiful.
(Voice-over): A surfing competition isn't exactly where you might expect all of this political activity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Free Hunter Biden, man. Free Hunter Biden. He's my president.
O'SULLIVAN: But this is an election year and this is Orange County in Southern California.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I voted for Reagan.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I voted for Perot. And ever since then I voted Democrat. I feel heartbroken about the corruption of the Democratic Party.
[20:40:02]
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Irina Maurice (PH) voted Democrat for decades, but since RFK dropped out of the race and endorsed Trump, she says she'll now probably vote MAGA.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm voting against the appointee from the swamp factory.
O'SULLIVAN: Jackson Hinkle has had a similar albeit more dramatic journey from the political left to the political right. Before he was a social media firebrand and before he was a darling of the Kremlin and Russian state TV, Jackson grew up here. And just a few short years ago, he was a soft-spoken kid who picked up trash on the beach and organized to cut down on plastics in his school.
GREENE: We really bonded because we're in the same environmental science class.
O'SULLIVAN: Josh Greene was friends with Jackson all throughout their teens.
GREENE: We were some of the few liberal students in our entire school. We had a very conservative student body.
O'SULLIVAN: Josh and Jackson campaigned for liberal causes together.
GREENE: And so we would often be ridiculed for standing up for progressive issues like the environment or gun safety or gay rights. You know, people thought that we were, you know, soft, leftist, snowflakes.
O'SULLIVAN: After Jackson graduated high school, he was the youngest person here to run for city council.
HINKLE: I think that a good city council candidate has to be well- versed on the issues.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Orange County is very conservative. What are you (INAUDIBLE) kids up to in this run for office?
HINKLE: We're up to a lot right now.
JIM SMITH, JACKSON'S FORMER COMMUNICATIONS COACH: He had a remarkable little career considering it was just out of high school. He's putting himself through junior college and he was responsible for the all the solar panels that you see around San Clemente High School and that was his idea. And he just had that drive, that drive that you see in some young people but not a lot of them.
O'SULLIVAN: A natural communicator?
SMITH: Pretty much.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
(Voice-over): Jackson lost his election bid and sometime thereafter lost his youthful politics as well.
HINKLE: And a lot of what I had been force-fed through my education as a young individual was all propaganda.
O'SULLIVAN: Something had turned him into this.
HINKLE: You're going to kind of go down the path of (EXPLETIVE DELETED) like that. They were all transgenders and gays.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)?
HINKLE: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: I've been searching for answers about Jackson and he agreed to sit down and talk to me directly.
You're promoting something called MAGA communism.
HINKLE: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: Which to a lot of people is going to sound moronic.
HINKLE: Well, I think it causes a lot of people to reassess their cancellation of the MAGA working class and they've been written off. They've been called racist or, you know, any sorts of names. They've just been canceled.
O'SULLIVAN: You are in some ways the quintessential American man, right? You're surfer guy, California. So for the Russians or the Chinese to have somebody like you to go over there and basically shit all over America.
HINKLE: No, no, no. Oh, no shitting on America. I love this country. I love the people. I just want it to be better.
O'SULLIVAN: Is there not a way to do that without having to fly back and forth to Moscow and seemed to be embracing authoritarian regimes?
HINKLE: Well, they're far less authoritarian than the United States.
O'SULLIVAN: Come on, man.
HINKLE: Ultimately we are --
(CROSSTALK)
HINKLE: No, no, ultimately, I live in the generation where for the first time there's going to be a lower standard of living than the previous generation. That's not good.
O'SULLIVAN: And I mean, I get -- I hear all that. But when you say Russia and China have got it better.
HINKLE: Well, their major cities are much nicer if you go and take high-speed rail hours into China.
O'SULLIVAN: You can't genuinely say that people in Russia and people in China have more liberties than people in the United States.
HINKLE: Well, there's no free speech.
O'SULLIVAN: You have a lot of free speech.
HINKLE: Really? O'SULLIVAN: You do.
HINKLE: You think I have free speech?
O'SULLIVAN: You don't think you have free speech?
HINKLE: No. I mean, what's the public square today? It's obviously social media.
O'SULLIVAN: You have three million followers on X. You can post whatever you want. You're hosting events here. How do you not have free speech? What part of free speech is being curtailed?
HINKLE: It's very simple. It's very simple. It's very simple. Yes, I have three million followers on X. But what about Instagram, I've been banned. YouTube, I've been banned. I was banned from Raya, a dating site.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Jackson's bans might have something to do with his repeated sharings of hateful posts and his celebrations of violence.
HINKLE: You look like you're in pain.
O'SULLIVAN: I've been left frustrated and confused by Jackson. Did he really believe all the stuff he was saying or was he just doing it all for social media clout or for money?
I just don't know if I believe you.
(Voice-over): Whatever his motivations, his message and his propaganda is resonating.
GREENE: You know, like Donald Trump, Jackson has definitely found a way to build an audience of people who feel disenfranchised or feel pushed away by our society and our system.
O'SULLIVAN: Was there ever a moment for you where you were like what the hell is going on, my friend?
GREENE: One of the first was when he did the interview with Tucker Carlson.
