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What We Know with Max Foster
Trump Says He Fired Fed's Lisa Cook, She Says She'll Fight It; Trump Administration To Seek Death Penalty In D.C. Murder Cases; Protests Across Israel Demanding Ceasefire-Hostage Deal; Taylor Swift And Travis Kelce Announce Engagement; Trump Calls City Of Baltimore A "Hell Hole"; U.S. Naval Fleet Heads For Venezuela Amid Rising Tensions. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired August 26, 2025 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:21]
MAX FOSTER, CNN HOST: Donald Trump tries to fire a Fed governor and Taylor Swift is engaged.
I'm Max Foster. This is WHAT WE KNOW.
For the first time ever, a U.S. president has fired the Federal Reserve governor. But Lisa Cook, the first Black woman to sit on the board, says
Donald Trump doesn't have the authority to force her out, and she's refusing to go. The president is citing unproven allegations of mortgage
fraud, and so far, Cook hasn't been charged. The move dramatically escalates the presidents battle with the Central Bank, which he's blamed
for taking too long to lower interest rates.
Trump spoke on Cook just a short while ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: She seems to have had an infraction and she can't have an infraction, especially that infraction,
because she's in charge of if you think about it, mortgages. And we need people that are 100 percent above board. And it doesn't seem like she was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: So what you want to know? Does Donald Trump have a valid reason to remove Lisa Cook?
Joining me now Richard Quest.
Lots of people saying not because she hasn't actually been convicted yet.
RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR-AT-LARGE: Note what he just said. Infraction. Didn't say she committed a crime. Didn't say that it was a
felony. He used the word infraction, which is a much lower level.
And that will count against him, by the way. Look, Donald Trump does have the legal authority to remove a Fed governor for cause. Now, cause is
generally defined as being gross misconduct. It hasn't been defined in this case. And the gross misconduct usually relates to something in your job
that you're doing, Fed governor.
But this is about something to do with her mortgages. And there's no question that she may not have done it anyway. I mean, the whole thing is
this is the weakest read upon which to try and rest anything upon.
FOSTER: It's an interesting test case, though, isn't it, for the independence of the bank.
QUEST: I think it's a fascinating test case because, remember, Donald Trump is trying to bend the will of the central bank. I don't think it's
just about interest rates. I really don't. They're coming down anyway. This is about just bending an institution to his will.
What's more worrying if that could be is what Scott Bessent, the treasury secretary, just said at a cabinet meeting, at that cabinet meeting. You may
-- would you mind if I just look down at my notes and refer to what he just said?
Scott Bessent said, are you ready for this? We're talking about the independence of the world's biggest central bank, the Federal Reserve's
independence comes from a political arrangement between itself and the American people. Now, there are a couple of rubrics in treasury speak.
The first is when asked about foreign exchange, you say a strong dollar is in the best interest of the United States. The second is when asked about
interest rates or the Fed. You say the Fed is independent.
He didn't say that. He did not say the fed is independent. They are playing Jenga with the Fed's independence.
FOSTER: There are people saying though you should. Also, if we look at this sort of impartially, the Fed should be accountable to someone. And if
its not to the president, who is it?
QUEST: Yes, they are accountable. They're accountable to Congress.
FOSTER: The Congress can fire governors?
QUEST: But we know there's an impeachment process. There's a way in which they can be removed through, in this case. Of course, there's ways they
could do it. The chair of the Fed has to go before Congress two or three times a year.
But what Donald Trump is doing is taking the weakest excuse, arguably. Look, let me put it another way, Max. This has never happened in the 111-
year history of the Fed. Therefore, if you're going to do it, you would have thought you'd have done it on the strongest case with the strongest
facts, where you're going to get bipartisan support and you're going.
No. He's chosen the weakest case with the weakest facts, where there's going to be unbridled disagreement and questioning of the Fed's
independence because people say he just wants to put his own person in.
FOSTER: A big debate on your show in the next hour. Well, thank you, Nick. Nick. Richard.
QUEST: What --
FOSTER: Called you Nick.
QUEST: Can I talk about it --
FOSTER: In no reason, whatsoever. Richard, thank you so much.
The Trump administration now plans to seek the death penalty for murder cases in Washington.
