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What We Know with Max Foster

One Survivor Rescued From Laos Cave, At Least Four Remain; Trump Is In Situation Room Making Decision On Iran; DHS Chief Pitches Plan To Stop Processing Some International Flights; U.S. Judge Halts Work On Trump's "Anti-Weaponization" Fund; Ex-Attorney General Bondi Grilled By Lawmakers Over Epstein Files; Kenyan Court Orders Halt To Plan For U.S. Ebola Facility. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired May 29, 2026 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:36]

LYNDA KINKADE, CNN HOST: One survivor rescued, many more to go.

I'm Lynda Kinkade, in for Max Foster. And this is WHAT WE KNOW.

CNN is exclusively on the ground in Laos where there's a race against time to rescue four people still trapped in a flooded cave. This was the moment

the first survivor was rescued and led from the cave a few hours ago, after spending more than a week underground. Divers say they had to navigate

through sharp rocks in near pitch black conditions.

Our producer on the scene says the survivor seemed weak with stomach pain and skin irritation.

You're looking there at exclusive CNN images of the ambulance leaving the rescue site. Rescue operations are expected to resume in about seven hours.

CNN is the only news team at the rescue site -- at the rescue site. Our correspondent Will Ripley and producer Kocha Olam spoke to one of the cave

divers involved in the rescue shortly after the first survivor was pulled out.

Kocha gave an update on how he's doing now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KOCHA OLAM, CNN PRODUCER: The reason is that all the divers and rescuers are very, very tired. So the guys that he -- retrieved today had some

problem with his hands and foot because of it's been in the water and damp area for a long time. And he has some problem at his stomach.

All of them started to have some illnesses already. Some of them have like stomach issues. Some of them have skin issues. And also the skin -- the

skin at their hands and their feet have some problem because they have been in a damp area for a very long time, and some of them have intestines

issues because they didn't have like -- they didn't go to toilet for a very long time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KINKADE: Let's give you a sense of what rescuers are up against.

The journey to the entrance of the cave is slow and dangerous, with experienced divers taking up to two hours to navigate the full route. The

entrance goes down two meters, or about 6-1/2 feet at a steep 45 degree angle. Rescuers need to crawl and swim through cold, narrow passageways,

with one rescuer saying it's so dark even a light source doesn't illuminate much. The survivors are huddled more than 260 meters. That's about 850 feet

into the cave.

The rescuers need to teach the trapped villagers how to dive out of the cave on their own, something that could be a huge challenge given the

distress that they are under.

Will Ripley was there the moment the divers said the first trapped man was being released, and he gave this update as the news broke.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I just want to play for you the last 15 seconds of a phone call that we were just on right

before this live shot, with the rescue diver inside the cave, just as we were wrapping up the interview. Just listen. I hope you can hear it.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, they're coming out, coming out. Are they coming out?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We pick them up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So we're coming out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

RIPLEY: They're coming out is what he said.

So, obviously, it was -- it was kind of chaotic there. We talked to him for about 10 minutes.

He was explaining to us how they've been working with the villagers trapped inside the cave, actually having them put on wetsuits and train with diving

equipment, because even though they've managed to drain some of the water, he said, the water levels are still very high, so they've actually had to

teach them how to dive through the water while holding on to the legs of the expert divers that are in there to try to rescue them. They also said

the water underground is ice cold, and so it's obviously very difficult, very perilous.

But right at the end of that conversation, we heard people in the background on the phone call saying, they're coming out, they're coming

out. And then the phone cut off.

It's been an excruciating experience, obviously, for the men inside the cave who went without food for a week, and now they have been given food,

they have been given fresh water. But many of them are starting to complain about health problems, breathing in the air inside the cave, saying that

they feel like their bodies are starting to break down.

And now what they are facing at this very moment in that cave 800 feet underground is one of the most arduous climbs that even a very fit person

would struggle with, and would take them several hours. But you're talking about people that have been stuck in total darkness underneath the cave now

for 10 days, having to basically swim through icy water, climb up 45 degree angles just to get to the mouth of the cave.

There are also family members who've been waiting at the mouth of the cave for any word.

[15:05:01]

We actually spoke with a woman earlier whose husband is one of the five survivors, and we asked her if she has hope that she's going to see him,

possibly in the coming hours. I just want to play for you a portion of that interview with her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RIPLEY: What's the first thing you're going to say to him when you see him?

SAMORN IAN, WIFE OF TRAPPED LAOS VILLAGER (translated): What could I say? I'd just be so happy to see my husband again. I'm grateful and proud that

people from other countries came to help us. Thank you.

OLAM: I say, I'm so happy the foreigners come to help. I cannot say enough.

