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What We Know with Max Foster

Black Smoke Billows From Sistine Chapel Chimney, No Pope Yet; India Strikes Pakistan In Wake Of Kashmir Massacre; U.S. Plans To Transport Undocumented Immigrants To Libya; First Disney Resort In 15 Years Coming To Abu Dhabi. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired May 07, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:24]

MAX FOSTER, CNN HOST: It's just hit 9:00 in Vatican City, where 133 cardinals are voting to choose the next pope in that building.

This is WHAT WE KNOW.

The cardinals have been locked in the Sistine Chapel for a few hours, and we haven't seen any smoke emerge from that chimney yet. A reminder, if the

smoke is white, a new pope has been elected, but that's extremely rare on the first ballot. If it's black, the cardinals will return tomorrow for

another round of voting.

We're going to go to David Culver, who is in Rome, because, David, when are you expecting smoke by? I don't know, a couple of hours ago. Theres been

some sort of delay.

DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Max, yeah, there has been. Okay, now we're seeing the black smoke right now, and you're hearing

the crowd. This is just happening. The screens went out, but now you can see everyone has their cell phones up. They're looking in that direction.

And the black smoke is coming out. So there has not been a pope elected tonight here after this first day of the conclave. But you can see the

crowd has been waiting several hours.

FOSTER: We can see it. It's black smoke. We always have to wait a moment, because if the chemicals didn't work properly, the white comes after. But

that's very clearly black smoke.

Let's go to Erin and her team in Rome.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: No pope, heavy with the coal. No pope. They -- I don't know if they thought -- nobody here thought that they were really

going to get a pope. But this is incredibly delayed.

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah.

BURNETT: It's certainly compared to last time and compared to any expectation. We're over an hour outside the window of what we had

anticipated a vote, so much so people were wondering if they even did vote.

LAMB: Yes.

BURNETT: But this is black smoke. There is no pope.

LAMB: Yes, that's right. It's clearly black smoke. This is what was expected tonight. There was only, we understand, one round of voting. Of

course, there are 133 cardinals in there, which is more than there was in 2013. It will therefore take them longer to do their balloting and voting.

And of course, they also had a meditation before voting from a cardinal who is known to preach for quite a long time.

BURNETT: Verbose, shall we say.

LAMB: Possibly, but maybe he wanted --

BURNETT: Eloquent.

LAMB: Well, he likes to go on quite a long time, and so that may also have delayed the vote.

BURNETT: Yes. Although -- and now, you can immediately see this crowd moving, everybody had waited. The numbers that we had just had, Brianna and

Erica, were that there were 30,000 people. This is from Rome police, 30,000 people in this square. And they waited and they waited, and their phones

were ready. There'd be a little clap that would occasionally go up. The phones would go up to see if they could film the -- the smoke. And now,

everyone in a very orderly way, going home.

The last time there was a conclave, though, this came an hour and 20 minutes earlier. There are 20 more cardinals this time than last. So as

you're pointing out, we don't -- you have -- we have no idea what to read into this. It could have been a long meditation. It could have been that

combined with more cardinals, it could be more debate. But we just don't know.

LAMB: Well, I think it also takes them a while to get up and running. They have to get used to voting. You know, there's obviously sometimes there can

be procedural things that go wrong. Someone could put in a blank ballot, which would mean they'd have to do it all over again.

So, there are things that could mean that there are delays. I imagine that once they get into the swing of things, they'll start to -- to speed up a

bit with the process.

BURNETT: Yeah, with -- with the votes. And we -- there will be votes tomorrow morning, two of them. Then there will be two more votes in the

afternoon. Of course, on the first vote tomorrow, if there is no pope, we won't know if the votes happened. We'll only know when we see the smoke

that the second vote that has occurred --

LAMB: That's right.

BURNETT: Unless there is a pope on the first.

So, here's what we know. We know they voted. We know they didn't have a two thirds majority. We have no idea how many people are truly top contenders.

They know that right now things have changed. Things have changed in the open now because they know the number of votes for each person.

And that dramatically can shift things, right? But we are in the dark. They are not.

LAMB: That's right. But I think we know from previous conclaves and the reporting on them that's emerged over the years that the first vote is

crucial because it's the moment that people put their cards on the table, you know, will the frontrunners have as many as people expected? Will there

be an outsider candidate who suddenly got support? Will they be surprise candidate who suddenly got maybe not a lot of votes, but a number of votes?

