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What We Know with Max Foster

News Conference Postponed Due To "Rapid Developments" In Kirk Case; Majority On Brazil Supreme Court Panel Votes To Convict Bolsonaro; Qatari PM Casts Doubt On Fate Of Ceasefire, Hostage Talks; Photos From FBI Show "Person Of Interest" In Kirk Murder; Bipartisan Calls To End Political Violence After Kirk Murder; U.K. Fires Ambassador To U.S. Peter Mandeson Over Epstein Links. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired September 11, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:30]

CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, CNN HOST: Investigators say there have been rapid developments in the search for Charlie Kirk's killer.

I'm Christina Macfarlane in for Max Foster, and this is WHAT WE KNOW.

Investigators searching for the person who gunned down popular conservative activist Charlie Kirk say they postponed a news conference that was

scheduled to take place last hour due to what they're calling rapid developments in the case.

The FBI released these images of someone they are describing as a person of interest. They're offering a $100,000 reward for information leading to the

arrest of the suspect.

Authorities say they have made several breakthroughs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT BOHLS, SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE, FBI'S SALT LAKE CITY FIELD OFFICE: This morning. I can tell you that we have recovered what we believe is the

weapon that was used in yesterday's shooting. It is a high powered, bolt- action rifle. That rifle was recovered in a wooded area where the shooter had fled.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Well, Kirk was speaking to a large crowd at a Utah college on Wednesday when he was shot in broad daylight. Police say they have what

they're calling good video of the suspect, who they believe is of college age.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEAU MASON, COMMISSIONER, UTAH DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: We were able to track his movements as he moved to the other side of the building,

jumped off of the building and fled off of the campus and into a neighborhood. Our investigators have worked through those neighborhoods,

contacting anybody they can with doorbell cameras witnesses, and have thoroughly worked through those communities trying to identify any leads.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: This video footage shows a dark shape, possibly a person, lying down on the roof of a building near the shooting. It's the same roof

someone was seen running from in another clip after the shot rang out.

I want to bring in Tom Verni. He's a former detective for the New York Police Department and a law enforcement consultant.

Tom, thanks so much for being with us.

And as we read the tea leaves here, you know, as this manhunt continues now into its 24th hour, we heard investigators saying that they were going to

be postponing this press conference because or due to rapid developments in the case. That's what they said.

What does that signal to you?

THOMAS VERNI, FORMER DETECTIVE, NYPD: Well, thank you for having me. And my condolences to the Kirk family this horrible scenario that played out

yesterday. So, yeah, look, if they had a -- they may have a person of interest possibly at this point. They -- but are not yet ready to say that

they've made an actual arrest of the person because they may be waiting for additional evidence to do that. Again, you would need probable cause to

actually affect an arrest, to show that the person has, there's enough evidence to show that the person is connected with this incident.

So they're probably waiting for that if or they're still actively tracking this person down. So, they may know who the person is at this point

possibly, and are trying to find a location of this person.

Now, as I mentioned last night on CNN International, that and I -- and correctly made the assumption that this was a long gun that was used, which

is what it was, of course, given the distance from where the shooter was to where Mr. Kirk was. And then also, you know, I mentioned trying to gather

as much physical evidence, ballistic evidence as well as video evidence as possible to do what we known as a grid search to try to track the movements

of where the person was or thought to have been when the shooting took place, to where they may have fled to. And that's what's been happening

over the last 24 hours.

You know, unfortunately, unlike television shows where this is wrapped up in 43 minutes without the commercials, you know, these investigations are

pretty arduous and take quite a while to put together.

MACFARLANE: Yeah.

VERNI: And when we're talking about an area that's pretty vast as well.

MACFARLANE: Yeah. And to your point about, you know, the details were learning from the investigation that's ongoing. I mean, we now know what

gun was used. This bolt action rifle and, we also know that the shooter was able to hit his target with, you know, incredible accuracy. And does all of

that help us to build a picture as to who this suspect might have been?

VERNI: Yeah. I mean, if this person has had some sort of formal training with firearms, if this person is old enough to have maybe been in the

military at one point.

[15:05:07]

These are all questions as to who this person is and what sort of skill sets do they have? So, for the public, when they see the pictures that have

been released of this individual, it if you start to connect the dots here, like who do I know that sort of fits the physical description of who

they're looking for, right?

