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What We Know with Max Foster

Trump Seeks Probe Into Bill Clinton's Ties With Epstein; Maduro To Americans: Unite For Peace, "No More Endless Wars"; Trump Administration Weighs Military Operations In Venezuela; Ukraine At Least Six Killed In Russian Attacks On Kyiv; BBC Apologizes To Trump, Rejects Defamation Claim. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired November 14, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:27]

CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, CNN HOST: The U.S. president tries to shift the narrative after newly released emails from Jeffrey Epstein.

This is WHAT WE KNOW.

Donald Trump saying he will ask Attorney General Pam Bondi to investigate the convicted pedophiles ties to several high-profile Democrats and donors.

They include former President Clinton, Larry Summers and Reid Hoffman. He also wants to probe to cover the bank, JPMorgan Chase.

This just days after more emails from Epstein's estate were released in which Epstein mentioned Mr. Trump by name on multiple occasions.

Betsy Klein joins us now from West Palm Beach, Florida, where Donald Trump will be flying into this evening.

Good to see you, Betsy.

So, this is really a stunning reversal from Donald Trump and appears to be an attempt here, really, to drive attention away from himself and to

discredit that push to release all of the Epstein files.

What are you hearing and what do you make of it?

BETSY KLEIN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: That's exactly right, Christina. This has really been a remarkable series of social media posts

today from President Trump that really underscores that the president is becoming increasingly frustrated that he has been unable to shake these

persistent questions about Jeffrey Epstein, his ties to the disgraced financier. And just to back way up here during the 2024 campaign, President

Trump himself, as well as top, advocates and associates, including Attorney General Pamela Bondi, FBI Director Kash Patel, who in their personal

capacities at the time had raised questions about Jeffrey Epstein demanding transparency.

Then back in June, the FBI and Department of Justice released a memo concluding that Epstein had died by suicide and that there was no so-called

client list of powerful people. That sent MAGA world into revolt, essentially creating this loyalty test between President Trump and the

political movement that he created, as there were growing calls for transparency.

But we know that President Trump and Jeffrey Epstein had a social relationship in the 1990s, in the early 2000s, and had spent a lot of time,

including here in Palm Beach, Florida, where the president is traveling this weekend. But the president distanced himself from Jeffrey Epstein. He

said that he kicked him out of his Mar-a-Lago club. He's called him a creep.

The president has repeatedly called this issue a hoax. In his words, most recently this week as House Oversight Democrats released a series of emails

in which Epstein is linked to Trump. But next week, we expect the House of Representatives to take this key vote on releasing a tranche of Department

of Justice documents about the Jeffrey Epstein case. That is expected now to get significant support from Trump's own party. There are a number of

House Republicans that are expected to vote to release those documents.

The president announcing today that he is going to direct Attorney General Pam Bondi and the department of justice to launch a new investigation into

his own political opponents, marking what really is his most significant effort to discredit those efforts on capitol hill and turn the focus away

from himself. The president said in a post to social media earlier today, quote, "I will be asking A.G. Pam Bondi and the Department of Justice,

together with our great patriots at the FBI, to investigate Jeffrey Epstein's involvement and relationship with Bill Clinton. Larry Summers,

Reid Hoffman, JPMorgan Chase, and many other people and institutions to determine what was going on with them and him."

Now, in a separate post, the president lashed out at those lawmakers who have been calling for transparency, including Republicans, that he

described as, quote, "soft and weak" and shifting blame to the Democrats. But the president has really been uncharacteristically quiet today. He has

not taken questions from reporters. We'll see if that changes as he makes his way to Florida a little bit later this afternoon -- Christina.

MACFARLANE: Yeah, if indeed there is any response to those Truth Social posts a little a few hours ago.

Betsy, we appreciate it for now. Thank you.

Mr. Trump, meanwhile, is examining his options for possible military action in Venezuela. Sources say the president received briefings outlining his

military options this week. Already, we've seen the largest display of U.S. military power in the Caribbean since the 1980s, as the U.S. carried out

carries out deadly strikes on alleged drug trafficking boats, and there is growing pressure on Venezuela's President Nicolas Maduro.

In a CNN exclusive, Mr. Maduro spoke to CNN during a rally, saying he just wants peace now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEFANO POZZEBON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: What is your message to the people of the United States, president?

