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What We Know with Max Foster

Israel & Hamas Blame Each Other As Ceasefire Talks Falter; Rising Sentiment That U.S. Should Pull Back On Aid To Israel; WSJ Reports On 2003 Letter To Epstein Bearing Trump's Name; Trump Orders Release Of "Pertinent" Grand Jury Docs On Epstein; EU Hits Russia With Strongest Sanctions Package In Years; Trump Threatens To Sue Murdoch Over WSJ"s Epstein Claims; House Approves $9B DOGE Spending Cuts To Foreign Aid, PBS & NPR; CBS To End "The Late Show With Stephen Colbert" In May. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired July 18, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:41]

MAX FOSTER, CNN HOST: Israel and Hamas are blaming each other as ceasefire talks fail again.

This is WHAT WE KNOW.

Ceasefire talks faltering whilst the lives of Palestinians and Israeli hostages in Gaza hang in the balance.

A short while ago, Hamas warned that it cannot guarantee any future truces if Israel doesn't agree to work towards a permanent end to the war. In

Gaza, church leaders from Jerusalem visited a Catholic Church hit by an Israeli strike. Israel blames stray ammunition, saying it deeply regrets

the mistake. Three people were killed. The church leaders brought food aid with them, as well as medical supplies. As Gaza's population faces a

deepening humanitarian crisis.

The Palestinian health ministry says an unprecedented number of starving civilians are now arriving at hospitals, their bodies so weakened by hunger

and fatigue that they're at risk of imminent death. The ministry says at least 69 people have already died from malnutrition.

The United States is Israel's biggest backer, supplying funds and weapons that fuel the war. But a new CNN poll finds the American public is growing

increasingly disillusioned. Just 23 percent of Americans now say Israeli military actions in Gaza are fully justified. Thats a drop from 50 percent

shortly after the October 7th attacks by Hamas in 2023.

I'm joined now by our international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson.

I mean, a lot of people watching won't be surprised that when we say ceasefire talks are faltering again, because it doesn't feel as if they

ever really got off to a start.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, there was a sense created by president Trump right after the strikes on Iran, by both

Israel and the U.S., that there was a there was a possibility of momentum. And he was talking about it happening soon. But I think at the beginning of

this week, most people thought, okay, were it's run into the sand, run into usual problems. But then a couple of days ago, Israel agreed not to put

troops in a key position inside of Gaza. And that got everyone thinking that it could move forward again.

But now, as you say there, Hamas is saying unless Israel really talks about a permanent ceasefire, they can't guarantee pauses in the future. Neither

can they guarantee to release ten hostages as now. And Israel is saying that it's Hamas that's at fault. Hamas is refusing to discuss the key

detail that that balances the number of Palestinians released for the number of Israeli hostages being released. So, so both sides are talking

about an impasse.

President Trump had wanted this to get done, and Prime Minister Netanyahu is under pressure. But it's not moving. That's how it looks right now.

FOSTER: And the way, you know, this attack on the church has gone down horribly, hasn't it, in so many different quarters. And they're saying it

was a stray ammunition that that did that. Interesting the way the church leaders addressed it effectively by visiting with essential food supplies,

medical supplies, really emphasizing the issue that they've got in Gaza right now.

ROBERTSON: And wanting to bring out the injured. But I think, you know, one of the key indicators here that how much pressure Prime Minister

Netanyahu is, is under is that these church important people in the church, patriarchs are both the Catholic and the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem

were allowed to go to Gaza so quickly and notable that Prime Minister Netanyahu said that this was, you know, a mistake very quickly and very

early.

This is a church, by the way, where the parish priest was injured, but this was the parish priest who had that really long and deep and strong

connection with the late Pope Francis. Pope Francis used to call the church every day, speak to the priest there about the situation. So, no surprise

that Prime Minister Netanyahu today ends up getting into a phone conversation with the pope. That shows you the level of pressure the pope

telling him is the humanitarian situation on a day where there's been video of people running through markets in Gaza, shutting them down,

Palestinians, because prices are too high, malnutrition, rising food prices. It's a desperate situation.

So, the pope putting pressure on Prime Minister Netanyahu and the -- one of the results of that pressure is what we saw, these very important church

leaders being allowed into Gaza.

FOSTER: Nic Robertson, thank you so much for bringing us that efforts towards some peace in some quarters there.

We're just monitoring this event where Donald Trump is speaking. It's a bill signing. And of course, the big theme at the moment is the Epstein

fallout, you know, whether he'll address that. So, we're watching for that.