And this person in many cases, I don't know if it's the case here, but in a lot of these types of shootings that happen here in the United States, many

times the perpetrators have left some sort of messaging either whether it's a physical manifesto or scrawling of some sorts to online social media

postings, whether it be, you know, Facebook, X, or TikTok or whatever it may be, Instagram, you know, so there's usually breadcrumbs floating around

somewhere. It's just a matter of connecting all those dots.

And now that the pictures are out there, people are probably going to be wondering who this person is. Oh, is this my neighbor kind of looks like

that. Or I know someone at school that looks like that. And oh yeah, I think they have a rifle or I've seen them, do, you know, go out and shoot

before or they know they've gone hunting before. So those are the sort of bits and pieces that are trying to be put together at this time. And there

are a number of people in all different agencies helping to work on this case, local, state and federal authorities.

So the hope is, is that this person could be apprehended relatively quickly.

MACFARLANE: Yeah. And as I mentioned before, were 24 hours now into this manhunt. Given what you know of the state of Utah, what is the likelihood

that he has been able -- been able to flee the state or even the country at this point? I mean, it's been a day.

VERNI: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's -- I mean, it is always possible, that that they have had enough time to do that. It is very likely that they

would have sort of put the hammer down as far as closing, you know, having the borders sort of given a once over or twice over. But, you know, people

leaving the borders, you know, given the circumstances in this case to be on the lookout for anyone who, you know might fit that description or look

suspicious or what have you.

And given the location of where this took place, there was a -- there's a main highway there where you could either flee north or south, you know,

for you to flee east or west, you'd have to go through some pretty rough terrain open terrain there. So, the likelihood is that if you're going to

flee and you want to flee quickly, you want to do that in a vehicle. And to do that, you're either going north or south. And I believe the next closest

city is Salt Lake City.

So the authorities there, of course, are going to be put on to alert of what took place at the college and then be on the lookout for someone who,

you know, is sort of acting odd or driving erratically or whatever it may be, and that person's not going to want to sort of make them put themselves

under a spotlight. So they're going to traverse the, you know, the area very carefully if they want to make a clean getaway.

MACFARLANE: Yeah. Well, we will wait to see, I guess, when that press conference happens. Presumably it will be soon or at some point in the next

few hours. But for now, Tom, it's been -- it's great to have your thoughts on this. Thank you.

VERNI: Thank you. Appreciate it.

MACFARLANE: Now, Charlie Kirk was a big supporter of President Donald Trump and a close Trump family friend. Sources tell CNN his remains will be

flown on Air Force Two today from Utah to Arizona, where he lived.

The president says he plans to honor Kirk's memory.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have no doubt that Charlie's voice and the courage he put into the hearts of countless people,

especially young people, will live on. I'm pleased to announce that I will soon be awarding Charlie Kirk posthumously the Presidential Medal of

Freedom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: CNN senior White House correspondent Kristen Holmes is joining me now.

And I guess, Kristen, as we consider the day's events there, the fact that Charlie Kirk's remains will be flown on Air Force Two, just another sign of

the closeness he had to the Trump administration.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, they're treating him as though he was part of their family. And when you hear from

Don Jr., when you hear from Donald Trump, when you even hear from, you know, the staffers and the advisers, he was part of the family.

There was just an interview that Trump's son, Don Jr., did, on a podcast in which he said that he and Charlie Kirk spoke almost every day for the last

ten years. He said that he called him a little brother, that he felt like he was part of his family. And again, this is just another showing of how

they felt and the closeness they had with this conservative activist.

One thing to keep in mind here, it's not just that the remains are being flown on Air Force Two. It's that Vice President J.D. Vance was supposed to

go to New York for 9/11 anniversary events or commemoration events, and instead, because of yesterday, flew out to Utah to meet with Kirk's family,

a family that he and his family are incredibly close to.

[15:10:12]

And then fly the remains back down to Arizona, where Charlie Kirk is from and where he is based.

So, again, they are going out of their way here to show how important Kirk was to them. And the part of this that I think, you know, we've touched on

is that it's not just political. Everyone within Trump's administration credits Charlie Kirk, at least in part, with helping Trump win 2024,

particularly when it came to young voters. He devised an entire system in Arizona to change, to flip that state red, and also use that same mechanism

in various other states to get young people out to vote. He was part of a strategy and a successful strategy.

There's also just a personal aspect of all of this, which was that there was a belief inside the administration that Charlie Kirk was their friend.

And I'm talking about wide ranging here. People who knew him well, people who didn't know him that well.

