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What We Know with Max Foster
Iran Enters Third Week Of Anti-Government Protests; Trump: Looking At "Very Strong" Military Options On Iran; Prosecutors Open Criminal Probe Into Fed Chair Powell; Trump Tells Cuba: "Make A Deal Before It's Too Late"; Pope Leo Meets With Venezuela's Maria Corina Machado. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired January 12, 2026 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:28]
MAX FOSTER, CNN HOST: Hundreds may be dead in Iran with the White House discussing military options.
This is WHAT WE KNOW about it.
The death toll climbing in Iran as the ruling theocracy escalates its crackdown on protesters there. A U.S. based human rights group says more
than 500 people have been killed in just two weeks.
The growing protests are fueled by a freefalling economy, soaring inflation and unemployment, and a complete Internet blackout in the country has now
lasted more than four days. That makes it difficult, of course, to assess precisely what's happening on the ground.
Nada Bashir is there though.
You have been getting videos throughout, though, haven't you, by Starlink, for example? But we're not seeing as many anti-government demos today, and
we're obviously seeing more pro-government demos.
BASHIR: That's right. The government over state media has been broadcasting these enormous rallies that have been taking place in support
of the government of the Islamic regime. That is something that they called for. They called for Iranians to take to the streets to demonstrate in
support of the government in the regime.
But of course, this is all being carried and broadcast by state-run media. What we're not getting as much of is the video coming out from on the
ground from protesters, showing the scale of the demonstrations that we have continued to see since late December.
And as you mentioned, there is that total Internet communications blackout. This is by design. We've seen the Iranian regime do this before. This is
one of their tactics to prevent videos, evidence coming out and being shared with the world. It makes it more difficult for protesters to
organize.
But also, one of the crucial things is that it makes it more difficult for the rest of the world to see the violent crackdown that is taking place.
And we have had snippets and trickles of video coming out showing just that. The crackdown that is involved live ammunition, according to some
human rights organizations, more than 500 protesters killed so far, thousands detained.
So, we are really seeing that crackdown really ramping up.
FOSTER: It's going to be a very brave protester that goes on the streets tomorrow after this.
But I guess they expected to see the crackdown because this is the normal process. So, after these crackdowns, what does normally happen? Does it
work?
BASHIR: We haven't seen a protest of this sort in the past that has been so broadly focused on a variety of issues. Of course, we remember the woman
life freedom protest around women's rights, around freedom to dress how you want to dress, freedom of political expression as well, of course.
But this protest has really evolved, gained momentum and morphed into something far greater, encompassing a whole range of grievances with the
regime of issues. It is involving a huge variety of Iranians. The demographic split is huge. We're talking about Iranians from different
religious sects, from different ethnic backgrounds, different age groups.
FOSTER: All struggling to make ends meet, basically.
BASHIR: Exactly. And that is what is at the core, the economic crisis. Daily life has become so difficult. People are struggling to pay their
rent, buy food, buy medicine. That is at the core. But of course, there are so many other grievances around this protest movement from women's rights,
from freedom of expression, freedom of political association, so many different issues. And I think that is what has made this protest movement
so different.
But of course, the crackdown, the repression by the regime has been so strong and significant. And of course, we have only seen just a fraction of
it right now. We're still waiting to see the full extent of that crackdown, when people are actually able to share their testimonies of what has
happened, whether that is enough to tamp down these protests. Of course, we'll be waiting to see.
FOSTER: Nada, thank you.
Both Iran and the U.S. are signaling they are open to dialogue. U.S. President Trump says Tehran called to negotiate as his administration
weighs a series of potential military options. Iran's foreign minister says that whilst the country is ready for war, it would be open to, quote, "fair
and dignified negotiations". Several U.S. Democrats argue military plans for Iran need to be brought before Congress, before any action is taken.
Here's what the White House had to say about the president's next steps.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think one thing President Trump is, is very good at is always keeping all of his options on the
table, and airstrikes would be one of the many, many options that are on the table for the commander in chief. Diplomacy is always the first option
for the president. He's told all of you last night that what you're hearing publicly from the Iranian regime is quite differently from the messages the
administration is receiving privately.
And I think the president has an interest in exploring those messages. However, with that said, the president has shown he's unafraid to use
military options if and when he deems necessary.
[15:05:00]
And nobody knows that better than Iran.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Natasha Bertrand joins us live from Washington. A lot of people focusing there on the threat of military action.
But what she's really saying is they want to try negotiation first, right? So, what would that be based on? What does America want?
NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, according to sources who have spoken to some of my colleagues here, that would include a
negotiation over Iran's nuclear program. And according to sources, as well as something that Karoline Leavitt there alluded to earlier today, that has
already begun in the form of some communication between Trump's special envoy, Steve Witkoff, and the Iranians. The Iranians have also, of course,
been making phone calls to the U.K. and to other U.S. allies to discuss this issue.
And so that could be one way to try to entice the United States to try to choose diplomacy over some kind of military option, at least to begin with.
However, there are several other options that are nonmilitary. Also, at the president's disposal. If he decides to hit the Iranian regime in
retaliation for their use of force against protesters.
And those include cyber -- offensive cyber operations to try to target the way that the regime has been cracking down on protesters in cyberspace. Of
course, cutting off their internet access. It could also include new sanctions.
But ultimately, you know, the president has been very strongly hinting at the possibility that he could try to do some kind of decapitation strike on
the Iranian regime, trying to take out either the leadership or take out the security services that have been engaging in this kind of behavior
against the protesters. Obviously, that would be very, very difficult. Iran is very different from Venezuela, and it's unclear how they would actually
do that, how they would go about that.
But for now, it seems that the president is inclined, at least before this big meeting tomorrow, that he has with his top national security officials,
in which they're going to further discuss options to let Steve Witkoff continue to have these conversations with the Iranians, see what they have
to offer, and perhaps see if those negotiations lead to Iran, perhaps pulling back on some of its behavior against those protesters.
FOSTER: Okay, Natasha, thank you.
The head of the Federal Reserve refuting a criminal investigation launched against him by federal prosecutors. The probe is related to the central
bank's $2.5 billion renovation of its headquarters, which was criticized by President Donald Trump as being too expensive.
Jerome Powell says he believes the investigation is actually linked to the Fed's refusal to cut interest rates, based on President Trump's desires.
Powell put his case across in an unusually direct term for a central banker.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEROME POWELL, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: This new threat is not about my testimony last June or about the renovation of the Federal Reserve
buildings. Those are pretexts. The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best
assessment of what will serve the public, rather than following the preferences of the president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski, posting this scathing statement on X, saying after speaking with Chair Powell this morning, it's clear the
administration's investigation is nothing more than an attempt at coercion. She goes on to say that Congress needs to investigate the Department of
Justice. This as Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren likened Trump to a dictator.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Acting like a wannabe dictator that he is, Trump is trying to push out the chairman of the Federal Reserve board and
complete his corrupt takeover of America's Central Bank so that it serves his interests along with his billionaire friends.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Well, the conservative economist Kevin Hassett is the odds on favorite to become Jerome Powell's successor. He's one of the president's
top economic advisers. He says the Fed chair should welcome the investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN HASSETT, DIRECTOR, U.S. NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: I guess the question is if you think the building costs $20 billion or $10 billion, do
you think at some point that it's appropriate for the federal government to investigate? And it seems like the Justice Department has decided that they
want to see what's going on over there with this building that's, you know, massively more expensive than any building in the history of Washington.
And if I were Fed chair, I would want them to do that. I think that it's really important to understand where the taxpayer money goes and to
understand why it goes this way or that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Jerome Powell isn't the first Trump adversary, of course, to be targeted by the Justice Department. But he is the first to be currently
employed by the federal government.
Former FBI Director James Comey and New York Attorney General Letitia James were both indicted by the DOJ. Those cases were later dismissed. John
Bolton was Mr. Trump's national security advisor during his first term, but has since turned into a Trump critic. He's facing charges of allegedly
transmitting classified material.
Stephen Collinson joins me now from Washington.
I mean, it was noticeable that there was a market reaction to this latest move on the Fed because it needs to be independent to keep the confidence
of the economic system, as it were.
[15:10:08]
You know, Trump's got to thread very carefully with this, hasn't he?
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: That's right. And he has been ratcheting up this campaign against Powell for months, step by step. I
think partly he hasn't gone further before this because he doesn't want to upset the markets.
But you're right. The -- this is not just about a personal feud between President Trump and Jerome Powell. This is about potentially an attack on
the independence of the U.S. Central Bank by a president, the U.S. Central Bank, the Federal Reserve, is hugely crucial to not just America's economic
engine, but the idea that it is independent from political interference is a bulwark for the global economy.
So, this controversy could well mushroom far outside the United States, Max.
FOSTER: What if it is, what if Donald Trump is just concerned about an overspend? I mean, it was a hugely expensive project, right? What if it is
just as simple as that?