White House in full damage control mode really today over that. "The Wall Street Journal" published what it says is a 2003 letter from Donald Trump

to Jeffrey Epstein. According to the paper, the birthday greeting included a suggestive drawing of a woman and concluded with "Happy birthday, may

every day be another wonderful secret".

The president called the letter fake and threatened to sue "The Journal" and his longtime friend Rupert Murdoch of the paper's parent company, of

course.

Joining us is David Graham. He's a staff writer for "The Atlantic" and the author of "The Project: How Project 2025 is Reshaping America".

David, thank you so much for joining us.

You know, never underestimate Donald Trump, right? He's had crises before. He's got through them. But do you feel he's floundering on this one?

DAVID GRAHAM, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: You know, this is a level of confusion and sort of spinning from Trump that I don't think we've seen

this term. It's very similar to some of the crises in his first term. But he's been a little bit more disciplined, a little bit more organized this

term and maybe been a little bit more on the offensive. So, I think that's one thing.

And the other thing is this gets, I think, really to the heart of Trump's appeal because he's asking people to trust the government after spending a

lot of time telling him they couldn't believe the government.

So, I think that makes it an unusually difficult scandal for him.

FOSTER: What do you make of this obviously clear tension now between Rupert Murdoch, who was very central, wasn't he, to Donald Trump's campaign

efforts going -- you know, what's your understanding within the journalism industry for a start? You know, would Rupert Murdoch be able to say to the

editor of "The Wall Street Journal", "you can't run this"? Just explain that one first.

GRAHAM: Sure. He very much would.

FOSTER: Yeah.

GRAHAM: You know, he has full control over "The Journal", but he also seems to be more willing to let the journal challenge Trump. And they've

been very strong in challenging Trump at times than some of his other properties, like "The New York Post" or Fox News.

FOSTER: Okay. And in terms of, you know, Rupert Murdoch famously has his finger on the pulse, like Donald Trump as well. Do you think he sees

something happening here to have allowed that story to go ahead?

GRAHAM: For Murdoch, I think there's a few things going on. One is that although he sometimes cozies up to Trump, he's also at times been critical

of him. He was critical during 2015, 2015 and the first Trump presidential election. He was critical while Trump was out of office for a while before

sort of getting back on the team.

I also think that he enjoys sort of stirring things up and having a sort of prestigious reporting place like "The Wall Street Journal", even if some of

his other outlets then tend to act more as propaganda outlets for Trump.

FOSTER: So, then we go into a legal process. Clearly, "The Wall Street Journal" is very confident that this was obviously written by Donald Trump.

So, it will come down to whether or not it's real or not, presumably.

GRAHAM: Presumably. I mean, Trump has managed to bully some of these other news organizations with defamation lawsuits. But, you know, "The Journal"

says that they have the document and there's no reason to believe, given their track record, that they don't.

FOSTER: And what do you understand from the MAGA movement? You know, lower down right now because there's a bit of a debate about this that, you know,

some of the liberal media perhaps saying that MAGA is falling apart because of this, which isn't a true narrative. I mean, how concerned are MAGA about

what's happening here?

GRAHAM: I think there's a lot of confusion and divisions within the movement, and I certainly wouldn't want to overstate it. I think there is a

kind of glee on the left, an idea that that Trump's whole movement is splintering. And I'm not sure that's true.

But you do see a lot of divisions in the media among politicians, even among people in the administration. And I think it gets to a weak point for

Trump. So, it's clearly viewed as a threat by the White House, which is why you see Trump going off on these, you know, long capitalized rants on Truth

Social and elsewhere.

FOSTER: Obviously, there's some confusion about what these Epstein files are. Theres obviously lots of different documents, aren't there? They might

not necessarily be one list. And that's all become part of a legend, really, hasn't it?

But is the issue with the people that have the problem with Donald Trump right now, that he could just get them released and he's not doing it, and

that actually speaks to all of the problems he's talked about the establishment in the past.

GRAHAM: Right. I think he and a lot of the people around him have inflated expectations that there are smoking guns in these documents, that there is

a client list, supposedly, even though we don't have any actual evidence of that. And so, to turn around from saying that to saying there's nothing to

see, to see the attorney general going from saying she has the client list on her desk to the Justice Department, saying that there is no client list,

I think, understandably makes people wonder what to believe and cast doubt on what the government is saying. So, even if it's true that there's

nothing there, they have a real credibility deficit and that's hitting them right now.

FOSTER: David Graham, appreciate your insights on that. Thank you so much for joining us from North Carolina.