NICOLAS MADURO, PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA: To unite for the peace of the continent. No more endless wars, no more unjust wars. No more Libya, no

more Afghanistan.

POZZEBON: Do you have a message for President Trump?

MADURO: My message is, yes, peace. Yes, peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Well, our U.S. security correspondent Kylie Atwood, is tracking developments as options are being weighed there in Washington, D.C.

Kylie, so this U.S. military buildup would really suggest that action from the administration is imminent. What are you hearing about how soon we

could see that and the options that are being weighed here?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN U.S. SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: It certainly indicates that action could be imminent, but it also doesn't necessitate that, right? So,

you have a pressure campaign, a military pressure campaign that is being built up. And there is action taken against those drug boats that we have

seen over the last few months.

But the Trump administration is still not saying whether or not they are going to carry out strikes on land inside of Venezuela. And that, of

course, is what we are watching for. They are putting the military pieces into place, particularly with that massive aircraft carrier that just

arrived this week to the Caribbean to indicate that they have some firepower there to carry out military operations inside of Venezuela.

But when you talk to administration officials, even though we reported that this week President Trump was briefed on targets inside of Venezuela, they

say that the president himself has not made a decision over whether or not to move forward with those types of strikes, which could very well

complicate the U.S. involvement in the region. It's important to note that the Trump administration has drawn up a legal basis, a legal opinion for

the strikes that they are carrying out against those drug boats in the region, but they have not yet put together that legal opinion at the

Department of Justice for taking strikes on land inside of Venezuela.

And this is something that lawmakers are concerned about. They're already concerned about the legality that the Trump administration is asserting

behind their attacks on these drug boats. And so, going even further than that, there are mounting concerns about the legality of strikes inside

Venezuela. And, frankly, number one, you know, what the actual goal of those strikes would be?

The administration continues to say publicly that it is about countering drug operations. But also, we have privately heard from administration

officials who say that a secondary goal here would be the ouster of Maduro. And there is certainly no indication that the administration is putting

together a very robust plan for if Maduro is ousted, what the next days, weeks and months following that ouster would actually look like?

MACFARLANE: Yeah, still a big question really over the legal justification for any of this. But I know we'll continue to follow it.

Kylie Atwood, thank you.

Now with diplomatic talks seemingly at a standstill, the fighting in Russia's war in Ukraine has intensified. Kyiv is reeling from what the

Ukrainian mayor describes as a mass attack. Here you can see the night sky light up as Ukraine's air defenses downed Russian drones and missiles

overnight. Ukrainian officials say at least six people are dead and dozens more are injured.

Well, as the war approaches the four-year mark, Russia has been heavily investing in long range drones. Ben Wedeman has more on the latest Russian

assault on Ukraine's capital.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Flashes in the sky over Kyiv. It's another night of Russian bombardment. Ukrainian

air defenses managed to intercept most of the drones and missiles, but not all. This strike hitting the heart of the Ukrainian capital. Ukrainian

officials say the strikes killed at least six people, wounding dozens.

"Peaceful residents live here," says Kyiv resident Anastasia Shevchenko (ph). "There are no critical infrastructure facilities here. These are

residential neighborhoods, ordinary people, peaceful residents are suffering."

Officials say Russia fired almost 450 drones and missiles overnight plunging parts of Kyiv and other areas into darkness.

"My front door was blown off," recalls Maria Kalchenko (ph). "Flames were bursting out of there.

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I grabbed my dog and searched for the cats, but I couldn't find them. I made my way out to the street through a hole."

"The choice of targets is not accidental, says Kyiv Mayor, Vitali Klitschko.

VITALI KLITSCHKO, KYIV MAYOR: Kyiv is symbol of Kyiv -- symbol of Ukraine is heart of the country, and that's why, from beginning the war, always

Kyiv wasn't still target of Russian army, and especially before the winter.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): Since August, after Presidents Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin met in Alaska, Russia has focused much of its fire on

Ukraine's energy sector, depriving Ukrainians of heat and power as winter approaches.

The fire, however, is going both ways. Ukraine launched hundreds of drones at targets in Russia. At a time when diplomatic efforts to end or even

pause this war have come to naught, the people on both sides are facing the prospect of a cold, brutal and bloody winter.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACFARLANE: Well, Russia claims it thwarted a Ukrainian assassination plot that involved a high-ranking kremlin official. According to a statement

from Russia's security service, Ukrainian special services planned to target the unnamed official while he was visiting a grave outside of

Moscow. Ukraine's security service denies the report.

