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What We Know with Max Foster
Source: Conservative Activist Charlie Kirk Shot During Event in Utah; At Least 2 Student Shot at Denver-Area High School. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired September 10, 2025 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:03]
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: He says the attack on Charlie Kirk is disgusting, vile and reprehensible. In the United States of America, we must reject
political violence in every form.
Let's go back to the White House now and Kristen Holmes, because it's notable, as we just said, you know, he's been interviewed by Democrats and
Republicans. The weight that he carries and his voice within the conservative movement, especially among young people. He's someone who at
times has had the president's ear as well.
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Not just had the president's ear at times. I mean, he is incredibly close with President
Trump. They speak directly. He also is close with members, high level members of the administration. You see the vice president tweeting there,
he knows and speaks to Charlie Kirk.
If there -- if you are talking to people within the administration, they will tell you that Kirk is somebody who has the finger on the pulse of the
MAGA movement in a way that sometimes even the people in Washington do not. He has been such a force for President Trump, somebody that they relied on
at times that was even floated that he might join the administration.
And I was told during the transition that they actually believed that he was more powerful not being part of the administration because of the
following that he has, because of this unique ability, he has to reach these specific young voters. And one of the stories we did on the campaign
was how exactly they were doing this. And this was by reaching out to people who hadn't voted before, bringing them into the MAGA movement and
getting them to vote for President Trump.
So, it's not just as though this is an ally of the president. It's somebody who, again, has this enormous following that the president pays attention
to, who is close to who he listens to. We can recall that there have been issues when Charlie Kirk has brought to the president's attention that
people in the base were upset about. This is something we've reported on extensively.
So, this is, again, I just think it's really important to note here, while he's not a government official, while he is not a member of the
administration, he's essentially the closest thing you could get to that position without actually being in the government. He's influential in
Washington. He's influential in the Republican Party, and he certainly influential with President Trump and influential in the election in 2024
that brought President Trump to the White House.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Influential enough. We'll remember that Gavin Newsom himself interviewed Kirk in March, right? So, as we have seen,
especially young men going over to the ranks of Republicans, you even see efforts of Democrats trying to perhaps reach out to them. They do that by
talking at times, as we saw with Newsom, to Charlie Kirk.
I want to bring in Brian Stelter.
And, Brian, this was an event that was widely attended. So that means a lot of cameras and a lot of phones and a lot of witnesses and accounts. What
are you seeing?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: And from every indication we have so far, this was an appalling act of political violence, something very
specifically targeting Kirk, who was underneath a small tent in the middle of a college campus, a quad sort of environment surrounded by hundreds of
his fans and supporters, college students, maybe other people from around the community who wanted to see him up close because he is such a
celebrity.
Look, I know Charlie personally. He is one of the most prominent, I would say the most successful MAGA media personality of his generation. He is
just 31 years old. He's a little bit like a new era Rush Limbaugh, you know, of the digital age.
But unlike someone like Rush, who hosted a radio show at his home, Kirk is out and about. He's known for doing these public events, as David Chalian
and others have mentioned on here in the last few minutes, one of the appeals of Charlie Kirk is his accessibility that he's on the road, that
he's on campus, that he holds these events and that he also debates strangers and opponents.
Now, at this particular event, there were hundreds of his fans gathered around. And then there were also some protesters who were holding up signs
against fascism that were much further away. So, in these online videos, from what we've seen so far, a beautiful day is suddenly shattered by a
single gunshot. And that's about all we know so far.
SANCHEZ: David, dovetailing off Brian's point about Kirk being something like a modern day Rush Limbaugh, he is not without controversy. He's taken
a lot of controversial positions when it comes to the culture war. It's part of his brand.
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF & POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yeah. In fact, that's why Gavin Newsom, a Democrat who's thinking about running for
president in 2028 and governor of California, wanted him on his podcast because part when Gavin Newsom launched it, he was talking to, some
conservative movement activists and leaders to try to explore in the aftermath of the 2024 election. What did Democrats miss here? And to push
back like it was also to, like, bring attention to some of the controversies that you describe.
I believe -- I might be wrong, but I believe when Gavin Newsom also sort of came out, against, trans women playing in men's sports, something that, you
know, is a political issue that has been driven into politics. And he got a lot of backlash from a party. I believe he was discussing that with Charlie
Kirk on the podcast.
I do want to just say one other thing that Brian said and what you said about his love of the debate. I mean, that's also what Charlie said on that
Newsom podcast about, like, why he was willing to accept that invitation and eager to do Charlie Kirk could debate endlessly. He mastered his brief
again. Obviously, not everyone agreed with him. He -- a conservative media star here, but he would debate for hours on end with people in the belief
of his argument.
And he even said on the video from this event at Utah Valley University, at the start of the event, he sits in the chair in that tent and he says, I'm
going to be here for a couple of hours now. And, you know, I don't know how long after that the shots rang out. But he was sort of setting up the
framework of what -- of what the event would, would look like there.
One other thing I would note about Charlie Kirk in recent weeks and months, Kirsten was talking about how influential, how he has the ear of everyone
from the president on down and that administration. There were two times this summer where he kind of broke with Trump, and it was a big headline
driving event, just in that.