Well, the president is now calling for the release of what he describes as pertinent grand jury testimony in the case. Attorney General Pam Bondi says

she plans to make that request in federal court today.

More now from CNN's chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: A Justice Department official tells me that the government still intends to go to a judge today,

Friday, to ask to unseal additional materials from the Epstein grand jury.

Now, this is a long shot request. Grand jury materials are by default, confidential. Grand jury proceeding is where prosecutors go present a case

to a panel, but the bar is much lower than it is for criminal convictions. They don't need to bring in all the evidence they have. In this case, what

has not been unsealed. It has been suggested that a lot of that remains under seal to protect victims and accusers.

But this evidence, whether it's unsealed or not, only represents a tiny portion of the overall evidence that was gathered in the course of this

investigation. The attorney general, the FBI, they still have in their possession millions of pages, tens of thousands of documents that they can

release at any point if they want to.

Now, the attorney general has flip-flopped on this. She suggested she would release additional information. Then in a memo last week, said she would

not be doing that.

They have tried to let this controversy, the outrage over this decision blow over. That's clearly not working. So now, they're going to go to a

judge to try to get maybe some grand jury evidence released. But that does not solve the problem that they have, which is for the people who really

care about this, for the people that follow this very closely, they know that the Justice Department has a lot more evidence, and they're going to

continue to ask questions about why that hasn't been released.

Now, if none of this works, they still have one more option to just buy them time. That is, to tap in an independent investigator, a special

counsel or a U.S. attorney who's been appointed by Trump to review this matter. But that only buys you time. It's unclear that they would come to a

different conclusion, and at some point, people would want answers. They would want that final report. They would want the findings.

And it's unclear that the special counsel would come to a different conclusion, and it would drudge this whole controversy up again. President

Trump is very adept at playing the long game, waiting for things to blow over. But this, this is different because, again, a lot of the outrage is

actually coming from his own supporters.

And in many ways, this has been a self-inflicted controversy after the president's closest supporters and advisers have been inflating the

questions about Epstein continuing to bring up some very legitimate ones, but also in some cases, pushing -- pushing ideas and conspiracy theories

that were not rooted in reality. And now, after promising to release more documents, they are facing the consequences of not doing so. So, it will

take a while for this judge to make a decision. Nothing will happen imminently, but I think there's going to be a lot of questions that linger

no matter what happens in the New York courts.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: Paula Reid there.

In Los Angeles, at least three people have died after an explosion at a sheriff's department training center. The sheriff's department says the

incident happened early on Friday at a facility housing its bomb squad. U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi says agents are on the ground.

Now to Brazil, though, where the Supreme Court has ordered ex-President Jair Bolsonaro to wear an electronic ankle monitor and barred him from

speaking to foreign officials, CNN Brazil reports police also raided his home and political headquarters, seizing cash and placing him under curfew.

It comes amid his trial over an alleged plot to overturn the 2022 presidential election and remain in power.

Here's what Bolsonaro said today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAIR BOLSONARO, FORMER BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): I am a former president. I am 70 years old. It's a supreme humiliation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Let's go to Stefano Pozzebon, standing by for us live in Bogota, Colombia.

I mean, how have the authorities explained this, Stefano?

STEFANO POZZEBON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, the authorities are saying, just like you said, that Bolsonaro, the former president of Brazil, was at risk

of leaving the country, perhaps to avoid this, the trial, the verdict of this trial, which we understand is -- could come at any point, at any time

at this point. And besides the fact that it's striking that a former head of state might even leave the country after facing accusations of

masterminding a failed coup, the thing is striking here is that Donald Trump is casting a long shadow all over this case. He's a very close friend

and a very close ally of Bolsonaro, and he's currently threatening a 50 percent tariff on Brazilian exports towards the United States in

retaliation for this case.

It's nothing to do with trade. It's nothing to do with the economy.

[15:15:01]

It's directly in retaliation for this trial, which he considers unfair.

And I think, Max, that we need to be prepared. We need to brace for even more confrontation between Bolsonaro, between Washington and Brasilia,

because it looks like that Brazil is ready to stand up to those tariffs and perhaps even retaliate with similar tariffs. But this is something that is

very, very personal for the U.S. president.

