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What We Know with Max Foster

Trump Dismisses Calls For More A.I. Guardrails; Anthropic CEO: People Could Lose Control Of A.I.; China Rejects Suggestions It Poses An A.I. Governance Risk; Trump Says Unification Of Ireland A "Natural Thing"; Democrats And Republicans Spar Over Limiting A.I. Growth; Kyiv: Russian Drone Strike "Quite Likely" A Targeted Attack. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired September 14, 2026 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:54]

CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, CNN HOST: Big tech wants to pump the brakes on A.I., while U.S. President Donald Trump wants the industry to go full steam

ahead.

I'm Christina Macfarlane in for Max Foster, and this is WHAT WE KNOW.

And we begin with what could be a watershed moment for A.I., as some of the biggest names in tech say we should prioritize safety over growth before

it's too late.

Over the weekend, the CEO of Anthropic called for a slowdown in how fast the technology is advancing. In an essay, Dario Amodei acknowledged that

people could lose control of A.I. and the technology could be used for cyber attacks, bioterrorism, or economic disruption. While Elon Musk, the

head of xAI, and Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, say they agree.

The U.S. president, however, seems to think otherwise.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I've said it from the beginning, whoever wins A.I. and we're leading by a lot. Whoever wins A.I.

wins.

REPORTER: Have you ever used it yourself or have you been?

TRUMP: I use A.I. Yeah, I do.

REPORTER: How do you use A.I.?

TRUMP: But I would say, you know, for the most part -- you can use A.I. for a lot of things. Well, I don't want to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: China is rejecting suggestions it poses a threat to A.I. security. An editorial in a state-backed newspaper called the essay by

Anthropic CEO, a veiled jive at Beijing. China says the focus should instead be on cooperation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUO JIAKUN, CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESPERSON: The development of artificial intelligence concerns the common well-being of all humanity. All

parties should work together to advance A.I. in a manner that is open, inclusive, beneficial to all, and oriented towards the good. Spreading

various threat narratives and engaging in confrontation and malicious competition will only disrupt the global A.I. governance process and serve

the interests of no one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Kristen Holmes is joining me now from the White House.

And Kristen, there's been a lot of comment from the president today claiming that this is a conspiracy against A.I. I mean, is he the only one

who refuses to accept there is a need for any kind of control right now?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, inside the administration, no. They are clearly doubling down on this line that

whoever wins A.I. wins. And that's a specific reference to China and the race in terms of A.I. and this kind of technology between the United States

and China.

And President Trump has been on kind of a rant, honestly, for the last several hours. He posted that it was a hoax, that any kind of pushback on

A.I. was a hoax. He compared it to his previous impeachments. He also said this, that there is a sick conspiracy going on against A.I. and data

centers, and the only one that is happy about it is China.

And he's not the only one that's kind of doubling down on this idea. any narrative or amplification of these concerns of these tech industry leaders

is being done by China or being done in some nefarious way.

Here's what the vice president had to say about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know, it's something that we're concerned by, but we want to make sure that we actually regulate

smartly and we're thoughtful about the risk here. So, there are obviously risks to A.I. There are some benefits to A.I.

I have to say just personally, I feel a little bit weird about the fact that you have so many frontier A.I. tech companies kind of coming to the

government and begging the government to regulate them. It feels a little bit to me like a bit of a Trojan horse, so I think we just have to be

careful about this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: And it's unclear exactly what he means when he says this is a little bit of a Trojan horse or it feels like a Trojan horse, but clearly

they want to continue to double down on this kind of firing at all cylinders when it comes to A.I. But the big thing to remember here is that

this is becoming a bigger and bigger political issue for this administration by the day.

And this idea that President Trump can just kind of push through it by saying it's good for Americans when Americans have growing concerns about

it, it's just not clear that this is a winning long-term argument.

[15:05:00]

MACFARLANE: Yeah, indeed. And we'll wait to see what, if anything comes out of Congress on the Hill today.

Kristen, for now, thank you very much.