A horrific scene unfolded in central Stockholm on Friday, where a bus slammed into a bus stop, killing several people. Swedish police say they

arrested the bus driver. They add there were no passengers on the bus at the time of the crash and they had no information pointing to it being an

attack. Few details were given about the victims, but police did say the crash is being investigated as involuntary manslaughter.

Now the charity medical aid for Palestinians says this has been one of the hardest days in Gaza since the ceasefire began. Heavy rains flooded the

tents of displaced families, drenching mattresses, blankets and clothing, virtually everything they have. Gaza's civil defense says it received

hundreds of pleas for help, but resources are virtually nonexistent.

CNN's Nic Robertson joins us now from, Jerusalem.

And, Nic, we knew -- we know that Gazans have had very little protection from the elements, and now they are being flooded with winter coming. Tell

us what you're hearing and how much fear there is for what could come next.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, there's a huge amount of concern. This is the first big winter storm. It's not just the

rains. The temperature has really dipped here. So, people are seeing what's going to happen to them from the third straight winter.

And of course, in the more than two years of the conflict in Gaza, or almost two years of conflict in Gaza, the destruction has mounted and

mounted, and the U.N. estimates that one and a half million people desperately need emergency shelter. The estimate is that about 320,000

residential homes have been destroyed in the bombing and shelling during the war.

The result is people are out in the open in very, very flimsy tents, in buildings that are cracked and with holes. So, this first rain has really

put the people back in peril again. People have talked about the bedding being soaked, tents absolutely awash. It began about 2:30 in the morning,

ten centimeters of rain, about four inches of rain falling and flooding the sewage system. The drainage system in Gaza is largely destroyed, and you

could see that in some of the video that came out of Gaza today.

And part of the problem or the problem is exacerbated by the fact that there are tens upon tens of thousands of emergency tents and shelters

waiting in warehouses, for example, in Jordan, much to the frustration of countries like the U.K. and others and NGOs who are trying to get aid and

get that shelter into Gaza and the routes for transport haven't been open. They've not been opened by the Israelis.

And that's -- and so diplomats here, NGOs here are pointing at the Israelis and saying, look, that's where the problem is. Israel needs to get and

allow this this much needed relief from the winter weather to get in. It's desperately needed, and there's no sign either of any construction efforts

within the Palestinian area of Gaza recognizing Israel has about half of, has half of Gaza under their control.

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And the Palestinian side, there's no indication that real shelters are being built. And again, that's all because the supplies are not coming in.

And so, this is the winter that Palestinians fear they're facing. This is the winter that NGOs and diplomats are hoping they can offset by, by

getting those supplies into Gaza.

MACFARLANE: Yeah. I mean, it's just tragic, really, and frankly unacceptable that aid is within is so close, within reach. But they cannot,

of course, reach it.

Nic, we'll continue to follow this. Thank you.

Still to come, we're sorry, but we're not paying. That's the BBC's response to a Donald Trump lawsuit. We'll look at the fallout after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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MACFARLANE: The BBC has apologized to U.S. President Donald Trump over an edit of one of his speeches, but are refusing to pay any compensation. A

spokesperson for the broadcaster says they strongly reject any basis of a defamation claim. However, Trump's lawyers say the way they edited the

president's speech was false and defamatory. Trump has threatened to sue the BBC for $1 billion for their refusal to pay is unlike other

broadcasters who've been caught up in lawsuits with the U.S. president.

All networks, including ABC and CBS News parent company Paramount, have previously paid millions of dollars in settlements with Trump.

So, what we don't know is, will the BBC be forced to settle with Donald Trump?

Joining me now is CNN media analyst Sara Fischer.

Great to see you, Sara.

Look, we know here in the U.K., this has been the news of the day, and obviously it will continue to be so until we hear from President Trump. We

don't yet know how Trump's lawyers will react to the BBC's response. They may well still get the go ahead to file a suit.

How strong a position are the BBC in if they do?

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SARA FISCHER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST: Legally, they're in a very strong position for a few reasons. One, this only aired in the U.K., so for Donald Trump to

be able to say that he was on the receiving end of harm or damage to his reputation or to his election is very difficult when this interview was not

broadcast in front of U.S. voters.