I mean, one was when the Iran strikes occurred, when the U.S. worked with Israel and was taking out Iran's nuclear capabilities or attempting to do
so. He said, this is creating a massive chasm in the MAGA movement. He identified that he understood that. That\s what it was about having the
pulse on it.
And then with Epstein, he was at first quite wanting to spend time on exploring why there wasn't more transparency. And after Donald Trump
indicated he was ready to move on, Charlie Kirk was like, I'm done talking about Epstein. He got some blowback from that. Again, getting the pulse of
the movement that there were folks he was following, so he actually did continue to talk about the Epstein affair even after that moment.
But you can see he on a couple of high-profile occasions just this summer where he wasn't completely singing from the songbook and what he was doing
was, I think, providing information that there were some rifts within the MAGA movement that Donald Trump should be aware of.
KEILAR: And just to note, President Trump on truth social has posted here, we must all pray for Charlie Kirk, who has been shot, a great guy from top
to bottom. God bless him.
And I mean at the heart of this is a human being, a man who, by the way, has two small kids. We should just note. So his family is going through
this as they are trying to figure out, how he's doing. And we are trying to figure that out as well.
Let's go to CNN chief law enforcement analyst John Miller.
This is -- we've seen -- it feels time and again here. John, this violence in politics playing out. This feels different. This is a conservative
activist. And I just wonder what you can tell us and what you're learning from your sources about this.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, it's coming together a bit at a time. There is obviously been the shooting.
It appears he was shot in the neck or near the neck.
An individual is in custody. It appears that that person may have been grabbed by people in the crowd and held for police. We are still looking
into an identity on that person. And their background. And it's going to be a little bit through the fog of this event.
But as was pointed out here, there are videos purported to be of the shooting on social media that were working to verify, obviously. But a lot
of witnesses, hundreds and hundreds of witnesses, there's a large crowd there when the shooting happens. Many of them are recording it.
So, I think we're going to end up seeing a good deal of imagery about what happened in a relatively short time. But as has been discussed, we don't
have a lot of information on his condition, but it does fit into this pattern of individuals with grievances, disagreements, showing up and
taking this kind of violent action.
And you can -- you can pull out the file, whether it was Luigi Mangione stalking and killing the head of UnitedHealthcare or an individual creating
a massive car bomb to blow himself up, and a fertility clinic in California, or any of these other targeted acts of violence.
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We saw the individual with Molotov cocktails attacking, protesters in protesting in support of the Israeli hostages in Boulder, Colorado. Or the
individual who showed up posing as a police officer to shoot elected officials in Minnesota and all of that that we're talking about in these
recent incidents are now packed pretty tightly together, where were seeing one of these things unfold literally every two weeks at this point. So,
this is of really serious concern. And it obviously goes across the political spectrum.
SANCHEZ: And, John, talk to us about the challenges of securing an event like the one that Kirk was hosting, in part because he's obviously a
controversial figure, and he has these debates where a large crowd is in close proximity. But there is a notable time and place that anyone out
there who may have animosity and the twisted urge to do something like this, they would know exactly where he is so that that I imagine, for Kirk
and his team, presents challenges.
MILLER: Well, it does, and we've seen this in the past with other controversial speakers, particularly on college campuses. And, you know,
most college campuses of this size have their own police departments and their own security. But what we're looking at in this case is you have a
large open air outdoor event, you know, it's an event that probably has little or no screening.
And, you know, when you go from one state to another the laws and the rules, rules by venue, laws by state about who can carry a weapon in what
circumstances and what kind of places get more open or looser, you know, as you go west.
So, it is possible and will dive into this in a couple of minutes and get the solid answers, but it's possible that anybody could have shown up for
the event. Don't know if it was ticketed or not, but it appears to be a large, open outdoor area. And that absent any screening might have been
able to show up with a weapon.
This -- these are -- these are obviously not answers I'm giving you. What I'm doing is framing the questions we're going to have to go through.
SANCHEZ: Yeah.
KEILAR: And we are joined actually we have some new video. So, we are going to watch that. Now, here it is.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
SANCHEZ: This appears to be a moments after shots rang out. And you can see a large crowd gathered there at this university in Utah. Folks running
away from the scene. This is one of many videos circulating online right now that we are working to confirm.
But as John was saying, I mean, the challenge of securing a wide open campus, what appears to be a courtyard there with a number of tents for
officials, or rather for students and attendees to participate in the event? No shortage of issues trying to secure a place like that.
KEILAR: No, certainly not.
And let's go to Donie O'Sullivan, who has been to a number of these events. He's joining us now on the phone.
Donie, we just saw some of the aftermath in that video. People running away. An incredibly scary situation for so many people there.
Talk to us a little bit about these events. The kind of security they do or do not have, and what it's like to be there.
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Hey, Brianna. Yeah. I mean, I think what you're seeing on your screen now is really
normally sums up what these events look like. I mean, minus the chaos, of course, but always very big turnouts on college campuses. Charlie Kirk has
been doing this for a number of years. His organization, Turning Point USA, has been running these kind of events, hundreds of them, potentially
thousands of them across universities. Really mobilizing the young conservative vote. And in recent years, of course, specifically the young
MAGA vote.