Well, the CEO of OpenAI, the company behind ChatGPT, says pacing the technology's development would be worth the cost, adding that market

competition shouldn't justify recklessness. A Trump advisor is slamming what he calls doomers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID SACKS, COCHAIR, TRUMP'S COUNCIL OF ADVISORS ON SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY: If you look at the statements of Chinese officials and their A.I.

companies, they believe that A.I. is something that's very good for their economy, and they are interested in moving that forward. And they frankly

don't have these doomer groups in China pushing for a pause. So, they're not interested in a pause. And if we were to stop or pause, then I don't

think they would. And even if we could agree with them on that deal, I don't think it'd be enforceable. There'd be no way of verifying it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Wendy Hall joins me now from Milan, Italy. She is the professor of computer science and the executive director of the Web Science

Institute at the University of Southampton.

Wendy, great to have you with us.

What I find so puzzling, Wendy, in this moment is that, you know, the A.I. race had seemed so unstoppable this year until seemingly this weekend when

we had this sudden call from Dario Amodei for checks and a slowdown followed by this rare display of unity between the three A.I. leaders like

Elon Musk, Sam Altman and Amodei.

What do you make of this united front that we've seen and the timing of this?

WENDY HALL, COMPUTER SCIENCE PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHAMPTON: Well, don't forget, this all came out of the statement that was made by someone

who just left Anthropic and then by an employee in Anthropic that, you know, their A.I. system could make the human race distinct within the next

decade.

Now, that is a very frightening thing to say to people. I mean, it's Armageddon. It's like, if they really believe that they should just be

stopping doing it anyway, I mean, it's so irresponsible. And we have been arguing, people like myself, I was on the U.N. high level advisory board

for AI. Many people around the world realize that A.I., we want to be able to use it for the good, but we have to mitigate against the risk.

And this headlong race between mainly the two protagonists, OpenAI and Anthropic, because they need money. They have to go for IPO to get money.

They've got to persuade people to invest in them. So, they can't take their foot off the accelerator. That's this coming together of let's agree.

But then you do have China. Now, China's being much more responsible about the use and development of A.I. than America is. I mean, China plays a long

game and there's all sorts of reasons why we have to be very careful about working with China, but actually they are being more responsible.

And the way President Trump frames it as a race, whoever wins A.I. wins. Well, we don't want a huge monopoly in A.I. We want diversity. We want it

to be good for the whole world. We want A.I. companies all over the world that can use the models being developed in America and China safely.

And that means we need an independent authority that worries about the governance of A.I. and the countries will agree to the principles set up to

bring in regulation.

MACFARLANE: Yeah, and I want to ask you about that government structure and what that could look like in just a moment. But I mean, you kind of put

your finger on it here. I think people are feeling real whiplash at the moment over A.I. because on one hand, you've got these industry figures

telling us how much we need it. And then on the other hand, we're hearing these dire warnings like by the day now.

So how much trust should we have in these A.I. leaders to be doing the right thing?

HALL: Well, I think they act every day irresponsibly. I mean, they've been crying wolf like this for a long time. OpenAI, when they first, that was

when Elon Musk was back in the early -- back in 2016, '17, around that, before ChatGPT, OpenAI was going to release GPT-2 and they said it was too

dangerous to release. I mean, this is a long time ago, it was a much more primitive of their system.

And they've done this all the time. Anthropic's done it as well. They did it with Mythos, right? This is too dangerous to release. And then they

release -- I mean, it's like this constant scaremongering.

I'm not quite -- I don't quite understand the psychology because if I was an investor, I would not want to invest in a company that says its software

could make the human race distinct. Would you? I mean, would you? Because if I was an investor, I would not want to invest in a company that says its

software could make the human race distinct. Would you? I mean, would you, I mean, any sensible person, this is not where we want to go with this

stuff, right? We would put a stop to it now.

And of course, if you do talk about a pause in development, then that's got to include China as well. And that's what the statement from China was very

balanced because it was saying we should cooperate to think about what we're trying to do here and agree the principles under which we take the

development forward.

MACFARLANE: Yes, and on that point, Wendy, I mean, I know you are an advisor to the U.K. government and other governments and companies around

the world. How realistic is that call for global coordination over regulations between, I think it was outlined as democratic and adversarial

countries, given, in your view, China are acting quite responsibly here?

HALL: They are now. I mean, you know, President Trump says, well, we're way ahead of China. They're not way ahead of China. China has got some

amazing companies and the -- and software and most of it is open as well.