Take a listen to what one analyst that I've been speaking with today told me about two hours ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN WINTER, AMERICAS QUARTERLY: I think this is very personal for President Trump. I think that he believes that what is happening in Brazil

right now is political persecution of former President Bolsonaro in a way that reminds Trump of what happened to him and the parallels between the

2020 election in the United States and the 2022 election in Brazil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POZZEBON: And, Max, like I said in the past, Donald Trump has tried to use the threat of tariffs as a way to impose his view, especially in foreign

policy. But it looks like that in the current president of Brazil, Luis Inacio Lula da Silva. He really has found a formidable opponent because

even yesterday, in an interview with our colleague Christiane Amanpour, an exclusive interview on CNN, Lula told us that he's ready to retaliate, that

he's not afraid of paying the costs of these tariffs, and even told the president of the United States pretty much to mind his own business, that

he will take care of the businesses in Brazil.

That's why I think we really need to pay a very, very close eye. They really need to pay close attention to what's happening in Brazil, because

the confrontation could really, really spiral, especially if you consider that Bolsonaro -- well, he could be charged, it could be found guilty at

any point of those -- of those charges and risks up to 40 years in jail. It's very serious -- Max.

FOSTER: Okay. Stefano Pozzebon in Bogota, Colombia, thank you so much for joining us.

The fragile ceasefire between the Syrian government and the Druze in southern Syria seems to be holding, but uncertainty remains. The Syrian

network for human rights estimates violence between the Druze and the Bedouin communities has led to at least 321 deaths. CNN can't independently

verify that figure, but there are reports of ongoing clashes between different tribal groups and militias.

The fighting led Israel to strike the Syrian capital, Damascus, on Wednesday in support of the Druze.

Exiled Syrian Druze writer Sarah Hunaidi says there's been, quote, chaos killings in brutal slaughter. She spoke to CNN earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARAH HUNAIDI, EXILED SYRIAN WRITER: No one is okay. My -- half of my family is displaced and they are all staying in a small place right now,

and they're afraid for their lives. But the general, not just my family. I'm losing friends. We're losing loved ones every day just for, like,

chaos, killings.

Syria and especially, I mean, Suwayda has been through a horrible siege right now. All roads to Suwayda are blocked. No food is allowed to enter

right now. All roads, like I said, are closed.

The food supplies are running out. So, people are really scared. There's no electricity for days. Hospitals are out of service. It's really, really a

horrible situation. The reality right now is that, okay, the ceasefire. Yes. The government is currently you know, they took their -- after they

entered the city, maybe trying to take advantage of what is happening and take over Suwayda even though mostly a lot of factions in Suwayda refuse to

be under the current government.

So, it's -- I don't think anyone has this, you know, covered right now. It's actually escalating quickly. And yeah, that ceasefire is just a word

that's been used, and it's kind of lost its meaning, especially, you know, in Gaza and everywhere else. I don't think this is really under control

right now. It's the opposite.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Coming up, the strongest sanctions in years. We'll take a look at what's included in the E.U.'s new sanction package and the backlash from

the Kremlin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:22:32]

FOSTER: The Kremlin sharply criticizing the latest round of E.U. sanctions, calling them illegal and anti-Russian. The measures focus on oil

and gas, some of Russia's main sources of income to finance its war effort. The E.U. has banned transactions related to the Nord Stream gas pipelines

running under the Baltic Sea. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy welcomes the move, calling it essential and timely.

So, what we want to know is will these E.U. sanctions have any effect on Russia's war?

Joining me now Gabrielius Landsbergis, former Lithuanian foreign minister.

Thank you so much for joining us.

I mean, just looking at the Russian reaction does suggest that it's going to be painful to them, doesn't it?

GABRIELIUS LANDSBERGIS, FORMER LITHUANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, it could be. I mean, really for a very long time we have not seen such so many

measures being voted in by the members of the European Union. So indeed, it does send a message that Europe is taking its role in assisting Ukraine and

trying to stop the war rather seriously, or at least more seriously, than at least what we have seen from coming from Washington so far. So I

understand that Moscow can be frustrated.

FOSTER: Will it affect the war? I guess the answer there is, you know how much it affects the supply of oil, right? So, can it get around these

sanctions? Questions like that? Will it reduce the amount of money going into Russia? I mean, what do you think? And having seen how Russia operates

with those trade routes, for example.

LANDSBERGIS: I would probably point out that the most important thing is sanctioning a rather significant number of shadow fleet ships. This has

been a, I would say, a number one means of Russia getting its oil through the Baltic Sea out to the world markets, and they've been using roughly,

you know, from 800 to 1,000 different ships.