IAN (translated): I'm so excited and happy that I'll get to see my husband again.

OLAM: Excited.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RIPLEY: She hasn't slept, she said, in nine days and she can barely eat. And yet she has been going up to the cave. She's been hiking up.

You can't see it now because it's pitch black, but it's a very steep road that they have to walk up or get a ride on heavy equipment every -- every

hour or so. They keep bringing it up and down.

But she's been going up there. She's been bringing food for the rescuers, and they're also sending food down into the cave, hoping that their loved

ones can receive it. And they've been camped out there around the clock.

So this has been really an ordeal, obviously, for the people underground who are now fighting the surface, a very dangerous operation, by the way.

Even skilled rescue divers can die in a situation like this, not to mention people who are weakened after spending so many days in such a precarious

and difficult situation.

And yet that is what's happening right now. A lot of people praying that they can pull together the strength to make it out of this cave safe and

alive. And of course, the search is still continuing for two other villagers who are still missing inside the cave. We're waiting for official

word about them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KINKADE: Thanks to Will Ripley there. We will bring you more on that as it comes to hand.

Well, U.S. President Donald Trump says he is right now weighing whether to approve a deal with Iran. In an online message, the president said he's

meeting with advisors today at the White House Situation Room. He has repeated U.S. demands that Iran must reopen the Strait of Hormuz and agree

that they will never have a nuclear weapon.

Iran's parliament speaker says, "We have no trust in guarantees or words. Only actions are the measure. No action will be taken before the other side

acts."

Tehran's foreign ministry says a memorandum of understanding between the two nations has not yet been finalized, but the two countries are still in

contact.

CNN White House correspondent Alayna Treene is with us right now.

Alayna, we have been speaking for weeks about whether that deal is close. We've heard many times that a deal is on the precipice of happening. Just

how close are we right now?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, we've heard for that for weeks, just to sometimes see those talks fall apart. So, look, I will

say though, from the conversations I've been having with my sources, that they do feel more confident in where things are at this moment,

particularly because -- we had heard this, reported this yesterday, I should say -- you know, U.S. officials telling me and our colleague Kevin

Liptak that there is a tentative agreement that had been reached between Washington and Tehran.

Really, some of the language kind of more finalized, for this memorandum of understanding, which is essentially a short term deal in order to make

another deal, you know, it'd trigger a 60-day negotiating period to really work out the details and specifics of what would ultimately end up -- what

they're hoping would be a more permanent and longer lasting agreement.

But all to say, none of that matters unless you get sign off from the president of the United States, Donald Trump, or from Iran's supreme

leader, both of which at this moment and our current understanding is they have not given.

Now, we did hear from the president, and this is, of course, the latest development that he was going to be heading in to a Situation Room, meeting

with his top national security officials, and that following that meeting, he would make a final determination on whether or not he wanted to move

forward with that memorandum of understanding.

Now, it's been a couple hours since he posted that on social media. We have not had word yet of whether that has concluded that meeting or whether or

not Trump has, in fact, made a final determination.

But I do want to lay out what he argued would be in this short term framework, it is in line with much of what we've already reported it would

look like. But he said that one of the demands is that Iran must not have a nuclear weapon. He did not make any mention, though, of something we know

is also crucial to this -- the enforcement mechanism to hold Iran to their word there. He said that they have to reopen the Strait of Hormuz to pre-

war levels, and also that they take out mines that they have put in that crucial waterway.

But a few things stood out to me as well on this question of highly enriched uranium. This is something that President Trump has been fixated

on as being a key red line for him. He said, essentially that it would be, quote, "unearthed by the United States and destroyed in coordination with

Iran."

That's a bit different than what we've been hearing in our conversations with officials, that that very thorny issue has not yet been decided. But

that's clearly where President Trump wants it to go.

He also said no money will be exchanged until further notice.

[15:10:01]

That's also a little bit unclear. I mean, obviously, we know a huge incentive for the Iranians to sign on to this agreement is that they would

get some sort of financial compensation. This is not clear of whether or not no money at this point would there be no money down the line? And also,

does that refer to the funds that have been frozen and whether or not unfreezing those and giving access to the Iranians would actually move

things along here?

All to say things are still murky. We have not yet heard from the president on what his decision would be, but a lot of people seeming more optimistic

than they have been on the path forward here.

KINKADE: That is promising to some extent.

Alayna, I want to ask you about another story swirling through the White House, about punishing airports in certain Democrat-leaning cities. Alayna,

you've been reporting that the homeland security chief, Markwayne Mullin, is proposing a plan to stop processing international travelers in some

cities. What more can you tell us?