Now that can have dangers. I mean, if you -- if your systems are open, that means the bad actors can use it like, but the -- they are much more open

about what they're doing. And I think that for a long time now, we can we see that the end game in this has to be China and America sitting around

and say with all the other countries, which is why the U.N. has to play a part in convening all this, even though it might not run the independent

authority, it has to play a part in convening it. And that's what they're trying to do with the global dialogue that came out of the report, the body

I was on.

People are calling for this, and the end game has to be just as it was in the Cold War. I mean, you're probably far too young to remember I was a

child in the Cold War and we all thought we were going to be bombed to smithereens by a Russian nuclear bomb. And it took some very some really

good, you know, it was -- it was Gorbachev and Reagan and Maggie Thatcher was involved in it who actually agreed principles which we have stuck to.

It's a different type of regulation. It's -- obviously, it's much harder to build a nuclear bomb than it is an A.I. system, actually, I think. But the

-- it's that sort of -- it's that sort of leadership we need from the people that run our countries.

But -- I mean, it's a bit like there weren't many places building nuclear bombs back in the '50s. We've only really, the only countries building the

biggest, the big LLMs are America and China. There are other countries building small language models.

And they're also -- I mean, there's a lot of countries, the U.K. is incredibly good at auditing, at evaluating, at testing. We have the best

security institute, A.I. security institute in the world. And, you know, we can lead with other --

MACFARLANE: Yes. Well, you're saying, but as you're saying, I mean, it's the U.S. and the China really who take the lead here. And we'll wait to see

if such a collaboration occurs given Donald Trump's comments today.

Wendy, fantastic to have your insights.

HALL: It's interesting.

MACFARLANE: We're going to have to leave it there.

HALL: President Xi, he's in Washington next week.

MACFARLANE: He is, indeed. Yeah, we'll watch very closely for Xi's visit. Thanks so much, Wendy.

All right. Coming up, Donald Trump receives a mixed reaction in Ireland, but it's his comments on Irish unification that is making waves. The

details on that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:54]

MACFARLANE: U.S. President Donald Trump is doubling down on his comments in favor of Irish unification. While visiting the Irish Open golf

tournament over the weekend, the president waded into a sensitive topic. He said the unification of Ireland and Northern Ireland seemed like a natural

and fantastic thing, but also said it didn't want to cause any trouble.

The U.K.'s new prime minister, Andy Burnham, has said a referendum in Northern Ireland is not on the horizon. Island's Taoiseach responded to Mr.

Trump's comments on Sunday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHEAL MARTIN, IRELAND'S TAOISEACH: The president's remarks were not a particular surprise to me because I don't know whether some of you were

with me in the luncheon in Capitol Hill and Patrick's Day, and the previous year actually as well when he spoke to some DUP members at that luncheon

and asked, you know, was the merger on the card. So, he looks back and even at lunch, he would make the point This is his view. He believes unity is a

logical way for the island to be configured and organized.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: So, what we want to know is how will Trump's unification comments be received in Ireland?

Well, joining me now is Leo Varadkar, the former Irish Taoiseach.

Thank you so much for joining us this evening.

LEO VARADKAR, FORMER IRISH TAOISEACH: Thank you.

MACFARLANE: We heard there Micheal Martin saying he wasn't surprised to hear these comments by the U.S. president, because this is known to be his

view. But it certainly surprised a lot of other people. What did you make of the comments?

VARADKAR: Yeah, well, I guess I wasn't surprised either, because even as far back as 2017, 2018, when I was meeting him as taoiseach, as prime

minister, he had expressed this view that he thought it was the logical thing that Ireland will be unified at some point. I think it's just that he

said it in a very public way on this occasion and perhaps people weren't aware that was his view.

I think it is important to point out though that we have the Good Friday Agreement, the agreement that brought peace to Ireland back in 1997. And

that says very clearly that a decision on unification is one for the Irish people, for people north and south voting for it.

So -- outside opinions are, of course, always allowed and sometimes welcome. But ultimately, this is a matter for us to decide.

MACFARLANE: Yes. And you're right to say that you were Taoiseach during his last visit to Ireland in 2019. So, of course, you've seen up close how

he operates.

I was interested to read in an interview you gave a couple of months ago about meeting with him. You said that while he's an intelligent man and

nobody should underestimate him, he is not knowledgeable. So, I wonder, in light of that, how seriously the Irish people should take his comments

about unification.