And on top of that, they believe that he had his finger on the pulse of the MAGA movement, particularly when it came to young people. There was a

reliance on him. They took him seriously. He was a thinker. He would put out thought provoking information.

And they listened to him. They respected him. And that went all the way up to the president of the United States, which, you know, that respect with

President Trump does not always go both ways, but in this case, it certainly did.

MACFARLANE: And you know, Kristen, we've seen in the aftermath of this shooting, a lot of anger, a lot of finger pointing, a lot of accusations

coming from lawmakers in Washington. How much is that kind of muddying the water or complicating the picture as this manhunt for the suspect is still

active and still continuing?

HOLMES: I do think there's a lot of grief going on right now. I think yesterday was a day of profound sadness for people who were close to

Charlie Kirk and for conservative activists. I think that today, you're seeing a lot more of the anger. The question is really how that plays out

in the days to come.

I will tell you that this White House and the lawmakers, even the ones that are out there kind of using vitriolic language, everybody wants to see this

investigation come to a close. They want answers on what happened and how this happened.

I think the movement part, when you talk about how this is going to look going forward, well, that were not there yet. We're not there yet to see if

people can tone down the rhetoric to see if they can try and get away from this period of political violence that we're in.

But right now, what I've seen the focus be on is this anger, but also frustration that they don't have more answers.

MACFARLANE: Yeah. Understandable. Kristen Holmes there from Washington, we appreciate it, Kristen. Thanks.

Now turning to some breaking news out of Brazil. A five-member panel of Brazil's Supreme Court has voted to convict former President Jair

Bolsonaro. Prosecutors accuse him of plotting a coup and trying to abolish Democratic rule, all in the hopes of staying in office. We'll have more on

this in just a few minutes.

Also coming up, Qatar is blaming Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for sabotaging any chance for peace between Israel and Hamas. Our exclusive

interview with Qatar's prime minister, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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MACFARLANE: Breaking news out of Brazil, a five-member panel of Brazil's Supreme Court has voted to convict former President Jair Bolsonaro.

Prosecutors accuse him of plotting a coup and trying to abolish democratic rule, all in the hopes of staying in office.

CNN Brazil senior correspondent Americo Martins joins me now.

Americo, this was a landmark case, and this is a landmark historic ruling.

AMERICO MARTINS, CNN BRASIL SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely historic.

MACFARLANE: Tell us what you know.

MARTINS: Yes, absolutely historic. It's the first time we have a Brazilian political leader and four major generals, military generals convicted of

trying a coup d'etat in Brazil. Brazil has a long history of, unfortunately, of military intervention in politics. This was the first

time we have a leader convicted.

Today, the Supreme Court reached a majority. So, they have a panel of five judges ruling the case. Three of them already voted to condemn him.

Tomorrow, we are going to have another session of the Supreme Court, and then we are going to know how long the sentence will be. He is facing 43

years in jail.

MACFARLANE: Yeah. So he's currently under house arrest?

MARTINS: Yes.

MACFARLANE: So, in terms of his movements, I guess we'll wait for the outcome of tomorrow. But then what might come and what might happen?

MARTINS: He will -- well, now he's considered guilty. His lawyers will be able to appeal. But on technicalities, it's very unlikely to change the

result of this decision. Tomorrow, we're going to know the sentence. He's facing up to 43 years.

However, he's unlikely to get that much because one of the judges voted to acquit him, not to condemn him. Although they reached his majority now and

he's under house arrest and they will decide tomorrow the length of the sentence. And if he's going to stay in house arrest or he's going to be

sent to a military prison, for example, or to the federal police.

MACFARLANE: I mean, we know this is a case that has divided a nation. We've had protests out in the street on both sides of the aisle. Is there

concern right now that violence is going to erupt in the aftermath of this? I mean, what are you hearing about the mood?

MARTINS: Unlikely to have violence. Thanks, but you are very right. Brazil is very polarized at the moment. It's very, very divided.

So, this is one case that will touch on the passions of people. Bolsonaro remains a very popular right-wing politician. His supporters will protest.

They are pushing the Congress to vote some kind of amnesty. But hopefully, we're going to have some demonstrations, but not violence.

We had lots of demonstrations recently in Brazil from both sides, people backing the left, people backing the right. But thank God we didn't have

violence. So, we are not expecting that. But I guess the authorities are preparing for that in any case.

MACFARLANE: Just to go back to the historic nature of this, the first time a leader has been held accountable for attempting a coup. What does this

mean, this moment mean for Brazil's political future?