We were actually down a few weeks ago in Tampa, Florida, where Turning Point USA had their summit, and we spoke to some liberal groups, young
Democrats, who are actually trying to emulate the work Charlie Kirk's organization is doing. These Democrats were, of course, very critical of
Kirk's policies and his views on politics, but spoke frankly, very, complimentary of his organizing tactics.
So, what you see at these events, these college campus events, has really been a successful model for mobilizing young voters.
[15:15:06]
In fact, in just recent weeks, Kirk got the "South Park" treatment. The characters on "South Park" spoke about these events and mimicked Kirk's
events. Where at these events, I should say it's basically -- it's a -- it's a chance for college campus students to directly debate Kirk.
And so, he will stand there and I think we see some videos coming from the scene today where, you know, normally he is sat under a small tent, has a
microphone, and there's a microphone set up elsewhere, just a few feet away on the campus, where and people come up to the mic sort of like a hot mic
situation, or an open mic situation, I should say. And they get to debate Kirk.
And normally, massive crowds, as we saw massive crowds, really, all of his events across the country.
SANCHEZ: Donie, please stand by.
We do have some video we want to share with you of Kirk just before the events of this afternoon transpired. And he was shot. You see him there
inside the tent, a typical setup of these events where he debates members of the crowd as he makes remarks.
We're joined now by Emma Pitts and Eva Terry. They are reporters for Deseret News. And they witnessed the shooting.
First, Emma, tell us what you saw.
EMMA PITTS, REPORTER, DESERET NEWS (via telephone): So, I mean, we were about 10 minutes into the interview and four people in front of us, we just
see -- we hear the gunshot, and then you see Charlie go limp. His neck kind of turned, and we saw blood immediately.
KEILAR: And could you get a sense, Emma, of his injuries and what happened after that?
PITTS: Both of our perspectives were that he was shot in the neck. To be perfectly blunt, it seemed like it felt like so much blood came out of his
neck immediately. And then we all took to the ground. I can't tell you almost what happened immediately after.
SANCHEZ: Wow. If you could, Eva, describe for us what the scene was like before all of that transpired, who -- what was the makeup of the crowd?
What were folks there to see?
EVA TERRY, REPORTER, DESERET NEWS (via telephone): So we had been -- we had been there for about an hour before, and we were just interviewing
people on the ground. And it was a really happy, excited atmosphere. We talked to some girls who were just there, freshman. They were excited to be
around other conservatives.
And then the question leading up to it, a kid came up and he asked a question about, how many transgender shooters there were, and Charlie gave
him another comment. And then he asked one more question, and so the question was about shooters. And before Charlie Kirk could pick up the mic
again, that's when the shot happened.
KEILAR: And, Eva, could you see the shooter, could you see where the shots were coming from? Can you describe for us what happened after if you could
see the aid that was rendered to Charlie Kirk?
TERRY: So, Emma and I dropped to the ground, so we didn't see with our own eyes. Charlie hit the ground. We saw him fall. But it looked like the shot
came and it hit. He was facing us, and it looked like it hit the left side of his neck. And so where we were, though, it's interesting, it's kind of
like a stadium. So it was a big bowl. It was a big bowl, so it's totally normal. His platform was just sitting on the side of the pavement and
everyone's at eye level with him.
But with this, he was more down lower. And then everyone was around him and like this bowl. We saw videos of from other people who saw the aftermath
and didn't run immediately out because we ran straight away. But it looked like it was an older gentleman wearing a uniform, who was taken away from
the -- put in custody pretty much right afterwards, the man in his 50s or 60s.
SANCHEZ: And just to be clear, Emma, you're saying that you saw that through a video because you ran off from the scene. You didn't actually see
the man being taken into custody yourself?
PITTS: We didn't -- we didn't actually see the man about ten minutes ago for about 30 minutes after this all happened. I want to say we found the
people that we had originally interviewed with that we're super happy to be there and excited, and they had recorded it. And so, they were showing us
from their phones. Right.
SANCHEZ: Okay. So you saw videos from people that you had actually talked to ahead of time, who had recorded it themselves. What else did they tell
you?
PITTS: I mean, nothing really from any of them. I think everyone is still here is so much shocked. The university has been completely evacuated, so
the only people left in the building at first hand.
[15:20:06]
TERRY: We have heard reports that Charlie Kirk is stable and breathing. That was a couple maybe 10, 15 minutes ago.
PITTS: But again, it's not confirmed.
TERRY: Yeah, it's not confirmed.
SANCHEZ: We are -- we are still working to determine how he is doing. I wonder what was security like when you were walking in, Emma? Did -- were
there metal detectors? Was there any kind of checkpoint that you had to come across where you had to sort of empty your pockets or anything like
that?
PITTS: No, honestly, not at all. And I thought that was one. And I thought, you know, public setting and I think for everyone (INAUDIBLE).
That could potentially happen. We had tickets, general admission tickets, but they weren't scanned.
TERRY: I didn't see a single person scanning tickets.