VARADKAR: Yeah, look, I don't think he would have a detailed understanding of the Constitution of Ireland or some of the complications and

difficulties that would arise from unification. But like I say, ultimately, it's a decision for us to make. And what the Good Friday Agreement says is

that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who's a British minister, has to call a vote if it looks likely that it would pass, but that's not

the case at the moment.

[15:20:07]

Polls don't indicate that there's a majority of unification in Northern Ireland. There is in the Republic. So, there's a lot of work to be done to

define the model, to be able to answer people's questions before we can put it to a vote. And I'd be very much of the view that we should only go for

that vote, go for that border poll, as they call it, when we're confident it can pass. Because if it doesn't pass, it'll be divisive and nothing will

be achieved as a result.

MACFARLANE: Yeah. And so, it sounds like you're agreeing with the U.K. Prime Minister Andy Burnham, who, of course, came out two weeks ago and

said he believed there was not enough support to trigger this referendum right now.

But is it helpful to be reopening this debate right now in light of the sentence?

VARADKAR: I think it would be helpful -- I think what would be helpful would be for the British and Irish governments and the parties in Northern

Ireland to have a discussion on the criteria for a referendum because the Good Friday Agreement is deliberately vague about that. It uses the term

likely, but it doesn't define what likely means.

Also, who would have a vote, for example, and what the question would be. So, I think it would be useful for the governments and the parties to come

together around that in terms of views from America or views from the American president. They're broadly welcome. They're allowed.

The U.S. has always taken an interest in Irish affairs, was the first non- Commonwealth country to recognize her independence. Bill Clinton was very involved in getting the Good Friday Agreement across the line in the first

place. But ultimately, this is a decision for us.

So, while views and opinions are always welcome from other parts of Europe or the U.S. or the rest of the world, this is really our affair to decide

on.

MACFARLANE: Yeah. And Mr. Varadkar, I have to ask you about an interview you gave in July to Colette Fitzpatrick. I just want to show of you a bit

of what you said. You said that the president -- this was on meeting him, of course, as you previously did in 2019 -- the president is a very strange

combination of somebody who's quite bright, manipulative, knows how to push buttons, yet at the same time, he has very little knowledge of how the

world or anything works, and that's a very strange combination, and I think quite a dangerous one.

Was there something that prompted you to say that in July?

VARADKAR: Nothing in particular, no. I think that was just an interview in around my book tour. So, I would have written about my various meetings

with President Trump down the years in that book. And as you can imagine, people are always curious to know what he's like in person and how he

operates.

MACFARLANE: Yes, and I think people are very curious to know, in light of that comment, how the current A.I. debate might be playing out, given how

much concern there is over A.I. development right now.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to ask you about that. But we appreciate you coming on, Mr. Varadkar.

VARADKAR: No, thank you.

MACFARLANE: -- giving your thoughts on what we've seen from the president over the weekend.

Okay, coming up, the A.I. debate comes to Washington. Donald Trump says he knows the secret to controlling A.I. growth. Well, we'll tell you about his

plan when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:26:42]

MACFARLANE: Welcome back.

We want to take a closer look now at our top story, the escalating concerns about A.I. and questions about how to control it. CNN has learned that

three of the biggest A.I. companies are discussing creating their own body to govern the industry. Google, OpenAI, and Anthropic are looking at

creating a testing agency that would verify the safety of any A.I. model before it was deployed.

CNN's Anderson Cooper spoke to the CEO of Anthropic about the changes he wants to see to ensure A.I. is safer for all mankind.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DARIO AMODEI, CEO OF ANTHROPIC: At the end of the day, the industry has to work together, and it's harder. But to some extent, the world has to work

together. If we go too slow, I still believe that the wrong people will be in charge of the technology. And, you know, that, again, will bring the

probability of things going wrong very high.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: So, what you're proposing is called pacing the frontier of the A.I. industry. And you write, we must slow the pace at

which we improve the capabilities of A.I. models. Progress will seem fast, and we must make wise use of the time we gain. And there's three parts to

this. One is embedded evaluators. Part two is democratic coordination, and part three is global coordination.