And that can suddenly shift the thinking.

BURNETT: Yes. Suddenly someone says, oh wow, that person.

David Culver, we've been watching you from where we sit.

[15:05:04]

I don't know if you saw us, but we saw you amongst the crowd, which is now 30,000 strong and in an orderly way, getting ready to leave, and I presume

many of them come back tomorrow morning.

CULVER: And, Erin, you had that big sigh of disappointment all at once. I don't know if you caught that, but they have the big monitors. And what

happened just before black smoke is all the monitors went out. And so, folks seem disappointed that perhaps there wasn't going to be a voting

result through the smoke that they were expecting, and then suddenly they came back on and we saw the black smoke.

In the lead up to that, and you can see as were looking around here, all these people are now getting off St. Peter's Square. But we had people

coming up to us asking, hey, do you know what's going to happen? This is pushing rather late. Any idea what's going on?

Obviously, we have no connection with what's going on in there. They're totally sealed off. They have no (AUDIO GAP) really what's happening out

here.

But what we're now seeing is people who are leaving, looking at us, saying with a smile, some locals, it's okay, we expected this. We'll be back here

tomorrow. And it seems to be the process.

It's interesting to see folks who are visitors, and there have been a few who have said that they're only here for a select period of time, that

maybe they have a cruise. One couple told us that they were going on to, and so they were hoping that maybe today it would coincide with the time

that they're here.

And a different sentiment from locals who obviously will go back to work tomorrow and will make their way here around the same time once again, just

to see if perhaps there will be a result. But you do have still this uplifting atmosphere.

The other thing I'm going to point out, though, interesting to me, to just to see large crowds like this, is the incredible police presence. I mean,

security here and there have been a lot of undercover police as well, who have just been making their way through the crowds. And you'll notice

they'll have badges on. But there were under their jackets, there is a very intense security presence. They're not checking bags or anything like that,

but they are certainly vigilant. And they've been walking through.

And even today, at one moment, the Italian police, the Roman police here in the city stopped and looked up were taking pictures of themselves wanting

to take in what was a non-vote, or rather a non-win for this first day of the conclave. But still it's meaningful for them. It gives you a sense of

just how many folks in this area are impacted by this.

BURNETT: Yeah. It is truly amazing. And to see the St. Peter's Basilica lit up, you see the darkness. Although when you actually see the chimney

above the Sistine Chapel, it is almost a, you know, a sepulchral sort of a light that that backlit light where we could so clearly tell that the smoke

was, was black, Father Beck, and later than -- than we thought this would be certainly from the past and from the expectation of the smoke windows,

probably later than many of the cardinals thought that they would be in that room.

They now have to go to Casa Santa Marta. They have to have dinner, Father Beck. They have to, I'm sure, there'll be conversations then. And then they

are up early in the morning and back in to vote again.

REV. EDWARD BECK, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: That's right, and it's kind of not surprising that it took a little bit longer. I mean, there are 20-something

more cardinals than last time. Remember, there's 133 of them.

They also, I think, might want to dispense with picking scrutineers for each election. I mean, the same people who are scrutineers are not

scrutineers tomorrow and they draw lots again of who's chosen for the six scrutineers. So, there's probably ways that they could expedite it if they

felt it went long.

But now, they'll go back, as you said, and have dinner and there will be some informal conversations based on what they just did. Now remember, this

first vote is usually very scattered and the cardinals disguise their handwriting. They're actually told to disguise their handwriting, and they

say it so that its secretive.

But also the truth is that some of them vote for themselves the first time, even though they claim they never would. But I have heard from good sources

that a few vote for themselves the first time. But you get the lay of the land. You see where people are going, where they're not.

Now maybe the person who got the most votes tonight, tomorrow may do better and then it could expedite it. But it was really scattered and there was no

clear majority or not majority, but at least you know more votes. Then we could be in for a longer conclave. Remember the complex nature of these

cardinals is very different from before.

BURNETT: Yeah. And it is amazing as -- as you point out, things like picking the scrutineers, the people who are going to actually count the

votes, and then the people who will recount the votes to check the count. The fact that something like that is done every day, I suppose well see if

that is something that ends up changing. But the disguising of the handwriting and voting for themselves.