TREENE: Yeah, look, this is something that we've now heard repeatedly. The new secretary of homeland security, Markwayne Mullin, talked about -- he's,

you know, gone on several different networks on television to tout this potential idea of, one, you know, removing some Customs and Border

Protection officers from these different airports, which would be in the sanctuary cities.

I should note, sanctuary cities make up some of the biggest cities in the country. Los Angeles, New York City, Boston, Chicago, the list goes on. But

then also potentially halting the customs processing for travelers who go through those airports in sanctuary city, something, of course, we've now

heard from multiple airlines and others in the transportation community would wreak havoc on airport travel, airplane travel, and would really be a

massive impact not only to travel overall, but also to the economy.

Now, I've been talking with some of my sources here in the administration, and essentially what they said is, one, this is an idea that Mullin has

been obsessed with ever since he was sworn in to the Department of Homeland Security. It's also one that he has brought up unprompted, in meetings here

at the White House.

But it's not something that actually people in the west wing have greenlit, and many of them have actually privately acknowledged in my conversations

with them that this would be a huge disruption to travel across the country. And so, very much unclear of whether or not this is actually a

real prospect. One White House official told me essentially, that while the president welcomes these kinds of ideas, he's the one who always makes an

ultimate decision.

So, doesn't seem like at this moment there are any imminent proposals to actually move forward with it. But it is something, again, we've heard

Mullin talk about publicly, just not something I think many people are willing to get on board with.

KINKADE: And, Alayna, just some news coming in I want to ask you about. Were hearing a federal judge is blocking the closure of the Kennedy Center.

The judge also ruled that the centers boards violated the law when it added Donald Trump's name to this historic venue. The Kennedy Center, of course,

just one of many Washington landmarks the president has put his touch on.

What more can you tell us?

TREENE: Yeah, I actually found this quote from this ruling from the federal judge to stand out to me. They said, quote, "Congress gave the Kennedy

Center its name, and only Congress can change it." So, making clear that position.

Look, they are now blocking the name from being added to this. As you're seeing on our screen, the president moved very quickly, and the Kennedy

Center moved very quickly to add his name physically to the outside of that building. So we'll see whether or not there are any immediate changes

because of this ruling.

But they're also trying to block the Kennedy Center closure, which is slated to happen this summer in order for a several year renovation, again,

arguing that when Congress passed this measure, to name it the Kennedy Center, that it was clear that no board could actually be the ones to go

forward and change that. It really does have to come from Congress.

I will say, knowing this administration, having covered them for so long, we are likely to see an appeal here. This is going to be something that is

not the -- you know, this is not the end of it. This is not going to be the end of this legal fight.

But, it's fascinating to see. And it is exactly as you said, Lynda, something there -- we've seen Trump really try to put his name, image and

likeness on many landmarks across the city, many of which of course, have created a lot of controversy and triggered some legal battles.

KINKADE: Yeah, absolutely. We will be watching this space, watching those buildings to see if anything changes.

Alayna Treene, staying across multiple stories this hour, we appreciate you. Thank you.

A U.S. federal judge is putting the brakes on plans to create a nearly $1.8 billion fund for alleged victims of government weaponization. The judge

temporarily paused payments on the fund while she considers a lawsuit brought by a former January 6th prosecutor. Now, the controversial fund is

overseen by the Justice Department, and critics describe it as a slush fund for President Trump's allies that could potentially include rioters who

were convicted of crimes committed on January 6th.

[15:15:07]

CNN's Katelyn Polantz is covering the story and joins us now live from D.C.

Good to see you, Katelyn.

So, just give us the latest on what this all means now that this fund has been blocked, apparently temporarily. What are the next steps?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lynda, there have been January 6th rioters. There have been others in Donald Trump's

legal circles and political circles who've said they've wanted to submit claims and get money from this fund before it sunsets, basically, at the

end of the Trump administration.

And the judge says, not yet. No claims can be submitted. No money can be dealt out. No board can even be put in place to be looking at claims at

this time.

That's because the judge, Leonie Brinkema, in the federal court in Alexandria, Virginia, she says that she wants to make sure that no funds

are irreversibly dispersed from what the Trump says is the anti- weaponization fund, this $1.8 billion pot of money that the Justice Department, the Trump administration, say they want to set up and

potentially give to people who they say were targeted by Democrats.

Now, in this lawsuit, this is not just from a former January 6th prosecutor in D.C., a prosecutor for the Justice Department. It's also from a bunch of

other people that have reason to believe that they are being discriminated against and may not be able to get money out of this fund, whereas allies

of Donald Trump and Republicans may be able to, the prosecutor that filed this suit, Andrew Floyd, he's just one of a couple. The others are a

college professor in California who said that he was unfairly targeted by the Trump administration because he was arrested for protesting immigration

enforcement actions in California.

