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The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper
Misinformation, Extreme America. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired April 13, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:00]
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Look, we are in an interesting moment, to say the least, in this country and this show really looks at where we are right now.
JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: All right. Donie O'Sullivan, always good to see you. Thanks so much.
And be sure to tune in. It is an all-new episode of "THE WHOLE STORY WITH ANDERSON COOPER." It airs next only here on CNN.
In the meantime, thank you very much for joining me this evening. I'm Jessica Dean. We're going to see you right back here next weekend. Have a great night, everyone.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE WHOLE STORY. I'm Anderson Cooper.
Next week will mark 30 years since Timothy McVeigh bombed a federal building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people, including 19 children. McVeigh was partially inspired by the "Turner Diaries," a white supremacist novel that depicts an overthrow of the U.S. government and the worldwide extermination of Jews and all nonwhite people.
Back then, it was harder to find copies of the "Turner Diaries," but now, with just a click, its messages of hate and paranoia are accessible to anyone looking for it. These ideas are being pushed out to millions of Americans every day in different forms of social media.
Over the next hour, CNN's Donie O'Sullivan takes a look at how easy it is to consume and spread radical ideas in this modern era. From the January 6th attack to the glorification of an accused murderer, and how it's enabling a new kind of American extremism.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The January 6th insurrection has betrayed our country. Traitors. Traitors. Killers. Traitors. Ashli Babbitt was a domestic terrorist. Traitors.
IVAN RAIKLIN, MAGA ACTIVIST: There we go, with the Capitol in the background. Victory.
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: The General Flynn unmasking, impeachment hoax. 2020 election. So this is your -- this is your enemy list.
RAIKLIN: This is the deep state target list. Just a portion of it. Some of the high value targets, if you will.
O'SULLIVAN: Who's target number one?
RAIKLIN: I'd probably say Nancy Pelosi.
O'SULLIVAN: Right.
RAIKLIN: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Ivan Raiklin is a far-right extremist.
RAIKLIN: Yes. Just hit the deep state right in the heart.
O'SULLIVAN: So who do you think was ultimately responsible for the attack on the Capitol?
RAIKLIN: So I would say probably me. I'm the one.
REP. PETE AGUILAR (D-NY): President Trump retweeted a memo from an individual named Ivan Raiklin entitled "Operation Pence Card," that called on the vice president to refuse the electoral college votes from certain states that had certified Joe Biden as the winner.
RAIKLIN: So my legal strategy forced Nancy Pelosi to conduct a deliberate breach and facilitate the deliberate, incited entrapment of January 6th. That is why I'm responsible for exposing the Nancy Pelosi fed-surrection of January 6th.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): He promotes the conspiracy theory that January 6th was a setup.
RAIKLIN: Some people call it an entrapment, a fed-surrection, a parliamentary coup.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your shirt, it has a list of names of the retribution tour.
O'SULLIVAN: And he's got a retribution list.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Biden laptop cover-up. The COVID-19 plandemic.
O'SULLIVAN: For those he believes have wronged President Trump and the American people.
RAIKLIN: Jim Clapper. Right? Mike Hayden, Brian Kemp, Brad Raffensperger, the list goes on and on.
I prefer the term retribution.
Liz Cheney, we're coming for you. Adam Kinzinger, we're coming for you.
O'SULLIVAN: You mentioned Pelosi. What do you think she would be charged with in this scenario?
RAIKLIN: It's simple statute. This is treason.
O'SULLIVAN: Treason?
RAIKLIN: Yes, absolutely. And I would like to see at the end of the due process, lawful capital punishment.
O'SULLIVAN: Will you be disappointed if in 12 months from now, somebody hasn't been executed for treason?
RAIKLIN: I think the nation will be furious.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): He says even I could be a target.
RAIKLIN: I'm not sure yet if you are or are not on the deep state target list, because I haven't consumed all of the information that you've put forth to determine what your status should be.
O'SULLIVAN: Well, we've been hanging --
RAIKLIN: As we ruin you.
O'SULLIVAN: As you what?
RAIKLIN: Just like you ruined us. An eye for an eye. Look up Leviticus as a Christian man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a problem with Jewish supremacy. We have a problem with a Jewish occupation in our government.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Technology has transformed extremism in America.
NICK FUENTES, FAR-RIGHT EXTREMIST: It's your body, my choice.
O'SULLIVAN: A fire hose of hate. America is served to millions of us every day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are reviewing a purported manifesto.
O'SULLIVAN: Mass shooters publish manifestos online.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An absolute racist hate crime.
[20:05:01]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is God's country.
O'SULLIVAN: Election deniers stream live as they attack the U.S. Capitol.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are the revolution.
O'SULLIVAN: The fringe is going mainstream.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Trump is here to take down those Satanic cabals and pedophiles. You know this already.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With the cute military army.