Sam Altman at OpenAI just endorsed the idea of embedded evaluators. Essentially, you are suggesting I don't know if -- are they observers

inside your company and these other A.I. companies ideally globally but certainly in the U.S. who would monitor it, they would have employee

access? What power would they have?

AMODEI: Yeah. So before I even get to that, I'm just -- I'm very grateful to see you know support for this proposal just in the first few hours of

having put it out by Sam Altman, by Elon Musk by -- you know, various legislators and government officials. I think it's a positive sign about,

you know, our ability to make something that looks like this plan work.

But to get to your question, yeah, embedded evaluators. So, there is precedent for this. If you look at how banks are regulated, right, there's

all kinds of, you know, there's all kinds of rules about, you know, how banks are allowed to do their business, because we don't want to have

financial crises. And one of the things that are done in some cases is I think they're called supervisors in the financial industry, but they're

folks who are independent of a company, who are embedded in the company day-to-day to check their practices. And I think we can do the same thing

in -- I think we can do the same thing in AI.

COOPER: The other thing you are calling for in this three-part proposal is democratic coordination, which is essentially democracy, all the companies

that are under democracies having these evaluators, having this coordination. And probably the most important, because the argument is,

well, if the US companies are the only ones regulating themselves, what about does China get ahead? You're calling for global coordination. That's

obviously a lot more difficult.

AMODEI: Yes, yes. I -- you know, in this three-step proposal, each step is more difficult than the one before, and Anthropic was kind of getting the

ball rolling by committing to the first step. But we shouldn't kid ourselves that these next two steps are going to be more difficult, and we

may not succeed.

[15:30:05]

And so, my proposal is a proposal that we should try.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Democrats in Washington are pushing for a slowdown in A.I. development. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer today called for a

classified briefing between the White House and the Senate to talk about developing an A.I. framework. His Democratic colleagues say the time has

come for Congress to act.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: We should take decisive action now so that we can slow down, as the CEOs have recently

acknowledged, slow down the pace of development in order to protect the American people and ensure that A.I. is proceeding safely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Well, our Annie Grayer is on Capitol Hill following the A.I. developments there.

And, Annie, look, we know that there has been a congressional inaction on A.I. for years. So, what can they achieve, do you think, just before the

midterms?

ANNIE GRAYER, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Well, there's certainly a lot of attention on this issue, but in terms of what lawmakers can actually get

done, that is an open-ended question and one of the biggest things that they're going to be up against is the calendar. The House is only in

session this week and that is the only time they're in session until after the November midterm elections. The Senate has three weeks of session, but

still that is not enough time to pass any of the meaningful reforms that the A.I. executives and the public are calling for and demanding.

So, now, there are a lot of internal discussions happening on both sides of the aisle on how to respond to this. Democrats want to be aggressive in

trying to push Republicans to take a firm position on this. Democrats are pushing House Speaker Mike Johnson to change the House schedule and keep

lawmakers in session longer. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer wants a classified briefing for all senators and Hakeem Jeffries, who's the top

Democrat in the House, wants Democrats to formulate more substantial legislative priorities around this.

But meanwhile, House Speaker Mike Johnson says he doesn't want Congress to take immediate action here. And he says the concern is that if Congress

steps in and tries to overregulate the situation, it could prevent businesses from excelling and really prevent the U.S. from succeeding in

the race with China, where lawmakers feel comfortable with the position the U.S. is in now, in part because they're hasn't been as much regulation.

So, the approach that Johnson is taking is that he really wants business leaders and stakeholders in the industry to lead in terms of what sort of

policy changes need to be made or what sort of regulations need to be put in place. So, he's going to be meeting with those executives either at the

end of this week or early next week. He just told us as he tries to sort of formulate a plan.

But this is going to be a huge messaging war on both sides of the aisle in the lead up to the midterms as voters are now acutely aware of this problem

as the people who are working at these companies, the top leaders are raising alarm bells. And just to show you how politically complicated this

issue is. There's a conference in D.C. tomorrow about A.I. and the regulations that need to take place, and you have people like Vermont

Senator Bernie Sanders, a liberal progressive on one side, and Steve Bannon, a right-wing Trump ally on the other side, both attending and

speaking at this conference.

So, there is a lot to unpack here. Lawmakers are now aware of how much -- how much the spotlight is on them to try and do something, but there's also

a lot of concern that maybe Congress isn't up to this task doesn't have the tools to step in to immediately regulate. Such a complicated authority

issue that really crosses so many businesses and sectors.