There's also the city of New Haven that says that it has been hurt by the Trump administration because it is deemed a sanctuary city for immigrants.

There's also nonprofits, including one that provides abortions.

So they all came together to file this suit before Judge Brinkema and said, were being discriminated against. This is illegal. The way that this fund

is being set up by the Trump administration and that the judge should look at whether they can even do this with the executive branch or the

president, that this should be something that only Congress can determine, can move forward, that Congress has the power of the purse in the federal

government and should have control over funding, payments, all sorts of things like that.

All of this is not going to get sorted out for quite a while. And this is only one of several lawsuits that are currently in the federal courts. It's

the one that's moving quickest at this time. And Judge Brinkema, she set a hearing for two weeks from now. That's when she would have the first

opportunity to determine whether the fund could move forward or whether it remains blocked.

But right now, it is blocked. There can't be any forward movement on it. And there are other cases that are also going to be moving forward as we

await more arguments and a defense from the Trump administration and the Justice Department.

KINKADE: Yeah, I want to ask you about that because, you know, while this is completely frozen right now, just how strong is the government's defense

of this program?

POLANTZ: Well, we're going to see exactly what they're able to say about it. A lot of it rests around what Congress has told the administration and

the Treasury Department, specifically, what they can do with money, the pot of money that the anti-weaponization, $1.8 billion was supposed to come

from is something called the judgment fund, and that's a fund that's been used for many years that any time someone has a claim against the federal

government says they've been wronged, they've been hurt, they settle a case, maybe a lawsuit against the federal government, something like, you

know, they get hit by a federal vehicle and they want some sort of damages because they were hurt in a traffic accident.

That's the sort of thing that the judgment fund and the administration is allowed to make payments out on. Now, whether it can be applied in this

particular manner, whether the administration can also say, we want to pay people who have been harmed from, quote, unquote, "lawfare and

weaponization", that's going to be for the courts to decide.

But how the distribution of money happens when people are wronged by the federal government, with these payouts coming from the judgment fund and

the Treasury Department, that's something that already exists. And we're very likely to see the Justice Department rely on that. And of course,

their favorite argument these days, which is saying that Donald Trump, as president, can do whatever he would like with the executive branch.

KINKADE: I mean, judges always love that argument, don't they?

Katelyn Polantz, good to have you with us. Thank you.

NATO and the European Union are currently condemning Russia after the war on Ukraine spilled into neighboring Romania.

Now, authorities in Romania say a Russian drone hit an apartment building, injuring two people. They say the strike is one of dozens of airspace

breaches by Russian drones. Russian President Vladimir Putin says no one can say where the drone came from until investigation is carried out.

However, Romania's foreign minister says she has confirmation the drone was Russian. She told me earlier why, quote, "Russia is not to be trusted."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OANA-SILVIA TOIU, ROMANIA'S FOREIGN MINISTER: I is the more -- most severe incident we have seen since the start of the war. Romania has the longest

border with the war, 650 kilometers. And of course, we do have the Danube and the Black Sea close to it.

It is important to say, though, that the mother and child are well. They have received medical care, but of course the level of worry, the level of

concern is very high, not just in Galati, the city that was hit, but also across the country. And I would dare to say across allied territory,

because this has raised concerns.

I have seen the statements come from Vladimir Putin, and we do have a clear message to him. It is his drone, and we know that he knows it. We have seen

Russia try whenever these hybrid interferences happened on the eastern flank, to also push their own side of the story, narratives that would

deflect from their own responsibility. But especially in Eastern Europe, we do have a history that teaches us that Russia is not to be trusted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KINKADE: Well, still to come, an interview, not a deposition. The former U.S. attorney general testifies to Congress about the Epstein files, but

she didn't have to answer every question she was asked.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KINKADE: Welcome back.

Even after leaving her job as attorney general, Pam Bondi cannot escape the controversy that is the Epstein files. Bondi testified behind closed doors

today, a House committee looking into the release of those files. Republicans blocked cameras from recording the testimony, though transcript

will be released.

Bondi defended how her Justice Department handled the files, even though millions of pages have yet to be released. A group of Epstein survivors

were also on capitol hill today, and they say the Trump administration has not treated them fairly through all of this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIZ STEIN, EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: Can you assure us that today, we will get information from Pam Bondi about why the files were released in the manner

that they were released, specifically, the redaction process?

REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): Yeah.

STEIN: Survivors' names over and over and over were exposed. Yet we see time and time again, perpetrators' names have been redacted when they

shouldn't have been. Are we going to get some answers?