HINKLE: Joe Biden is plunging us into a fascist state.
[20:45:02]
GREENE: Because Tucker Carlson is an asshole. Somebody who like Jackson either believes what they're saying or because they get paid a lot to do it. Jackson describes himself as a communist, right. Why? Because he smoked a lot of weed and read Karl Marx? He's the biggest (EXPLETIVE DELETED) capitalist I've ever seen.
I'm so disappointed in what's happened to Jackson. He had this opportunity to be something really positive. But he has become the king of conspiracy theories. O'SULLIVAN: The king of conspiracy theories.
Have you heard of somebody called Jackson Hinkle?
BRIAN BECKER, NATIONAL DIRECTOR, ANSWER COALITION: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: What do you think about him?
BECKER: Not my politics at all.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Jackson had been condemned and disavowed by established pro-Palestinian activists.
MOHAMMED NABULSI, ORGANIZER, PALESTINIAN YOUTH MOVEMENT: People see our cause and our issue as their playground a lot of the times.
O'SULLIVAN: But he isn't alone in resetting his political compass.
SERVICE: I feel more like a man already just listening to these gentlemen.
O'SULLIVAN: And some of us reflects a big change in American politics.
JOSHUA FRANK, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, COUNTERPUNCH: I think a lot of the younger generation they have a different perspective of U.S. history of colonialization. They're skeptical of what the government is telling them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:50:40]
O'SULLIVAN: Oh, wow. This is a great setup. And where is CNN from here?
PIKER: He shaved his mustache in an effort to be incognito.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Back at the DNC.
PIKER: Dude, I have a better location than Jake Tapper. You should tell Jake that.
O'SULLIVAN: Hasan had finally got some working internet.
You are the news now.
PIKER: I think most people who are like not exactly fans of my perspective are still like, well, that's a famous guy, you know what I mean?
O'SULLIVAN: Yes, yes.
(Voice-over): Hasan's streams live on Twitch pretty much everywhere he goes, even when he's grabbing lunch. He's not a Jackson Hinkle fan and actively calls out the kind of hate Jackson spreads. But -- PIKER: I will say this. There are a lot of people that are on the
payroll of the American government or at least working at the behest of the American military industrial complex that's a metric ton of propaganda that has never considered propaganda in that same vein as what Jackson Hinkle is doing.
Now, I don't even know what his background is in terms of like, if he's getting funded by foreign governments or whatnot.
O'SULLIVAN: For all his chauvinism and misinformation, Jackson is speaking to a different understanding of America.
Covid changed the world. There was a radicalization on the right when it came to lockdowns, when it came to masks.
PIKER: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: What about on the other side?
PIKER: The American project hinges on being able to afford your treats. The moment that you're access to your treats that are affordable are restricted everything will (EXPLETIVE DELETED) fall apart. Society collapses because then you're like, well, what the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) am I doing this for? You know. I have a shit-ass job, no future prospects, barely can make payments. But at least I go to Applebee's and get $5 jalopy no poppers.
O'SULLIVAN: Right.
PIKER: OK? And hang out with the boys and slam a couple brews, watch some (EXPLETIVE DELETED) football. COVID broke that a little bit. All of a sudden everyone was like, well, OK, what's the whole purpose of this then if I can't have my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) treat. I think that that was like the breaking point for a lot of people.
O'SULLIVAN: Jackson Hinkle eight years ago was like a Bernie kid. Now he's hanging out at the Kremlin basically. How does that happen?
FRANK: I don't think his political compass is very well aligned.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Joshua Frank is the editor of Counterpunch, one of the best-known left-wing magazines in the world.
FRANK: I certainly don't think he's on the left. I don't know what a MAGA communist actually is, and I don't think he does.
GREENE: One thing that Jackson and I can agree on, we're both American patriots in the sense that we're willing to criticize our own country. I don't disagree with everything that he says. I think there's way too much Russia-phobia in this country. Obviously the war with Russia and Ukraine is horrible. But I think this country needs to eventually work with countries like Russia and China.
FRANK: You know, I think a lot of the younger generation, they have a different perspective of U.S. history of colonialization. They're further away from World War II and that narrative. They're skeptical of what the government is telling them to believe, especially when they're seeing an alternative in their social media feeds. But that's also where it can get kind of dangerous because you do have to have some sense of media literacy.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. Because it's one thing having a healthy skepticism of any media outlets, really, right, and any narrative that's being pushed. But on the other hand, what you have is people totally abandoning journalism. And getting their news from somebody like Jackson Hinkle.
HINKLE: If you or a loved one has ever been fooled by Western propaganda about Ukraine, I don't blame you.
GREENE: You don't post stuff that is so infuriatingly ill-informed. So many people in his comments, in his community, just take what he's saying as the truth.
O'SULLIVAN: Jackson is a Russian propaganda dream, right?
FRANK: Yes. Yes, whether he's doing it and he's on a payroll or not, they're getting a great bargain, right? I mean, if they guy was actually on the left, he would talk about the press in Russia and the crackdown on the free press. They would talk about these things, but they don't, right? And why is that? It raises some flags for me.
O'SULLIVAN: Hey, Jackson.