O'SULLIVAN: Some believe we are on the brink of a totalitarian state.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who actually runs the government?
O'SULLIVAN: Some believe our government is totally controlled by corporations or a cabal, and some see themselves as crusaders in a fight for good versus evil.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's be the American people spreading the word of God.
O'SULLIVAN: So I've set out on a journey across the country to meet the Americans waging this battle.
This is basically the Mangione gun?
(Voice-over): To find out if we really are getting more extreme.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, he's got the right idea.
O'SULLIVAN: Or is the extreme just getting louder?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, get out of there.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're not finished yet. We got a long way to go, but we're doing this on the very first day in office. And in just a few moments, I'm not only signing the release of the J-6 hostages, I'm signing everything that you're going to love. Oh, you're going to be happy reading newspapers tomorrow and the next day and the next day. And the next day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Release those prisoners.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: D.C. gulag, let our people go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys can protest and say whatever you'd like from the comfort of the sidewalk and the park. Please do not try and come across the street.
O'SULLIVAN: It's inauguration night in Washington, D.C. and we're outside the D.C. jail where people have been gathering for almost three years to campaign for the release of January 6th convicts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And for the news, he wants to know, is it going to be the violent ones? It's going to be all of them, folks.
SHERRY HEFNER, CAMPAIGNING FOR JAN. 6TH CONVICTS: I have faith in my heart, brother, that all of you are going to be getting those calls from your attorney real soon.
O'SULLIVAN: Sherry Hefner is one of those campaigners. She takes calls nightly from imprisoned January Sixers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I can tell you guys is this. We are dressed. We have our bags packed. We are ready to go.
O'SULLIVAN: At the same time, I was receiving a call from inside the jail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello. This is a call from -- Rachel Powell. To Washington, D.C.. Central Detention Facility.
O'SULLIVAN: Rachel Powell is serving time for attacking the Capitol with a pickax on January 6th.
RACHEL POWELL, JANUARY 6TH PROTESTER: Hey, is this Donie?
O'SULLIVAN: This is Donie. How are you?
POWELL: I don't know. I don't know because I'm still in here, you know? But I was told that with him signing the pardons today, that I should be out tonight. But I'm still sitting in here, and so I'm nervous.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But not everyone here is excited for the prisoners' release.
Did you ever think we'd be in a place where just hours from now --
BRI CHAPMAN, PROTESTER: I did not think they would get out. Ever. No.
O'SULLIVAN: J-6 is going to walk out here free.
CHAPMAN: No. Absolutely not. No, I could not -- I would have told you, you're an idiot. That's never happening. But here we are.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Bri Chapman is one of the few signs of the resistance here in Washington on this inauguration night. She's been counter-protesting at Freedom Corner for years.
CHAPMAN: I would come down here with a megaphone. I got very personal. There's a lot of protesters for MAGA that would just, you know, say like (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Trump or generic stuff. But I have spent, I think, going on three years focusing on these people.
O'SULLIVAN: In 2022 she destroyed a memorial for Ashli Babbitt, who was killed by police on January 6th after entering the Capitol.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mama Micki, we love you, honey.
O'SULLIVAN: Ashli's mother, Micki, founded the nightly vigil outside the jail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where are you at, Micki?
O'SULLIVAN: Is the point to make their life hell?
CHAPMAN: It's not to make their life hell. They're making our life hell and they're dangerous individuals. Here it comes.
O'SULLIVAN: Who are these guys? CHAPMAN: This is Oreo Express. He was actually at the Capitol on
January 6th.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's the one that --
CHAPMAN: And this is his --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- threw the flowers away on the Capitol.
CHAPMAN: Ashli Babbitt. I actually stomped on -- anyway, this is --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trump is your president! Trump is your president! J-Sixers are being pardoned. J-Sixers are being pardoned. Yes. J- Sixers are free.
O'SULLIVAN: So are you OK with this?
CHAPMAN: I'm fine. Let them show themselves. That's not what --
O'SULLIVAN: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's a psychopath.
CHAPMAN: And here's Ashli Babbit's mom, Micki.
MICKI WITTHOEFT, ASHLI BABBITT'S MOTHER: They all know that, they've been here. Where have you been? You're late, bitch.
CHAPMAN: I know, I know. I've been here all day. I was in the bar with you. I was in the bar with you, Micki. You didn't even see me.
[20:10:01]
WITTHOEFT: Back off.
CHAPMAN: I saw you drinking.
WITTHOEFT: Back off.
CHAPMAN: I saw you drinking alcohol in the bar.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): The insults go back and forth and back and forth.
CHAPMAN: Talk about stalking. Talk about stalking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Move, move, move.
O'SULLIVAN: Before a police officer eventually intervenes.