COMER: I hope so. Those are the questions we're going to ask. And you know, we're doing this. We want justice for the survivors. We do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KINKADE: Democrats say Pam Bondi refused to answer any questions about Donald Trump, and that she blamed her former deputy, who is the current

attorney general, for any problems with the release of the files.

With more on that part of the story, here's Paula Reid.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Lynda, the former attorney general, testified for just under four hours. This much

anticipated appearance actually happened behind closed doors. It was not broadcast live, nor was it even taped. The only record were going to get is

a transcript that the chairman of the committee has vowed to release, could get that next week.

But as of right now, we're relying on those lawmakers, what they say when they come out, the former attorney general and her lawyer.

So far, Democrats were suggesting that the former attorney general was pinning a lot of the blame for how the review and redaction and release of

Epstein files happened, on Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche, who did oversee that process. But Democratic lawmakers who came out, they said that

she was repeatedly trying to pin the blame on him.

Now, in a statement shortly after she wrapped here, Pam Bondi put on social media that that was not true. And she had a lot of praise for Todd Blanche.

Now, Bondi is being represented by the Civil Rights Division chief at the Justice Department, Harmeet Dhillon. It's a little unusual because she is a

current Justice Department official representing a former Justice Department official. Dhillon did speak to reporters after this hearing. She

said that she was there to represent the interests of a former attorney general and the justice department. She also dismissed concerns about

Bondi, pointing to Blanche.

As you know, this is how it works, and the attorney general. You delegate tasks to other people. She just dismissed it as common, not necessarily

trying to pin the blame on Blanche.

Now, Republicans were also pressed by survivors who were up here on Capitol Hill ahead of this hearing, demanding that they ask questions that they

have long been trying to get answers to about the handling of this investigation, those redaction mistakes, even Ghislaine Maxwell's transfer

from one person to another. But we won't know what exactly transpired in this hearing until we get that transcript. That will happen at the earliest

next week -- Lynda.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KINKADE: Our thanks to Paula Reid.

Well, still to come not lift off, but rather a setback for Blue Origin after this spectacular explosion.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:31:25]

KINKADE: In a few hours, rescue operations will resume in central Laos for at least four villagers trapped in a flooded cave. This was the moment the

first survivor was rescued after more than a week underground. He spoke just minutes after he was led out of the cave.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (translated): My name is Mued. I'm all right. I'm still strong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (translated): We'll move on to the next chamber.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KINKADE: The race is still on to save those underground, with fears that more heavy rain could create nightmare conditions. Two people are missing

in the cave, rescue team told CNN they haven't had contact with them.

Well, the cave is located in a remote mountainous area in Laos.

Will Ripley and his team had to take a helicopter just to reach the isolated area. Take a look at this exclusive report they filed earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RIPLEY: All right, we're taking off. Godspeed. Right now we're heading towards the mountains, although you can see they're pretty difficult to

see. They're obscured by clouds and fog. The weather has been a real problem with the effort to reach the miners down that cave because every

time it rains, and it's monsoon season, so it's raining every day, it just floods the caves and the water levels rise and make it difficult to bring

anybody out or in.

And directly below us is where this cave rescue is unfolding as we speak. And you get a sense of just how dangerous and rugged this mountainous

jungle terrain is. It would have taken us close to 10 hours if we were driving here. The helicopter flight is taking us just about 40 minutes.

Whenever it rains, the water disappears into these mountains, creating this vast underground limestone cave network with these hidden rivers and

sinkholes and air pockets, where it's believed that those villagers were trapped.

It's also monsoon season. It's raining almost every day here. So when the water goes down, it instantly floods those caves, which is putting the

lives of the villagers and rescuers in danger. Getting equipment out here has been a huge challenge because as we flew in here, we saw that most of

the roads are winding dirt roads only passable during daylight hours. It's impossible to drive at night. It's much too dangerous.

But they need that heavy equipment, particularly large generators, so that they can pump the water out of the caves in between rainstorms to try to

get the water levels low enough so that the divers can crawl out without having to attempt an extremely perilous dive, pitch black, murky water. But

the villagers say their health condition is deteriorating. They've been sending video messages to their families.

They're desperately waiting to be reunited with their loved ones. And even though they now have food and medical care, they still have said that they

feel like if they have to spend much longer down in that cave, they might not make it out alive.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KINKADE: Well, it is the final moments of trade on Wall Street, and stocks could finish the week on an all time high. The Dow was on track for a

record close.

This is our Business Breakout.

Oil prices continue to slide in anticipation of a new ceasefire deal between the United States and Iran. Both Brent crude and West Texas prices

have fallen on Friday. Overall in May, oil prices have fallen almost 20 percent from their recent highs.