[15:05:01]
Here's what the president had to say about that in today's cabinet meeting that Richard was talking about.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Anybody murder something in the capital -- capital punishment. Capital. Capital punishment. If somebody kills somebody in the capital,
Washington, D.C., we're going to be seeking the death penalty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: This marks Trump's latest escalation in his crime crackdown. On Monday, he signed an executive order calling for specialized National Guard
units to deal with what he calls public order and other issues.
Let's go straight to Kevin Liptak. He's not letting this go, Nick. Nick -- I've done it again. Kevin.
KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: No, I don't think he is. And it is clear, I think, that the president is continuing to try and exert
his authority over Washington, D.C., but you can see how he is sort of laying the groundwork to expand that to other parts of the country, namely
Democrat-run cities around the entire country, whether it's Chicago, whether it's Baltimore, which in that cabinet meeting today, he called a
hellhole all places that seem to be on his radar to potentially replicate what he's doing here in the nation's capital when it comes to federalizing
law enforcement, when it comes to using the National Guard for domestic purposes and trying to use them in all of these places.
Now, when it comes to the death penalty. He does have a unique situation in Washington because as a locality, Washington has actually banned the death
penalty. But because of its unique status as a federal district, prosecutors here try murder cases both in the D.C. superior court but also
in federal court and the federal death penalty remains on the books, although it hasn't been used in quite some time.
And so how the president goes about this isn't precisely clear. I think when you talk to a lot of lawyers, they say it would be very difficult to
seat a jury in Washington that would approve the death penalty. They have also pointed out that a federal death penalty case hasn't been heard in
Washington, D.C., in more than two decades. And so how the president goes about that? Not precisely clear. Not every murder in Washington is a
federal -- is a federal case.
And so, I think the details of that remain a little vague. But clearly the president trying to sort of expand what he's doing when it comes to law
enforcement and really sort of exerting his bid here. And I think in the cabinet meeting today, the president sort of laid out most explicitly where
he sees this going.
He said that he thought that crime would be the biggest issue of next year's midterm elections, but also of the 2028 presidential election. So
really kind of laying out his cards about how he views this through a political lens. And it is evident that the president is trying to use this
to go after primarily Democrats, whether it's Governor Pritzker in Illinois, whether it's the governor of Maryland or Baltimore, is Wes Moore.
Each of these individuals who the president has singled out as weak on crime and trying to use his own efforts as a counterexample. You clearly
see how the president sees this as a winning political issue, and one that he doesn't seem to be showing any signs of letting up on anytime soon.
FOSTER: Okay, Kevin in Washington, thank you so much.
Now, frustration over the war in Gaza again, boiling over in Israel today, fueling nationwide protests. Crowds took to the streets and highways
blocking roadways and burning tires to call for a ceasefire and the return of hostages. Israeli police say the bulk of the mass demonstrations went on
without any unusual incidents during what protesters called the day of destruction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YEHUDA COHEN, FATHER OF ISRAELI HOSTAGE: And another day for protest, another day to make sure the issue of the hostages stays in high priority.
Another day to pressure Netanyahu and force him to end the war and get a hostage deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Well, sources tell CNN Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's security cabinet met today, but no major decisions were reached.
More now from CNN's Oren Liebermann in Tel Aviv.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF: Hostage Square here behind me is filling up incredibly quickly right now. On this Tuesday evening, what
organizers have called a day of disruption across the country. And we saw that start playing out early this morning. That's when protesters blocked
major highways across Israel. In some cases, they simply sat down or lay down on the streets. In at least one case, we saw protesters put themselves
in a cage as a symbolic way of referencing the hostages. Still in Gaza, 50 remain in Gaza, 20 of whom are still believed to be alive.
In other cases, Israeli protesters set fire to tires to block roads. And although police say that the roads were cleared fairly quickly, we still
saw major highways blocked throughout the course of the day. It all culminates in what you're seeing here behind me hundreds, if not thousands,
already packing Hostage Square in Tel Aviv and more are already on their way from a march from one of the main train stations to fill this up even
more.
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And you get a sense, especially on a Tuesday night, of the anger and the frustration of these protesters calling on the government to accept the
deal that's on the table, and to do everything in their power to bring home the remaining hostages. There was, in fact, an Israeli security cabinet
meeting on Tuesday afternoon, but there were no substantive decisions made over the course of that two-hour meeting. And the latest ceasefire proposal
on the table, 60-day ceasefire wasn't even on the agenda.