MACFARLANE: Yeah, a lot to watch in this moment, not least the events there tomorrow.

Annie Grayer, for now, thank you very much.

And we are in the final moments of trade on Wall Street, and unsurprisingly, stocks are pretty flat today. The Dow Jones recovering from

earlier losses as investors remain cautious after those warnings from A.I. companies.

This is our Business Breakout.

Amazon is pausing operations with Miami-based 21 Air, the operator of last week's cargo plane crash. The aircraft overran the runway when landing at

Miami International Airport, killing five people. Amazon said it will continue to support the investigation.

Efforts by the U.S. Treasury Secretary to ease concerns in the U.S. bond market don't appear to be working. The 10-year Treasury yield hit the

critical threshold of 5 percent today, which has only happened once since 2007, could mean higher costs for Americans wanting to borrow money.

Britain's King Charles is taking note of fears around rapidly developing A.I. The King will host leaders of major A.I. companies this week to talk

about how A.I. can be used to benefit society. King Charles is expected to host leaders from Nvidia, Google, DeepMind, OpenAI and Anthropic.

[15:35:00]

Global oil prices have continued to rise as hostilities in the Middle East show no signs of letting up. Brent crude, the global benchmark, hovering at

around $105 a barrel. Earlier it was as high as $107. This after planned talks between Iran and Gulf countries the Strait of Hormuz were postponed.

All right. Coming up, Swedes go to the polls. Will voters push the new government to the far right like other European countries? The latest on

Sweden's election results ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACFARLANE: Welcome back.

Officials in Kyiv say a Russian drone strike on a passenger train was quite likely a targeted attack. The strike was launched shortly after a separate

train carrying former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson and others had left the station. Former CIA director David Petraeus was actually still at

the station when the strike happened. NATO's secretary general had his direct message for Russian President Vladimir Putin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK RUTTE, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: Russia is struggling in Ukraine and continues to lash out with reckless and dangerous attacks, including on

civilian infrastructure close to NATO territory. The strike on a passenger train in Ukraine yesterday shows how desperate Putin has become. He thinks

that he can stop us from supporting Ukraine and that he can undermine our unity.

He is wrong. Our answer is to increase support to Ukraine so it has what it needs to defend itself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: CNN's Clare Sebastian has been tracking the developments and has this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's an extraordinary moment. You know, foreign dignitaries and leaders have traveled in and out of Ukraine

throughout this war, and there have been sort of a few close calls before. But look, Ukrainian railways have come right out and said that at the very

moment this attack happened, David Petraeus, the former CIA director, was on a train, on another train in this station not the train that was hit.

[15:40:09]

But he then told "The Financial Times" that he had to evacuate his train, so he was extremely close by. Not only that, but shortly before the strike,

another train had departed that station and crossed over the border into Poland, and that was carrying former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson,

as well as other European officials. They had all been attending a major security conference in Kyiv over the weekend.

So, this could have been very different. It could have been a major international if Ukrainian railways are right about this. And I think,

look, in the context of the broader escalation that we're seeing from Russia in terms of air attacks, it's yet more evidence that the target list

has broadened with it.

European officials are coming out today and saying, look, this was a message intended to frighten us, and it will not work. So coming out

swinging.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACFARLANE: Clare Sebastian there.

Now, an American airman shot down in Iran in April is speaking publicly for the first time about his harrowing escape and rescue. In an interview with

CBS "60 Minutes", the weapons system officer, identified only by his call sign "Bravo", described his ordeal.

CNN's Brian Stelter reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: The U.S. military sharing new video and new detail about that rescue mission that ensued after an F-15

was shot down over Iran back in April. The American airman who spent 50 hours behind enemy lines spoke for the first time in an interview that

aired on the CBS news magazine "60 Minutes".

The man was identified by his mission call sign, "Bravo". He said his parachute was damaged in the attack, so he basically free fell out of the

sky, and the fall broke his back and arm and a shoulder.

Correspondent Norah O'Donnell asked how he mustered the strength to hike up a 7,000-foot ridge and contact the U.S. military.

NORAH O'DONNELL, CBS CORRESPONDENT: Given your injuries, how did you find the strength to make it up the mountain?