There's a new member of the one trillion club, SK Hynix. The South Korean semiconductor group is the latest company to cross the $1 trillion in

market cap. It's one of the world's largest makers of memory chips.

[15:35:00]

Its American competitor, Micron, also passed the milestone earlier this week.

TikTok spin-off deal that allowed the company to keep operating in the U.S. may not have done enough to protect American national security interests.

That's according to a letter from Democratic Senator Ed Markey, who is demanding clarity on TikTok's relationship to its Chinese parent company.

Markey is asking TikTok U.S. to send him details of how it reworks its algorithm for American users.

Well, a setback for Blue Origin after what was a spectacular explosion during a ground test on Thursday. Take a look at this, the moment its new

Glenn rocket blew up on its launch pad. The company, owned by Amazon founder Jeff Bezos, says no one was injured, and its too early to know the

root cause of the explosion.

Well, what we don't know is how much of a setback this is for Jeff Bezos and Blue Origin.

Joining me now is the former commander of the International Space Station, Chris Hadfield. He is also the author of the book "Final Orbit".

Great to have you with us.

COL. CHRIS HADFIELD, CANADIAN ASTRONAUT (RET.): Good to be speaking with you, Lynda.

KINKADE: So I want to get first your initial thoughts on what may have caused this dramatic explosion. What systems are normally pushed to their

limits when it comes to a hot fire test like this on a launch pad?

HADFIELD: Well, it's still quite a new rocket. It's only flown three times. Imagine if the car, the engine in your car had only ever been started three

times. You know, you're still learning things.

But if you watch, you're looking at that explosion now, if you zoom way in on it and have a frame by frame, look, it looks to me like there was a

significant simultaneous explosion all up the first stage. My guess, and I'm just guessing, but I think they had a leak, a leak of the main

propellant, which is liquid methane.

And then suddenly you've got a big cloud of explosive. As soon as you get your first spark, the whole thing goes off, and then everything else just

catches. And they had 400,000 gallons of fuel on board. That's enough fuel to take a 747 across the Pacific 10 times, you know? So it all went up in a

heartbeat and made a significant bang.

KINKADE: Yeah, it certainly quite a spectacular explosion.

The rocket estimated loss is about, you know, $150 million. So not financially dire for billionaire Jeff Bezos, but what sort of setback could

this be for the Blue Origin program?

HADFIELD: Well, the big problem is delays. There's all sorts of people waiting on this rocket to work so they can put their satellites into orbit

and so NASA can put things on the moon.

And it's not just the rocket that blew up, but it seriously damaged the launchpad. And there's only one launchpad for this Blue Origin rocket, for

new Glenn. And it could take, I'm guessing, but a year to rebuild that launch pad from scratch. They had another one partially constructed.

There's local damage, but all the local nearby rockets are all okay, so they'll be trying to accelerate that as much as possible.

But I think the big thing here, Lynda, for going to the moon is, a one-year delay right now in getting all of NASA's assets to the moon means a one

year delay in trying to get there before the Chinese astronauts get there. So the race is really on.

KINKADE: Yeah. One year delay, a hugely significant.

Just explain for us, Colonel, how unusual it is for, you know, a fully integrated heavy lift rocket like this to explode during a ground test.

HADFIELD: Well, it -- unfortunately, it's not that unusual. You know, it's brand new. And they had some blow up during testing, just like all rocket

manufacturers do. SpaceX -- in fact, what was probably the second biggest rocket explosion in American history was a SpaceX rocket that blew up.

And, you know, there have been previous rockets in the `60s and `70s and `80s that have exploded. It's just -- how do you know where the edges of

the envelope, where the limits of performance are until you have something actually fail. And, you know, unfortunately, early on here, we had this

happen and, the team at Blue Origin got to be so disheartened. All those thousands of employees who are working on this project, you know, to lose

not just that rocket, but now they've got to really start it and rebuild and get ready to try again.

They'll learn a lot from it, as we always do from rocket, you know, explosions. But at the same time, it's not learning that anybody wanted.

It's way more preferable to learn from success.

KINKADE: Yeah, exactly. But the lessons generally come from mistakes.

Colonel, you know, from your time on the International Space Station, how do astronauts and engineers emotionally process an event like this on the

ground, especially when its going to mean greater delays?

[15:40:00]

HADFIELD: Well, we're pretty realistic about it. It's like, well, this was a test. And the test found a flaw and nobody got hurt. Perfect. We're

relieved by that. That's a good thing.

We wouldn't have wanted to be rolling the dice and putting people on a rocket that early that didn't have the pedigree, so, no one wants to see

that much loss in one test. But at the same time, no one's going to climb on a rocket like this until its had multiple, multiple proven tests. The

ability to fly as often as perhaps the SpaceX Falcon IX has, which astronauts have flown up to the space station multiple times.