MARTINS: It's historic, and I think it shows the mature of democracy in Brazil. Brazil is consolidated, relatively young democracy. So, I think

it's a very, very important decision to show that nobody is above the law.

As I mentioned to you, Brazil had a very, very long history of military attempts, military coup, military intervention. We had a dictatorship that

lasted for 21 years. Nobody ever answered for all the crimes that were committed during that period.

Now, we have a politician that had been elected, tried a coup, according to the Supreme Court, and is going to be punished for that, including the

generals.

[15:20:00]

That's also very important. So, I think it's a sign that democracy in Brazil is coming to age.

MACFARLANE: I mean, it is a busy day in Washington, as we've been reporting. But we will, of course, look to reaction from there. Obviously,

this has been a case that has escalated tensions with President Trump.

But for now, a historic day, as you say, and we will continue to follow this. Americo, appreciate you being here. Thank you.

Now, the Qatari prime minister says Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has killed any hope for hostages remaining in Gaza. He also

called Israel's attack on Qatar Tuesday state terrorism. At least six people were killed. Hamas says they include five of its members. Qatar is

set to host an emergency Arab Islamic Summit on Sunday. That's according to the country's news agency.

The funeral for those killed in that strike, including a member of Qatar's security force, was held a short time ago.

On Wednesday, Qatar's prime minister sat down with CNN's Becky Anderson. And here is part of that conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMMED ABDULRAHMAN AL-THANI, QATARI PRIME MINISTER: It's not only an undermining for our sovereignty and our (ph) sovereignty. It's undermining

for the entire negotiations, undermining for the U.S. Honestly, I have no words to express how rage we are from such an --

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST: If you could describe it in one word, what would that be?

AL-THANI: This is terror (ph). That's what I call it.

ANDERSON: Do you feel betrayed?

AL-THANI: We are betrayed. Yes.

ANDERSON: By the U.S.?

AL-THANI: No, I cannot -- I cannot say it's by the U.S. The U.S. has expressed in many occasions their support to us.

And by the way, at the same day, I was -- I was meeting one of the hostage's family that morning, the morning of the attack. The -- carrying a

message that the families, they are counting on this mediation. They have no other hope for that.

And I think that what Netanyahu has done yesterday, he just killed any hope for those -- for those hostages.

ANDERSON: Well, in the past hour, he has doubled down on his position.

He has said, and I quote the Israeli prime minister here, "I say to Qatar and to all nations who harbor terrorists" -- his words, not mine -- "you

either expel them or bring them to justice, because if you don't, we will."

Do you take that as a threat of further action here?

AL-THANI: Well, we don't accept, first of all, such a threat coming from someone like Netanyahu.

And he's calling about bring them to justice, he needs to be brought to justice. He's the one who's wanted by the ICC.

ANDERSON: Where are the Hamas members right now? And will you shut down their offices?

AL-THANI: Right now, we are reassessing everything about the whole process.

ANDERSON: The future of these talks, at this point, not clear.

AL-THANI: I mean, I -- I don't have an answer for this because, really, I don't see -- I see a meaningless talk. Right now, right now what we are

doing -- and I think that being -- rethinking even about the entire process for the last few weeks, that Netanyahu was just wasting our time. He wasn't

serious about anything.

There is a collective response that should happen from the region. And this collective response, we are hoping for something meaningful that deter

Israel from continuing this bullying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: It's safe to say Charlie Kirk's murder shocked the nation. And after the break, we'll take a look at the rise of political violence in the

United States.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:27:08]

MACFARLANE: This hour, a manhunt is still underway for the shooter who killed Charlie Kirk. The FBI has released these photos of a person of

interest. They are offering a reward of up to $100,000 for information leading to the arrest of a suspect. Investigators say they have recovered a

high powered, bolt-action rifle. Sources tell CNN in phrases that phrases were scrawled on the weapon and ammunition.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEAU MASON, UTAH PUBLIC SAFETY COMMISSIONER: The suspect blended in well with a college institution. That individual appears to be of college age.