That in and of itself has fueled a lot of the anger we're hearing -- hearing here from protesters. Even after nearly two years of war. They see
it as an obligation to come out here to make sure the 50 hostages remaining in Gaza are not forgotten, and that they do whatever it is that they can to
pressure the government to accept the deal that's there right now, one that is very similar to what Israel had already accepted a month ago before
those talks fell apart.
One last key point here from Hostages Square. A lot of people here believe it is President Donald Trump, and perhaps only Trump, who can put pressure
on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to get to a deal and to bring home the hostages. And that is where they see a lot of the hope and a lot of the
focus of their efforts.
Oren Liebermann, CNN, in Tel Aviv.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOSTER: Now, nearly a week after Hamas agreed to a ceasefire plan from Qatari and Egyptian mediators, Israel has yet to respond to the proposal.
One protest leader believes one man is standing in the way of peace.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMI DROR, ISRAELI ANTI-GOVERNMENT PROTEST LEADER: Sadly, it's a political war. It's a -- it's a political war that the main goal of this war is to
keep Netanyahu in his office. He fears his coalition more than anybody else. He fears the coalition more than -- more than the families, more than
the protesters. And as I said, every poll show it.
I do believe that with the pressure that will come from the people of Israel stopping the country, plus with the pressure that should come from
the rest of the world, demanding the immediate end of the war from Prime Minister Netanyahu, I believe if all those things happen together, yes, the
war can end now. I do believe that President Trump, if he wanted to, he could have stopped the war today exactly as he did with the Israeli bombers
on the way to Iran.
It's on his ship and it's on Netanyahu's shift, but both of them, they don't really care about the people or about the hostages, and they need to
make the right choice and simply demand some simple things that everybody, like 80 percent of us demand. Definitely, most of the people in Gaza demand
the same thing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOSTER: Now, in another world, it's a love story, baby. And she said yes. Taylor Swift has just announced her engagement to Travis Kelce. The
billionaire singer and her fiance made the announcement on their respective Instagram accounts just a short while ago. Look at that, writing your
English teacher and your gym teacher are getting married. Swift and the Kansas City Chiefs star started dating back in 2023, in case you didn't
know.
To discuss one of the most anticipated engagements between a couple. Actually. Was it anticipated? That's the question. Let's bring in
entertainment journalist Segun Oduolowu. He joins us from L.A.
Thank you so much for joining us.
I mean, it feels like it was a surprise. Was it?
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: It really wasn't, Max. You know, when you think of Taylor Swift, there is nothing that she does that is not
calculated, respect it or revile it. She is very deliberate with how she moves.
And to her, the music has always been first. When we think about it, she drops an album, it breaks the Internet. She does it on his podcast and they
are allowed to have commentary and jokes.
This very private, personal engagement. There are no comments allowed on their social media. They do a joint post. It's already has 13 million likes
but no comments, which is an interesting thing.
They don't care what people think. I knew that this was going to happen. I had told people, look, this is the perfect step -- you know, stepping
stone, release an album, get engaged. She's in her 30s.
And let's see now if true love wins in the music, will we hear lyrics that speak to this love?
FOSTER: That's what I'm interested in because I'm a big fan of Taylor Swift was saying that so many of her songs were about breakups. She's
famous because of the way she speaks to breakups. She can't do that anymore, can she?
ODUOLOWU: No, listen, it's not just famous, it's a cottage industry of "I date somebody, I break up with them. I then write a complete album saying
how much of a jerk this guy was". Either to me or is in general, and her fans from 15 to 55 have been eating it up.
Now there's love, there's happiness, and she's dating someone that plays America's pastime.
[15:15:01]
Sorry, baseball. Football is king.
And now Taylor and Travis together, it's a -- it's our version now of a royal couple. We don't have royalty here in the states. One thing we do
have is celebrity. And we fawn over it.
And the biggest international pop star dating a handsome football hero, this is -- this is made for TV. This is made for gossip. This is made for
social media.
This is made for us. It's made for you and me, Max.
FOSTER: It is huge. I mean, I can't deny that, but -- so what are they going to give us with the wedding? You say this post was private, having a
photographer at your engagement and posting it.
Some people might not say, is that private? But as you say, it could have been much more exposed, couldn't it, than the way they've done it.