So we'll get there. But boy, a lot of eggs right now are in the SpaceX basket because it's the only real heavy lift option to get things into

earth orbit and to the moon for quite some time to come.

KINKADE: Yeah, precious certainly now in SpaceX.

Colonel Chris Hadfield, great to get your perspective on all of this. Appreciate your time. Thank you

HADFIELD: Thanks, Lynda.

KINKADE: Well, still to come, U.S. plans for a 50-bed Ebola treatment facility in Nairobi have come to a halt. We'll tell you why the proposed

facility is sparking outrage from Kenyan health care leaders.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KINKADE: Kenyan high court has temporarily suspended U.S. plans to open an Ebola quarantine facility in the country. The judge also barred Kenya from

admitting anyone exposed to or infected by Ebola. Kenya is more than 2,000 kilometers away from the Democratic Republic of Congo, where nearly 250

people are believed to have died from Ebola. Kenya has not recorded any Ebola cases.

CNN's Larry Madowo is in Nairobi with the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Why do Americans think that their lives are more important than the lives of Kenyans? That appears to be the

national mood here, the overall sentiment across the country. There's near universal opposition to this U.S. plan to set up an Ebola quarantine

facility or isolation ward in the country for Americans. And now, a judge has agreed that it might endanger public health, at least temporarily.

[15:45:03]

A Kenyan high court judge ruling that the Kenyan government cannot get into this agreement with the U.S. It cannot admit transfer or in any way allow

anybody exposed to Ebola or with confirmed Ebola to come into the country until this plays out in the court. That's until June 2nd, when the Katiba

Institute -- this is the civil society group that filed the suit, will have their moment before this judge to explain why they're opposed to it.

But they're not the only ones. The Law Society of Kenya has also filed a constitutional petition to essentially block the Kenyan government from

doing this, because, again, the same argument is that if Ebola is too dangerous for Americans, it is too dangerous for Kenyans. The Kenya medical

practitioners and dentists union, that is the union representing 10,000- plus doctors in public and private hospitals are opposed to it.

They say that Kenya is a sovereign nation. It is not a geopolitical isolation ward and that they will not allow the Kenyan government to give a

public safety for foreign aid. That reference is because the U.S. has said it is committing $13.5 million to Kenya for Ebola preparedness efforts.

Many Kenyans are offended by repeated statements from U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio. He said that the U.S. priority is to protect U.S.

citizens and that they will do everything to ensure that Ebola does not get to the U.S. The corollary here that the way people see it here in Kenya is

that they're saying, oh, you can have Ebola over there in Kenya, but it cannot come to the U.S. even if they're American citizens. And that is why

there's this universal opposition to it.

Local leaders in central Kenya, where reports say this 50-bed facility should have opened on Friday, are opposed to it. But the Kenyan government

has not been fully transparent in terms of what deal they got into with the Americans. So far, there's been no response from the Kenyan government, and

that is fueling a lot of speculation as to why President William Ruto government got into this deal in the first place, and some Kenyans say it

appears to be for the money, and they say return the money to the Americans and keep it safe, because they feel that the Kenyan health system, the

health care infrastructure here, is just not ready for an infectious virus like Ebola.

Larry Madowo, CNN, Nairobi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KINKADE: Well, still to come, new music from a legend. We take a look at Paul McCartney's new album.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KINKADE: Well, fans of the Beatles, listen up. Paul McCartney, soon to be 84, has just released his first solo album in more than five years.

[15:50:03]

It's titled "The Boys from Dungeon Lane", a reference to his childhood growing up in Liverpool. Tracks on the album take a look back at

McCartney's early years and adventures with John Lennon and George Harrison, long before they were known as The Beatles.

(MUSIC)

KINKADE: So, what we want to know is can Paul McCartney still dazzle fans with his eighth solo album?

Well, joining me now is Dale Roberts from Liverpool, where he is a professional Beatles tour guide.

How are you doing?

DALE ROBERTS, PROFESSIONAL BEATLES TOUR GUIDE: I'm doing good. Thank you. How are you?

KINKADE: I'm great. So at 83 years old, Paul McCartney just released yet another album. It's quite remarkable. I was reading he gave a recent

interview where he says, people always ask him, you know, why are you still writing songs? And he said, because he loves it. He's addicted to it.

What do you love about his songs, and what was your reaction when you heard he was putting out another album?

ROBERTS: I mean, the first reaction when I found out he was putting out another album is wow, Dungeon Lane, because Dungeon Lane, a real niche,

piece of history. I mean, no one visits it in Liverpool. It's an obscure little lane that's right by the airport. And quite often people just park

there while waiting for loved ones to arrive from the airport.