"BRAVO", RESCUED WEAPONS SYSTEMS OFFICER: Never let a lack of motivation put you on Iranian TV.

O'DONNELL: You were thinking that?

"BRAVO": Absolutely.

STELTER: Now, this interview was a big deal for the Pentagon and for Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth personally. Sources tell CNN that Hegseth

and political appointees in his office pushed for both crew members who were aboard the F-15 to give interviews and to tell their stories. Both

airmen initially expressed reservations about doing so. But after meeting with Hegseth, one of them agreed to go on camera.

For the "60 Minutes" broadcast, the military also declassified some of this video, showing the moment when elite Air Force pararescue operators arrived

to rescue Bravo.

Here's more of what he told CBS.

"BRAVO": This is not a story about what I went through. Instead, it's a story of the teamwork, the training, of the faith, of the decisions, the

leadership to do something that will live in history as an example of what America is willing to do in order to uphold our promise and leave no man

behind.

STELTER: Now that is a powerful message and it's understandably one that Hegseth would want to have out there given the political undercurrents that

he has been up against.

The U.S. war in Iran has become as unpopular as past U.S. actions in Iraq and Vietnam. Poll after poll shows that most Americans do not believe the

war is worth fighting. So Hegseth has been trying to come up with ways to push back against that and to change public perceptions. Sources told CNN

that he wanted the April rescue mission to be shared and dramatically recounted for the public.

And that's what happened on Sunday night on the most watched news program on U.S. TV. It was a big moment for CBS News as well, coming three months

after CBS News editor-in-chief Bari Weiss basically overhauled all of "60 Minutes", firing several of the top producers and correspondents. Weiss has

been rebuilding the program, and she's been under pressure to prove that 60 Minutes can still land big exclusive interviews.

So, for Sunday night's season premiere, she certainly showed that the program is still capable of doing so.

Brian Selter, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACFARLANE: Now it appears Sweden may be bucking a Europe-wide trend of government shifting to the right. Preliminary results in the country's

election project a lead for the centre-left opposition. Now if the results hold, the new government would be expected to be pro-Western and would

likely be supportive of Ukraine. Immigration played a major role in the hotly contested vote.

So, what we don't know is what is at stake for Sweden following tight election results?

Joining me now Christina Andersen, a freelance correspondent for "The New York Times" in Sweden.

Thank you for your time.

So, look, there are several scenarios at this juncture in which this could play out.

[15:45:01]

And let's start, I think, with the center-left party's rise, because if the current results are correct, they could and will squeak, I think, a narrow

win. So, what does that mean for the return to policies of the past, like open door immigration policies, for instance?

CHRISTINA ANDERSON, FREELANCE CORRESPONDENT, NEW YORK TIMES: Well, I mean, I think there's going to be more of a change in emphasis rather than a

dramatic reversal of the last year's policies. They have campaigned on more traditional Nordic welfare state issues, including healthcare and schools

and education. But I don't think we're going to see any big reversal of the migration policies that the center-right government have implemented over

the last four years, or criminal justice policies.

MACFARLANE: But even if -- okay. Even if Magdalena Andersson's Social Democrat Party wins, though, the Sweden Democrats still remain very popular

and were behind some of Europe's strictest migration rules. Do you expect any change in message from them, perhaps sort of moderation of their sort

of fiery rhetoric towards immigration?

ANDERSON: I mean, it's hard to say. The Sweden Democrats, they have -- I mean, although they've done their worst election so far since they entered

parliament in 2010, they still are the third largest party with 18 percent of the vote. They have -- they have managed to implement these sweeping

shifts and migration policy and criminal justice.

So that has been-- it's also sort of moved the center left to the right on these policies generally. So, whether or not they're going to soften their

rhetoric around these issues is hard to say. I think that that conversation is going to be held inside the Sweden Democrats.

MACFARLANE: Yeah, and it's still playing out, isn't it? I mean, it's still early days in many ways.

I mean, Anderson is yet to say how she would unite a divided center left coalition behind her, and it could well be a very complicated process. What

do you think are going to be the main challenges in achieving a coalition?

ANDERSON: I mean, the biggest challenge is for her to get these four parties to work together and support her government. We have the center

party and the left party. They both are saying the center party isn't going to support a government that includes the left. And the left is insisting

on being part of the government this year. They both have, you know, increased their mandate.