PITTS: And then, honestly, I didn't notice security until they were the men that were paid there to be there for Charlie Kirk. I saw a few police
officers behind the register for that, but other than that, I didn't see any police officers.
KEILAR: Emma, how stunned are people that this happened there? I mean, there was controversy that he was coming for some people, but there were a
ton of supporters there who were very excited that he was there as well. What are -- what are people saying about just how surprised they are about
what's happened?
PITTS: Yeah. I mean, beforehand, people were so excited, like we had said, we spoke to so many freshmen who were just happy to have to come and have
their political ideas represented. But there were only a couple of protesters who were there and they were in the balcony.
And they made a point about it. He said, look up there. There's -- there wasn't that many. There was probably about 3 or 4 posters. There's one
pride flag. But other than that, and then there were a few protesters. There were a few protesters down around him. But again, like, I feel like
it wasn't heavily protested.
TERRY: No, it wasn't.
SANCHEZ: Emma Pitts and Eva Terry, reporters for the Deseret News. Thank you so much for sharing your stories with us. We appreciate your time.
PITTS: Thank you.
TERRY: Thank you so much.
SANCHEZ: Let's bring in Shermichael Singleton into the conversation now.
Shermichael, just your reaction to today's tragic events, Charlie Kirk being shot at this University in Utah.
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, truly, unbelievable. Boris, I met Charlie maybe six or seven years ago. It was
Charlie, Candace Owens and Brandon Tatum. And it was when Candace was trying to start the Blexit movement of targeting young African Americans
who might be conservative or at least conservative curious and a mentor of mine at the time, the three of them came to meet with him to ask for
support. They were just trying to raise money for the movement.
And I thought he was a pretty impressive guy. When you think about it from an electoral perspective what he's been able to do with Turning Point USA
was something that Republicans have been trying to do for a long time, and that is to shift sort of the cultural conversation to the right in an
effort to target and ultimately appease and convert younger voters to Republican voters. And so, to see this, a guy who is dedicated to his wife,
a very, very young father -- man, this is this is tragic. I mean, I just couldn't believe what I saw.
And whether you agree with his politics or not, one can't take away the uniqueness of his skills in the political context. And he certainly was one
of the most skillful tacticians, politically speaking, that I certainly have ever seen. And arguably that the Republican Party has ever seen as it
pertains to his ability to mobilize younger people.
One needs to look merely to the most recent presidential election to see how younger people slowly moved over to the right was something that was
pretty unprecedented. So this is an unfortunate event, but man, I'm really praying for his wife and his young child and his family and all of the
people there who had to see this in real time.
KEILAR: Yeah, I mean, he has two very small children. And at the heart of this -- that is what -- that is at the heart of this. It's -- this is
terrible. And as we just heard, Shermichael, from those two reporters who were there on the scene, there's a lot of reason to be concerned here,
right? They saw what appeared to be some pretty serious injuries. And there's still a lot of questions, so we need to get those answered and see
how he's doing.
I do want to bring in John Miller and see if he is learning anything else.
John, we heard from some of those reporters who were there on scene. They were able to talk to some people who had videos that they had shot
themselves.
[15:25:03]
What are you learning?
MILLER: We're still looking at various videos. What you get from the videos is what appears to be the sound of a single gunshot. What you can't
tell from the videos that we've seen so far, and what we also don't have from either official statements or even law enforcement sources yet is, was
this a gunman who was at close range or was this, as we saw in the Pennsylvania attempted assassination of President Trump, an individual who
fired that single shot from a great distance?
Again, more questions than answers at this point, except that we do know that an individual believed to be that shooter, described as an older man,
is in custody. And we're also working to find out what we can about that individual.
SANCHEZ: The university has also now confirmed that the alleged shooter of Charlie Kirk is now in custody.
We also have CNN anchor Laura Coates with us.
Laura, John just mentioned the attempted assassination of Donald Trump last year. Actually, two attempted assassinations of Donald Trump in just the
last few months. We've seen a shooting at the CDC over vaccine policy. We've seen the assassination and attempted assassination of lawmakers in
Minnesota. We've seen Josh Shapiro, the governor of Pennsylvania, his home, a man bursting in with a Molotov cocktail.
It seems like political violence is ticking upward, more and more.
LAURA COATES, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: This was precisely the threat that was described by the Department of Homeland Security just a few years ago.
Talking about this. You can add to that the Supreme Court justice, Justice Roberts, having someone outside of his home trying to essentially
intimidate, threaten, possibly harm as well.
This umbrella of violence that might have an ideological spin is why you hear so many conversations about domestic terrorism, an act intended to try
to influence political action in some way, to threaten or intimidate a great community of people. It's the most dangerous as well, because it is
so particularly generalized in its application against people.
It's very terrorizing, to use the term precisely, because it is not indicating one particular victim, but also try to influence a thought
process.
Here, if this in fact is tied to his ideology, given the fact that he is quite the lightning rod in many communities and has been accessible, and
yet controversial, you've got a very terrifying prospect for so many people who share his similar qualities in the sense of a public figure who is
unabashed about their views, that alienates others, that could be a target for somebody.