ROBERT BOHLS, FBI SPECIAL AGENT: We're doing everything we can to find him, and we're not sure how far he has gone yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: The president of Utah Valley University says her campus community is shocked and saddened by this deadly attack. Students at UVU

are now calling for peace.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOGAN TOPHAM, STUDENT, UTAH VALLEY UNIVERSITY: If I could say anything, it's probably just that no matter what our views may be and no matter how

we feel about the situation, that we all need to learn to love and support one another better, especially with those who disagree with us. Because I'm

guessing most of the actions that happened and Charlie Kirk's death were caused by political disagreement. And I think that we all need to learn to

recognize one another as members of the same human family and just learn to work together, even through our differences, and learn to find unity, even

if we don't agree on everything, just to prevent things like this from happening in the future.

CHASE HUGHES, STUDENT, UTAH VALLEY UNIVERSIYT: I'm heartbroken, clearly, by this -- this horrific and tragic thing that happened. And I just want it

to be known that that UVU is not a place of fear, but a place of learning. And that if people on both sides of the aisle are afraid to come, that we

need people who are willing to speak about what they believe in on campus, and I want them to know that if they want to come, we want to have them.

And I will greet them at the door.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: A press conference scheduled for last hour to provide updates on the search was postponed due to rapid developments in the investigation.

Ed Lavandera is on the ground for us in Orem, Utah.

Ed, what more are you hearing about the reason for that postponement?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we are trying to get to the bottom of what exactly that means. Of course, in a situation

where there is an active manhunt ongoing, everybody is kind of assuming that it -- rescheduling a press briefing at that late moment, probably, and

could very well have something to do with the development in the search for the suspect and the gunman in this. But we do not know for certain at this

point. It is something we will continue to monitor.

But we do know that there has been a great deal of law enforcement, investigative activity and some developments that we can share with you.

[15:30:02]

Authorities here in the last few hours have released a clips of video, images showing someone that they want to talk with a young man wearing dark

clothing, dark sunglasses in a stairwell. And that brings us to the neighborhood were in, because after the shooting, there were reports that

there had been someone seen on a rooftop.

We are in a neighborhood overlooking the Utah Valley University campus, and down in that direction you'll see the buildings in the distance. Those are

the rooftops, and one in particular, just there in the distance by like those that gray pyramid color structure. That that is the area where it is

believed that this suspect and this gunman might have been perched from and had a view of Charlie Kirk and was able to get the vantage point that he

needed to fire off that one deadly shot.

And investigators have been going through there. There were some reports and some indication that perhaps the suspect was able to get off the roof

and kind of leave the campus area. Investigators have said that the young man was able to blend in well with other students and young people leaving

the campus. In the frantic moments after the shooting, and that is why this particular neighborhood has been getting so much attention.

We have seen law enforcement agents going up and down the neighborhood. We've been told that they've been showing pictures of seeing if they

recognize anybody of a possible suspect and that kind of work. All of that continues to intensify.

Law enforcement, Christina, also says they have found the firearm in a wooded area, and there is a cordoned off area just below this house down on

the street below that is cordoned off with yellow crime scene tape. And that is an area where we've seen investigators working throughout the

afternoon here in Utah as well. So, a great deal of activity, but it still doesn't bring us any closer, closer to finding out who this suspect is, who

the gunman is, or where he might be at this point.

And that is what investigators are mainly focused on. We will wait and find out if these rapidly developing changes that cause the postponement of this

latest press briefing has anything to do with that search. And as soon as we find out, we'll let you know, of course.

MACFARLANE: Yeah. And it sounds, Ed, like the operation is still very focused around the sort of residential areas where you are there. Given

you've been on the ground there for a little while now, I just wonder if you could perhaps give us an overview of a small overview of the topography

of Utah and, you know, the weather. There would have been much space for the suspect to escape, to be it open spaces, woodland spaces, because we've

heard that there's kind of one road in and one road out.

LAVANDERA: Yeah, there aren't a whole lot of roads. This -- this neighborhood where we are sits kind of on a ridge overlooking the campus.

So, it's, you know, difficult. But there are, you know, once you get in here, there are ways to kind of get out.

But what is most significant is if you look back on the west side of the campus, way in the distance there, you might see a lake between that lake

and the campus. There is a -- an interstate that runs north and south, and it will take you all the way to Salt Lake. It will take you. It will get

you out of the area completely.

So, if you get -- if the gunman or suspect was able to get here and into a vehicle within just a couple of minutes, they would be able to access that

highway and get away from the scene rather quickly. Again, this is just kind of trying to piece together some possibilities of what a scenario

might have unfolded. We do not know for sure exactly how this gunman was able to exactly slip away from this area.

But, you know, you can work out through various scenarios as you stand here and get a lay of the land.