CHAPMAN: Is it a trespass order? You know me, you know my name, Sergeant Jackson. For my own safety that's why we're doing this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just leave. Can you please, yes?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go take care of your kids. O'SULLIVAN: Despite Trump's orders, it's getting late, and there are
no signs of prisoners being released.
HEFNER: We need to get the marshals. The guards inside are threatening force against our men. And they are, they are messaging out, begging us for help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donie, I'm right behind you.
COOPER: Donie O'Sullivan who's outside the detention center where some people may be released. Donie?
O'SULLIVAN: Hey, Anderson. Yes, in the last few minutes, all these demonstrators all rushed towards the main door of the jail. We're not sure quite what is happening.
Some of the people inside this prison are hoping to make it to the inaugural balls tonight. They've been told that if they are released -- yes, OK. We're going to move down here, Anderson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Push the press back. Push the press back. Families right here. Everybody, back up. We're back where we were. The lights -- you're an hour and a half until this happens, guys. Back up, please. Set it up on the ground. Back up on the ground.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): The night went on, but the releases never came.
POWELL: I was told by inmates here that they'll let us out in the morning if they haven't done it tonight.
O'SULLIVAN: Is it sinking in now that you know you're going to be a free woman soon?
POWELL: OK, go back to when you were 6 years old and it's Christmas Eve, and you know, when you wake up in the morning, Santa will have left gifts for you. That's how I feel right now.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): The next morning, Christmas arrived.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Glory, hallelujah. Thank you, Lord.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We always said you're a true patriot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm so glad you're here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my goodness.
O'SULLIVAN: Across the country, January Sixers were set free. And not just people like Rachel, but leaders of extremist groups, Proud Boys, Three Percenters, Oath Keepers.
STEWART RHODES, OATH KEEPER LEADER: I feel vindicated and validated.
O'SULLIVAN: Many with no plans of going quietly into the night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've got the dream team. We're back.
JOSEPH BIGGS, FORMER PROUD BOYS LEADER, FLORIDA CHAPTER: The worst thing they did was put us in prison because I'm now friends with all the Gangster Disciples, the Blood, Crips, all those guys in prison. They love us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Big O is back. People say you're the guy that put your feet on Nancy Pelosi's desk. It's just not true. I put it on the people's desk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Amen.
RAIKLIN: I got a criminal news network photographer, maybe a reporter. I wanted to ask you, sir. Your buddy Donie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm working here.
RAIKLIN: Is he still in the E.R.?
O'SULLIVAN: And for at least one man.
RAIKLIN: You are now on my radar.
O'SULLIVAN: It was a sign that the retribution was about to commence.
RAIKLIN: I'm going to be scrutinizing you.
O'SULLIVAN: But at the same time.
PROTESTERS: Free, free Luigi.
O'SULLIVAN: It wasn't just those on the right celebrating violence.
PROTESTERS: Luigi! Luigi!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the people want Luigi free.
PROTESTERS: We the people want Luigi free.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I say free, you say Luigi. Free.
PROTESTERS: Luigi.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Free.
PROTESTERS: Luigi.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to feel like I'm not here because, you know, I'm like, so attracted to him or whatever. Like I'm here because of, like, the movement. I believe in health care for all. I believe we need a better health care system in America. That's why I'm here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This health care system is guilty of far more murder than whoever that shooter was. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who's the real terrorists?
O'SULLIVAN: Protesters gather outside a Manhattan courthouse where inside alleged killer Luigi Mangione has a court hearing.
What was it like seeing Luigi?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, like, we've all seen, like, tons of pictures of him. Like, I think you could just see his more human side when you're seeing him in person, for sure.
O'SULLIVAN: Nadine Seiler is a longtime progressive activist.
We've met before. I've seen you at protests in Washington, D.C. against Trump.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: Against January 6th, and all that sort of stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: Is accepting the violence that was committed against Brian Thompson?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: America is founded on violence.
O'SULLIVAN: But by --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: America was founded -- make America great again to when? They came and massacred the indigenous people. Millions and millions of indigenous people.
O'SULLIVAN: But by supporting the murder of a healthcare CEO, does that -- doesn't that make your side as culpable?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't hear them condemning the Proud Boys, who he says, stand by. Whatever it is. Once they start condemning them, then I will reassess. But until then, no, I'm not reassessing.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About a third of the building has been blown away.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): And while America's roots are soaked in bloodshed, violence in the country today is mostly from right-wing extremism. From Oklahoma City to Charlottesville to January 6th. There is simply no equivalent on the left. But when UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson was murdered, not everyone was outraged.
CHRIS ROCK, COMEDIAN: I mean this is a real person, you know? But you also got to go, you know, sometimes drug dealers get shot.