Two, Donald Trump won the election shortly after this documentary came out. So, with the CBS example in which CBS settled following a Trump lawsuit,

Trump alleged voter interference. It's very hard to allege voter interference when you're a U.K. broadcaster and when Donald Trump won the

election right after. So, the BBC has a very, very strong legal claim.

The problem that they face is that no matter how strong your legal claim is, getting dragged to court, hiring lawyers, going through a whole legal

process, it drains valuable time, energy and money that nobody wants to spend. And if you think about it, if they were to settle for the same

amount that CBS and ABC settled for talking $15 million, $16 million, in some cases, that might be cheaper than a drawn out legal argument with a

trial.

So, I think the BBC has got a strong case. But for them, they have to make a lot of considerations before they immediately say that they want to

settle.

MACFARLANE: That's interesting.

FISCHER: Or to have to pay it all and fight it.

MACFARLANE: Yeah. That's interesting. I hadn't realized that that could obviously lead to massive costs stacking up for them.

And you know, you mentioned CBS there and ABC, as I was saying before, you know, the BBC isn't the first broadcaster to land in Trump's crosshairs.

ABC, CBS, you know, they're parts of a complicated corporate structure. The BBC, meanwhile, is a public broadcaster not beholden to the same commercial

pressures of politicking that they have experienced. And I'm curious as to how this is being seen and viewed in the U.S. and whether this is serving

to highlight the weaknesses of the U.S. media model, their lack of independence because of the way in which the BBC are going about this?

FISCHER: Oh, such a good question. I mean, one thing I think about all the time is how much free market capitalism can be exploited in an open

democracy. You're seeing that now with Donald Trump essentially putting his finger on the levers of the free markets when determining whether or not

these major broadcasters can engage in deals based off of essentially how he feels about their coverage.

You're right that the BBC is different. Obviously, U.K. public broadcaster not looking to engage in major M&A in the U.S. So they don't face that kind

of deal pressure that some of these other broadcasters faced. They also don't face quite exactly the same amount of regulatory oversight that the

U.S. broadcasters face, who rely on publicly traded and publicly owned spectrum.

But what the BBC does face is a fallout of trust, particularly amongst Republicans in the United States, at a time when it's trying very hard to

expand here. I've written about those expansion plans extensively. BBC has tried to rebrand its website. It's looking to get commercial advertising

dollars here in the U.S. as Ofcom threatens some of its funding in the U.K.

And so, this is a problem for the BBC. I will say, though, one thing that's sort of heartening about this whole situation is they are the sixth major

news company that Donald Trump has threatened to, or has sued in the past two years. So, at this point, it's not like the BBC is the first, and it's

not like it's an isolated situation.

Now they seem like they're one of many in Trump's playbook, which does play in their favor.

MACFARLANE: Yeah, and I mean, that said, as well, we know that Donald Trump has lobbed attacks to dismantle the free press this year. He's tried to cut

funds for PBS and NPR.

Do you see this in any way, this attack on the BBC, as an indication that the Trump administration may be extending that fight against public

broadcasting internationally?

FISCHER: Probably not. I think this is an example in which it was low hanging fruit for them. You know, the telegraph puts out its report. It's

easy to jump on it and say, okay, were going to target you. I don't think that the Trump administration is very focused on every little edit from

every interview abroad, although this might open up a can of worms.

But I think this does suggest, however, is that Donald Trump thinks and sees a much easier path in trying to wage legal threats than trying to pull

political levers to punish the media. And what do I mean by that? He could try to go to Congress and outlaw foreign broadcasters from being able to

broadcast in the U.S., but doing something like that is extraordinarily difficult because of the first amendment protections in the U.S., and it

requires political capital on Capitol Hill to get something like that passed.

[15:25:04]

So that's a waste of his time. What this demonstrates to me is that he'll always continue to push legal threats, because it's, quite frankly, an

easier political win than any sort of political lever that he could pull.

MACFARLANE: Sara, it's always great to have your analysis. And as you say, it will be interesting to see if this stymies the BBCs big ambitions that

they had for the U.S. We, of course, wait to see how this plays out. Appreciate it. Thank you.