[15:10:00]

And of course, we don't know and probably will never know this vote. Maybe the "Conclave" movie is the closest so many of us will get to ever being

inside of that room.

All right, I want to bring Kurt Martens into the conversation now, a professor at the School of Canon Law at the Catholic University of America.

And, Professor, what's your reaction to this? Again, we were waiting. The crowd here was waiting. There was I don't want to use the word impatience

because there was not frustration, but there was eager anticipation that had been denied. And they wanted a vote. And it was significantly later

than had been anticipated.

What do you read into that?

DR. KURT MARTENS, PROFESSOR, SCHOOL OF CANON LAW AT THE CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY OF AMERICA: Nothing, actually. It was very funny, my one of my colleagues

was texting me and said maybe they picked someone from outside the conclave and they have to smuggle him in. So, I said no, because actually I was

expecting it to be a little bit later, not only because of father or Cardinal Cantalamessa, who has a tendency to preach long, but also the

taking the oath took forever as they entered into conclave, much longer than last time around.

And then they have to each of them has to move forward to the altar, come forward to the altar to cast their ballot. If you have 135 middle aged men

or older than that, come forward. It's not like you have 20-year-olds running up to the altar, so that takes time.

Then they have to indeed pick the scrutineers. Then count. They have also to pick the revisers to make sure that the scrutineers did their job, et

cetera. So it's a lengthy process, and you have to do that with 135 ballots.

I'm actually expecting if the news is correct, that one of the cardinals is too ill to come every day to the Sistine Chapel, and he stays at Santa

Marta, you will have to have three cardinals there called infirmary to go to Santa Marta from the Sistine Chapel to have him cast his vote. Pick that

up, bring it back to the chapel, have it mixed with the ballots that are collected in the chapel, and then count it.

So, be patient, and extend your airtime a little longer. BURNETT : Yes, yes. And you know, the crowd waiting, as we said, about

30,000 strong who were waiting for that and now are dispersing, likely to come back tomorrow.

As Father Beck said, it is often he sees the first round, as, you know, very scattered. You really. But you get the lay of the land of who are

frontrunners. How many are under consideration? Is there someone who is quite surprising to everyone, even in the room that got more votes than --

than anyone would expect, even if that wasn't a lot of votes?

As you see it, how many sort of frontrunners do you think they could be looking at coming out of tonight?

MARTENS: That's hard to predict. We're not in the room, but actually, today is the first moment of truth because there have been talking. There

were some rumors, cardinal so-and-so has secured 40 votes, 50 votes. It's like with opinion polls prior to an election, the only election that

matters is when someone casts a vote.

And so today was the -- what I would call an indicative vote. You see where the cards are on the table, and then it's going to be interesting to see,

first of all, what they do during the conversations. Is there someone who we weren't talking about who of the frontrunners has picked up a lot of

votes, and then tomorrow, what's going to be very crucial for those who have a lot of votes?

Are they able not only to keep their votes, but also to increase? If there -- if that stalls, at some point, the votes are going to shift to another

candidate, because if someone is not able in a few rounds to go up and get closer to the two-thirds majority, that means he's not able to get it. And

so, they're going to switch to someone else.

BURNETT: And truly amazing that all this happens in in ways that that we will never truly know.

Professor Martins, really appreciate your time. And thank you.

And our breaking news continues an hour later than had been expected. An hour and a half, almost after it happened last time around. We have our

first vote here at the Vatican. Black smoke. The cardinals have voted in their first vote for the 267th pope. And tonight, there is no pope.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:17:33]

FOSTER: Recapping our breaking news, the results of the first ballot are in and the conclave has not elected a new pope yet.

Black smoke, as if I needed to tell you, rising above the Sistine Chapel, no cardinal received more than two thirds of the vote. That means -- and

that means the world will have to wait a bit longer before we know who will be the next leader of the Catholic Church, 133 voting cardinals were locked

inside the Sistine Chapel earlier.

Keep in mind, it's rare for pontiff to be chosen on the first ballot because, you know, it's all about finding out who the frontrunners are

likely to be, who's got support, and we have a sense of that tonight. But we'll continue to monitor that chimney tomorrow.

Our other breaking news tonight, the death toll across Pakistan and Pakistan administered Kashmir has risen to 31 after military strikes

launched by India overnight. That's according to the Pakistani military, which says 57 more people were injured.