BILL BURR, COMEDIAN: What is more heartless than a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) CEO of a corporation? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He literally stood in the middle of Fifth Avenue
and shot someone in broad daylight and everybody loves him. And I think that is a beautiful thing.
O'SULLIVAN: Praise of the shooter was roundly condemned on mainstream news outlets.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don't have the right to go out and kill somebody and take, you know, vigilante justice into your hands.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's atrocious that somebody would think that it's OK to commit murder.
O'SULLIVAN: To say otherwise would open yourself to harsh criticism.
TAYLOR LORENZ, INDEPENDENT JOURNALIST: I do believe in the sanctity of life, and I think that's why I felt, along with so many other Americans, joy, unfortunately, you know, because it feels like --
PIERS MORGAN, CONSERVATIVE HOST: Joy? Seriously?
LORENZ: I mean --
MORGAN: Joy in the man's execution?
LORENZ: I guess I would say not, maybe not joy, but certainly not -- no, certainly not empathy.
What I said is that I felt joy in the fact that people like Piers Morgan and other privileged millionaires in this country are finally being forced to confront the gross inequalities in our barbaric healthcare system.
O'SULLIVAN: Taylor Lorenz is an independent journalist who spoke up for people who felt the murder had justification.
LORENZ: Thousands of Americans die because CEOs like this one and others deny essential life-saving care to Americans.
I think it's hilarious to see these millionaire media pundits on TV clutching their pearls about someone standing a murderer when this is the United States of America. As if we don't lionize criminals, as if we don't have, you know, we don't stand murderers of all sorts, and we give them Netflix shows.
[20:20:00]
There's a huge disconnect between the narratives and angles that mainstream media pushes and what the American public feels. And you see that in moments like this. And I can tell you, I saw the biggest audience growth that I've ever seen because people were like, oh, somebody, some journalist is actually speaking to the anger that we feel.
O'SULLIVAN: The women who got her outside court in New York. LORENZ: So you're going to see women, especially that feel like, oh,
my god, right. Like, here's this man who's a revolutionary, who's famous, who's handsome, who's young, who's smart. He's a person that seems this like this morally good man, which is hard to find.
(LAUGHTER)
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. I just realized women would literally date an assassin before they swipe right on me. That's where we're at.
I'm sure you wouldn't like to be compared to a Trump supporter, but some of how people cannot understand why people have sympathies for Mangione strikes me as the same as our media not understanding why people support Trump.
LORENZ: I totally agree.
O'SULLIVAN: It's because a lot of people are just really, really desperate.
LORENZ: They want somebody to take on the system. They want somebody to tear down these barbaric establishment institutions.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): The people taking on the system are not just using the internet to spread their message.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 3-D printed guns is a phenomena of like strange internet culture.
O'SULLIVAN: They're using it to create tools to act. Luigi Mangione was carrying a 3-D printed gun when he was arrested, the same gun prosecutors alleged he used to assassinate Brian Thompson. He's pleaded not guilty to charges brought in a state court.
I feel like we're in Martha Stewart's kitchen here. Like these in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three, two, one.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:27:05]
O'SULLIVAN: American Gun Control. Is this a premature burial?
CODY WILSON, DEFENSE DISTRIBUTED: No, no, certainly aren't. Certainly aren't. No, I think 3-D printed guns will always mean a certain death. A little death of gun control.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): This is Cody Wilson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome to the age of the printed magazine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cody Wilson at that Texas company using a 3-D printer to make a plastic gun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cody Wilson has built a Web site where people will be able to download plans for a handgun he dubs the Liberator.
O'SULLIVAN: He's the godfather of 3-D printed guns.
So this is your first time printing the Mangione gun?
WILSON: Yes, in our shop we wanted to do this because we knew you were coming by.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): We met at his factory in Austin, Texas, where he was building the same 3-D gun and suppressor allegedly used by Luigi Mangione.
So you could make the gun and the suppressor in a day basically?
WILSON: You're doing it all in less than 12 hours, it sounds like. I've seen crime scene photos where it looks like -- I've seen crime scene photos where it looks like.
O'SULLIVAN: I feel like we're in Martha Stewart's kitchen here. But --
WILSON: We've baked more gun parts in there.
O'SULLIVAN: Are you surprised he's become a hero, that Mangione has become a hero?
WILSON: No. Not really. There's a real lack of these types of young guys doing anything because his generation doesn't do jack shit from my point of view. You know, they just want to complain about the situation.
O'SULLIVAN: So we're going to shoot this into a bucket.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A bucket of sand.
O'SULLIVAN: Goodness. Put these in. Today in bad ideas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is our first workplace shooting of this year, isn't it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It I think so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three, two, one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suppressor explody. Look, I caught a part.