But, what sort of wedding do you think they'll allow in terms of publicity? Will it be a small family event because they are very close to their
family, aren't they? Or will it be the, you know, the wedding that everyone around the world really wants to see? You know, that big royal wedding, as
you're describing?
ODUOLOWU: I think it will be big in private if we can imagine that. So you\re 100 percent correct hiring a photographer for these absolutely
staged photographs. But again, they do it in their own way. It's released on their social media, I think, because of who they are, because Travis is
rather public with his podcast. He's well known. He's got teammates. I think there will be NDAs and gag orders and who can come and that guest
list for the Taylor Swift wedding will be the hottest ticket wherever they decide to get married.
But I don't think it's going to be a small ceremony. I don't think it can't. They have too many high-powered friends that are going to want to
share. They might shut down an island. I mean, she is a billionaire. She could shut down an island and just have it there with only a few
photographs for the aftermath. But if we saw anything with Bezos wedding, this one is going to be talked about just as much.
FOSTER: Could be Europe, couldn't it? She's a fan of London.
ODUOLOWU: Could be. Yeah, could be. But you know, they're both. But they're so Americana with the way her music is him playing football, I
think a beautiful place here in the United States makes more sense. And I think you're going to see the guest list start to roll out, right? Because
who doesn't want to go see Taylor Swift walk down the aisle?
And who doesn't want to kind of pat Travis Kelce on the back and say, hey man. Like how'd you do that? Like how'd you go from catching footballs to
catching the biggest star in music.
FOSTER: You're going to be super busy. Doing interviews like this for however long this engagement lasts.
Segun, really appreciate you. Really, it's brilliant. Thank you so much.
Now coming up, President Trump's battle with another state governor as the feud heats up with Illinois. The president picks a new fight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:21:03]
FOSTER: U.S. President Donald Trump has ratcheted up his feud with another Democratic state governor. Maryland's Wes Moore offered President Trump a
chance to see firsthand efforts to curb crime in the city of Baltimore. Here's the president's response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I want to work with you, too, someday. But first, you got to clean up your crime, because I'm not walking -- I'm not walking in Baltimore
right now. Baltimore is a hellhole.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Well, the war of words also continues between Trump and Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker. Their feud is centered on White House threats to
send National Guard troops to Chicago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I'm willing to go to Chicago, which is a big trouble. But we have a governor that refuses to admit he has problems, huge problems.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Whitney Wild is in Chicago.
It sounds when you listen to the president there that there's something that the governor can do to prevent the troops going there. How do you
understand it, Whitney?
WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: There's limited options at this point. This was a big question at the press conference that
Governor J.B. Pritzker and the Illinois attorney general had, you know, what can you do to stop this? And the reality is, and this is true, when
you talk to people at all levels of government here, they acknowledge that there's nothing that they can do at this point to stop it.
What they can do is when they feel like there has been an action, you know, National Guard actually comes here. That's when they may have a solid
enough case to go to the courts and say, now something has happened, we can actually file an injunction, but preemptively, there's very little they can
do. They know that. They're acknowledging it, you know, obliquely, but, you know, but they're acknowledging it.
And so, the question becomes, what is going to be, you know, what is going to support their case? And so, the legal questions that they're trying to
deal with are, is it legal for, let's say, surrounding states, Indiana, Missouri, Republican led states, can they have their National Guard go into
a non-consenting state like Illinois? Those are some of the questions that, from a legal perspective, they're working through.
But, Max, I think it's important to point out there is a mix of reaction here in Chicago. It is not as simple as saying everybody in Chicago is
strongly against this. I spoke with one woman who said, despite the fact that crime has dropped here in every major crime category, for the most
part, the city does not feel safer. She said that she welcomes the National Guard. She thought it would send a strong message that crime will not be
tolerated because, she says, at the core of the problem here in Chicago, she feels, is that crime is normalized.
However, there are other people who are on the complete other side of this who say that the National Guard is not the answer, that this is an
insincere effort. It is not actually meant to curb crime, but instead is meant to exert control. Some of the people who spoke out against it today
include gun violence victims, survivors who are saying that this is not the answer again, that this is just a way to intimidate. It is just a way to
exert control, and it actually will do nothing to stop crime here in Chicago.
But again, this is really -- the effort to try to stop it is falling squarely on the shoulders of the leaders at the highest levels here in
Illinois.