Now, a Pakistani military spokesman says that happened after India fired at the so-called line of control. That's the de facto border in the disputed

Kashmir region that you can see there. Pakistan's defense minister says the country is trying to avoid, in his words, full-fledged war. But he told CNN

that India's actions had crossed a line.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KHAWAJA MUHAMMAD ASIF, PAKISTANI DEFENSE MINISTER: There is a possibility of this. Conflict expansion of this conflict into -- into a full-fledged

war which we are trying to avoid. But last night, they crossed the international boundary crossing the international boundary. This is the

clear cut violation and invitation to expand the conflict, you know, and maybe, you know, convert it into something much more wider and much more

dangerous for the region.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Meanwhile, India's foreign secretary insists the strikes were essential to bring justice to those deemed responsible for the terror

attacks in disputed Kashmir last month. He claimed that further attacks from within Pakistan were imminent.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VIKRAM MISRI, INDIAN FOREIGN SECRETARY: Our intelligence monitoring of Pakistan-based terrorist modules indicated that further attacks against

India were impending. The Security Council on 25th of April 2025 had issued a press statement on the Pahalgam terror attack, underlining, and I quote,

the need to hold perpetrators, organizers, financiers and sponsors of this reprehensible act of terrorism accountable and bring them to justice,

unquote.

[15:20:19]

India's latest actions should be seen in this context.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Mohammad Faisal is the Pakistani high commissioner to the United Kingdom.

We really appreciate you joining us today. Thank you very much indeed.

So much concern around the world about how this conflict, if I can call it that, is going to escalate. And all eyes on Pakistan in how you're going to

retaliate. Can you give us a sense of the strength of any retaliation when it comes?

MOHAMMAD FAISAL, PAKISTANI HIGH COMMISSIONER TO THE U.K.: The situation is tense and the Indian attacks of this morning in the middle of night, they

attacked. And that has led to, as you said, more than 56 or 57 injured. The latest figure of civilian deaths is 37, which includes children, very young

children.

Actually, one of the close relatives of one of my colleagues from foreign service has lost his life. Young boy. Irtaza. It is a very, very serious

situation because if you know, for any country to -- to lose civilians like this and they for civilians to embrace shahadat from an attack which is

coming from across the border is, is becomes a huge challenge. Pakistan has been against war and Pakistan has been insisting that lets have an

independent inquiry into the events of Pahalgam, 22nd of last month and Pakistan is ready to join.

Once the facts are ascertained. Of course, in a terror incident, anyone involved should be tried and punished. But if any country decides to become

judge, jury and executioner and tries to, you know, execute all actions on its own that cannot be accepted, this is not acceptable.

So, of course all options are on the table. And the national security committee of Pakistan, it is the highest decision-making body on this peace

and security issues in Pakistan. It met this morning under the prime minister. And, of course, it has -- it has instructed the military

commanders to act as they deem necessary. Let's see how things progress from here.

FOSTER: I'm very sorry to hear about your personal loss. And the conflict is so hard for everyone, isn't it? Quite worrying to hear you say all

options are on the table. These are very highly militarized nations. This is why there's so much concern.

You know, it could escalate very quickly. And you have very powerful weaponry, as does the other side. And you'll know that India will be

looking at the level of your response. And if they feel it's commensurate, they might not respond.

So how do you judge that? How do you -- I know you've talked about not wanting to escalate this crisis, but it's almost out of your control, isn't

it? It's how India judges what your response is when it comes.

FAISAL: I agree with you. But when we say all options, that includes peace. That includes possibility of dialogue. That includes finding

solutions because we eventually our neighbors, they are 130 billion. We are 250 million. We have to live together for the last 78 years. We are

fighting, peace, alternating, trying to find ways to live together.

But if they attack us like any country, attacking another country without any shred of every country, U.N. Security Council has advised, de-escalate.

They don't escalate. They didn't listen to the Security Council and they fired all these missiles.

The international community has been saying don't escalate. And they have now unleashed attacks on nine different missiles and on different built-up

areas.

And mosques have been attacked. You understand the sensitivity of mosques. This is not just for Pakistan. This is for all the Muslims, 150 or 70

billion (ph) Muslims around the world. How can you target mosques? And you have seen pictures, very bad pictures of children who have lost their lives

and women who are bleeding and everything. And then there is a claim that - -

(CROSSTALK)

FOSTER: I just wanted to ask you.