MACFARLANE: Yeah, Ed, we appreciate it for now. We'll obviously keep in touch. Thank you.

Well, President Donald Trump says he will posthumously present Charlie Kirk with the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

Lawmakers, both Democrats and Republicans, are expressing sadness at the shooting and calling for an end to political violence. U.S. House Speaker

Mike Johnson says many lawmakers have reached out to him asking for more security for members of Congress.

There was a tense moment on the House floor on Wednesday, as some Republicans wanted to say prayers for Kirk when Democrats shouted back

about a school shooting in Colorado earlier Wednesday and called for action on gun violence. Then at least one Republican began swearing at them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(INAUDIBLE)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Let's, let's, let's --

(EXPLETIVE DELETED)

JOHNSON: Wait a minute, wait a minute. The House will be in order. The House will be in order. Shh. The House will be in order.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNSON: I thought it was appropriate to have a moment of prayer and reflection for Charlie Kirk. Yet as I was approaching the rostrum, people's

phones were saying that he had been deceased. But it wasn't. It wasn't formally called yet. The emotion was very high in the room.

We had a moment of silence, and after that a member stood to be recognized and said, let's have open prayer.

[15:35:01]

And that started a debate. And people felt like it was being politicized on the Democrat side of the aisle. I guess there were some shouts and groans,

and then the Republicans responded, and it turned into a little bit of chaos there. We had to bring order back and get back to it.

But I think that was a reflection of the emotion of the moment, the real sense of kind of shock that people were feeling. I think justifiably,

understandably. But I think after that, I think a lot of people will reflect upon things they said and did in that moment, and they probably

regret it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Joining us from Washington is Stephen Collinson.

And, Stephen, it's clear really what is needed now are responsible voices to tamp down on this divisive rhetoric. And Speaker Johnson there pointing

out, quite rightly, there was a lot of emotion in the room, but there was also a lot of hostility on the Hill. And I guess it raises the question,

are the political establishment able, ready and prepared to provide that type of support in this moment?

STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: Well, I don't really think so. I think the problem is that the incentives in American politics

and it's true everywhere, but I think it's more extreme in the United States because most things are, are for polarization, for division. You

have a very, very split and divided country.

You have in each party the more extreme wings of the party are dictating the ideology, the political center has lost a lot of power. So, you know,

you would think that the one good thing, perhaps to happen from this would be for President Donald. Trump and a major Democrat to stand up together

and appear together and both try to tamp down political violence.

Perhaps a Democrat that's themselves. Been affected by political violence. But that's almost impossible to believe ever happening.

The president gave an address last night which was very touching in his eulogy of Charlie Kirk, but also at the end of it, he did turn towards

blaming leftists and liberals there, of course, in the Republican Party for all sorts of action against Democrats. And if you look online, there are

some terrible things have been said by -- which looked like left wing progressive posters about Charlie Kirk, and this death.

So, I think we're in a period in American politics which has always been violent. But over the last year at least has become even more violent. A

number of attacks on Republicans and Democrats.

It's very difficult to see, I think, any way in which the situation is in any way mitigated after the death of Charlie Kirk.

MACFARLANE: Yeah. And we're showing on the screen here, Stephen, you know, a quite galling long list of lawmakers, violent acts against these

political figures. But it does feel, Stephen, in this moment, that lawmakers on both sides of the aisle now are really grappling with how to

engage with the public moving forward, you know, whether they are going to continue to appear in public and to have sort of open forums whether or not

they're going to need additional security.

Do you think we're seeing a bit of a turning point? Do you expect things to change from this moment on?

COLLINSON: You know, one of the interesting things about Charlie Kirk was that he made his name by doing exactly what he was doing on Wednesday,

going to campuses, engaging people face to face. His shtick, if you like, was to, go onto a campus where conservative students have often felt a

little bit marginalized because these are generally fairly liberal places in a lot of the states of the United States, and to take on progressive

students and to argue with them.

And it's not that he was having a dialogue because what he was doing was trying to get the better of them and put these videos on YouTube. But at

least, I mean, that was the essence of political dialogue, trying to convince someone else in public, in a public meeting of your own position.

It seems very unlikely, you know, that people who were his contemporaries on the conservative movement or even liberals would do that in future,

given the risks.

I mean, I've covered so many presidential campaigns and the start of the presidential campaign, you're generally going with a candidate to very

small towns in places like Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina say there's 40 people in a school or in someone's backyard. I mean, does that

kind of campaigning still happen?