So, let's hear for a moment from Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. J.B. PRITZKER (D), ILLINOIS: Find a family who's enjoying today sitting on their front porch and ask if they want their neighborhoods
turned into a war zone by a wannabe dictator. This is not about fighting crime. This is about Donald Trump searching for any justification to deploy
the military in a blue city, in a blue state, to try and intimidate his political rivals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILD: What is very clear, Max, is that there is no communication at this point between the White House and leaders here in Illinois. They were asked
repeatedly if they have spoken with anybody at the federal level. They insist that no one from the federal government, no one from the Pentagon,
no one from the White House has reached out to the leaders here in Illinois. I asked, well, have you reached out to them? Is there any line of
communication? And they said, absolutely not.
[15:25:00]
J.B. Pritzker told me in that press conference he has not reached out to the White House simply, Max, because he feels like there's no reason to do
so.
And I'll leave you with this. The final theory here among Illinois leaders is that they just do not believe that there is any kind of emergency that
would warrant National Guard response -- Max.
FOSTER: Whitney, thank you, joining us from Chicago.
Now, as tensions with the U.S. continue to rise, thousands of Venezuelans are heeding President Maduro's call to join the country's military. In
response, the U.S. is mobilizing its own forces, sending a wave of naval assets towards Venezuela's coastline.
CNN's Patrick Oppmann has the latest.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PATRICK OPPMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As a small armada of U.S. Navy ships heads towards Venezuela, the most significant escalation of
tensions between the two countries in years.
Embattled Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro says he's preparing for an invasion. Maduro is activating his national militia and imploring regular
citizens to enlist to fight off a potential U.S. attack. And Maduro is not letting a crisis go to waste, whipping up support in a country exhausted by
years of economic decline and political strife.
NICOLAS MADURO, VENEZUELAN PRESIDENT (through translator): I am enlisting because I love my homeland. Join with your family, join with your
community, enlist and join the ranks. Long live Venezuela.
OPPMANN: Thousands sign up over the weekend, vowing to keep Maduro in power.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): We defend our people, and we, one way or another, are going to defend ourselves.
OPPMANN: But even as he claims to have more than 4 million soldiers, police, and militia members ready to do battle, Maduro may be outgunned.
The Trump administration has sent at least three U.S. Navy destroyers, a submarine, attack aircraft, and 4000 Marines to stem the flow of drugs to
the U.S., which they say Maduro is responsible for.
PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: The DOJ has seized over $700 million of Maduro-linked assets, including two private jets, nine vehicles, and more.
Yet Maduro's reign of terror continues. He is one of the largest narco- traffickers in the world, and a threat to our national security.
OPPMANN: Maduro denies any role in drug trafficking, but he is under federal indictment in New York for allegedly running a shadowy cartel of
Army officers turned drug lords.
This month, the Trump administration doubled the price on Maduro's head to $50 million. But collecting that reward likely would require U.S. boots on
the ground. Venezuela is roughly 1-1/2 times the size of Texas, with dense jungles and sprawling slums controlled by heavily armed gangs.
Occupying the country would be a massive undertaking, and even more complicated if Maduro makes good on his promise to arm citizen militias.
Armed conflict may still be far from certain, but a showdown is brewing off the coast of Venezuela, with neither side appearing to back down.
Patrick Oppmann, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOSTER: Still to come, Israel's deadly attack on a Gaza hospital fueling condemnation across the globe. What the IDF now says was the target of
those strikes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:31:41]
FOSTER: More now on the nationwide day of protest in Israel, with crowds demanding that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu negotiate an end to the
war in Gaza and secure the release of the remaining hostages. Demonstrators blocked a number of major roadways, including the main highway between Tel
Aviv and Jerusalem in what was dubbed the day of struggle.
One protester told our Oren Liebermann rebuilding Israeli settlements in Gaza, an idea backed by some in the Netanyahu government would bring what
he calls total war to the region.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAIM WEISS, PROTESTER IN TEL AVIV: The prime minister is they are manipulated by very extreme ultra-orthodox people who have fantasies or
messianic fantasies about conquering Gaza and building settlements there. And they are using this horrific situation in order to promote their
agenda. That has nothing to do with the security of Israel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Israel's military says a camera being used by Hamas was the target of strikes on Nasser Hospital that killed 20 people, including journalists
and medical staff. The IDF claims Hamas positioned that camera to capture the movements of the Israeli military. It says six of the people killed
were terrorists. The attack has sparked global outrage and a call for accountability.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THAMEEN AL-KHEETAN, U.N. HUMAN RIGHTS SPOKESPERSON: The Israeli authorities have in the past announced investigations in such killings.