It is horrific to think about this being a young father, a human being generally being targeted in this way. But now, the law enforcement
community has to go into full effect, including prosecutors. They work backwards very quickly. They tried to essentially reconstruct what
happened.
It is more than reflexive. It is proactive, trying to figure out who else might know about what's going on, what information could have been on
notice. Has this person written something to indicate a motive? The person is alive at this point, who we know.
Could they talk? Will they talk? Will they ask for their right of silence to be honored in some way? And depending on what they do, there will get a
lot more information.
But ultimately speaking, you're going to think about, as John Miller will indicate, the weapons that have been used, the motivation here. Were there
other targets? Was there a particular verbal trigger that there was coordinated in some way that law enforcement could have been made aware of?
And of course, this is on a college campus and school shootings, as we know, is one of the most terrifying prospects for any student, elementary
school and up in my home state of Minnesota, the Annunciation School as well, just most recently, the more than 40 this year alone in a brand new
school year, the community there trying to figure out the university police versus the greater law enforcement community.
Has this person traveled from out of state? Because if they have, you're talking about a different federal trigger as well. A state level attempted
murder otherwise can be dealt with in a state level prosecution. Utah having the death penalty available, the federal moratorium on death
penalties, of course, has been lifted as well.
And so you've got all sorts of the octopus of sorts is coming in all hands on deck to figure out, is there a clear and present and prospective danger,
or are we dealing with somebody who wants to use this platform, having targeted this person to gain notoriety for a larger ideological end? And
that would be under the umbrella of domestic terrorism.
KEILAR: All right. We are going to get in a quick break, but we are watching our breaking news here. Charlie Kirk has been shot, conservative
activists during his event in Utah. We will be right back with more information.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:34:25]
SANCHEZ: CEO of Turning Points USA, Charlie Kirk, has been shot at an event in Utah, at a university there. Kirk appears to have been shot in the
neck and we understand that Utah Valley University says a suspect, believed to be the shooter, is now in custody.
KEILAR: We have many people here to talk about what is going on as we await, honestly, the answers to so many questions that we have. This is
developing right now. But let's bring in Brian Stelter. Brian, this was the first of a number of stops that he was making on essentially a college
tour.
[15:35:04]
STELTER: That's right. It was called the American Comeback Tour featuring Charlie Kirk. There were at least 14 of these events slated to take place
at college campuses across the country this fall in states like Louisiana and today in Utah. But this was the very first of the events on Kirk's fall
tour.
And I know this is something that he had looked forward to over the years. This was Kirk in his element because he would take questions from the
audience and in some cases he would have what's known as the prove-me-wrong table. In fact, the event today in Orem, Utah, was promoted as having the
prove-me-wrong table. That's where Kirk would face off with opponents from the other side of the political aisle and would debate with them in public.
What we know from the videos of this shooting is that Kirk was in some sort of dialogue with the audience at the time. You can see him sitting
casually, comfortably, clearly enjoying this. Because as I said, this was the first time he was going to be out on the road this fall. There were
more than a dozen of these scheduled in the coming months.
And, you know, Turning Point USA, the group that he runs, is now confirming, quote, Kirk has been shot, he is in the hospital, and we are
praying for him at this time.
The prayers are so all-consuming right now and bipartisan. Everyone from President Trump and Vice President J.D. Vance to members of the Cabinet, to
Democratic leaders like Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer. Bipartisan condemnation of this act of political violence. It's a reminder, Brianna,
that in a country like America, in a democracy, we only have a democracy if we settle our disagreements with words, not with violence.
You know, for the liberals, for the anti-Trump voices, for the anti- Kirk voices out there who feel despair, you know, about the direction of the
country's politics, the way to address that is through words, not through violence. And so whenever we see one of these appalling crimes, it is
disturbing because it cuts to the core of how the American democracy functions.
KEILAR: Yes, certainly does.
SANCHEZ: Turning Point USA just released a statement to CNN confirming the shooting. They say this is an ongoing situation. Kirk is in the hospital,
and we are praying for him at this time.
David Chalian and Laura Coates are with us. And David, it's important to state again just the significance of Kirk in politics and specifically his
appeal to younger conservatives on college campuses in large part has to do with his accessibility, his desire to get out in front of a crowd and
debate.
CHALIAN: You know, it's hard to hold these two things simultaneously. When you're dealing with a story like this of just potentially horrific, just
tragic political violence, unacceptable political violence in this country, the fact that he is a conservative star is central to that, right? We're
talking about political violence.
And yet, and I know this is maybe hard for like cable TV news viewers or political news consumers, everything gets so divided up and everybody, you
know, we're in such a polarized time. So we also have to separate out the human tragedy that's happening right here. And the fact that this person,
that Charlie Kirk has devoted his career, again, I get that a lot of people watching right now may find his views abhorrent or maybe totally have
worked against him politically.
But the fact that he was the conservative star that he was, the fact that he was putting himself in the public spotlight to advance his beliefs and
advance a movement seems to be at the very cause as to why he was shot today and why his family may be shattered. And again, we don't know his
condition right now and our prayers should be going his way and his family's way, and they are. But it's impossible in this moment that you
don't want politics to be part of it at all.