And if it doesn't, if everything takes place behind you know, in security, behind mags, which the Secret Service puts up to make sure that, you know,

like in an airport, that someone doesn't go in there with a gun.

[15:40:03]

What does that do to political dialogue?

The big problem is so much of this is online. People are anonymous in many ways. They can shelter from the consequences of their rhetoric. If you

can't have public meetings like the one Charlie Kirk was having, it really does make politics even more polarized and poisonous.

MACFARLANE: It really does. And you can read more of Stephen's thoughts on this, an excellent piece on CNN.com analysis.

Stephen, we appreciate you. Thank you.

COLLINSON: Thanks.

MACFARLANE: Now the British ambassador to the U.S. is out of a job over links to Jeffrey Epstein. After the break, why the scandal is putting new

pressure on the British prime minister.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:43:49]

MACFARLANE: Peter Mandelson is out and an interim U.K. ambassador to the U.S. is in. This after Mandelson was fired from the post over links to the

late convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. It comes just days before Britain is set to welcome U.S. President Donald Trump with a state visit.

Observers say there might be some awkward moments because the president is embroiled in his own controversy over links to Epstein.

I want to bring in Matthew Holehouse, British political correspondent at "The Economist".

Good to have you with us.

I mean, it's really hard to avoid this story today in the U.K. It is absolutely everywhere, and rightly so. You know, Peter Mandelson's

association with Jeffrey Epstein was already known when he was appointed to the position of ambassador to the U.S., and added to that, of course, he

has a terrible track record. This is the third time he's been removed from his post.

So why did the prime minister take this gamble in appointing him?

MATTHEW HOLEHOUSE, BRITISH POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE ECONOMIST: It really is the most dreadful mess for Sir Keir Starmer. I mean, on the face

of it, this is a mess, isn't it, because you have this state visit next week.

[15:45:03]

It's going to be a hugely high-profile event. It's going to be horses and carriages and all the pomp and circumstance that comes with that. And

they've lost. The ambassador who really -- Mandelson had such a huge role in shaping what is going to be, you know, the nature of the visit, but also

the agreement that they're hoping to sign out of it. But much more than that, it really does draw really big questions about Keir Starmer's

judgment.

I mean, Mandelson was a, you know, a sort of a known figure, shall we say, before he was appointed to this. He's one of the biggest figures in British

politics. Absolutely, instrumental to the previous labor government. But known with all that was the fact that, A, he had a sort of a bit of a

scandal prone career earlier in politics, but particularly what was known was this relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

There have been lots of reporting previously about them sort of being in contact with each other. Mandelson having stayed in his properties. Starmer

overlooked that. He thought that Mandelson was a higher worth making, that it was worth overlooking all that. But it has unraveled horribly for him.

MACFARLANE: And Mandelson was known as, I believe, the Trump whisperer, right? I mean, he despite his failures, I mean, he was considered to be

very good at the role itself. And he did steer Britain through a very sensitive time with the Trump administration, especially over the, you

know, the threats of tariffs, et cetera.

So, an added problem for the prime minister is how difficult is it going to be to replace him, especially with that state visit in less than a week?

HOEHOUSE: Yeah, the case for appointing Mandelson, despite all this baggage and despite everything that was known with the relationship with

Epstein, was that really he is, you know, a very, very experienced figure in British politics very well. But he's also this incredible network. He

sort of made networking his business. He built a successful consultancy career doing just that.

And that seemed to be really paying off in office. So, there was a real fear amongst people, particularly on the on the left in the U.K., that, you

know, a Starmer and Trump government would sort of -- sorry, a Trump administration and smaller government would just clash. You know, this sort

of rather, you know, Starmer figure on the left, you know, not the most sort of articulate, not the most -- you know, effusive figure would almost

be like a, you know, a sort of a rabbit caught in the middle of the road as the Trump juggernaut came towards him. There was lots of speculation that a

Trump administration would almost punish Britain for its record and free speech, and all the rest of it.

Mandelson seemed to do a really effective job in basically convincing the Trump administration that actually the U.K. is one of America's oldest

allies. And actually, they could work very, very well with a Starmer government. So, you know, U.K. has been was -- the first economist to get a

deal with the Trump administration, which -- which would sort of carve it out from, from at least some of Trump's tariffs.

There seem to have been a sort of a genuine, you know, friendship is probably too strong a word, but a sort of an understanding, a degree of

warmth between Starmer and Trump and a lot of that, you know, the credit for that does go to Mandelson, who seems to have worked extremely hard --

MACFARLANE: Yeah.