It's, of course, the responsibility of Israel as the occupying power to investigate. But these investigations need to yield results, there needs to
be justice. We haven't seen results. Or accountability measures yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Hurst Hannum is a professor emeritus of international law at Tufts University's Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy.
Thank you so much for joining us, Professor.
First, this information that we've had, we're obviously relying on what reports we can get and what reporting we can get from Gaza. And obviously,
journalists are dying, you know, including an instance like this. But we've just heard that a camera was the target.
What does that say to you as a lawyer in this situation?
HURST HANNUM, PROFESSOR, TUFTS UNIVERSITY: Well, in some ways, the admission by the government today that this was done deliberately, it
wasn't just a mistake in some ways does make it easier, but trying to figure out what a war crime is or a crime against humanity is very
difficult because it happens in a context where you can kill people. Soldiers can kill one another. Humanitarian law is based on the notion that
there has to be a distinction between the fighters, the military, and the noncombatants, the civilians.
But it also goes further because much of it was, in fact, drafted by military experts and military people. And it says that you can only harm
civilians if it's absolutely necessary to achieving a legitimate military goal. And therefore, there's a proportionality that is always at play.
[15:35:02]
Here, aiming at a camera at a -- in a hospital and killing -- even if we accept the Israeli view, and I wouldn't necessarily do so, that seven or
six so-called terrorists were killed, that means that a lot of civilians were killed, too. And it seems like to me an extreme use of force by simply
shelling the hospital to get this camera, not only once, but twice, and I think the burden of proving that this was proportional in the only way in
which Israel could deal with a threat to them, their IDF is farfetched at best.
FOSTER: Because there was targeting the camera and the proportionality of the attack, as you say. But there was this double tap as well, wasn't
there? So, as the rescue workers came in, there was a second hit. I mean, how, you know, well wait to see what the investigation says, but it's very
hard to explain, isn't it, when there was already an issue, as you say from a legal perspective, on the first hit?
HANNUM: Well, it is indeed. And even if it was somehow justified, even if it was just a mistake, it doesn't mean that it's not a war crime, that
there shouldn't be accountability. It's difficult to do, given the competence of the IDF, that you couldn't knock out a camera with weather
that was so important that you could try to knock it out, even though it was on the roof of a hospital, and you couldn't do that on the first try.
And so, you waited for ten minutes and then tried again at a time when you almost had to know that there would be more civilians, some racing to the
site where people were killed.
And it's just very difficult to justify -- if it's possible to deal -- to defend the first strike. It's almost impossible to defend the second
strike.
FOSTER: In terms of where this goes from here, who -- as you say, it's the occupying force that carries out the investigation. They then expected to
find themselves accountable. I mean, how does the process even work in this situation?
HANNUM: Well, the process, frankly, doesn't work very well in any country in the world. You're calling on a government at war in an armed conflict to
judge soldiers, many of whom have died already at the hands of their enemy. And to do this in an honest and open way, recognizing that if you start
saying that your soldiers have been committing war crimes right and left, it's going to be difficult for their morale as well as the morale of the
population.
None of that really matters because a crime is a crime, no matter what army is being committed by. But I think it's fair to say that the vast majority
of these investigations, not only by the Israelis, but by many other governments as well, have not been successful in bringing many guilty
people to account.
If I could offer you one quick example, the greatest war crime, perhaps in the Vietnam War in the United States in 1968 was when hundreds of people
were deliberately slaughtered by U.S. soldiers, in a village about 15 or 20 people were ultimately indicted. One person, one person out of all of those
who participated in the killing, was sent to jail, and he was pardoned after two or three years.
So, accountability is going to be extremely difficult. I think the only thing that works is to hold two or three people accountable very publicly,
and to let it be known that this sort of conduct will no longer be tolerated.
Unfortunately, I think the message that's been coming in from the Netanyahu government is exactly the opposite. That it almost seems anyone who's a
Palestinian is in Hamas. Anyone who's in a -- in Hamas is a terrorist. And therefore, anybody is free game.