HINKLE: How's it going?
O'SULLIVAN: You're breaking up a little bit, but that's OK.
HINKLE: Good. Here in Moscow, Russia. Yes. I see that it is trying to reconnect the internet.
[20:55:03]
O'SULLIVAN: Now he's totally frozen.
(Voice-over): When I next spoke to Jackson, he was back in Russia. The Kremlin had organized to bring him to parts of Ukraine it had illegally invaded.
Are they brain washing you?
HINKLE: No. I think the only people who are being brainwashed are the people paid by the military industrial complex to spout certain views.
O'SULLIVAN: You haven't gone kind of full Tucker Carlson yet, though. You haven't gone to a supermarket and started sniffing bread?
TUCKER CARLSON, CONSERVATIVE HOST: Oh, no. Come on. And coming to a Russian grocery store, the heart of evil. It will radicalize you against our leaders. That's how I feel anyway. Radicalized.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Jackson denies taking money from the Russian government. You're a guest basically of the Russian Foreign Ministry, right?
HINKLE: There's multiple private and public individuals that I think are supporting my efforts to see the country and, you know, showing me the truth about Russia. I pay for my travels. I pay for my hotel expenses.
O'SULLIVAN: Every time I think maybe this guy is mature, you tweet something stupid. You did a poll. Poll. You are facing a death sentence before a judge but the judge is on her period. Are you OK with this? Like are you just a straight-up sexist? I just don't understand. What's the deal with this sort of stuff?
HINKLE: Well, of course, you know, you have to introduce comedy into the dark times.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Jackson and his followers have a warped view of women and of the world.
SERVICE: So I was dating all these women who are alarming as men who want power for themselves, who want money, who want to be like men, unlike a traditional woman, and they all failed. Game theory suggests that the problem is not me.
O'SULLIVAN: Plus in an election year like this, a lot of things get warped.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: In Springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in, they're eating the cats. They're eating -- they're eating the pets of the people that live there. And this is what's happening in our country.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My mom actually has seen a post on Facebook. There was Haitians in a white van driving around the neighborhoods collecting cat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Skinning them and eating them.
SEN. J.D. VANCE (R), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We've heard from a number of constituents on the ground, Kaitlan, who both firsthand and secondhand reports saying this stuff is happening.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: If someone calls your office and says they saw Bigfoot, that doesn't mean they saw Bigfoot.
O'SULLIVAN: But J.D. Vance has also been the target of ridiculous conspiracy theories.
STEPHEN COLBERT, LATE-NIGHT SHOW: Let me break it down. Yesterday multiple social media accounts spread fake claims that in his book, "Hillbilly Elegy," Vance describes having sex with a couch.
O'SULLIVAN: Sitting on hard couch here.
(LAUGHTER)
FRANK: Not my thing, but maybe it's J.D. Vance's. You know, it's funny. My mom was asking me about it and she asked if it was true.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): A lewd conspiracy theory about J.D. Vance and a couch doesn't quite undermine American democracy the same way as for years falsely claiming an election was stolen, but it does show how a conspiracy theory that might seem crazy or clearly a joke to some of us might not to someone else. Especially if it plays into their political biases.
It's about your mom who said Democrats --
FRANK: Anti-Trump, I would call her. Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: OK. But she was genuinely wondering, did that happen?
FRANK: Yes, did that happen? And that was after -- when Walz made the comment in his speech.
GOV. TIM WALZ (D), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I can't wait to debate the guy. That is, if he's willing to get off the couch and show up. So -- you see what I did there?
FRANK: But I also think that that's our day and age in politics, right? You have someone like Trump and Vance out there saying a million things every day. So the Democrats pushing back in a funny way. It's kind of like they asked for it. Right?
O'SULLIVAN: I spend a lot of my time talking to Trump supporters, trying to understand the rabbit holes people go down. On your stream, you have a bit of fun with it sometimes. I think you also refer sometimes to Trump supporters as hogs.
So you're not going to take the vaccine?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely not.
O'SULLIVAN: What if Trump came out and said, please, please take this vaccine?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I don't believe he'll take it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, well, he did it, idiot.
O'SULLIVAN: But you do -- you must feel some empathy at times? Some sympathy.
PIKER: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: Some people genuinely believe this stuff.
PIKER: I do ultimately still want to change the minds of people. I don't necessarily fault individuals for going down this rabbit hole because I understand that we're all in some ways victim to propaganda. We cannot escape propaganda. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rachel Maddow, she's broke my heart. Rachel, I
thought you'd tell me the story.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): More and more of us have people we love, our family, our friends falling down rabbit holes. Rabbit holes that stoke fear and promote hate. Rabbit holes that can transform people from who they used to be. And rabbit holes that can even take them into war zones at the other side of the world.
Do you -- are you being followed by like the Russian security services or for that matter, the CIA? I mean, surely the American government knows that you're there.
HINKLE: Well, I think if the CIA or the Russian intelligence is doing their job properly, I wouldn't know. And I don't know.
O'SULLIVAN: OK. Well, bring me back a fridge magnet or something, will you?
HINKLE: I've got to -- I've actually got a special gift for you. No, you'll like it. I promise.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