COLLINSON: Well, you know, it does sound a little bit fishy, to be fair enough. You know, you can raise the question. It does sound quite a lot of
money for a rebuilding project, but at the same time, Donald Trump as president has ballooned the U.S. debt over two terms.
He has accepted a jumbo jet gift from Qatar. He's not too worried about spending in pursuit of his own priorities. He's even talking about buying
Greenland.
So the idea that the president is solely interested in cutting down on government spending here, I think, is a little bit difficult to believe
also because, as you showed, that picture of Trump's opponents who have had legal problems, he made no secret of the fact when he was running for
office that he planned to use the Justice Department, which, in previous years has been seen to be somewhat independent of the White House as a
vessel for going after his political opponents.
So he's sending a message to the next person who runs the Federal Reserve, who he'll nominate in May that the president's word on interest rates and
everything else stands, or there's going to be trouble. And it's not just Jerome Powell he's talking about. He's talking about other people in the
government.
One interesting wrinkle about all of this is you showed that tweet from Lisa Murkowski, the Republican senator. Trump's intervention here may make
it harder for him to get that new Federal Reserve chief, which he's hankered after for months, actually confirmed by the Senate. It wouldn't
take, more than about another two or three senators to say on the Republican side, we're not going to vote for a replacement until this issue
of Jerome Powell's criminal investigation is wrapped up for Trump to be not able to get a friendlier Federal Reserve chief into the job, and that would
make it, oddly enough, even harder for him to cut interest rates, as he wants to do.
FOSTER: Yeah, exactly. Stephen, thank you so much.
Mexico's president says she's had a very good conversation with Donald Trump and says U.S. military action in Mexico has been ruled out for now.
President has threatened to strike drug cartels inside Mexico. However, Claudia Sheinbaum says the pair agreed to work together on security issues,
including drug trafficking.
Cuba's leader, meanwhile, has pushed back on Trump's demand that the Caribbean nation make a deal with Washington. Havana has long received aid
packages from oil rich Venezuela, but that's at risk following the U.S. capture of ousted Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro.
It's not clear what type of a deal Trump is asking for, though.
Patrick Oppmann has reaction from Cuba.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PATRICK OPPMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Cuba's president this morning denying that there are talks going on, saying that the only conversations
happening between the Cubans and the U.S. are simply about migration matters, which is a constant theme these two governments talk about, but
also leaving the door open, saying that they're willing to talk to the U.S. they've always been willing to talk to us, but again, denying that these
high level conversations are actually taking place, the conversations that president Donald Trump alluded to.
It was certainly the Cuban government has long said that the Cubans that left, particularly those who left after the revolution, took power, really
lost the rights to property, to citizenship, and that these, of course, have been many of them, their mortal enemies over the decades. Despite this
back and forth, you know, he said/she said kind of thing going on is that the U.S. does appear to control what oil is leaving Venezuela, and oil is
not coming to Cuba at the moment.
This is oil that Cuba desperately needs. You know, all our reporting over the last year or so about Cuba's energy crisis, when you add the fact that
Cuba can no longer count on Venezuela for the oil that has kept the lights when they are on, has kept them on, really paints a dire picture for Cuba.
[15:15:08]
It's almost impossible to think how this islands economy would continue on if they did not have that Venezuelan oil. Yes, Mexico sends oil. Yes,
Russia on occasion sends oil. But it's really been Venezuela throughout the years that has sent millions of barrels of oil at a vastly discounted
price, often for free, out of solidarity.
That solidarity apparently has come to an end. It appears as the U.S., according to President Donald Trump, is calling the shots in Venezuela. So,
certainly, for the government in Havana, while they are bristling at this talk, the reality is they are in a very, very tight spot here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOSTER: Still to come tonight, it's a big week for Venezuela's opposition leader, Maria Machado wraps her meeting up with Pope Leo ahead of a
conversation with President Trump.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FOSTER: Well, the future of Venezuela's leadership remains in question. Opposition leader Maria Corina Machado is set to meet with President Trump
on Thursday. The visit comes after Mr. Trump said it will be hard for Machado to lead Venezuela under the current circumstances. The U.S.
arrested Nicolas Maduro earlier this month and the woman, who was serving as his vice president is now the current acting president.
Today, Machado wrapped up a visit to the Vatican. The Nobel Prize winner had a private meeting with Pope Leo XIV. Machado says she asked the pope to
pressure Caracas to release political prisoners.
So what we want to know is, can the pope help bring stability to Venezuela?