FAISAL: Do that. You know, if there is a --

FOSTER: Okay, we obviously in the past America would get involved and help mediate in these moments of tension. I know that President Trump has

suggested that he could get involved. Is that welcome news to you?

FAISAL: We have invited everyone, almost everyone to -- to get involved. The U.N. Secretary General even has called my prime minister because we

want this. We want this to de-escalate. We don't want this to get out of hand.

And anyone who can actually verify the facts and then take it forward, because otherwise its allegations and counter-allegations and of course,

even you would be lost that okay, where is the truth in between. Find the truth for -- to find the truth, let's investigate, an independent observer.

This is exactly what the problem of Jammu and Kashmir is. And you know the solution for Jammu and Kashmir as U.N. Security Council suggested in 1949

and has been suggesting since then, is ask the people of Jammu and Kashmir what they want. And Pakistan stands with that, that whatever the Kashmiri

people want, we are okay with it. India or Pakistan.

The Indians are now backtracking what they agreed to in 1949. So, this is a big problem. The solution of the fundamental problem has to be found. This

is very important.

FOSTER: Okay. Very encouraging to hear you talk about de-escalation, High Commissioner. The whole world is looking at your region right now. Thank

you so much for joining us.

Now, CNN has invited the Indian high commissioner to the United Kingdom for an interview. And we continue to reach out to Indian officials for their

reaction to these recent events as well. We do look forward to hearing from them so we can really reflect that side as well.

Coming up, we've had the first big moment of drama at the papal conclave. In case you missed it, it's almost like watching the movie. We'll discuss

how it compares to the movie. I think you probably know I'm talking about.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:30:06]

FOSTER: Well, fears are mounting as the world wonders just how far escalating tensions between India and Pakistan will go. Pakistan is vowing

to retaliate for military strikes in India, launched on Pakistan and Pakistan administered Kashmir on Wednesday. India targeted what it calls

terrorist infrastructure in response to last month's tourist massacre in India -- India administered Kashmir.

New Delhi blames that attack on Pakistan, which Pakistan denies. At least 31 people were killed in Wednesday's attacks. So, that's according to

Pakistani officials, who add five Indian air force jets were shot down. CNN has not independently confirmed Pakistan's claims there. However, French

intelligence confirms at least one jet was taken down.

Cross-border shelling has been reported as the two nuclear armed neighbors risk an even wider conflict. An Indian source tells CNN that 12 people were

killed in Indian administered Kashmir by Pakistani fire.

More now from CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson. He's in Islamabad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): Just after midnight, Pakistan's peace shattered. A wave of Indian missiles

lighting up the sky rocking the nation, pushing two bitter nuclear-arm neighbors to the brink of all-out war.

Local resident, Waqaz Ahmed (ph), saying fear and terror spread in the people.

India says its attack hit nine sites as Pakistan's military mounted its defense.

AHMED SHARIF CHAUDRY, PAKSITANI MILITARY SPOKESPERSON: So far, I can confirm you that five Indian aircrafts, including three Rafale, one Su-30

and one MiG 29 have been shot down and one Heron drone has also been shot down.

ROBERTSON: According to India, the strikes were in response to last month's killing of 26 civilians in Kashmir by militants, India says, from

Pakistan, which Islamabad denies.

MISRI: These actions were measured, non-escalatory, proportionate and responsible. They focused on dismantling the terrorist infrastructure and

disabling terrorists likely to be sent across to India.

ROBERTSON: Well, India says it was preempting planned terror attacks, although provided no evidence of that claim.

Among the more than two dozen killed in Tuesday night's air raid were children.

Mosques were damaged. An angered Pakistan has already vowed to respond.

CHAUDRY: Pakistan reserves the right and will respond to this aggression at a time, place and means of our own choice.

ROBERTSON: Deadly artillery shelling continues across the de facto border in disputed Kashmir.

India warned Pakistan not to take it further.

SOFIYA QURESHI, INDIAN ARMY: It must be said that the Indian armed forces are fully prepared to respond to Pakistani misadventures, if any, that will

escalate the situation.

ROBERTSON: The country's leader, Narendra Modi, gathered his top officials on Wednesday in the wake of the strikes, which hit deeper inside Pakistan

than any Indian attack for 50 years long before either nation acquired a nuclear bomb.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Islamabad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: As I mentioned, French intelligence has independently confirmed that Pakistan has shot down one plane. So far, CNN hasn't been able to

independently verify Pakistan's claim to have shot down four others.