Okay. Still to come, U.S. President Donald Trump is demanding a new investigation into the late Jeffrey Epstein as he tries to shift the

narrative away from newly released emails. Who Donald Trump wants investigated, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:29:07]

MACFARLANE: We are continuing to follow the Jeffrey Epstein scandal in the U.S. President Donald Trump is now asking the Justice Department to

investigate Epstein's ties to high profile figures and institutions. President Trump said in a post on social media, he's asking Attorney

General Pam Bondi to investigate the convicted sex offender's relationship with people like former President Bill Clinton. He also wants an

investigation into Epstein's ties to bank JPMorgan Chase.

More now from CNN's Kristen Holmes at the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, clearly, President Trump is shifting strategy here. Now, we are told that this comes

after he had heard from at least one ally on Capitol Hill that he was getting bad advice when it came to responding to the Epstein case,

particularly denying or delaying.

Now, I will tell you that for months, several of his allies, even the most outspoken conservative podcasters and hosts, have been telling the White

House, have been telling President Trump that they believe the president should shift strategies, stop being on the defensive, because what we've

really seen for the last several months is a White House that has been playing defense.

[15:30:10]

Now, when I talked to White House officials, as well as some of these allies, they say that this is because President Trump himself was the one

dictating how the response went. He did not want people getting out there ahead of stories, only reacting and calling it a hoax.

But now, we are seeing a complete shift in strategy because President Trump is going on the offensive. Now, he is asking the Department of Justice, he

is asking Pam Bondi to look into these high profile Democrats and see what their ties to Epstein were.

And I will tell you, I had two conversations yesterday with, again, high profile conservative commentators who were telling me that they thought

President Trump needed to make this about the Democrats. Here, of course, we see President Trump trying to do that, but this really does shift the

strategy in the sense that President Trump is now ensuring that this story that he has been trying to get away from for several months, is going to

stay in the spotlight at least, though, in this case, these advisers and the president himself, I'm told, believe that they can control or at least

try to control the narrative around it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACFARLANE: Well, for the legal perspective, Evan Perez is joining us now from Washington, D.C.

Good to see you, Evan.

So just put all of this in context for us if you would, legally, because it's the Justice Department who are, of course, the ones at the center of

all of this, and it's the Justice Department that dismissed this back in July, saying that they hadn't found anything that required further

investigation in the Epstein files, right?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR U.S. JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right, exactly. And what you heard from Kristen just now is sort of the political strategy that

they're trying to make now part of their legal strategy. And so, the issue now is this, the southern district of New York, prosecutors there, Jay

Clayton, the U.S. attorney, is now saddled with doing yet another review of the evidence that the Justice Department has in its possession.

Keep in mind that there are two cases that that were -- that were -- that were handled by that office. There was an investigation into Epstein. Of

course, he committed suicide before he went to trial. And then there was a case against Ghislaine Maxwell. She was convicted.

And so, what the task at hand is for them to review this, the evidence that they have and determine whether there is any new prosecutions that need to

be done. Of course, the president is saying that those are going to be focused on Democrats, but any good prosecutor, if they're going to do their

job properly, is going to have to look at everyone in those documents to see whether there's anything there.

Here's the thing -- before that July statement that you just talked about, the Justice Department, the FBI did a review. They looked at to see whether

there was any new prosecutions, any new crimes that could be prosecuted. And they found that there wasn't. That's the reason why they issued that

statement saying there are no more cases that could be brought.

And so, the question is, will this new look find anything different than they found earlier this summer? And of course, the other part of this is

this, that while this, this new ongoing investigation is going on, it means that whatever Congress is doing, whatever that discharge petition, whatever

happens with that, it means that there are no documents that are going to be released by the Justice Department, because generally under during the

time that they're doing an investigation, they will not release any of those documents.

So, we get to live with this story for at least another few months, perhaps years. We don't know, or in perpetuity. We'll see how long this goes.

MACFARLANE: And on and on it goes. Evan, appreciate it all.

PEREZ: God bless us all.

MACFARLANE: Godspeed. Thank you.

Now, it's the final moments on trade on Wall Street, and stocks are mixed today. The Dow jones slipping. But paring some of its earlier losses. The

Nasdaq and the S&P 500 rebounding today. But the tech heavy Nasdaq is still on course to snap its seven week winning streak because of Thursdays

pullback.

This is our business breakout.