O'SULLIVAN: So what happened there? Explain to me what -- so the gun blew up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suppressor. What looks like, probably that suppressor wasn't completely center line. Right? And so the bullet tore through.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So a baffle strike on a printed suppressor is catastrophic.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Turns out printing a 3-D gun isn't as easy as it sounds.
Here's another cause for concern with Mangione. Do you think Mangione would have printed a perfectly cylindrical suppressor on the first try? You know? These things, they burrow, they lodge themselves in your mind.
(Voice-over): What Cody is doing here is about a lot more than guns.
He's got a library. Let's take a look.
(Voice-over): He is a collector of all kinds of extreme literature.
Oh, wow. You got a copy of the "Turner Diaries" around here?
WILSON: You know I got a copy of the "Turner Diaries." Did you even have to ask?
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): He's part of an American tradition of deep suspicion and deep distrust of government.
WILSON: For me, this is a positive vision. There's more to hope for in a world where you know you can download a gun. Everybody knows you can download a gun.
O'SULLIVAN: Families who've lost kids in school shootings, who are generally in favor of broader gun control, will look at you and say, oh, my god, here's yet another way of flooding America with more guns and making the place more dangerous.
WILSON: And I'm sorry. Good that they see it that way, because they've been elevated in our national melodrama, as you know, given some kind of political authority for what? The very reason of their victimization? You know, this to me is the illegitimacy. You know, what's legitimate in this process is the fact that, oops, sorry, it's been legal the whole time, and now you need to find a constitutional way to make it illegal.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): For personal liberty absolutists like Cody, the threat of a tyrannical government is ever present.
April is actually the 30-year anniversary of Oklahoma City bombing, Timothy McVeigh.
WILSON: What a gift to me you have given.
O'SULLIVAN: Tell me why.
WILSON: Well, I just -- I think McVeigh, as you know, was executing or affecting revenge for Waco.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Timothy McVeigh was a domestic terrorist who killed 168 people. But his actions are still semi-justifiable to some because he claimed he was seeking revenge for the 1993 standoff in Waco, Texas.
WILSON: So for you to put me, at least in a symbolic line of responses to that event is quite a gift that you have given me, and I thank you very much.
O'SULLIVAN: More than 80 people were killed when federal agents sought to execute search and arrest warrants at a compound belonging to a religious cult called the Branch Davidians.
WILSON: Waco represented in the American public consciousness a definitive break, a moment where they knew that the state was more powerful than it should be, more powerful than they had allowed it to become. And so in American gun culture specifically, not just militia culture, there's an understanding that if you take it upon yourself to live, and teach, and arm yourself and try to separate from the traditional American community it's been legitimized for them to murder you.
So I see Waco as like an important American moment which signaled the relative power of the individual versus the state and not in the individual's favor.
O'SULLIVAN: It's events like Waco that for people like Cody underline the need for 3-D printed guns and justify an unshakable suspicion of government.
So you kind of bought into the idea that Mangione was a kind of false flag set up type thing?
WILSON: You can't help but when you're just getting those early reports.
O'SULLIVAN: Right.
WILSON: You can't help but think, well, what's the connection to American political life? What does the deep state want?
O'SULLIVAN: What do you still believe any of that?
WILSON: What is it they're trying to get? The more I see it, the more it's like you got to hold two beliefs at the same time. This guy looks totally cracked to me. Just looks like totally nuts. And then at the same time, it has these elements of polish and choreography which are just difficult to dismiss.
O'SULLIVAN: People watching this would be like that's (EXPLETIVE DELETED) crazy.
WILSON: Yes, but, come on, conspiracies are part of American life.
O'SULLIVAN: Of course. I know all about it. Keeps me employed.
(Voice-over): Cody publishing online his plans for 3-D guns and his battles with the courts over censorship are the modern-day equivalent of the anarchist cookbook. A now banned 1970s guidebook on how to make homemade explosives that was linked to numerous attacks. WILSON: You know, as I understand, that guy ultimately regretted what
he did, and he founded a kind of youthful indiscretion or something. That's not what's happening here. Although I still respect what the anarchist cookbook is, and the fact that it had to be defended against repeated attempts at censorship, even to this day, you know.
O'SULLIVAN: No one wants to be censored and access to information that was once considered too dangerous or too taboo is more accessible than ever.
JAKE SHIELDS, PODCASTER: You know, I name the podcast "Fighting Back." I feel like we have to fight back what we're told we're allowed to do.
Lock the cage, lock the cage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jake Shields has been in this game a long time.
O'SULLIVAN: We went to meet someone who is introducing his audience to some of the most extreme voices in America.
[20:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:40:03]
O'SULLIVAN: I came to Las Vegas to meet Jake Shields.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jake Shields has been in this game a long time. He's been at the top of the ladder.
O'SULLIVAN: A former UFC star.