U.S. President Donald Trump took questions on this topic a short while ago at the White House. He said he was willing to help end this conflict.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But my position is I get along with both. I know both very well and I want to see them work it out.

I want to see them stop and hopefully they can stop now. They've gone tit for tat. So hopefully they can stop now.

But I know both. We get along with both countries very well. Good relationships with both and I want to see it stop. And if I can do anything

to help, I will -- I will be there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Well, what we don't know is how much help there will be. Who will intervene to stop Pakistan and India from descending into war?

Joining me now is CNN's national security correspondent, Alex Marquardt.

Because, Alex, in the past, I mean, this isn't the first time there's been this sort of tension, but always in the past, it was the U.S. that often

got involved and helped de-escalate. And we wonder what will happen this time around.

ALEXANDER MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, we don't know, Max, to what extent the Trump administration actually wants to

get involved. Remember, this is a president who came into office blaming President Joe Biden for allowing the war in Ukraine to start saying it

would never have happened under his watch. He came into office saying that he would end these wars in Ukraine and in Gaza. Of course, both those wars

continue to rage on.

So, this is a president who hasn't certainly is not eager to get involved in yet another conflict. And so far, the U.S. approach, I think, has been

relatively hands off. The first response by President Trump about the Indian strikes in Pakistan was to call it a shame.

He has talked in the past two weeks following that, that terrorist attack in Indian controlled Kashmir, about the long simmering, thousand year-long

simmering tension between the Indians and the Pakistanis. I reached out to the White House today to try to get a better sense of what they were doing,

to try to de-escalate the situation. The first line of the statement that they gave me was that we are aware of the situation between India and

Pakistan.

It was not necessarily a message of them diving into this matter to try to resolve this very quickly. In terms of where the reach outs are happening,

what the contact is, we do know that the secretary of state and now the interim national security advisor, Marco Rubio, has spoken to his

counterparts, but he has encouraged them and their leadership to get in direct contact with each other rather than, say, the U.S. will sit down at

a table with both sides and try to mediate some kind of de-escalation.

So here we have this potentially very dangerous conflict between India and Pakistan, which has a bit of a proxy West versus China element to it. But

there are all kinds of calls for de-escalation. And another thing we certainly don't know is to what extent the two countries will listen and

heed those calls, Max.

FOSTER: That is a frightening prospect, isn't it? A proxy war between the U.S. and China. But as you say, it is not necessarily seen like that. It's

just that the U.S. and China may well be dragged into it, because the U.S. is such a close ally of India, and China is such a close ally of Pakistan.

But they've got talks coming up.

MARQUARDT: Well, it is true what President Trump has said that, you know, historically, the U.S. has been close to both India and Pakistan, but

certainly of late, and certainly under President Trump, the U.S. has been getting closer to India. We saw Prime Minister Modi come here in February

to meet with the president, J.D. Vance, the vice president, just went out to India recently, as did the treasury secretary. We know that the U.S. and

India are on the cusp, we believe, of a -- of a trade deal between the two countries.

If you look at the weapons that the two sides are using and where they continue to get their weaponry, India is now sourcing more weapons from the

West, from the U.S., from Europe, while the Pakistanis are getting them more from the Chinese. So, there is that element to it in the backdrop. But

as you say, Max, I don't think that is really coming to the fore just yet.

Certainly, when it comes to the U.S. and China, I think China would approach this with a similar attitude of we really don't need this right

now. We know that the Americans and the Chinese are going to be sitting down to discuss their own trade deal in the coming days. So, for now,

certainly, it seems like most of the sides, whether it's the U.S. and their European allies or their adversaries in Russia and China, would simply

like, as Trump has said, for the Indians and the Pakistanis to work this out themselves -- Max.

FOSTER: Okay. Alex, thank you so much for that.

Meanwhile, Palestinian officials say more than 100 people have been killed in Gaza over the past 24 hours, including children, accusing Israel of

deliberately targeting civilian areas. A restaurant and schools sheltering families were amongst the targets. U.N. experts say the world is what they

call a moral crossroads, and must do something now to end the bloodshed or witness the annihilation of Palestinians in Gaza. But the war could only

intensify. Israel is openly declaring its intent to move the entire population of Gaza south as it expands the war and holds on to land that it

conquers in its words.