So, sanctioning at least 10 percent of that, you know, we taking into account that, you know, a big percentage of that has already been

sanctioned in the past, that's a step forward. Will it stop the war? Well, I -- unfortunately, I don't think so.

It has always puzzled me why we are knowing which ships do the -- do the transfers, you know, carry the oil, knowing the number of ships, probably

knowing the name of ships still go in incremental steps towards sanctioning them all. Why wouldn't be able to stop them all and actually deprive Russia

of a really significant amount of money coming into its coffers?

[15:25:06]

FOSTER: It's very true, isn't it? People talk about the shadow fleet. Everyone seems to know who they are, you know which they are. And they're

allowed to keep going. But it is, as you say, some progress.

And then the question is if they can't, if they -- if they can't sell as much oil westwards, they could potentially sell more to China and India

presumably. So that's the -- that's -- they've always got that as a solution, haven't they?

LANDSBERGIS: Yes, indeed. And this has always been the -- one of the major questions. And the major issues that we were posing towards our allies in

Washington and also in brussels, if we cannot reach out to countries like India and China and Brazil and others in global, you know, other global

partners that help Russia circumvent the sanctions that buy its resources, and in that way assist Russia's war effort. Well, then most of our

sanctions might be -- might be proven to be rather inefficient.

And here, United States has the, you know, the sharpest weapons in this. Therefore, the bill that has been talked about in, in the Senate, that has

passed the Congress and was talked about in the Senate, but never reached the Senate floor and was always the one of the main instruments that could

be used. And if Europe could follow that direction, that could be probably the most efficient way. How to -- how to harm Russia.

FOSTER: Okay. Gabrielius Landsbergis, thank you so much for joining us with that insight on, you know, it was a big moment, but we'll have to see

how much impact it actually has.

Anti-immigration rhetoric from far-right groups in Spain surging on social media right now. Violent clashes have broken out in a south-southeastern

town between far-right groups, residents and North African migrants. At least 13 people have been detained after many nights of unrest.

Pau Mosquera takes a look at how the conflict began.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAU MOSQUERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tension has boiled over in Torre-Pacheco, a small town in southeastern Spain after days of anti-

migrant clashes. For several nights, violence rocked this community of 41,000, where nearly a third are foreigners, most from Africa. The spark, a

violent assault on July 9th, when a 68-year-old local was attacked. He claimed his attackers were Moroccan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Those without papers should pack up and leave.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): We are tired of the situation, very tired. We don't feel safe when we go out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): And what times we live in. We are in the year 2025. We should be valuing immigrants united with mutual

love.

MOSQUERA: Police arrested some suspects but have not confirmed their nationality, only that they weren't locals. Still, far right groups seized

on the incident, using social media to organize what they call migrant hunts. Thirteen people have been detained in connection with the unrest.

More than 100 civil guard officers were deployed.

The alleged ringleader detained in Mataro, hundreds of kilometers away, now faces hate crime charges.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): How is this our fault?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We're afraid to leave town because of this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This is a diverse municipality. We only want to live in harmony and peace.

MOSQUERA: Officials are urging calm and warning against hate speech, blaming far right agitators.

ELMA SAIZ, SPANISH MINISTER OF INCLUSION, SOCIAL SECURITY AND MIGRATIONS (through translator): We don't know how far these far right groups can

take this. Today, it's immigrants, but tomorrow, it could be women, LGBTI groups.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MOSQUERA (on camera): Although the situation has calmed down, the authorities will maintain the deployment of security forces until the

municipality returns to normal.

Paul Mosqueda, CNN, Madrid.

FOSTER: Intense wildfires in Spain have led to evacuations of firefighters rushed to stop the flames. Video shows efforts to combat the billowing

smoke in towns near Madrid. The civil guard has evacuated dozens of people in Central Spain.

Two billionaires, each with huge amounts of power, at each other's throats again. Up next, will the Epstein saga be the last straw for Donald Trump

and Rupert Murdoch?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: Returning to one of our top stories tonight, Donald Trump's threat to sue "The Wall Street Journal" and Rupert Murdoch is just the latest

chapter in the ongoing saga between the two billionaires. They've had something of an on, on and off again relationship over the years. Murdoch's

right wing media outlets were influential in helping Mr. Trump win the presidency in 2016, then turned on him after the January 6th attacks in

Washington before reconciling as Mr. Trump returned to power.

Now there are odds again over "The Journal's" claims that Mr. Trump wrote a birthday message to Jeffrey Epstein.

Our chief media analyst, Brian Stelter, is with us.