SHIELDS: Hey, guys. Jake Shields here.
O'SULLIVAN: Turned podcaster.
SHIELDS: Social media influencer.
But I'll have you hit the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) gloves.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. Yes.
SHIELDS: I swear I won't (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you up. CNN.
O'SULLIVAN: You could get an easy win here, man, if you just (EXPLETIVE DELETED) knocked me out.
SHIELDS: My fans would love it if I knocked you out. But I can't do it.
O'SULLIVAN: All right. Now I'm starting to feel nervous. Like all great MMA pros. I've never hit anyone in my life.
SHIELDS: I'm not punching back. Hit me, hit me. Hit me as hard as you can. O'SULLIVAN: Right there?
SHIELDS: Yes. Both hands. Hit me as hard as you can. Try to actually hit me. You're not going to hurt me. I'm a pro.
O'SULLIVAN: All right. You got enough. Do you miss being full-time pro?
SHIELDS: Oh, yes. You know, of course I miss it. Bam. It's a hard transition to go from professional athlete, which is the highest of highs, to retirement. The podcast has helped. You could fall into depression if you just go from the most amazing career where you're famous and spotlights to all of a sudden you're a nobody.
What's up, guys? I'm here with the notorious Nick Fuentes, Tommy Sotomayor, Enrique Tarrio.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Jake's podcast has picked up tens and sometimes hundreds of thousands of listeners.
SHIELDS: Hey, Jake Shields here, about to hit a podcast with General Flynn. Thank you so much.
MIKE FLYNN, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I'm honored to be here on your show.
SHIELDS: Thank you.
O'SULLIVAN: Part of the appeal of podcasters like Jake is that they have long form, unfiltered conversations with controversial or canceled people who've been shunned by what they call the mainstream.
SHIELDS: I just don't like being told you're not allowed to talk to this person. Like, why can't I talk to him? I'm not saying I agree with his ideology, but I should hear what he has to say.
Today I have a very, very special guest, Dr. David Duke.
I hear you're controversial, but I don't know how controversial.
DAVID DUKE, FORMER GRAND WIZARD OF THE KNIGHTS OF THE KU KLUX KLAN: Sometimes I think I have to add a different title in my birth certificate because every time they mention me, it's KKK.
SHIELDS: I really enjoy talking to what are considered extremists because you realize you sit down and talk to these people, a lot of times they're not near as extreme as you thought, and you have a lot more in common with them than you realize.
Let's go where we disagree a little bit. Let's hit race because you're a white only group.
O'SULLIVAN: Among Jake's guests is Thomas Russo, the leader of a group known as Patriot Front.
THOMAS RUSSO, PATRIOT FRONT LEADER: So the organization only allows people of American ethnicity. And all Americans, I believe, come from Europe. So they're white.
SHIELDS: Even the white nationalists are so much more reasonable than I thought. They weren't like, oh, we need to round up these blacks and get them out of here.
RUSSO: Americans, white folks changing fast, are on the verge of being a minority.
SHIELDS: And there's a lot of hate push being pushed on us.
RUSSO: Exactly. Just being of and who we are, it's seen as being something which is despicable.
O'SULLIVAN: People will hear the Patriot Front guy say, well, you know, America is a country of white people. To a lot of people, that is hate. That sounds hateful.
SHIELDS: Yes. Good question. I think because I ask him like, well, what are you going to do with these minorities? And he's not saying like round them up and ship them off. So he's just saying, like he'd prefer to live in more white areas. He's being very realistic with it. Created his white organizations. And again, like I let him know I don't agree with them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nazis out of Boston, Nazis out of Boston.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But Patriot Front is a hate group. In fact, it's one of the most active white supremacist groups in the country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've been all over the world fighting for your little ass.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where are you fighting?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I fought in Afghanistan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn't fight for this country. You fought for Afghanistan.
CHARLES MORRELL, MUSICIAN: For me, it was the drums. My first thought was around like a marching band. So as I was walking, I remember just thinking like, huh, what's happening here? The only thing in my mind, not their masks, not their shields. How am I going to stay on the sidewalk? How am I going to just keep walking straight?
O'SULLIVAN: The Patriot Front attacked musician Charles Morrell in Boston in 2022.
MORRELL: Once I realized that I was in the street and that I could get ran over by a car, that I was going to have to defend myself and make sure that my space on the sidewalk is guaranteed.
[20:45:01]
O'SULLIVAN: Morrell sued Patriot Front winning a $2.7 million judgment. MORRELL: When the shields touched my skin, though, that initial touch
triggered just in a blink of an eye all of this ancestral information that's held within my body. And I immediately knew I wasn't safe.
I think the uniform is so plain or so casual that it doesn't stand out. It's not like white men wearing robes and hoods.