It is impossible to separate it because it is clearly, it seems, from everything we know, this is going to be the centerpiece of a conversation
about unacceptable political violence in this country and how this country can move from this moment forward to a place where that decreases or where
that is less. I think that seems pretty elusive to America right now.
KEILAR: I think it does, David, because something like this happening, as Boris was just going through the list of things that have happened, and
there is something about this that feels different, and yet when you detail what happened in Minnesota and the CDC and you start going through it --
SANCHEZ: Only over the last few months. It's not even counting the last few years.
KEILAR: That's exactly right. You could continue on for so many years in sort of this modern era of it that we're in. It's really not the type of
situation that anyone should want to live in, no matter what their political objectives are. It's horrifying. It's horrifying.
[15:40:01]
CHALIAN: And it's not -- it's not sustainable, it seems to me. Like, in this democratic experience and experiment that we are ongoing in the search
for the more perfect union, if this is part -- becomes a more increasing part about the fabric of our political culture, we're lost as a society. So
that is, you know, if anything could come out of this, if there's some kind of wake-up call that come out of this -- I know I probably sound naive
saying that -- it would seem like we've got to find a way to be able to have politics in this country and differences of opinion that do not end
like this.
COATES: You know, you think about the only way to break a law is if a law first exists. And this is going to open a very big conversation about the
types of laws that can gain deterrence. They'll talk about gun laws, whether there are -- if there had been screening mechanisms on this campus,
whether they would have been detected that a weapon was actually there and could have been prevented from being used in this manner.
Also the idea of First Amendment and actual people who are speaking on college campuses, of course. We've heard so many instances over the last
several years about controversial figures in the First Amendment and the marketplace of ideas of a university or college setting where there's been
controversy around whether they should come or not. And safety has always been top of mind. What guaranteed safety can be given to the speaker and
also the community at large? This will be a very big conversation there.
But I put my prosecutor brain on again with a suspect in custody. We sadly are a nation plagued by gun violence, but we're also plagued by sometimes
the inability to have the person account for the violence that they have been alleged to have committed. And so this gives an opportunity for
someone in custody to answer many of the questions that we are often left grappling with trying to answer.
The why. Not a justification as a motivation, but the why. And that why can help us to explore in the prosecution context ways in which we can either
craft, amend, or reinforce laws to ensure, much like hate crime legislation that came before, the idea of if there are specific aspects you are
targeting of a person can increase penalties, undermine the ability to actually have those crimes occur.
And so this will be a part of the conversation. And again, we're talking about what appears to be just a, you know, a guess here, given the facts we
have, a premeditated act. If it's premeditated, if there's only been one shot fired, not targeting any other person, this is no longer generalized
violence.
And that means the investigative trail begins. It is electronic. It is what was on that person's body. How many cell phones? Who they communicated
with? Where they may have been before this?
Who knew about their whereabouts? Did they travel across state lines? Were there other people involved in now possibly an interstate or intrastate
activity?
Will the FBI be involved? Will it be a state or local aspect of it? This is at a time, of course, as you all know, David, especially about the motive
from the president of the United States to ensure that crime is at an all- time low in the presence of reinforcing military officials at times to make sure that's the case.
Will there be an expanded move now in that aspect of it? And if that's the case, will college campuses, which has traditionally been a bit of an
island unto itself in terms of the ability of local law enforcement to come on, will it be treated differently? The investigation begins.
Simultaneously, when the family begins to process what it would be like to explain to these young children that Daddy is hurt, and will he be coming
home tonight or ever?
SANCHEZ: We certainly are awaiting answers as to his medical condition, and we are holding out hope for the best for Charlie Kirk.
We got two significant details just now, first from the school itself, Utah Valley University, and also from a Turning Point USA aide traveling on the
tour with CNN. First, the school confirms that the shot that rang out that struck Kirk came from a campus building some 200 yards away. So that is
significant.
And further, this detail that we're learning from an aide to Turning Point USA speaking to CNN's Jeff Zeleny indicates that Kirk traveled with private
security. He had a private security contingent, whether he was speaking to large rallies like this one or smaller events.
The aide continues on, quote, We are all praying for Charlie.
I wonder, John Miller, as you hear those details, how far this shot came from, 200 yards, and that Kirk did have security with him, what you make of
that?
MILLER: Well, that points to a highly premeditated plan, and one shot that was -- and I think we can say this with confidence -- a shot that was meant
to be an assassination.
[15:45:05]
Nobody uses a rifle that can fire from that distance who fires a single shot towards the head of an intended victim who is not trying to kill them.
So this appears to be a highly premeditated event where somebody had to, in advance, figure out the venue and then figure out what their position would
be that would give them a direct line of sight and a shot they could make.
Again, Boris, it does harken back to the kind of planning, the kind of thinking that went into the attempted assassination of Donald Trump in
Pennsylvania or even the one in Florida, although the distance in Florida was not this great.
Now, we do know that an individual who appears to be a man in his late 50s, maybe 60s, who is wearing a blue shirt, black pants, was taken away by
police as the suspect.