Joining me now is our Vatican correspondent, Christopher Lamb.
I mean, there is a history of pope's getting involved in trying to resolve issues, but they've got to stay out of politics, haven't they?
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's the key thing. And that's what Pope Leo has been trying to do since his election, to try
and be a peacemaker, bring people from different sides together.
[15:20:02]
Behind the scenes, quiet mediation is the hallmark of Vatican diplomacy. They have done this kind of thing before in Latin America. Pope Francis was
involved in U.S.-Cuba normalization of relations. Pope Leo. Of course, does have a good experience in Latin America. He lived and worked in Peru for
many years.
So, I think the key thing for him is to try and open channels of dialogue with the different parties and political prisoners. Having them released is
something the Vatican has done in the past, too. Obviously, it's difficult for the pope because, you know, polarization and people not wanting to
compromise, but the fact that they met the pope and Machado before she goes to Washington to see President Trump is, I think, quite significant.
FOSTER: What do we understand of his relationship with Trump so far?
LAMB: Well, it's a very good question. We don't have any confirmation that they've actually spoken. Trump has met Pope Leo's brother, Louis Prvost,
who is a big MAGA supporter. There has been communication between Washington and the Vatican over various matters, but it hasn't got, as far
as we know, to the level of the pope and the president speaking or having a meeting, but that would be the next stage, I imagine, in any kind of
mediation.
FOSTER: Do you imagine the pope could put himself almost at the presidents disposal to, you know, provide a seat for negotiations of some kind?
LAMB: Yeah. Well, that's exactly what they would try to do at the Vatican.
FOSTER: Yeah.
LAMB: Would be to offer a neutral space --
FOSTER: Yes.
LAMB: -- to bring the parties together, you know, remember Pope Francis's funeral? There was that iconic moment when President Zelenskyy and Trump
spoke briefly before the funeral started in St. Peter's. It would be that kind of thing that they want to do.
FOSTER: He's been pretty clear, though. You know, the warmongering that a lot of people talk about in the world. And a lot of people would argue that
Donald Trump isn't helping that situation. But I guess you just have to avoid that type of language.
LAMB: Well, yes, I think that's what Pope Leo is trying to do. He's very careful in the language he uses. He doesn't want to inflame tensions or
polarization. Of course, the first American pope elected at a time of great instability. In a way, Leo sort of is a counterbalance in some ways to
what's happening in the U.S., in the White House.
So, he's trying to be, in a sense, offer a different way to what we see in some political quarters.
FOSTER: Okay. Thank you so much, Christopher, for joining us.
Now, an ongoing internet blackout has made it extremely difficult to get a full picture of what's going on in Iran right now. Still to come, hidden
camera video from behind the walls of the regime's censorship.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:26:10]
FOSTER: Nationwide anti-government protests in Iran are growing amid a brutal crackdown. A U.S. based rights group says Iranian authorities have
arrested around 10,000 protesters. More than 500 others have been killed. That death toll, sadly very likely to rise. Meanwhile, one source says
Iran's foreign minister has reached out to U.S. special envoy Steve Witkoff, a U.S. officials tell CNN president Donald Trump is weighing a
series of options on Iran.
More now from CNN's Jomana Karadsheh. We warn you some images in her report are disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From behind the walls of the Iranian regime's censorship, a chilling video has emerged. Every moment
of what may be a hidden camera reveals a terrifying picture of what's been unfolding on the ground. They butchered him, this morning, wails.
The camera drifts past grief, not lingering long enough for us to be able to tell the stories of loss and pain of so many who gathered at the
Kahrizak forensic medical center outside Tehran, searching among rows and rows of body bags that line the courtyard for loved ones missing at the
same facility. Lines of lifeless bodies are stored in a warehouse turned morgue. Inside the center, distraught family members stand anxiously in
front of a screen that flashes photos of the dead family.
They page the family of a man named Mohammed, who he and others were, how they were killed is hard for us to verify.
State media had its own pictures and narrative from the Kahrizak forensic institute, reporting. The majority of bodies are those of ordinary
citizens. They blame their deaths, like the protests on foreign backed terrorists carrying out what they say are indiscriminate killings. These
pictures the regime decided to air perhaps, a warning to those who dare take to the streets.
It's almost impossible for us to get real time updates from Iran, the regimes shut down communications across the country on Thursday, just as
nationwide protests against the clerical establishment drew larger crowds to the streets of every province. It's a tactic out of its playbook on
crushing dissent cover. It's used in the past to unleash bloody force.