You've covered both, of course, over the years in many ways. But can I just ask you about the technicalities here? Donald Trump calling up Rupert

Murdoch. Would he tell the editor not to run the story if he wanted him not to run the story, or would he stay out of it? I mean, how does Murdoch

operate on those events?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: There is a history of Rupert Murdoch being very intimately involved at his newspapers, especially his

tabloids in Great Britain, but also at his papers in the U.S., like "The New York Post".

However, Murdoch has historically been more hands off at "The Wall Street Journal". "The Journal" is a very prestigious paper in the U.S. It's won

every journalism award you can think of. He's very proud to own "The Wall Street Journal" and have used it as the best of American journalism.

So, he is very involved in the editorials, the opinion side of "The Journal", but he's normally more hands off on the news side. That being

said, when the president of the United States calls up Murdoch and threatens him and demands that this story be killed, look, Murdoch could

have done anything in a situation such as this. He could have leaned on his editor to spike the story. He could have leaned on the editors to delay it

or soften the story, or do something else in order to water it down.

There's no evidence, however, that Murdoch did anything like that. Instead, there's a lot of pride at "The Wall Street Journal" today that the story

was published. In fact, some staffers referring to it as a brave act because we're in a really unusual situation here where the American

president is calling up newspaper owners, threatening them with lawsuits. This is not a situation that normally ends well, but at least for now, "The

Journal" has shown some backbone.

[15:35:00]

Murdoch has gone ahead and allowed the paper to publish it, and now all the dominoes are falling, Max.

FOSTER: There's no way they would have taken this risk, would they, if they thought there was anything -- any truth to the fact that it might have

been a fake image. Donald Trump saying he just didn't do it.

They have to be sure, don't they? They wouldn't have taken a risk like this without being sure.

STELTER: Yes, they have to be sure. This story must have been rock solid. And look, "The Wall Street Journal" is not the only outlet that's been

chasing claims about Trump and Epstein. We know about the old friendship from decades ago, but there may still be other reporting that needs to be

done about the extent of that friendship and what exactly the relationship was like.

Other news outlets have been pursuing these kinds of stories. "The Journal" in some ways scooped the others by getting this out there, and the journal

would not have published it if it was not rock solid.

Now, listen, Trump is threatening a lawsuit, but he has a long history of threatening litigation. Sometimes he does follow through, but a lot of

other times those threats do not amount to anything. And I suspect "The Journal" is betting on its reporters and its sourcing on this matter,

knowing that Trump would not have a strong legal case to begin with.

FOSTER: Do you think the optics aren't great for Donald Trump? Just asking for it to be suppressed because it lends credence to the idea that there

might be some truth to it.

STELTER: That's what's been going on all week long with this Epstein controversy. Almost everything President Trump said has left people

wondering, what's he hiding? What's he so afraid of? What has he got to lose?

You know, everything about Trump's behavior suggests that he is very concerned about this matter. And listen, to give him the benefit of the

doubt, we don't know all the details about the friendship. We don't know exactly why or when Trump kicked Epstein out of Mar-a-Lago, as he says he

did many years ago. And there's also no evidence of wrongdoing by the president in the past, as relates to Epstein.

So, you know, we don't know what kind of skeletons he might be worried about. Frankly, Max, I feel like we're talking about a story where we're

looking at it through a soda straw. We can only see one little bit of it. There's still a lot more to learn here. And that may be to the benefit or

to the to the downside for President Trump, we don't know.

FOSTER: Yeah. Well, it's very hard, isn't it. Reporting on something we don't know about. But everyone's talking about. But that's the world we're

in, Brian. Thank you.

President Donald Trump expected to sign a $9 billion spending cuts package today. The House approved the DOGE bill overnight, a measure that

dramatically slashes spending that had already been approved by Congress. It calls for a claw-back of $8 billion in funding for foreign aid, and

another 1 billion in cuts to public broadcasting as well.

CNN's Eva McKend is in Washington.

I mean, across the board, there are -- there's going to be a real impact here. And as we say, you know, these organizations had already planned to

spend this money.

EVA MCKEND, CNN U.S. NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Max, the impact of this will be quite significant. It's been remarkable to see how

much President Trump has been able to achieve his domestic policy agenda with relative ease, aided by the near-total compliance of congressional

Republicans. This is $9 billion that was already allocated, meaning this is money Congress already designated for foreign aid, public broadcasting that

they will now claw back after President Trump essentially just asked them to.