We don't know about the gun that was recovered, but I can tell you, based on my own knowledge of firearms, to make that shot from that distance, it
would likely be a high-powered rifle. It would likely be a rifle with a scope that was calibrated to operate at that distance.
Now, when we talk about premeditation, there's been plenty of time to think about this and much controversy around it. You know, on September 3rd,
after days of controversy about Charlie Kirk's prove- me-wrong tour, about the announcement that he was coming to the university, there were thousands
of people who signed a petition against his appearance, students and faculty. There was another thousand that signed a petition in support of
it.
But his appearance there was clearly roiling on the campus, to the point that the school administration on September 3rd put out a statement
basically saying, we encourage the exchange of ideas here, and we encourage student clubs to invite speakers, and another student club might want to
invite another speaker, and that we embrace all ideas and conversations.
And yet, this was something that had found its way beyond the student press into the local press as something that was causing great controversy on the
campus, which means whoever this shooter turns out to be, if it is the man who's in custody, had a lot of notice that it was coming, understood that
there was controversy around it, and decided to take this kind of terrible, awful, direct action against it.
KEILAR: And John, just thinking about it, when you're talking about the premeditation here, in order to really mitigate a threat like this, you're
talking about securing a building at an event like this to the same degree that would have been required for, say, you know, something like President
Trump's event in Butler. I mean, that is, you know, taking the care to make sure that someone doesn't have, you know, a shot at someone. It's something
I don't think we've thought about before.
MILLER: Well, it is the kind of thing where, on one basic level, you would have to make your way to campus with a long weapon. You would have to carry
that presumably in a case so that it wouldn't be apparent and then make your way into a building where you have already scoped out the venue where
he is to speak, that building, the distance of the shot, and then to find a window.
And while you're doing all of this, you have to make sure that you do it -- and this happens, I believe, at noontime on the campus -- you would have to
do it in a room where you had access, where presumably no one else had access, as you set up a rifle. Which likely would be on a bipod or a tripod
rather than handheld, although either is possible, and to do all that.
Now, there's an alternative version beyond carrying a long rifle in a long rifle case of having a rifle that you can break down and assemble on the
scene, which could come in something as small as a duffel bag, again, something we saw with the attempted assassination of President Trump in
Butler, Pennsylvania.
But this is not a spontaneous event. It is not someone who was in the crowd and got upset and pulled out a pistol, this was a very deliberate and
premeditated and preplanned event.
[15:50:02]
SANCHEZ: CNN senior law enforcement analyst Charles Ramsey is also with us. Chief Ramsey, I imagine you hear all of that likely premeditation that
went into this. I mean, what stands out to you about these details?
CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I mean, the fact that if it turns out to be that he took the shot from that distance, then I
agree with John, it indicates a rifle was used. It is possible, since it was preplanned, that the weapon could have been pre-planted in the
university and hidden, so it wouldn't draw attention. If you did it the day before, when nobody's on campus of any significance, I don't think people
would pay much attention.
So we don't know a lot of things right now. This person who did the shooting, are they an employee of the university? Is it a person who has
been there in the past and has access to buildings and so forth? We just don't know a lot.
The bottom line is this. Outdoor scenes and events are very difficult to secure. Very difficult to secure. Indoor venues, much easier. And when you
have a crowd like that, of that size, with an individual who may be controversial in some ways, but he's not going to get the same level of
security that a president did.
And as John mentioned, I mean, President Trump was shot in an outdoor event, and he had Secret Service and other types of security at the time as
well. So if you really think that, you know, to be able to actually secure all these events, can law enforcement do it? You have no idea how difficult
and how many people it takes to really lock down a specific venue that's outdoors.
It would take a lot of resources. And I just don't think that's going to happen. And it's a tragedy. It's a shame. I don't know if there were any
threats that were made toward him that would give an indication that perhaps he was in jeopardy. But we live in a country now where there's a
gun culture. I mean, this
could be something where, you know, people are allowed to carry guns on campus. We just don't know what the motive was around this individual. But
I think it's pretty safe to say there was some political motive behind it.
But, I mean, we have an environment right now where we've got extreme left and extreme right.
KEILAR: Chief, I'm so sorry. I'm going to have to interrupt you.
Chief, I just want to interrupt you. We do have some new video. And this is video of the moments leading up to the shooting of influential conservative
activist Charlie Kirk.
We are actually pulling up that video right now. But what we have been getting are different vantage points of the before and the after at Utah
Valley University. Here is this latest video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE KIRK, CONSERVATIVE ACTIVIST: Counting or not counting gang violence?
(GUN SHOT)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my God. Run, run, run.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: You hear the reaction there in the crowd. A single shot rings out. It strikes Kirk. We obviously froze it on the frame just before that
took place. But you hear the audio playing and people saying, oh, my God, and run, run, run, and the reaction from the crowd as they disperse.
Clearly a terrifying moment and a tragic moment as well.
I want to go back to Brian Stelter because, Brian, as we watch these videos circulate on social media, there has been swift reaction to this event
across the political spectrum.
STELTER: Yes, absolutely. Bipartisan condemnation from the left, from the right. We see many Republican politicians who know Kirk personally
expressing prayers, sending well wishes to his family and pointing out that this is a young man, a 31-year-old with a young family, someone who has
become one of the biggest stars across the MAGA media universe.