HOLEHOUSE -- at getting around the White House, knowing people and making the case.

MACFARLANE: And obviously, this is not over yet, as you say, there will probably be more inspection into this and more, political fallout for the

prime minister.

For now, though, Matthew, I appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.

HOLEHOUSE: Thank you.

MACFARLANE: All right. Still to come, a country divided while some are trying to cool down the temperature of the nation, others are stoking

division in the wake of Charlie Kirk's murder. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:51:24]

MACFARLANE: Returning to our top story now, the killing of conservative activist Charlie Kirk. Kirk was a strong debater and often courted

controversy. So, it should come as no surprise, really, that his death has inspired a passionate response from fellow conservatives, some of whom have

blamed Democrats and liberals for the attack.

Activist Laura Loomer claimed a trained assassin took Kirk's life. She said, "I hate to say it, but we have a sick feeling we will be seeing more

targeted assassination. The left are terrorists."

But other voices are calling for calm.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN KARL, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, ABC NEWS: He goes and he takes questions from people who find his views to be controversial, to be

offensive. He listens to the critique. He tells his supporters to be respectful, and he engages in a debate. It's something, frankly, that is

all too rare in the country today.

TERRY SCHILLING, AMERICAN PRINCIPLES PROJECT: I think that we have the opportunity right now to tone down the rhetoric, back off of all this

garbage. I think -- I just hope that that the politicians, the leaders, right, the leaders have outspoken weight here. It's immeasurable. We have

to get the rhetoric under control. We have to stop calling each other these terrible names.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: CNN chief media analyst Brian Stelter joins me now.

And, Brian, it was interesting to see there an effort from traditional media to kind of show responsibility in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk

shooting. But given what we saw --

(CROSSTALK)

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: -- from conservative outlets. Yeah.

(CROSSTALK)

MACFARLANE: I was going to say, given what we saw online.

STELTER: Some conservative outlets like Fox News, you know, we've seen this from a number of media outlets trying to cool the temperature rather

than let it get hotter. But unfortunately, there are so many social media incentive structures that push toward that dehumanizing, ugly rhetoric.

What we need right now is a lot more humanity, not less. But we live in an environment where algorithms push us further to the fringes. But as with

any debate right, there are some people being constructive. There's others being destructive. And you're definitely seeing a mix of that online today.

Conservative radio host Ben Shapiro, for example, being constructive on the air, saying, were going to pick up that bloodstained microphone where

Charlie left it and keep going.

And I was really struck by what Tyler Bowyer said. He was the chief operating officer at Talking Points. Basically, the number two to Charlie

Kirk. And here's what he said on a webcast earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TYLER BOWYER, CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER, TURNING POINT USA: The anger, those feelings that you're feeling must turn to activism, turn into activism.

Thats what Charlie would want.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STELTER: He told listeners to commit to love, grow your family, to honor Charlie and fight for our country, to believe him.

So, you have people that were close to Kirk saying, let's use this as an opportunity to rally and recommit to the cause, but not try to tear each

other apart. You know, here's what I think we're seeing more broadly online in these debates. If folks on the right only highlight violence by people

with liberal leanings, and if folks on the left only focus on violence by people with conservative leanings, then we're never going to get anywhere.

You know, we're just going to remain in this spiral of violence that America is in right now.

It is so deeply dishonest and ludicrous to act as if all the political violence in the U.S. comes from one side or another sides, not even the

right word. We're talking about madness. In a time when most people want humanity and reality and kindness and normalcy in the country. And, you

know, I think everybody has those kinds of emotions today because this is such a difficult moment in the U.S.

MACFARLANE: Yeah, and that's really well said. Brian, we appreciate your thoughts.

[15:55:01]

Thank you.

Well, finally, America is honoring and reflecting today on this 24th anniversary of the September 11th terror attacks.

Bells were rung at a service in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, to honor the 40 passengers and crew members of Flight 93 who died when their hijacked plane

crashed into a field there. And at the Pentagon, a giant flag was unfurled at sunrise ahead of a special commemoration that was attended by President

Trump and the first lady. And at the 9/11 memorial in New York, family members read aloud the names of nearly 3,000 people who lost their lives

that day.

And that is it for us here on WHAT WE KNOW. I'm Christina Macfarlane.

Stay tuned. Quest is up next with "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS".

END

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