And while many of the Trump administration's early moves have come by executive action, because this time Congress stepped in, it gives it more

legitimacy. Democrats argue the cuts to programs like USAID will cost lives, millions of them. There are programs that prevent disease outbreaks,

maintain safe childbirth, and provide humanitarian aid.

Public media, particularly in rural communities across the United States, is often one of the few ways to access vital information. It does call into

question how committed Congress will be to their power of the purse that is in the Constitution, something they previously were not so quick to cede --

Max.

FOSTER: Eva McKend, thank you.

Still to come, one of President Trump's most vocal critics being taken off air. Why the CBS? Why the CBS says its canceling "Late Night with Stephen

Colbert".

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:42:24]

FOSTER: CBS pulling the plug on one of its most popular late night shows. One of the most popular on U.S. TV. In fact, it says "The Late Show with

Stephen Colbert" will end in May.

The network calls the decision financial. The announcement comes just weeks after Paramount, CBS's parent company, settled a $16 million lawsuit with

President Trump. Colbert is an outspoken Trump critic, and his cancellation comes ahead of Paramount's merger with Skydance Media, which will need

federal approval.

Here's how Colbert shared the news with the audience on Thursday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN COLBERT, THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT: The network will be ending the late show in May and I share your feelings. It's not just the

end of our show, but it's the end of the late show on CBS. I'm not being replaced. This is all just going away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: So, what we don't know is, does late night tv have a future in the U.S.?

Joining me now, Bill Carter, former media reporter for "The New York Times".

I mean, it is interesting to see what's happening in late night TV, isn't it? Are the audiences have been falling?

He's not being replaced. CBS says it's for financial reasons and there's nothing to suggest it isn't, is it because there's lots of people

speculating today about why this is happening?

BILL CARTER, FORMER MEDIA REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, they left themselves open to this speculation by the sheer timing of the

announcement, because, as your introduction pointed out, they -- they recently caved to a lawsuit, a frivolous lawsuit that Trump had pushed

against "60 Minutes", their chief news program. And he has been an outspoken, outspoken enemy of Stephen Colbert, and basically made other

threats about what he might do with the broadcast licenses of stations owned by networks.

So, there were -- there's reasons to think that there was political interference here, even though it is perfectly valid to say that these

shows, the late-night shows, are financially challenged, as they've never been before. But the timing makes CBS really vulnerable to this criticism,

and they are really getting very much hammered by it, certainly in terms of Hollywood and other places for what looks like a cave to Donald Trump.

FOSTER: What do people within CBS saying today?

CARTER: Well, the CBS official line is, of course, that that they made a decision purely on financial grounds, and it has nothing to do with

politics.

[15:45:08]

Many people inside CBS are, in fact dubious, as they were with the whole "60 Minutes" affair, because the deal for SkyDance to buy Paramount Media,

which owns CBS, is not complete and it has to get government approval to be complete. So, they have incentive to make a deal for sure. And that's

looming over this whole question. And if you're going to make a move like this, you could have made it virtually any time they're leaving the show on

for another, basically another year until May.

So they had plenty of time to make this after the deal concluded. But they made it before the deal concluded, which makes people think, well, this was

also sort of a quid pro quo from Trump. There's no evidence for that. That's just the way people are going to be suspicious, given the timing.

FOSTER: Do these shows have a future, do you think? They're very expensive, aren't they?

CARTER: Well, it's interesting. For most of their history, they were great economic advantages for a network because there are 4 or 5 shows a week,

you know, you had a star that cost a lot of money, but it wasn't like putting on, you know, an expensive drama production or things like that.

So, they made sense economically for a long time.

Now, of course, everything on broadcast or linear television has lost all kinds of audience, so they can't really amortize their ratings as well

because the ratings are low. Their viewers are somewhat older than they used to be, and so they can't get as much advertising revenue. But I think

they are part of the American culture.

These shows have been on for, well, the original was on 70 years ago, so they have really been a part of the culture. And for the plug to be pulled

on one that has been an established franchise since the 1990s really shocks people because it isn't just, oh, we got to get rid of Stephen Colbert

because Trump doesn't like him. We're going to kill the whole franchise. We're going to eliminate this.

And that's kind of a blow, because there are definitely still people who, if they don't watch the show live, they watch clips of it online in very

big numbers. The audience for it, if you count the linear, the online portion is enormous. It's tens of millions of people.

So it's -- they're still very popular, even though they are not as economically sound.

FOSTER: Also, for a lot of people who weren't engaged with news, they would often hear about the news, wouldn't they? Through these late night

shows, as you say, they were updated every day and people were informed about news.