FOSTER: Professor Hurst Hannum, appreciate your analysis today. Thank you for joining us.
Now, still to come, will A.I. really change the world anytime soon? We'll speak to one expert who has his doubts.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:43:01]
FOSTER: U.S. President Donald Trump is embracing the future of artificial intelligence. Earlier, he discussed his presidential A.I. challenge during
a cabinet meeting. He also touted an A.I. investment in the U.S. Back in July, he unveiled $92 billion in A.I. and energy commitments from private
companies including Google and Blackstone, just to name a few.
Here's what he said today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: This is the new Internet, the new computer, the new television, the new everything all put together in one. This is why when I show you a
picture like that, I mean, I show you this. This is a factory superimposed over the island of Manhattan, and you have many of them being built right
now all over the country, or soon to start.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Well, also, First Lady Melania Trump just hours ago, encouraging students and teachers to take part in that challenge.
What we want to know is will artificial intelligence really change the world?
Joining me now is technology writer and CEO of EZPR, Ed Zitron, who doesn't believe in the generative A.I. revolution, calling it a financial,
ecological and social time bomb.
Thank you so much for joining us.
I mean, one of the points you're making is that there's a lot of vested interest here in this narrative that it's going to take over because
there's a lot of money behind it, right?
ED ZITRON, CEO, EZPR: Yes. There's a lot of money behind it. Hundreds of billions of dollars put into data center, capital expenditures and GPUs
from Nvidia.
But very, very little revenue around $35 billion to $40 billion in total revenue in 2025, from all of the companies, OpenAI and Microsoft included.
And that is about how much smartwatches made in 2024. It's a disaster.
FOSTER: Are you describing a time bomb as in a financial time bomb or the creation of a technology that we can't control?
ZITRON: The former. The whole AGI narrative, the whole thing around this uncontrollable I think it's a farce. It's fiction. Artificial general
intelligence is a fictional concept peddled by liars like Sam Altman, who will happily pretend that their large language models, which are
probabilistic models that just guess what the most likely thing you want them to do, are somehow connected to autonomous intelligence.
[15:45:09]
Agents don't work. They don't exist. Marc Benioff similarly peddling lies around what agents can do. And when you actually look at the outcomes and
outputs of these models, they don't even begin to represent any kind of automation or really any meaningful innovation at all.
And when I said that revenue, I meant revenue, not profit. Everyone is losing money.
FOSTER: But they are, you know, there are A.I. models that are taking jobs, right? They're processing information in the way that humans do and
replacing them. So that is pretty revolutionary.
ZITRON: Not really. There's no one really replacing jobs. The study that came out of Stanford today that everyone's claiming is proof that A.I. is
replacing people, is actually a farce in and of itself. The study says that there is a 13 percent drop in certain careers that are affected by A.I.,
but when you look, they have no data. That actually proves that A.I. was involved.
One of the professions they choose, accountancy, actually has had a several year-long crisis of finding people to become accountants. The drop in those
numbers is nothing to do with A.I. The same with all of them. The same with coders.
You'll notice that none of these companies ever can really prove that anything is happening where workers are being replaced. Sadly, the people
being replaced are contract labors, laborers like art directors and SEO experts. And even then, we don't really know the scale.
These studies keep coming out that are just fudging the numbers, and it sucks. And it's not telling people the truth, which is that these models
are limited and lose a bunch of money.
FOSTER: But they're going in a certain direction, which will be the revolution. You know, we're just early in it. Isn't that the argument?
ZITRON: No. Well, I mean, that might be the argument, but there's no proof. And indeed, the head of A.I. at Meta said that large language models
are not going to lead us to LLM -- sorry, not going to lead LLMs to becoming AGI. We don't have any proof that AGI is possible.
We don't even have anything that can do the kind of autonomous labor that all of these companies have been selling these dreams on. It's all kind of
kayfabe. Everyone's just kind of pretending that somethings happening and nothings really been happening.
FOSTER: So, your concern is that this will be -- investors will realize this at some point. They're going to pull their money out. And because all
the big companies are so invested, there's going to be a crash. Is that what you're suggesting?
ZITRON: Yes, it's actually a little worse than that. So, Paul Kedrosky, an economist, came out with a piece a few weeks ago that said that A.I. data
center capex accounted for more of economic growth, GDP growth than all consumer spending combined. Worse still, most of that capital expenditures
was for companies. Microsoft, Google, Meta and Amazon.