The little testimony and images that have been trickling out only a small window into what a ruthless regime doesn't want the world to see. Video
like this that purportedly captures the feared state security forces out on the streets is slowly surfacing, sent out by those who are risking their
lives to get it out.
In this one location, an estimated 250 bodies with hundreds more confirmed killed elsewhere, according to activists. The world now braces for what may
come when Iran finally emerges from the dark.
Jomana Karadsheh, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOSTER: What we don't know, then, is when would these Iranian protests turn into a revolution? Two very different things.
Joining me now is Negar Mortazavi. She's the host of the Iran podcast.
Appreciate you joining us today, Nagar.
It was inevitable, wasn't it, this crackdown, once we knew about the Internet blackout. We are getting less reports of anti-government protests
today. What do you say about the government's success in quelling these protests?
[15:30:05]
NEGAR MORTAZAVI, SENIOR FELLOW, CENTER FOR INTERNATIONAL POLICY: Well, yes, as you said, the communication shut down is usually an indication, as
we've seen in the past that, violent crackdown, deadly crackdown in the form of iron fist is going to come. And that's what we saw. Images and
reports are slowly coming from the country, as your report also showed.
And this was also combined with the statements of the supreme leader and senior leadership that they're going to take to do whatever it takes to
essentially end and crush the protest. There's also -- there has been, an added layer to these protests of violence, of vandalism, which is
absolutely not the majority and not in every city and town. But that's something that the state has used or abused as an excuse for, for this mass
crackdown and this iron fist approach that they've done before. And again, they unleashed this time.
FOSTER: What's happened to the momentum? Do you think there were so many very confident people out? The demos were spreading. They were talking
about a revolution.
But at this point, we can only say they were protests, can't we? Because revolution becomes a very different thing, because there's a momentum there
that is basically unstoppable.
MORTAZAVI: When we see people on the ground and also some of us observing from the outside, it did feel different. I want to emphasize that but part
of that is also the pent-up anger, because protests in Iran keep happening every couple of few years. The last round, 2022 before that 2019, we have
seen mass protests because the regime is dealing with a very serious legitimacy crisis, and it's dangerous because it's not addressed. The
grievances are not addressed. So, people come back every time with even more anger. And also a feeling, that they have nothing to lose.
And that's why they put their lives on the front line. But that hasn't translated into an existential threat to the regime yet. And minus any form
of foreign intervention and military intervention from the outside, I just don't see the protesters really bring this to a tipping point that would
become very serious for the regime.
FOSTER: Yeah, intervention would come from the U.S., Israel, perhaps both of them, Donald Trump, make it pretty clear he is not ruling out military
strikes, but he's not going to go in on the ground. But he's really focusing on negotiation.
What? I mean, what would that look like? If you're talking about negotiation, then the regime stays in place, doesn't it?
MORTAZAVI: Yes. Well, first of all, its very confusing. So, which is it? Because these are two opposites and let's say negotiations. The
negotiations did happen the first few months of the administration, six rounds and the seventh round was scheduled for that weekend, right, and
right before the Israelis attacked Iran and the U.S. joined the attack.
So right now, the mistrust between Tehran and Washington is very high. Essentially, the Iranians are saying, is this really an approach for
diplomacy, or is this just a ruse for more military attacks to come? That's one point.
As far as intervention that's going to look like, because if there's no boots on the ground, we rule out Iraq and Afghanistan models. What is this
going to look like? I need -- we need to see a success story in the Middle East. You know, U.S. military intervention in the Middle East doesn't
really have a successful track record.
Is this sort of a Libya model? Sustained airstrikes? Is the president going to commit to long term, or is it going to be short term, like an
assassination, like the bombing of the Iranian nuclear sites? And how exactly is that going to strengthen or essentially bring a collapse in the
country as it unleashing more chaos, more instability, or is it just going to lead to things getting better?
These are all very important questions depending on what the model is going to look like.
FOSTER: Yeah, it's difficult to work out what's going to happen.
Negar, thank you for joining us with your insights today.
It's the final moments of trade on Wall Street. Stocks are relatively flat. The Dow Jones spent most of the day in the red on the back of news that the
DOJ is investigating Fed Chair Jerome Powell, but it's recovered those losses, as you can see.
This is our business breakout.
Two of the biggest tech companies in the world, Google and Apple, are teaming up. Apple says it plans to use Google's artificial intelligence
model Gemini, to power the newest version of its voice assistant, Siri. The iPhone maker is hoping the updated Siri could help boost device sales after
several rocky years.