Are you concerned that people won't at least have some tidbits about the news when these shows go away?

CARTER: Well, this is a very good point because essentially, the monologues that that the hosts would do would be commenting on what

happened that day or in recent days in the news, and they would obviously make fun of the president or other officials for whatever was going on. And

that was part -- that's very much a part of our whole American, you know, value system.

We started as a country because we had a king and we didn't want a king. We wanted to have freedom. And part of the freedom was, you can say whatever

you want about the leader, and there's no reprisals, no fear of reprisal. We had that from the beginning of our country, and that's what late night

has been.

Presidents have been criticized all the time. Every president has experienced this. In fact, going back even further, you know, editorial

cartoons criticize the leaders and that no leader then stepped up and said, you have to fire that person because he's making fun of me or criticizing

me.

This is only Trump doing this. And for them to react this way, it feels like a real blow to the American value system. And let's face it, even if

CBS says Trump had nothing to do with it, Trump thinks he did. He's already come out and celebrated, the fact that Colbert has been fired because

that's what he wanted. It's kind of a dark turn for the country to think, well, we can't have people being, you know, satiric about our, our

political leaders because they can basically eliminate them if they put pressure on their, on their corporate owners. It's a bad sign for the

country.

FOSTER: Yeah. It'd be interesting to see what he does next. I'm sure he'll try to keep a platform, won't he?

Bill Carter --

CARTER: He can find -- he'll find work. He's a big star. He'll find work.

FOSTER: Very talented. Yeah. Thank you so much, Bill.

Now, some news just in on the kiss cam video that's gone viral over the last 24 hours. The tech company Astronomer says it will launch a formal

investigation after its CEO was caught on camera in an embarrassing moment, let's say, at a Coldplay concert. The clip will be familiar to many of you

by now. You can't -- I mean, I don't know why I'm laughing because it's a serious matter for many people.

Andy Byron, shown there on the big screen, embracing an employee before both of them quickly hid from view. Now, Astronomer has released a

statement.

[15:50:00]

It says, "Astronomer is committed to the values and culture that have guided us since our founding. Our leaders are expected to set the standard

in both conduct and accountability. The board of directors has initiated a formal investigation into this matter, and will have additional details to

share very shortly."

The statement also says that no other employees were in the video, and confirmed that Byron has not put out any kind of statement on the matter

himself, but it appears an investigation has started.

We'll come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: While the golfing world is focused on the British open in Northern Ireland, a significantly cooler tournament taking place recently, 19

players from across the world swapped fairways and greens for ice to compete in the inaugural north pole clock golf championship the modified

game saw competitors putt from numbered points arranged like a round clock face -- facing towards a single central hole. Not the best greens.

It looks like Santa Claus on that theme, may have to put his sled in storage for now. Certainly won't be playing ice golf. Theres no snow in the

official hometown of Father Christmas in Finland. The area is actually experiencing a heat wave, would you believe?

CNN's Allison Chinchar reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALLISON CHINCHAR, CNN METEOROLOGIST (voice-over): Santa's helpers are trading snow for swelter in Finland as temperatures in the northern town of

Rovaniemi, the official hometown of Santa Claus on the Arctic Circle, are reaching over 30 degrees Celsius, or 86 degrees Fahrenheit.

And the Finns are soaking up the rare hot weather.

TOLVO KOIVU, ROVANIEMI RESIDENT AND DJ: It's pretty good. I like it. It's hot. I don't think it's this hot too often here.

CHINCHAR: Summer temperatures typically fall around 20 degrees Celsius or 68 degrees Fahrenheit in northern Finland, but this warmer weather is only

becoming more common, and even rivaling parts of mainland Europe.

KOIVU: I was on vacation for a few weeks, going down through Europe with the interrail, with a few of my buddies and it was very hot.

[15:55:01]

And we thought that when we would come back to Finland, it would be cooler like normally. But no, it's actually the same weather as down south.

CHINCHAR: It might be time for Santa to retire his sleigh and pull out a floatie instead.

Allison Chinchar, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: Finally, an indigenous dog breed in India getting a national bit of attention for its new and growing role in the nation's security forces.

This is Haofa, a breed, often compared to a bear. Guess why?

Sturdy frame, bluish black coat. Long muzzle, powerful jaws. They're known for their sharp hunting instincts and loyalty. India's paramilitary forces

are now training the dogs. The number of purebred, Haofa, far has declined in recent decades. Now you know.

I'm Max Foster. That's WHAT WE KNOW.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" up next.

END

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