Microsoft, here's the crazy thing the magnificent seven stocks. They make up 35 percent of the value of the stock market. And Nvidia 8 percent of it.
And then the real, real pain point here is that 42 percent of Nvidia's revenue comes from the magnificent seven. What happens when Nvidia slows
down? Everything slows down our economy, our markets.
And I think the moment that Nvidia slows, everything starts falling apart and everyone realizes there are no business returns here. No one's
replacing jobs. Not that that's anything to be excited about. And really nothing has happened other than burning a lot of money and making Sam
Altman richer.
FOSTER: And you said it very clearly. Appreciate you coming on the show. Appreciate your time. Thank you very much.
ZITRON: My pleasure.
FOSTER: Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:51:02]
FOSTER: A towering wall of dust known as haboob swallowed parts of Phoenix, Arizona, on Monday. Drivers were warned to pull aside to stay
alive, as some areas were plunged into zero visibility. The dust storm was quickly followed by severe thunderstorms at the Sky Harbor International
Airport. Planes were stopped from taking off or landing for about an hour.
The Burning Man Festival in nearby Nevada. Attendees wore face coverings while trying to secure tents, trying to fly loose in the storm.
Taylor Swift's real life love story has fans around the world speculating about wedding plans already. The pop star announced her engagement to NFL
star Travis Kelce with this picture on Instagram. Now, Swifties want to know where will they get married? Who will be on the guest list? When will
the wedding take place? What about the dress?
Here to break down the possibilities, pure speculation, I know, but David Tutera is here and he's the man to speculate for us because you are the
wedding planner extraordinaire. I mean, you know, you would have followed their narrative like everyone else is. What would you expect in terms of a
wedding, David?
DAVID TUTERA, CELEBRITY WEDDING PLANNER AND DESIGNER: I think that they are going to have a creative, beautiful, emotional experience, not just for
the two of them, but for all of their family and friends and for the globe, for the people that love the two of them as a couple.
So, I think this is going to be a moment in time where people are embracing the importance of feeling happy and excited, which is what always happens
with a wedding. But this is even a bigger moment. You know, America finally has its version of a royal wedding here.
FOSTER: Can you think of one that's been bigger in recent times?
TUTERA: I would think of. Were you stunned? Yes, yes, you got me here. I don't know.
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: It says it all, doesn't it? That's an interesting reaction.
TUTERA: The fact --
FOSTER: Yeah, yeah.
TUTERA: I'm stunned, actually, because -- go ahead.
FOSTER: Well, I'm just wondering if you could go back to Kate and William's wedding. Is it that far?
TUTERA: I was just about to say that because I worked on that project from a distance, but it was the biggest royal wedding that had happened until
now.
FOSTER: You said it was a global wedding. It's everyone's wedding. They are very public figures, aren't they? They really take their fan bases
seriously. And do you think then, that they will try to fold them in and make it relatively public, as opposed to making it entirely private?
Because, as you say, they've got this other side to them, which is very -- a very tight private family.
TUTERA: I would hope that their fans, the people that deeply care about them, do isolate them at some point and give them the opportunity to really
enjoy what that moment is. No wedding is between two people. So, I just hope that they have the opportunity that they can actually not just enjoy
the two of them, but also give those moments and those beautiful creations that maybe be executed.
And I think that that's really necessary, but yet still be in the public eye. That's a very balance that you have to create as a somebody in the
private eye. So, I'm excited to see what will happen.
FOSTER: Well, you could very well be the person hired to do it. I mean, where do you even start? Just looking at the photos. Look at the flowers.
TUTERA: Thank you. Yes. And she loves flowers, which is really phenomenal. And she loves, as I said earlier, storytelling. So, when you get a client
like this, if that, if that happens, which would be lovely.
But when you get a client that has a vision, the beauty for me and my team, we actually take that seriously.
[15:55:02]
So, we create the moment. But it's really an execution of the couple. Their heart, their moment in time. That creates a beautiful story that will go on
and on and on.
FOSTER: David Tutera, you may get the call. Thanks for joining us.
I mean, we're already talking about the wedding. They've only just announced their engagement, but it's going to be the talk, isn't it, for
months to come.
I'm Max Foster. That is WHAT WE KNOW.
"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.
END
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