So, it's going to be quite a dance for Magdalena Andersson to find a way forward. And it could take some time.

MACFARLANE: Yeah. It could be many months, right? The last time, I believe, it took many months to form a government. We might be looking at

Christmas --

ANDERSON: It did last time it took 131 days. That was in 2018. It took 131 days. They--

MACFARLANE: Well, we'll see if it --

ANDERSON: It didn't require an extra election, which they don't think -- I'm hearing that they're not expecting that to happen this time either, but

it's not completely ruled out.

MACFARLANE: OK, well, we will wait, hopefully not 139 days and see where this goes.

Christina, thank you so much for your time.

All right, still to come, the icon who promised us her heart will go on, kicks off her comeback tour in Paris. See how fans have welcomed back

Celine Dion.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:51:39]

MACFARLANE: Hollywood is set to honor the best in television tonight. The Emmy Awards are just hours away. And in the drama category, the most

nominated show is last year's big winner, "The Pit". But it faces stiff competition from the brand-new alien invasion show "Pluribus".

In comedy, the final season of HBO Hacks is taking on Apple TV's horror comedy "Widow's Bay", which just had its debut season.

Now it's the comeback tour, and Celine Dion fans have been waiting for years. The superstar kicked off her sold-out residency in Paris over the

weekend.

Melissa Bell tells us what it was like.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MELISSA BELL, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Celine Dion fever has hit Paris hard. Ahead of the Canadian superstar's first

concert in six years, a giant karaoke was organized over the weekend, full of the songs that the French know by heart.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For me, it's like, it's all what Paris is about, just gathering people in open spaces and having a moment together, singing

together.

BELL (voice-over): The hotel that will serve as Celine's base throughout her 26-concert residency turned into a place of daily worship for her fans.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): It's not every day that we get to see Celine Dion up close like this, so this is amazing.

BELL (voice-over): With more than 200 million records sold, Celine Dion is the biggest-selling Canadian artist of all times and, in the French-

speaking world, an icon. But a rare neurological disorder had forced her to cancel her last tour.

BELL: Which is why her first performance here on Saturday night was so keenly awaited. I was lucky enough to be inside, and the emotion was

unbelievable. It was a performance full of energy with that tremendous voice of hers. But she could feel at the end of her first song the emotion

of the crowd, and she then started crying, really struggling for a moment to regain her composure.

For that moment, there really wasn't a dry eye in the house.

BELL (voice-over): It's expected that, overall, Celine fever could bring as much as a billion dollars of revenue to the French economy. Nine million

fans joined a lottery for access to tickets, and all of her shows were sold out in a matter of hours.

And for those fans who didn't get a ticket, there are still those daily hopes outside her hotel for a glimpse, a smile, and even a kiss from the

star who's finally returned to them.

Melissa Bell, CNN, Paris.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACFARLANE: I have to say, I'm so jealous of all those who managed to get a ticket. Doesn't she look fabulous? I love it.

Now, the Kennedy Center officials are sounding the alarm claiming the arts venue could face certain fiscal collapse unless U.S. President Donald

Trump's name returns to its facade. That's according to documents included in a court filing. Two draft resolutions concerning plans to close the

Kennedy Center and re-add President Trump's name outside the building are expected to be voted on by the institution's board of trustees on Tuesday.

The documents were originally obtained and reported on by "The New York Times" and "The Washington Post".

And science fiction or space exploration? Advocates have long dreamed of building cities on the moon.

[15:55:03]

But a new study says that's just not possible. A paper published in "Frontiers in Space Technologies" says there simply isn't enough water on

the moon to support a large human settlement. The paper says that efficient recycling, the ice that has been found in craters on the moon, could

support a village of about 10,000 colonists, but not a large city of a million people or more.

And finally tonight, a big happy birthday to Pope Leo. The leader of the Roman Catholic Church turned 71 on Monday. He celebrated, as you can see

here, with cake as a crowd at the Vatican Library sang happy birthday to him. The U.S.-born pope also spent the day unveiling a new art exhibition

there. Many happy returns.

And that is it for us. I'm Christina McFarlane, and this is WHAT WE KNOW.

Stay with CNN. There's more coming up after this break.

END

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