The U.S. government is back open. But it's going to take a moment before everything gets back to normal. Federal employees are expected to start

receiving their back pay, and SNAP food aid is set to be restored by Monday. But flying may still be a bit messy. Flights continue to be delayed

or canceled as the FAA cuts traffic, citing safety concerns.

The Trump administration is lowering the tariff it slapped on Switzerland back in August. The new rate for Swiss imports will now be 15 percent

instead of 39 percent. As part of the new trade deal, Swiss companies are planning direct investments in the U.S. of $200 billion by the end of 2028.

One of the internet's oldest shopping sites is embracing new technology. This past year alone, eBay has introduced five new A.I. features to assist

customers for a better shopping experience.

[15:35:03]

Investors like it, too; eBay shares are up more than those of tech heavy Microsoft, Meta and Amazon.

And YouTube creator MrBeast is embarking on a new venture. What he's calling the craziest thing he's ever done. Now, you may know the YouTube

star from his outlandish videos of obstacle courses like challenges and contestants, where contestants compete for cash prizes.

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MRBEAST, YOUTUBE CREATOR: Behind me are 100 people, and they range from the age one all the way through age 100. And I've trapped each of them in their

very own glass cube, the last one to leave their cube is going to win half a million dollars. The challenge has officially --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Well, he has 450 million subscribers on his channel, more than anyone else in the world. And now he's bringing his online antics to life

in Saudi Arabia.

CNN's Bijan Hosseini has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BIJAN HOSSEINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: MrBeast just opened a theme park. Check out this video he posted.

MRBEAST: This thing is the craziest thing I've ever done.

HOSSEINI: Visitors to Beast Land, yes, that's what it's called, can actually try real life challenges from MrBeast's YouTube videos. Some of

the games include launching balls from catapults, hidden trapdoors, and zipline drops, just to name a few.

MRBEAST: People ask me all the time --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MrBeast, I want to compete in one of your videos.

MRBEAST: Well, now you can. This theme park is filled with some of the craziest challenges and most insane prizes we have ever given away.

HOSSEINI: MrBeast, the most popular YouTuber on the planet, opened the theme park in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. When asked on X why he chose Saudi as a

location, he replied, middle of the world, because a majority of my audience is outside America and we have a big Middle Eastern fan base, we

wanted to give them a chance to participate.

There are three different ticket tiers, starting at $7 and going all the way up to $66 for the top level, called Beast mode plus. That includes

access to all of the games, rides, and challenges. Park is only open for a limited amount of time through December 27th, and it's part of Riyadh

season. It's the country's annual entertainment and tourism festival, which brings concerts, pop-up attractions and massive celebrity events to the

capital.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACFARLANE: Now coming up, a hard-working politician that may be working too hard. How the work ethics of Japan's first female prime minister is

creating a controversy, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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MACFARLANE: Japan's new prime minister appears to be a workaholic. Last week, broadcaster NHK reported that Sanae Takaichi had begun her workday at

3:00 a.m. as she prepared for an important session with parliaments budget committee. Takaichi is Japan's first female prime minister and is known for

skipping social gatherings in favor of work. The early morning study session is drawing some criticism in Japan, where there are concerns that

some people fail to find a good work life balance.

So, what we want to know is what are the signs that someone is overworked?

Joining me now is Ellen Ernst Kossek, a leading social scientist and workplace expert.

Great to see you.

I would go as far as saying, Ellen, that a lot of us think we are workaholics, but 3:00 a.m. meetings and two-hour sleep, I think, is taking

it to the next level. What alarm bells does that raise for you?

ELLEN ERNST KOSSEK, SOCIAL SCIENTIST: Well, I think I want to congratulate the prime minister for being committed to her job but I agree with you that

3:00 a.m. is extreme for her subordinates. And the alarm bells are, if, you know, basically, you're working where to the extreme, where its affecting

health and well-being.

So, sleep is very important for well-being of people who work for the prime minister. And I would hope that this isn't a regular occurrence, but I do

understand that she got questions very late to go up against the parliament. But it concerns me that this is the style being set from the

beginning.

MACFARLANE: Yeah. And I know that you have experience of Japanese work culture that has been described by some as brutal. How is it that the work

ethic in Japan has evolved to be that way?

KOSSEK: I mean, one hand, Japan is something that should be admired, the hardworking culture. and I remember you know, many U.S. companies were

always interested in interviewing me about the style and hard work. So, I like the work ethic, but I think moving more toward work life balance where

you're not overworking. So, death by overwork is something that Japan has also been known for.