Now, Israel's defense minister says troops won't stop until Hamas is defeated, the hostages are released and the, quote, voluntary immigration

program for Gaza's residents is achieved.

Meanwhile, the Trump administration is pushing ahead with its plans to transport a group of undocumented immigrants to Libya. An administration

official tells CNN the group will be sent out via a U.S. military plane, but the timeline remains unclear. This move could further escalate the U.S.

president's controversial deportation policies.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:43:24]

FOSTER: "Conclave", the film, has surged in popularity, understandably, in recent weeks. It's -- it turns this sacred process into a political

thriller, complete with tense confrontations and a twist ending as well. When I spoke to lead actor Ralph Fiennes at the BAFTAs this year, he told

me he expected the real thing to be similar.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RALPH FIENNES, ACTOR, "CONCLAVE": Well, we will at some point have a conclave and the divisions, I think there might be one or two divisions or

different alignments in the Catholic Church, they will -- they will -- they will come to the fore at some point, like we see in any election anywhere.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: So, what we want to know is how much does the movie "Conclave" resemble the real thing?

Mary Healy advised the late Pope Francis and is a professor at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit.

I'm sorry to ask you this question, but it is the reality. I mean, our -- our prism of conclaves is defined for anyone that's watched that movie. How

much truth is there to it?

MARY HEALY, PROFESSOR OF SCRIPTURE, SACRED HEART MAJOR SEMINARY: First of all, you have to say the timing of that movie coming out was seemingly

supernatural. They could hardly have timed it better. Because now everybody's interested in what a conclave looks like.

I have to say, I think they did their research really well. It was very precise and accurate in many details, although some of the finer details

I'm not familiar with. But I would have to say, as a Catholic, I had the impression watching the movie that it's as if someone is looking inside

from the outside.

[15:45:00]

Kind of like looking inside the stained-glass windows of a cathedral from outside, they look dark and dingy and ugly only from the inside do you see

something different, something beautiful. And mysterious, opening up to another world.

So what I found missing in the movie is the element of the involvement of God, of real, true prayer. Not just memorized prayer or short spontaneous

prayer, but real seeking of what is the will of the Lord Jesus for his church. And the way the movie portrayed faith in the words of the lead

character, deacon, Dean Lawrence, faith is a mingled -- mingled faith and doubt. And he said the sin that he fears most is certainty.

But I would say that's a very secular understanding of faith. Maybe to draw an analogy, would you say you have more faith in your spouse to the degree

you, you, you have doubt in him or her that you have some distrust along with trust? But all the more with God, authentic faith is certainty in God

because he is utterly reliable. So --

FOSTER: So, we've had the first vote, and it's obviously a crucial vote because the way you're describing it, each cardinal is voting independently

on the advice of God, and he's put down his vote. And then you're going to have a lot of votes going for certain people.

But, you know, isn't Ralph Fiennes right to say that from this point on, it does realistically become political because you have to create a group

around a particular figure in order to -- for you to be able to decide on a pope. You know, cardinals have to work together. There has to be

compromise. So politics does come into play.

HEALY: That's right. That's the interesting thing, is that it's simultaneously a spiritual and a very human reality. And there is

politicking, there is campaigning, there is forming of alliances, shifting of alliances as each ballot is taken.

Even -- even there's been corruption. That's no secret. Lots of corruption in the church, including in the papal conclaves.

So, all of that is occurring, and certainly as each ballot is taken, it begins to surface who the more likely candidates are, who -- who is getting

some votes --

FOSTER: And I just wonder I'm having lots of questions about the smoke tonight because we did have guidance, didn't we, from the Vatican, that it

would come at roughly a certain time. It was an hour or two hours delayed.

Obviously, conspiracy theories emerging around this. But you're an expert. You know, the Vatican, you've worked there, you know these buildings. Just

explain to us why you think we had that delay.

HEALY: Well, I can only speculate. Who knows what complications there could be in having more cardinal electors than there have ever been before,

133 who are in the Sistine Chapel voting, speaking many different languages. Not all of them speak Italian. Not all of them speak English. So

that probably complicates things. Who knows if they even have legible handwriting? The movie brought that out at one point.

So, there could be any number of interesting reasons for the delay. And unfortunately, everyone involved has taken an oath never to reveal what has

gone on in the Sistine Chapel.