It's -- it seems, quite nondescript, but for Paul McCartney it clearly meant a massive amount. And truthfully, as someone who studies the Beatles

for a living, you know, straight away I was going to many books going, okay, tell me everything about Dungeon Lane.

And most Beatle historians have completely overlooked it. There's not many stories about Paul on Dungeon Lane itself. So this is quite cool because

its a whole new avenue of Paul McCartney's childhood that obviously he's trying to reminisce about and explore. And for us now, as professionals

within the Beatles industry that exists in Liverpool, we're now scrambling as quickly as possible to find out as much information about these places.

So it's quite exciting. But for me, Paul McCartney is going to live forever. You know he's never going to stop writing music until the moment

he can't move anymore, you know? And he's never going to stop performing. It's so obvious how work hungry he has always been, which is quite amazing,

especially the idea is, you know.

KINKADE: It really is one of the producers who's quite young that worked with him on this album, described him as bouncing around, playing every

instrument as they were recording this. But I want to ask you specifically about some of the tracks on this album, because he references Liverpool

landmarks and it kind of its quite nostalgic, referencing his history in Liverpool.

What else have you learned about Dungeon Lane and some of the other landmarks he speaks about?

ROBERTS: So Dungeon Lane, as I was saying just a moment ago, its a nondescript lane in Liverpool, straight away our council have had to

scramble to put signs up at the top end because the signs they didn't exist, not like the Penny Lane street signs where people had pinched the

Penny Lane street signs the second the song came out. These street signs are kind of just being destroyed over time, but no one particularly cared

because no one was really visiting Dungeon Lane.

So the one thing I've discovered through research now, for the last sort of month and a half, you know, is it's quite clear that Paul would travel

along Dungeon Lane to get to shore, where ugly shore meant a lot to Paul, because Paul would go there to watch birds. It was a bird watching hotspot

and still is to this day. It's a real wildlife place on the shore of the River Mersey in Liverpool.

So I think that was the main reason why he wrote (ph) Dungeon Lane. But Dungeon Lane in his song that that he released a month ago in preparation

for this, and he mentions Forthlin Road for the first ever time. And Forthlin Road was the road that Paul lived on. And that's actually the

house number 24 on the road is the most important house in the history of modern music, because it was a Beatle rehearsal space.

And it's the first time that Paul McCartney's ever mentioned the place in the lyrics of a song. So that's something that was really quite important

to us in Liverpool. It's like, finally he's mentioned the road in the song. This is quite cool.

And -- but with the songs that have been released today for the first time, there's a great one called "Going Down South", and Paul McCartney in the

second verse of "Going Down South", mentions about how he meets George Harrison for the first time, and the first time he met was just getting a

bus through Liverpool. And Paul reminisces on that and its beautiful, you know? And obviously, Paul is referring to his parents as well in quite a

few of the songs.

So, it's really special. But equally, while it's nostalgic, I was worried that it'd be like a Johnny Cash kind of, you know, hurt kind of real somber

album. It's actually really upbeat. It's very optimistic. It's very positive.

So it doesn't feel like a farewell album, which I think everyone was worried about with Paul.

[15:55:02]

It does feel like he's still just doing it for the love of the music, you know?

KINKADE: Yeah, it certainly sounds like that. And it's great that we're learning a lot more about him.

Just very quickly. Do you expect a surge in business, more people wanting to come -- come and tour the streets of Liverpool?

ROBERTS: Like yes and no. Liverpool is incredibly busy anyway. And over the last sort of 10 to 15 years, we've seen an incredible increase of people

who visit Liverpool for so many different reasons.

But the Beatles are a major draw and -- but one of the main things its done is its drew the attention away from the city center of Liverpool and the

typical Beatle landmarks like Penny Lane or strawberry field. Its put Speke on the land on the map, which no one was visiting Speke. They go to the

airport and then they go straight to Liverpool city center.

So, Speak become a landmark that people are asking about, which that means a lot to me because I'm one of the owners of George Harrison's childhood

home, and George Harrison's childhood home is in Speke. And for quite a few years, it's been the only place that people could go to in Speke. That was

a Beatle attraction. So now we have a lot more people are asking about Speke.

KINKADE: Very, very --

ROBERTS: So cool.

KINKADE: Very cool. I'll have to do another Beatles tour sometime soon.

Dale Roberts, great to speak with you. Thanks so much.

ROBERTS: Thank you very much. Thank you.

KINKADE: I'm Lynda Kinkade. That was WHAT WE KNOW. Stay with CNN. We have much more news in just a moment.

END

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