You know, Charlie Kirk is a beloved figure among young conservatives, among the college students who went to see him today. They feel like he has their
back. They believe he is one of the number one, one of the top champions for the conservative movement in the United States. And that is why they
turn out in great numbers.
You know, as we look at these videos from this afternoon, we see there were hundreds of people in attendance. And, yes, there were some protesters.
There were some students or others from the community who turned out against Kirk, and they were further away, and they were holding up signs.
And one of the videos we've been showing on air, I believe, is from those protesters.
But we've also seen hundreds of students who tuned out -- who turned out because they admire Kirk and they believe in what he stands for.
[15:55:01]
He's been really skilled at building a new model of influence in the digital age with a radio show podcast that livestreams on YouTube with
these live events across the country and a willingness to debate people from the other political side.
Those are some of the attributes that have really stood out about Kirk. And so, yes, we're hearing from Republican politicians. We're hearing from
Democratic politicians, governors.
We're hearing from Gabby Giffords, who was famously almost killed in a political assassination attempt more than a decade ago. We're hearing it
from all directions this afternoon as the gravity of this situation sinks in.
You know, as we're on the air here this afternoon, there's been the report of a school shooting at a high school in Colorado. We cover these stories
on a daily basis, and we are left to wonder if there's anything, if there's anything that can be done to pull America back from this situation we're
in.
KEILAR: Yes, Brian, thank you so much for that. As Brian mentioned, we are also following this breaking news out of Colorado. We just got this
information in.
Police say at least two students have been shot at a high school, at least two students. This is at Evergreen High School, which is outside of Denver.
CNN's Veronica Miracle is joining us now on this story.
Veronica, what are you learning here?
VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we were just watching a briefing just before I started speaking to you, and officials are saying
that this happened on school grounds. They're not clear if it's one shooter or multiple shooters. As you mentioned, at least two students have been
shot. We understand that students have been taken to St. Anthony's Hospital.
This is a high school that is about 30 miles southwest from Denver. It's a smaller school, fewer than 1,000 students, with grades 9 through 12. They
had been in school for just about two weeks, the start of the school year, when this shooting happened.
A Twitter account for Jefferson County Emergency Management said that there are reports of an active assailant in the area of Evergreen High School. We
understand that it did happen on campus. If you have children who attend the school, please do not go directly to the school, as it is an active
scene. They are going to set up some kind of reunification point. They're in the process of that to try and get parents back to their children. The
Colorado governor has been briefed. He shared a statement. Jared Polis said, I'm closely monitoring the situation at Evergreen High School. I'm
getting live updates. State troopers are supporting local law enforcement in responding to this situation. Students should be able to attend school
safely and without fear across our state and nation. We are all praying for the victims and the entire community.
Now, at this point, there is no clear connection, if any, to the shooting that happened at Utah Valley University, where Charlie Kirk was shot, and
nearby Utah. But, of course, both of these shootings happening on school campuses around the same time, incredibly jarring and very scary.
And we'll bring you more details as soon as we get them.
SANCHEZ: Veronica Miracle, please keep us updated on the events at Evergreen High School.
Let's go back to Chief Charles Ramsey, because, Chief Ramsey, you were just speaking a moment ago about how things seem like they're going off the
rails, not just in terms of political violence, but generally when it comes --
RAMSEY: They are off the rails.
SANCHEZ: Yes, when it comes to gun violence in this country, and especially in Colorado. I worked in Denver for years and covered numerous
school shootings. Columbine in Littleton, Colorado, is what kicked off this modern era where slowly it seems like we've become desensitized to these
things.
And it was only about a week or two ago that we were talking about the Annunciation Church and school in Minnesota where there was a shooting.
Chief Ramsey, I mean, how do you not become numb to these things?
RAMSEY: Well, you have to fight to keep from being numb, but there needs to be some action taken. I don't know exactly what needs to be taken.
You know, you say things are going off the rails. They are off the rails and have been that way for a while. And it's very difficult to pull it
back. I mean, this stuff is not going to stop. It's either going to be political violence, it'll be school shootings, it'll be something else
that'll be taking place. I mean, our society has just gotten so violent now that everything is resolved with a gun.
And I don't know how you pull back from that, to be honest with you. I really don't. I mean, there are some steps that could be taken, but
thoughts and prayers aren't going to do it. If thoughts and prayers worked, we'd be the safest country on the planet with all of the things going on,
with all the prayers that are given every time we have something like this happen.
And we're all somewhat shocked, but then we're not shocked.
It's just not going to stop. It's not going to stop on its own. We have to sit down and have thoughtful discussion on how we keep people safe. It's
not going to be easy, and it won't be 100 percent, but something has to happen.
SANCHEZ: Chief Ramsey, thank you so much for that perspective.
If you are just joining us, we are following two shootings this afternoon, one in Utah. Conservative activist Charlie Kirk appears to have been shot
in the neck. We are working to find out his medical condition at this time.
We're also following a report of two students being shot at Evergreen High School not far from Denver, Colorado.
END
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