FOSTER: I know, but it does leak, Mary, you know, there have been some leaks, otherwise, this movie couldn't have been made, you know, could it?

Because we needed some detail.

Mary Healy, thank you so much.

Still to come, is the Middle East ready for Mickey Mouse? We've got details of the region's first Disney theme park. Find out where it is, where you

can visit. It's going to be mega.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:51:56]

FOSTER: The happiest place on Earth coming to the Middle East. Disney announced its building a theme park in Abu Dhabi. It is the first new theme

park from the House of Mouse in 15 years, and its first -- a first for the Middle East, something Disney executives say is long overdue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH D'AMARO, CHAIRMAN, DISNEY EXPERIENCE: When you bring Disney into the mix of a tourism destination and you build with the ambition that we plan

to build with here, undoubtedly what will happen is that will attract even more tourists in. And I think that this is going to be a spark that really

moves in the direction that you're -- you're talking about here. And that's why we chose this location.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Well, Disney rolling in pixie dust as well today. Look at that up, more than 10 or 9 percent, nearly 10 percent. The company's share price

jumping more than 10 percent at one point as it reported strong results from the U.S. theme parks.

For more on this, let's bring in CNN's Brian Stelter.

So it wasn't the Abu Dhabi announcement that did that.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: It was everything. It was also that streaming performance exceeded expectations, even though Disney's been

hiking the price for its streaming products, as other companies have, they still were able to gain the total number of subscribers. They're referring

to this as page sharing, the idea that they're making people share passwords. You have to pay for the privilege to share passwords now, but

it's working, according to Bob Iger.

So, you have that and you have this new theme park. Disney basically exceeded in every sector of the business. And that's the argument that's

always been made to shareholders that having a theme park and the streaming platform and the cable channels, it all works together. It was a good day

for Iger to go to prove that and also to look to the future. Building these theme parks can take a decade.

So you have to get started. You have to announce them, you have to build it out. And in this case find partners to do it with.

FOSTER: The UAE likes to go big, paint a picture of what we're going to see there.

STELTER: Right. And I think what's really unique about this one is how technologically advanced it can be. I was just at Disneyland two weeks ago

with my family. First time there at the OG original California theme park, and it is special in so many ways, but you can tell sometimes that it's

been around for generations. You're not seeing necessarily the most advanced features, except on some of the roller coasters.

As Disney expands, for example, in Orlando, opening up new parts of its parks as they expand in Abu Dhabi, you're going to see new technology

coming online that makes these in theme parks more interactive. I think that's the real opportunity. People are so used to looking at their phones

all the time, but what if you're able to kind of almost absorb yourself within the park more deeply with your phone? Augmented reality, that kind

of technology?

FOSTER: Have they got any technology for cues? Because that's the problem.

STELTER: Well, you know --

FOSTER: You've been to Disneyland Paris?

STELTER: Disney has learned that they can charge more for those fast passes for those lightning lanes. They are really pushing the upper limit

to how much they can charge. And it's been working for them.

FOSTER: So, is this the future? Obviously, we've had Disney resorts for a long time, but they have to diversify, find different forms of income

because of the pressure from advertising and from the streaming. Is that right? I mean, is this the future of a media company?

STELTER: I interviewed the Disney Parks chairman last year. We talked about how the population is growing a lot more quickly than his resorts and

theme parks are growing.

In other words, I think he's trying to now to meet the demand that exists.

[15:55:02]

Disney is also building a bunch more cruise ships, like five more cruise ships in the next 5 or 6 years, because they're trying to meet the demand

that already exists. There is this phenomenon of so-called Disney adults. You know, I see them when I'm at the parks, people who are there without

kids, who are there for the experience, even though they're all grown up.

FOSTER: Yeah.

STELTER: I think they're tapping into that. They're tapping into people who've never been able to go to the parks before. Think about it, right?

The more parks you have, the more -- the more space you're going to have, the more supply and demand.

And I do think in a world where there's this media flywheel with streaming, you're experiencing Moana in the movie theater on streaming, then you're

going to want to go ride on the Moana ride. That's a win for Disney and for these other companies that own these parks.

FOSTER: Brian, thank you so much. You got a fun job at the moment, traveling to resorts.

STELTER: Thank you.

FOSTER: Really.

I'm Max Foster. That is WHAT WE KNOW.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" with Richard up next.

END

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