O'SULLIVAN: Charles's point was powerful. Patriot Front might not have the elaborate uniform of robes and hoods of David Duke's generation of Klansmen, but they represent the same kind of hate.
SHIELDS: I had all these, like, tough questions for you. I'm going to throw some at you. We've been hanging out all day, so it's now we've kind of became friends. So it's a little harder to be a dick to you because I like, like you.
O'SULLIVAN: The mainstream media.
SHIELDS: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: Is declining?
SHIELDS: No. Exactly.
O'SULLIVAN: And guys like you are rising, right?
SHIELDS: Yes. You know, I teased you a lot about being seen and coming in. It was half jokes, but half-truth because you guys are on the decline. Because I think you've lost the trust. So I think it's you seem to be pretty honest and stuff. So maybe you can help bring the trust back of CNN. When you first contacted CNN, I'm just like, I don't think so. I need to record. I don't trust you guys.
O'SULLIVAN: You know, with that point, I'm not here to lecture you about your job and journalism, but for how journalists would go about the interviews you're doing, right? So in terms of you having conversations with David Duke or Patriot Front or whoever, do you feel a responsibility when you have them on your show to, you know, push back, to challenge, to fact check them?
SHIELDS: Because we're having an honest conversation right now, that's people want to do. They don't want these like, gotcha questions. It's just not fun. But I could push back a little more. I could research a little more. And that's something I'm working on doing.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): I appreciated Jake's willingness to talk to me and his openness to considering the responsibility that comes with having a platform as big as he has.
SHIELDS: What are your controversial opinions there?
O'SULLIVAN: His show might at times seem extreme, but he is finding an audience. It reminded me of something Taylor Lorenz had told me.
So I think a lot of people probably have a problem with me putting in one show Timothy McVeigh, the people who attacked the Capitol, the Proud Boys and Luigi Mangione.
LORENZ: I think there's a through line through all of it, though. It's wanting to take down the system. It is sort of people that are tired of being exploited, that feel taken advantage of, that feel tricked, that feel like they were sold a lie.
When I talked to Proud Boys, extremist people too, and a lot of these people, I think, could be radicalized the other way on to the left.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): New technology and new information environment and a new kind of politics is radicalizing us.
STEVE BANNON, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Pray for our enemies. Because we're going medieval on these people.
O'SULLIVAN: And nowhere was that more clear.
BANNON: We're live at CPAC.
O'SULLIVAN: Than back in Washington at CPAC, the country's biggest conservative political conference.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're at CPAC. I'm going to roll with you for a minute.
O'SULLIVAN: Where January Sixers now free men received a hero's welcome.
And how was your welcome here been at CPAC?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're like Gods.
O'SULLIVAN: And I received a welcome of my own from Ivan Raiklin.
How's retribution going?
RAIKLIN: So what's your name, sir?
O'SULLIVAN: Donie O'Sullivan.
RAIKLIN: Why don't you say Donie? Do you have that much TDS that you don't want to pronounce it as Donie?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:53:39]
O'SULLIVAN: One month into Trump's second presidency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Living is easy with eyes closed. Oh, so now you guys are aggressive. Where were you January 6th?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whose house?
PROTESTERS: Our house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whose house?
O'SULLIVAN: Enrique Tarrio from the Proud Boys has returned to Washington, D.C.
ENRIQUE TARRIO, PROUD BOYS LEADER: We will not stand idly while our brothers and sisters are crushed under the weight of tyranny.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dude. I'd like to --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on. I know you threw the phone out. Come here, come here, come here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I absolutely want to press charges. And I have it all on camera. How's it feel getting arrested again?
O'SULLIVAN: Tarrio is arrested but not charged for this altercation with a counter-protester.
RAIKLIN: You want to say hi to Enrique? Hey, Mike, can I invite you to lunch? Can I invite you to lunch? Ivan Raiklin.
O'SULLIVAN: Later, he and Ivan Raiklin follow January 6th police officers who have spoken out against the rioters.
TARRIO: Yes. Keep walking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You guys are traitors. Please back off.
TARRIO: You guys were brave at my sentencing. Now you don't even want to look in my eyes.
MICHAEL FANONE, FORMER CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER: You're a traitor to this country. You're a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) traitor to this country.
O'SULLIVAN: They're all in town during CPAC, the biggest conservative political conference in the country.
BANNON: February 2025. We're live at CPAC. Dave Brats, my wingman.
O'SULLIVAN: We met Oath Keeper founder Stewart Rhodes as he was making his way into the conference. He'd been serving an 18-year sentence for charges including seditious conspiracy.
RHODES: We'll have to fight a bloody civil war or a bloody revolution to take our country back.
O'SULLIVAN: For four years, Rhodes had been the face of anti- government extremism to many on the left. He'd even been quoted as saying that they should have brought rifles to the Capitol on January 6th. But now a new day was upon us where he and others wandered the same CPAC halls as JD Vance and President Trump.