Now, U.S. president Donald Trump says he is likely to keep oil company Exxon out of Venezuela. He says he didn't like ExxonMobil's CEO, warning
that Venezuela is uninvestable in its current state. Trump said he'll personally decide which U.S. companies can enter Venezuela and rebuild its
oil infrastructure.
[15:35:04]
And former Donald Trump adviser Dina Powell McCormick has been named president and vice president or chairman rather of Meta, which owns
Facebook and Instagram. The company says she'll help guide the company's overall strategy. She was Mr. Trump's deputy national security adviser
during his first term.
Elon Musk's Grok has been blocked by Indonesia and Malaysia. They are the first countries to do so after the A.I. tools digital undressing function
began flooding the Internet with fake pornographic images. Pressure has been mounting for Musk to rein grok in over the viral trend. Grok says it
has limited some image generation features to paid subscribers, and said in the past, it has suspended accounts and worked with law enforcement.
Our media correspondent Hadas Gold has been tracking this story for us.
Hadas, thanks for joining us.
I mean, one of the things that makes this story different is that this isn't an A.I. that you can ask to do things for you, that you can download
to your phone and then publish. You can actually speak to Grok, can't you? I mean, a lot of people not on the platform might be confused by this. You
can actually ask Grok to produce something which it then publishes, which appears to be a large part of the problem. Here it is publishing porn, even
if it's been directed by a user.
HADAS GOLD, CNN MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's other A.I. image generation out there. This is an argument Elon Musk has actually been
making that can digitally undress people and do some of these things. Now, I should say a lot of those other A.I. platforms, I've tested them out.
They do have pretty high guardrails when it comes to creating any of these sort of pornographic images, and X and Grok have always been well known to
be way more explicit in allowing the sort of this sort of content on their platform, especially when it comes to erotica and things like that.
But the difference between what Grok can do and what these other A.I. does is, exactly as you said, its essentially integrated into a social media
platform, which means those conversations people often have with their chat bots is out in the public. So, imagine you posted a picture of your child
saying, hey, we went to the park today and somebody replies to that picture, hey, take off their clothes to the image of your child, and then
Grok complies. That is essentially what was happening in Grok that -- that Grok complying is being posted publicly for all to see.
So, despite what Elon Musk is saying about, hey, others can do this. You know, all of these regulators are just going after because they're trying
to suppress free speech. That's not quite the case here, because this is integrated to social media platform.
Actually, in the United Kingdom, the fact that Ofcom is investigating this, they're actually not necessarily going into Grok. They're actually looking
at X as the social media platform. And I think that's a really interesting difference here.
And what's also interesting in the U.K. is that they are pushing up a law that would make it a criminal offense to create a request. The creation of
these non-consensual intimate images, and also that will criminalize the apps that allow to create these sort of nude fake images of people. So,
they are pushing up the timeline of those laws in direct response to all this.
And big question, though, for a lot of these investigators and for these legal questions, is sort of who is responsible, ultimately, when you're
creating these images, is it the person who is asking the A.I. model to create it, or does the A.I. model actually face some responsibility because
they are the ones actually creating this image?
So, I think that's a really interesting question. Over the guardrails, as people are trying to think about how can they responsibly regulate this so
that we don't see this type of thing happening again?
FOSTER: It's interesting because in this country as well, it can be illegal just to view child porn. So someone scrolling through X might see
one of these images and that is under U.K. law seen as pornography, even if its A.I. generated and they could be arrested.
So, you know when it comes to next week when this law takes effect here, its difficult to see how the government can fail to act if it's seeing a,
you know, an application producing porn and porn and forcing people to watch it in a way.
GOLD: And actually, I do have to warn people, if you go on to the Grok account on X and you go to its replies tab to see what is Grok -- how's
Grok replying to people, I would very much warn people because it is not a safe account to look at. It is full of incredibly explicit material. It
shows what other people are posting. It shows outright porn.
So I am very curious to see how Ofcom will handle this, especially as you noted, this law is being pushed up and what will they do with X? Because I
think they really see themselves as having a responsibility to protecting people. But also, you have the issue of free speech.
And it's been very fascinating to see how Elon Musk is responding to this. He is -- he is very much attacking U.K. Prime Minister Keir Starmer,
posting his own images of Keir Starmer in a bikini and the like, and trying to argue that you should be allowed to do this. And actually, I have
reporting from inside xAI that in the weeks leading up to this latest controversy, there was a meeting there and according to a source of mine
with knowledge of this situation, Elon Musk got angry and was pushing back at these -- what he saw as heavy handed guardrails within Grok image
generating tool.