And is, on the one hand, the prime minister's coming new. She is a, you know, woman leader in a traditionally more, male-dominated culture. So

perhaps she's trying to also show she's tough, but and the culture in Japan is where subordinates do value seniority and look up to the leader. So, she

will set the tone for the rest of her office.

And I think perhaps there might be other ways to have good preparation. And we should only have meetings like this when there's an emergency, in my

opinion.

MACFARLANE: Yes. I mean, look, we know that sort of culturally work ethic varies across the globe. France, for instance, are very different, very

different here in the U.K. But in your -- with the research that you've done, what is the appropriate number of working hours? In order to get the

best out of employees, but also to ensure that you're prioritizing their well-being.

KOSSEK: Well, I think part of this is, biological and part of this is cultural. And as we know, different occupations have different norms. So,

for example consultants startup employees, peak doctors might work more than 40 hours a week, right? But -- and full time is often defined by the

industry. So, in a nursing home, maybe 32 hours a week would be -- could be up, you know, starting full time with benefits. It varies around the globe.

To me, excessive working hours would be where people feel they can't control other parts of their life, such as having time to exercise, being

with a family, not being able to eat healthy meals and commute. So, it varies across industry.

[15:45:00]

But I do want to say that, you know, probably over, you know, 50 hours a week. You're probably not getting great returns.

MACFARLANE: And just briefly, because, you know, I know there's been a number of studies conducted on this already. Are you a fan -- and

obviously, it will vary depending on the industry. But are you a fan of the idea of a four-day week?

KOSSEK: Once again, it depends on how it's implemented. We have a lot of great policies. I've just done a study of encouraging leaders to support

use of sick and family leave policies, but in a downsizing economy or workaholic economy, people don't use the policies they have. Four-day work

week. It would depend on how it's implemented. I'm just participated in a conference on that in the U.K. But if it's long ten hour days, for some

people, that might be hard for childcare commutes.

So, it just -- all depends on how it's implemented and if there is some flexibility for people who have family or other needs. I once did a study

at a grocery store where someone couldn't get off work to go to the doctor for occupational health therapy. And they had some injury in their hands.

So, I think it's -- there is -- it's flexibility plus hours per week that matter I think for a healthy life.

MACFARLANE: Yes. I was just going to say flexibility is the key message here, isn't it? As we know, of course, that the situation varies very much

very different for men, for women, for young, for old.

Ellen, it's great to have your thoughts. Thank you.

Well, we're turning now to a story out of South Korea. That sounds like something out of a spy novel. South Korean prosecutors say that country's

former president used drones to provoke North Korea into a military confrontation. They add his goal was to declare martial law and seize more

power in South Korea.

CNN's Will Ripley has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Explosive new evidence linking South Korea's martial law crisis to mystery drone

flights in North Korea, a secret plot, prosecutors say could have triggered a war. They now accuse former President Yoon Suk Yeol of deliberately

trying to provoke North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, authorizing covert drone missions to push Kim into a crisis.

Recovered memos appear to confirm what North Korea claimed last fall that drones from the south crossed deep into their territory, dropping anti-

government leaflets near sensitive sites, even over what's believed to be Kim Jong Un's residence.

One memo says, must find and exploit a once in a lifetime opportunity. We must create an unstable situation. Another lists, targets meant to make the

north lose face.

Kim Jong Un's powerful younger sister, Kim Yo-jong, issued a fiery statement at the time, warning the South of severe consequences. Within

days, North Korea blew up two cross-border roads, stopping just short of military retaliation, a response that could have sparked a wider crisis.

Prosecutors say Yoon wanted that crisis, one he could have used to declare martial law and consolidate power.

KIM BYUNG-JOO, RETIRED KOREAN ARMY GENERAL: It's absolutely horrifying. If this turns out to be true, it would be an unforgivable crime against the

people.

RIPLEY (voice-over): Retired South Korean General Kim Byung-joo also says Kim Jong Un may have held back because more than 10,000 North Korean troops

were already fighting in Russia, making a second front too risky.

Weeks after those covert drone missions, President Yoon declared martial law, citing a North Korean threat, without evidence. Armed soldiers stormed

South Korea's parliament. Lawmakers pushed past them, overturning the decree within hours.