What happens with the Oath Keepers?
RHODES: I'm not sure about that. It's a good question. I really don't know. O'SULLIVAN: You're still a member, obviously.
RHODES: Well, I'm the founder of the Oath Keepers.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
RHODES: So I don't know what I want to do with that organization.
O'SULLIVAN: The characterization of the Oath Keepers by the federal government is it's an extremist group.
RHODES: It's ridiculous.
O'SULLIVAN: A hate group.
RHODES: It's ridiculous. Who do I hate?
O'SULLIVAN: Well, I want to ask you, how would you characterize the Oath Keepers?
RHODES: Well, we are what we said we are. We're military veterans, police officers, first responders who swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. And we're all about keeping that up. What's your documentary about, Oklahoma City or is it about Waco?
O'SULLIVAN: Well, it's about extremism in America.
RHODES: OK. So stop talking to me.
O'SULLIVAN: You don't want to talk about it?
RHODES: No. If you want to characterize me as an extremist, I'm done talking to you.
O'SULLIVAN: You're sick of people calling you an extremist?
RHODES: Yes. It's ridiculous. It's a smear. How would you like it if I called you a pedophile?
O'SULLIVAN: But it would be false.
RHODES: You use that label. You're extremist in America. So you put us all in this big, the basket of deplorables, right? We're all extremists. So when your audience on the left and CNN says, oh, it's a documentary about extremist, automatically they discount anything that those people say. So, you know, there's no goodwill there.
BANNON: Ivan, would you volunteer to work on that task force?
RAIKLIN: I would be happy to volunteer as a participant to lead it. I could care less about any title. I just want to get to the truth. And you know what? Although a lot of people call it accountability, you know, because my last name starts with the R, you know my favorite word, Steve. And unfortunately, not too many people like it, but it's right here. It's right underneath my suit and tie. And it starts with the letter R. Retribution, baby. You had 10, was it live primetime manipulative hearings led by -- who
was it? Nancy Pelosi's January 6th fed-surrection cover-up committee.
O'SULLIVAN: You mentioned last time that Nancy Pelosi would be top of the list. I mean, you think Nancy Pelosi committed treason?
RAIKLIN: Let me ask the people around here. Who thinks Nancy Pelosi committed treason?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And her nephew Newsom.
RAIKLIN: There's a growing number of folks that want maximum punishment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maximum.
RAIKLIN: Maximum punishment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maximum.
RAIKLIN: And the maximum punishment that we have in our legal, constitutional framework that we all abide by.
O'SULLIVAN: Maximum is execution, right?
RAIKLIN: Maximum is capital punishment. OK. And so you never responded to me. Where are your loyalties? Are they to Ireland? Are they to the United States of America or are they to the criminal news network? Are you nominating yourself to be on the deep state target list?
O'SULLIVAN: Do you think I should be?
RAIKLIN: Well, you're not answering any questions that will automatically make me not even want to investigate you.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
RAIKLIN: Should I be investigating you?
O'SULLIVAN: Who do you think you should be investigating?
RAIKLIN: I'm waiting.
O'SULLIVAN: All right. Well, thanks for your time, Ivan. We appreciate you. Yes. We're done.
(Voice-over): I'd heard many times on my journey that America has always been a place where the extreme is inherent.
LORENZ: I don't think that most people are inherent pacifists. I think most people feel like violence is justified in certain instances.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Martin Luther King Jr.. Gandhi, pacifist kinds of people. I'm pretty sure they were all killed.
O'SULLIVAN: And yet we do seem to be in a special kind of moment in this country.
CHAPMAN: We've come to a point where the Constitution doesn't matter. The laws don't matter. The court doesn't matter.
ALEX JONES, CONSPIRACY THEORIST: They're finding all of these fake voters. Illegals are voting.
O'SULLIVAN: Where the gatekeepers of information are no more.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People with a limp, and somebody who's got a lazy eye.
O'SULLIVAN: Where rioters' records are wiped clear. Where hate is no longer dressed up.
RUSSO: Have we been smitten from the earth? No.
O'SULLIVAN: And where extremism has a pretty face.
JIMMY FALLON, LATE-NIGHT HOST: We definitely know who wins "TIME's" sexiest alleged murderer of the year.
O'SULLIVAN: To a point where even the most extreme among us can't or won't acknowledge how extreme they've become.
BIGGS: You embrace what they call you. When I was in prison, I got terrorist tattooed right here on my chest. You know what? Screw it. You want to call me that? That's OK with me. It doesn't bother me.
WILSON: Extremism is its own kind of thing now. Like hang around long enough. Ten years of extremism. You find yourself the conservative of your own movement.