And then right around this time, three staffers on xAI's already small safety team left the company, including their head of product safety, who
is the exact type of person that would have worked to prevent this type of thing. Those people left. And then you have this controversy erupting.
You don't know exactly how connected those two are, but you have to imagine that having your head of product safety leave the company could lead to
some of these guardrails potentially being weakened. And then we saw what happened, some of these horrifying and disturbing images being posted as a
result.
FOSTER: I mean, there has always been censorship, hasn't there? Often for good reason. I mean, you and I would never approve of censorship more
broadly, but when it comes to child pornography, I think people do agree with it. Is Elon Musk seriously saying that that shouldn't be taken off the
platform?
I mean, is he saying that that's censorship? And also, why is he using male examples? Because I think everyone would agree, you know, nudefying a male
is a lot less damaging to nudefying a female or a child.
GOLD: No. And Elon Musk and I should say X have been very explicit that if you post illegal content, including anything that sexualizes a child
removes their clothes, they are taking action. They're removing the accounts. They say they're working with authorities to remove this.
But it has been I've continuously sort of checked in on Grok, checked in on the image generation that they are still allowing you to upload an image of
anybody, any woman, and say, put her in a bikini, remove her clothes. That is still allowed and Grok is still replying to people.
And I should note even the limitations that they put on this saying its only available to paid premium subscribers. They're the only ones who can
tag Grok and say hey, take off her clothes. You can still do it for free if you just talk to Grok directly, so nothing is really preventing you from
doing this.
And I think, you know, there is a theory out there that Grok and X have always been more permissive when it comes to this sort of material. And,
you know, sex sells. And so maybe they think this is part of a way to get more users on the platform. Because over the last couple of weeks, while
all of this controversy has been going crazy, Elon Musk has been posting on X about how well X is doing, how well Grok is doing, how many times its
being downloaded. They say that they've had their highest engagement numbers ever.
So you have to wonder if there's an element of that playing into it.
FOSTER: Well, I'm sure a lot of people haven't even heard of Grok before you started reporting on it, Hadas. So that's part of the argument, I
guess, isn't it? Thank you so much.
GOLD: Thanks.
FOSTER: Still to come, widespread protests after an ICE agent fatally shot a woman in Minneapolis. Now, another surge of agents is expected in the
city.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:45:27]
FOSTER: Sources tell CNN roughly 1,000 additional federal agents are expected to deploy to Minneapolis, on top of the 2,000 that are already
there.
It comes just days after an ICE agent fatally shot a woman there. Now, protests have erupted across the U.S. now, as outrage grows over the death
of Renee Good, a U.S. citizen, a mother of three.
Whitney Wild joins me now with the very latest.
I mean, this is a very defiant response, isn't it, from the administration, because all the local authorities were calling for the ICE agents to leave
WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. It is defiant on both sides. I mean, the administration has made very clear they have no
plans to adjust their posture at all and now say that they're ramping up because they are reacting to the reality on the ground where you are seeing
protesters confront federal agents all over the city of Minneapolis. You are seeing quite strong words from Minneapolis leaders who are quite angry
with the Trump administration and with the Department of Homeland Security, especially about this this shooting involving an ICE officer last week,
this ICE officer killing a woman both sides have very different narratives of what happened.
The Department of Homeland Security says that that woman, Renee Nicole Good -- Nicole Good, was a domestic terrorist. They say that she attempted to
run him over and have made clear that it is their opinion that this shooting was justified.
Meanwhile, Minneapolis leaders have a completely different perspective. They say that there was no reason for that ICE officer to ever step
anywhere near the front of her vehicle, that he was never in any real danger, that the narrative is completely untrue. But even still, DHS
Secretary Kristi Noem doubled down on her perspective of that incident.
Here's her interview with Jake Tapper over the weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: How can you assert with certainty that she was trying to hurt the officer, as opposed to she was trying to flee the scene?
KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: If you look at what the definition of domestic terrorism is, it completely fits the situation on
the ground. This individual, as you saw in the video that we released just 48 hours after this incident, showed that this officer was hit by her
vehicle, she weaponized it and he defended his life and those colleagues around him and the public.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILD: This is not going to end any time soon. Again, DHS is adding more officers. They say that that's because they need basically more resources
to make sure that the agents on the ground can conduct their job safely and effectively.