Yoon denies ordering the drones and denies any attempt to manufacture a national security crisis.

RIPLEY: Prosecutors say this investigation is far from over. They're still investigating military data, deleted files and testimony from officers who

operated the drones. If the allegations are proven, former President Yoon could face life in prison. South Korea's military has not commented on this

case, citing the ongoing legal proceedings.

Will Ripley, CNN, Hong Kong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACFARLANE: Now, still to come, Ronaldo sees red. The Portuguese superstar sent off in his country's World Cup qualifier last night, putting his final

World Cup campaign in jeopardy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:52:11]

MACFARLANE: Now, just days after telling CNN next year's World Cup would be his last, Portuguese superstar Cristiano Ronaldo has been sent off during

his country's World Cup qualifier against Ireland, losing two-nil in the second half. Ronaldo elbowed Ireland's Dara O'Shea. It means he could miss

the first two games of the World Cup if Portugal qualifies.

Here's a reminder of what Ronaldo told our Becky Anderson earlier this week about his footballing future.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Do you expect this World Cup to be your last? Do you.?

CRISTIANO RONALDO, PORTUGUESE FORWARD: Definitely yes, because I will be 41 years old and I think will be the moment, and in a big competition that's

to -- I don't know yet. As I told you before, I enjoyed the moment, but when I mean soon, it's really soon because I give everything for football.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Patrick Snell is with me.

Oh, he spoke too soon, didn't he, Patrick?

PATRICK SNELL, CNN WORLD SPORT: He did.

MACFARLANE: And I watched that clip back. And honestly, that elbow seemed entirely, you know, unnecessary.

SNELL: Yeah, I think it was frustrations, Chrissy. It was -- he's an emotional person, you know, on and off the pitch. But I think the

frustrations got to him there. His team were losing the match to the Republic of Ireland.

And I just think, you know, you know, if it's going to be his last World Cup and Portugal, if they do qualify, then he's not starting it in the best

possible way. Is he? Portugal have got to get the job done though. They've got to qualify.

But just for the record, Chrissy, CR7 sent off for the very first time when playing for his country and that's quite an unwanted stat.

Anyway, let's get on to the action. Ronaldo was Portugal's captain against the Republic of Ireland for a game. His side? Well, he knew that his team

had to get the win here to secure qualification for next year's tournament over here in North America. But they found themselves, surprisingly two

goals to nil, down two goals, actually from Troy Parrott. Parrott will remember this night for a long time to come.

But Ronaldo, as I say, feeling the frustrations, he just flings out an elbow there. It's a swing of the elbow. Petulance really. Just after an

hour or so. Initially, if you watch this pretty closely, he gets the yellow card and then no, they think better of it. And the yellow becomes a red.

Vir upgraded it to a red. So Ronaldo, given his marching orders for the first time, as I say, while playing for the Portuguese national team, and

that is, over 200 appearances, 226 appearances. It means he will definitely miss Portugal's match against Armenia this coming weekend on Sunday, when

they know a win, and that one will definitely guarantee them a place at next year's World Cup.

But I think just a case of watch this space, Chrissy, in terms of whether Ronaldo will miss the start of the group stages of the qualification -- if

they qualify for next year's World Cup, I feeling is probably maybe just one game. It could potentially be three. I will say you can see the

emotions there.

It's not a good look for him. It's not a moment he will have enjoyed. He's a very proud, proud footballer for both club and country.

All eyes now on the FIFA disciplinary committee. Will it be one match? Will it be -- will it be up to three? We're watching it all very, very closely

indeed.

Chrissy, back to you.

MACFARLANE: Yeah, 220 games. And this his first red card. That is a remarkable stat, isn't it?

SNELL: Yeah.

MACFARLANE: Patrick, thank you.

Okay, finally tonight, a very happy birthday to his majesty King Charles III. The British monarch is 77 today. To mark the occasion, Buckingham

Palace has released this photo of the king taken at the spring at the Sandringham estate in Norfolk, England, earlier today. Charles and Queen

Camilla traveled to Wales, where the king was given a birthday cake in the shape of a local castle.

And in London, gun salutes were fired near Buckingham Palace and by tower bridge, fitting tribute to a 77th birthday for our king.

I'm Christina Macfarlane and that is WHAT WE KNOW.

Stay with CNN. We'll have much more coming up after the break.

END

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