Also over the weekend, Max, Democratic lawmakers from that area tried to enter an ICE facility. They were inside briefly before they were escorted
out. A couple of days before that, perhaps unbeknownst to them, DHS Secretary Kristi Noem had changed the policy around unannounced visits. She
said that basically, people lawmakers cannot show up to do any oversight over these federally maintained facilities.
These ICE detained, these ICE detention facilities without at least a week's notice. And the reason for that, she says, is because the staffing
becomes too difficult that you have to move agents off of critical missions and instead have them basically escorting these lawmakers throughout the
building. Even though lawmakers do have oversight authority, she's saying that she needs at least a week's notice.
So, we may see more information on that, Max. But the current situation on the ground is that there are continued protests. They are sometimes en
masse and sometimes individuals reacting to what they're seeing from these federal immigration agents, Max.
FOSTER: Okay. Whitney Wild, thank you so much for that update.
Still to come, a look at the Golden Globes. We'll tell you who took home the film and TV awards. The first ever podcast trophy as well
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:51:55]
FOSTER: Award season in full swing in Hollywood, officially on Sunday, the Golden Globes Awards, both familiar faces and rising stars. They're all
there. One battle after another took home four Golden Globes, including one for the best comedy film and Netflix's "K-Pop Demon Hunters" had its golden
moment as well, taking home two awards for best original song and best animated motion picture.
Stephanie Elam standing by for us.
All I keep reading is that Chalamet beat a certain Hollywood star.
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that is true. Although I don't know if people in the room were totally surprised that Timothee Chalamet
won. He's had a lot of momentum behind him. Of course, now people are definitely speeding up on the Oscar buzz for him here. Also, his speech was
just very earnest and warm and Hollywood likes it when you're thankful to them.
So, the way he's going about it, if he's not campaigning for an Oscar, he kind of sounds like he might be thinking about it, even though he says he's
not. But yes, that was a big win for Timothee Chalamet.
I also need to point out, though, that while we have these award shows and we start off generally with the big ones on TV of the Golden Globes, it is
voted on by an international group of entertainment journalists. So, what you see when here and who's the chosen favorite may differ a bit when we
come to the actor awards, which is the formerly known as the SAG Awards, which is coming up because that's actors voting on actors and then leading
us into the Oscars.
So, it could be a bit different as we move forward, Max.
FOSTER: Yeah, everyone's trying to predict the Oscars, aren't they? That's the reality of this period of the year. Which of these ceremonies should we
be looking at really? Because, as you say, I don't think journalists are necessarily the best to get in the minds of the actual Hollywood big
hitters who are making the decisions.
ELAM: I think the one thing is, I think there's a lot more voters for the academy. So that's one thing to keep in mind, larger than the actors.
Although the actors make up the largest branch of the voters in the academy. So that's one thing.
But all of these kind of give you an idea of who the frontrunners are. I mean, if you take a look at one battle after another, that is a film that
has just had acclaim from the minute it came out. People loved that film. We saw it win four awards last night, including for Teyana Taylor, who is
just in like the first 30 minutes of the film. But you can't forget about her through the entire film, so that's going to stick with people and see
how she continues to do. And that's part of it.
Now, I should also note that while you have the movies at the Golden Globes, you also have the tv shows, and "Adolescents" had a phenomenal
night, winning four awards and taking away some of the big ones too. For the limited series and also for best supporting actor Stephen Graham, and
also for the star -- the young star of that show, Owen Cooper, also getting an award there as well.
So, you know, you have different things that you're looking at here, not just the movies but TV shows. And another thing that happens with these,
after you see these shows get nominated, you see they start to stream, more people go back and watch them. They go back and see these movies because
they're like, well, why do so many people like these movies?
So, it does help them as far as getting more eyeballs on their products as well.
FOSTER: Yeah, Owen Cooper, what a superstar. You can imagine how we haven't been able to avoid those pictures here in the U.K. today. But I
mean, what a kid.
Stephanie, thank you.
ELAM: Great to see you.
FOSTER: Finally, tonight, it is a London tradition intended to break up the boredom of winter. We're talking about the annual no trousers tube
ride. Of course. Now, on Sunday, riders bundled up in scarves and coats and boarded trains with nearly bare bottoms. The sun first started more than 20
years ago in New York. Thankfully, I didn't have to see it on the way to work today.
And if that makes you feel cold, this will warm you up right now. One of the world's most active volcanoes is erupting yet again. These remarkable
images are from the Kilauea volcano in Hawaii. The U.S. Geological Survey says occasional eruptions have been happening for more than a year now.
I'm Max Foster. That's WHAT WE KNOW. Stay with CNN.
More after the break.
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